Cost of racing versus DEs versus LeMons

[Evergreen Dan]

I'm trying to figure out how many weekends I could afford to club race if I were to start, compared to how many DE's / Lemons races I can do.

I figure a Lemons race costs about $500-$600 for about 4 hours of racing over 2-3 days. This includes everything except motel, food, and initial purchase of car (but covers basic car consumables and maintenance). Initial car purchase was about $600 more for the first race.

If I instruct (no entry fee), a weekend HPDE costs maybe $400-$500 for my E36 M Coupe. Add $400 for entry fees if not instructing. In addition, there is risk to my daily driver (I suppose you could add the cost of track insurace for its replacement cost.)

So, how expensive is racing:

What is the cheapest BMWCCA CR class that has competition in the Northeast? (KP? SE36?)

What does it cost for a race weekend, exclusive of motel & food, but counting entry fees, gas, tow gas, pads, tires, maintenance items, other consumables, budgeting for engine rebuilds, collision damage, etc.?

Same for SCCA: Cheapest class (SSM/SM?) What's a weekend cost?

Now, if I don't have room for a tow vehicle and trailer, how much do I have to add per weekend for arrive-and-drive? (No support other than transport; I own the car (don't rent))

Thanks for any help / guidance. I don't want to get into something that I can't afford.

[bheumann]

I don't have any experience with the Lemons but just comparing the cost of the other two (DE vs. Club Racing) is almost impossible. The first question you have to answer is what to expect from racing. If you plan to race to win your class, and it is a competitive class, it is a far different cost than racing for fun with whoever is in front of you and behind you. I have known racers of both types that truly having a good time. The entry fees for racing are not much different than for a student at a DE so figure $400 there. If you want to win in a competitive class, then your costs will be the lowest in one of the Spec classes where the costs are lower and advantages of spending are less. Having said that, racing ends up being much more expensive than DE's for almost everyone. How much more is the real question

For example, in the prepared classes, most are running Hankook or Hoosier tires. They get different lives out of them but if you want to win, you might choose to have a really fresh set for qualifying and a pretty fresh set for each race. The money in tires (and wheels) makes the entry fees look trivial. Almost every racer, who is racing to win in prepared goes through an average of a set of tires, or more, per weekend. I go through maybe a set of front race pads every two weekends, rears every four, front rotors every two or three. Motul, or better, brake fluid flush between each event, etc, etc.

For all race cars, you will not be driving too and from the track in the car in all likelihood= trailer and tow vehicle, etc...

When I got into this someone told me that racing was 10x the cost for twice the fun. I'd say it is more like 10x cost at 5x the fun for me. Most of the racers I know (including me) don't really analyze the cost fully and honestly., because they have decided they don't really want to know how much they spending!

If you decide to race, finding the right balance for you is the goal. If you are really concerned about $, then definitely pick one of the spec classes. Good competition and not obscene amounts of money. You should be warned that once you start racing, it is pretty addictive and DE's aren't as much fun again after racing for most.

[DBurke]

Renting SM/SSM is the cheapest way to go racing from an initial cash outlay standpoint. It will cost you $800-$1200 plus entry fee per event in the northeast in a car that is competitive. Arrive and drive, show up with your gear. You bend it, you mend it.

The drag with SCCA is this. In a one day regional its only one race, 15-25 minute qual in the AM, then a 15 lap race in the PM. Thanks, here's your coffee mug, bye. If you plan on racing 5 times a year, its worth it to buy good built a SM for $12-17k and have someone prep/transport it for you.

BMWCCA gives you a lot more racing for your dollar, usually a couple sprints, an enduro, lots of race time. You have to be willing to travel though. I plan on supplementing my BMW schedule in 2010 with SCCA regionals. For example, I hope to be in Atlanta in Feb and VIR in April to get started, likely attend the CR school at Mid-O between the two for the seat time. I live in CT and the closest races will be at NJMP. Is the travel worth it? Absolutely.

If you want to buy a car there are a few really good prepared cars available right now across the country at very fair prices. Don't build. I've done it twice. I converted a "track car" and built from a bare shell. Buy something built and develop it. Seriously. The northeast has a ton of IP cars, they all just need to come out and play the same day and it will be awesome.

One last thing. Don't ever try to make sense out of the dollars and cents of it. If you do that, you won't ever be racing. Racers always figure out how to race.

[JClark]

How bad do you want to win?

Serious question.

[not2quick]

A race weekend doesnt cost me too much more than a DE weekend on average because i'm a cheap-ass. I do 4 race weekends a year and 1 DE on 1 set of tires(BFG R1), and use the previous seasons tires for practice. But by the end of the year im running on 40 something heat cycled tires wondering why my times are a second slower than in spring. Its a slow underpowered (J-unprepared) car that doesnt really were out parts as quickly as the fast cars so its reletively cheap compared to most other racers.
I think the faster you go and the more you want to win in your class, the more you will need to spend on fresh tires, brake pads, and broken/bent/damaged parts. Even if its not a super fast car, to be competitive within your class, it will cost more and more money.(mostly in fresh tires every weekend)
At a DE weekend there will be less risk of vehicle damage, and it doesnt really matter as much if your tires have cycled out and are slower.

Whats cheaper? I guess it depends on your competitiveness and your competitions lap times. If you need more from your equipment, it will cost you. Just be ready, once you race, i dont see how you can ever stop racing or even go back to DE's.

I think i'll be poor forever because of racing... but its so worth it

[ddavidv]

I think the cost of doing a DE vs W2W racing is about the same. Entry fees are pretty similar and wear and tear isn't much different aside from the larger risk of damage. The cost of safety gear for racing, however, is a big deterrent and slowed my progression for about a year (HANS, etc). Once it's purchased, however, you're usually pretty much done for awhile.

You can DE a regular car but you'll need a full cage "built" vehicle for racing.

BMWCCA schedules can be limited depending on where you live. SCCA has no BMW specific classes. You should also look at NASA...both Spec E30 and Spec 3 classes are doing very well and are probably less expensive builds than BMWCCA (marginally) as they allow fewer modifications.

Lemons I just can't take seriously. The cartoon aspects of it just don't appeal to me and I go to the track to race, not keep a piece of crap running for another half hour.

[Evergreen Dan]

How bad do you want to win?

Super good guestion. I don't have aspirations of winning, but then I bet a lot of rookies say that. I think I'd be happy so long as I have cars to battle with.

Lemons I just can't take seriously. The cartoon aspects of it just don't appeal to me and I go to the track to race, not keep a piece of crap running for another half hour.

Not here to defend LeMons, but lots of club racers and even pros (Formula BMW, NASCAR Mexico, Grand Am I think) are digging it. My former teammate raced SCCA for a while and said that in one LeMons race he had more close passing/defending than he did in his entire SCCA career. With 50-150 cars on track, there's a ton of action. Of course, I've never club raced, so I can't speak first hand. You might like ChumpCar if the cartoon aspect doesn't appeal. Lemons is also 4-6 hours of race time per driver, including perhaps at night on an unlit track. You can control the mechanical aspects by bringing a reliable, well-prepared car.

A downside of LeMons is that you don't control your own destiny as much: teammates' driving/decisions, other cars giving you penalties, judges assigning penalty laps, etc. In particular, you have to assume that the other drivers don't see you and even if they do may not be able to avoid hitting you.

[kishg]

Lemons I just can't take seriously. The cartoon aspects of it just don't appeal to me and I go to the track to race, not keep a piece of crap running for another half hour.

try it before you pass judgement on it. it's a crapload of fun..

[jcrist]

Most of the racers I know (including me) don't really analyze the cost fully and honestly., because they have decided they don't really want to know how much they spending!

Amen brother

I know the KP guys have a load of fun for a lot less, I would vote for that class as a possible "Most Cost Effective"

What may have already been mentioned is that wheel to wheel racing is so much more fun than HPDE, it's almost like a different experience all together.

Not here to defend LeMons, but lots of club racers and even pros (Formula BMW, NASCAR Mexico, Grand Am I think) are digging it. My former teammate raced SCCA for a while and said that in one LeMons race he had more close passing/defending than he did in his entire SCCA career. With 50-150 cars on track, there's a ton of action. Of course, I've never club raced, so I can't speak first hand. You might like ChumpCar if the cartoon aspect doesn't appeal. Lemons is also 4-6 hours of race time per driver, including perhaps at night on an unlit track. You can control the mechanical aspects by bringing a reliable, well-prepared car.

A downside of LeMons is that you don't control your own destiny as much: teammates' driving/decisions, other cars giving you penalties, judges assigning penalty laps, etc. In particular, you have to assume that the other drivers don't see you and even if they do may not be able to avoid hitting you.

The bad part about Lemons is that you really can't expect your car to run all day. Most people spend 90% of their time trying to make such a piece of shiite run. That's not fun. I'm just not that glutton for punishment. I've done it and it was fun, but not something I would commit myself for a season to do therefore not what I would consider an equal choice to DE or Club Racing.

[JClark]

Super good guestion. I don't have aspirations of winning, but then I bet a lot of rookies say that. I think I'd be happy so long as I have cars to battle with.

If you dont up your game (+$), the guys you're battling with eventually will. I'd pick a class where you'd be comfortable with the costs of running up front because if you have a single competitive bone in your body, you'll be there faster than you think.

If you do that, SCCA SM or Spec E30 or something is your best bet. BMWCCA CR doesnt have any real cheap classes. Even Spec E36 has a $1000/set spec tire that you get 1.5 weekends out of.

And definitely buy, dont build.

[jcrist]

And definitely buy, dont build.

now THAT is real advice

[Flying Arrow]

Most of the racers I know (including me) don't really analyze the cost fully and honestly., because they have decided they don't really want to know how much they spending!

AMEN.

We don't talk about this. Except under pseudonyms...

Though I'm with Bill on the fun factor. The "comotional quotient" = cost per emotion displacement (high and low) is second to none....

And when I do rationally think about the cost I simply think about what a membership would cost to a great golf club. And I hate golf.

[Evergreen Dan]

The bad part about Lemons is that you really can't expect your car to run all day.

We do. Our 528e's been absolutely solid. Reliability is largely within your control via car selection and prep. If you pick a high-strung, fast car, expect problems.

Back on topic, I'm hearing that SM/SSM SCCA might be the cheapest/best option for club racing for my limited budget. Setting the car/trailer/tow apart, what would a race weekend cost and how much track time would I get? Please consider fees, tow gas, gas, tires, brakes, routine maintenance items, consumables, etc. Just an estimate would be very helpful. Then does anyone know what an arrive-and-drive delivery service would add to that, assuming I own the car?

Thanks for the other advice. I was not planning on building. I am a bit competitive, so I can see that "competition creep" might be a problem for me.

[JClark]

Cant help you with a realistic budget, but before you make any big decisions considering renting to figure it out. SCDA rents their competitive SMs out at any race in the northeast. If all their cars are spoken for, there's Flatout Motorsports too.

[BobWright]

If you search Danny Boy....you will find my racing budget thread .....I did this last year and to my surprise....people still talk to me

The "B" word ( budget) is a carefully guarded secret in this game....careers and marriages are at stake here and there are more secret charge cards out there than you can believe.

Start with a race school or three and rent D Burke or Chris's car a couple times and get a real feel for this game. It can be very different than DE....for instance....you pick a Prepared Class and you will need to be a suspension expert whether you want to or not...and will spend a lot more time under your car during the weekend than you probably do now. If I had it to do all over again, I would go Spec e36, as my old bones would rather hang out and socialize....than try and determine the proper rebound adjustment.....but...I gotta try and learn for now

[HabberstadChris]

BMWCCA Club Racing has the most track time for entry fee dollar, bar-none. NASA is close, but I believe there is more track time available during a CCA event. SCCA entry fees are about the same, with less than half the available track time (single race weekend is ~20 minute qualifier and a ~20 minute race). Same for most vintage organizations. If you want to race a BMW, CCA is the most cost-effective organization with regard to time on track.

That said, the closest you will get to operating costs when compared to SM/SSM is a SpecE36 - and the E36 will cost a little more. IMO, engines are about equal in terms of run-time hours between rebuilds. Tires will cost more on the BMW, but they are bigger. You "can" go longer than 1.5 weekends on a set of R1s. But, if you want to maintain any edge with your rubber, this holds true for both cars. The BMW will also consume a few more gallons of fuel per weekend.

It should really be about racing what you "want" to race in a most cost-effective manner, rather than just "racing" for the least amount of money possible. There are, IMO, intangibles that cost money when you are happy racing what you "want" to race.

[JulianK8Z]

Unbeknown to me, my wife started keeping track of racing expenses as she saw them come in on the credit cards. (Hint: find a way to use a slush fund)

She said that this year it has been our second highest expense category, second only to our mortgage. Ouch. Granted, there's been a lot of work done on the car.

I've found racing to be a lot more expensive than DE's. DE's I can do for free by instructing, and I could care less what tires I'm on. Paying more for a faster tire that you only really get 8-12 useful heat cycles out of can add up.

Plus, I've found that I will travel more for races. Not much motivation to tow 4-8 hours for a DE, unless it's to learn a track I've not been on.

Others have nailed it... racing is WAY more fun than DE's... and it's hard to go back.

[Niles Patel]

I'm psuedo budget conscious heading into next season and I know it comes up all the time, but are you guys getting more reasonably "competitive" cycles out of the hankooks than the hoosiers still? I was thinking I could do two sets, with two sets fo wheels, and it would last me 4-5 weekends.

[jknopp44]

If you do buy an already built car make sure you do plenty of research before hand in terms of what you really want, and in what class your car will ultimately run in. I did not do that, and I have spent a ton of money making the car more competitive.

[JS154]

This has flown around in nthe past, also on the CR Sig...excluding car build/acquisition and engine rebuilds/car repairs...it generally comes down to about $2K-$3k per weekend I think for most people.

(incl. Food, fuel. tolls, lodging, entry, tires, pads/rotors/oil changes)

you can certainly do a race weekend for less than $2k average, but you're likely stretching your tires out and camping.

[tammer]

Here's my take on it, as a rookie about who will be running his first races in the spring and someone who is on a tight budget. I'm a competitive person, but I know for a fact that I won't be able to afford a set of R1s every weekend I run next year (SE36). However, I'd rather get out there and race on slow tires, work on racecraft and my own driving skills for a season, rather than running more DEs and wishing I was racing. A year later, I should (a) be done with grad school, and (b--hopefully) have a job and a somewhat more forgiving budget. Since I've been gradually prepping the car over the last couple of seasons, there have only been a couple of big, all-at-once financial hits: the first winter prep (cage, seats, harnesses, etc.), then this winter of final prep--bought a HANS, suit, fire system, and a bunch of other miscellaneous small things that add up. I've bought just about everything I need except a couple sets of tires, but after that I'll be able to run a full season without spending too much more as long as I'm okay with my tires getting slow (and I don't bend the car too badly). And frankly, it's not going to be the tires keeping me back in the pack this first year out, so I'll live.

I'd rather get racing experience and be slightly uncompetitive than wait until I can jump in with a new-tires-every-weekend budget. Besides, if I beat anyone on my beat tires I'll feel really good, and if I get my ass kicked, I have a built-in excuse! ;-)

-tammer

Edit--2 other things: I'm driving to races the first year (primarily due to lack of space for truck/trailer, and I'll probably be moving within the next year so I don't want to deal with those items yet), and--most importantly--I'm single!

[Bud Scott]

Let's see if the king of POS/cheap racing can shed additional light for your decision making process.

1. DE: Great track time for minimal investment. It's not W2W but still a lot of fun. Car prep equals basic tune up stuff and a dedicated set of track tires. Call this 1000 to 1500 bucks for most track addicts. Entry fees (for non instructors) 300 to 450 depending on track. Two nights of hotel, food, consumables 150 to 200. Estimated weekend cost not counting vehicle prep is 500 to 800.

2. Lemons/Chumpcar: Incredible fun, incredible racing, and more seat/racing time in a weekend than just about any other series. Now for the bad news, you still have to have a RELIABLE race car and the support it needs. No shocker here, this costs money! Even for Lemons! That 500 buck car price/value is just the beginning. Roll cage installation, vehicle safety equipment, and allowed "safety" modifications will get you a possible 3K to 6K starting tab depending on how your fabrication/maintenance/shopping skills are. Now we have to get the car to the track which means a tow vehicle and trailer. (You really did not think you're going to drive this POS to the race, did you?) You need at least three of your bestest buddies as drivers/crew and they all have to be housed and fed for the weekend. The entry fee is usually 500 bucks plus 100 for each driver = 900. Most of the teams find a way to share the costs since they are all having fun. As you can see even a POS racing series is damn expensive for most of us. Of course if you have a reliable POS and run more than one or two of these events than your return on investment goes up. Still figure on weekend costs approaching the 1500 to 2K range.

3. Club racing: Sell the street car and those project cars you have in the garage. (OK, maybe not the project cars!) Let's choose one of the aforementioned spec classes for a sample. This is a BMW forum so Spec E30 it is. Good news here! Lots of choices out there for a doner car in the 500 to 1500 range. More good news! A spec suspension, tire/wheel choice, and limited engine mods should run you 2500 to 3500 in acquisition/prep costs. Keen shopping and trading could result in lower dollar figures spent. Still need all that pesky safety stuff for the car, oops, there goes 2000 to 3000! At this point the spouse/SO may have their BS detectors activated. (For most of us!) Got that track day E36 you say, OK delete the doner car and modify your street/DD car. Crap, still need something to get to work! Crap, still need a tow vehicle and trailer to get to the track!

I bet you get a feel for where this is going don't you! And we haven't even turned a lap yet at a licensing school of some sort. Good news here! Get thyself to a local SCCA/BMWCCA/NASA race school. It seems that all these organizations are recognizing each other's licenses in some manner. You may have to jump through a few hoops with local officials but it is well worth the effort.

REALITY CHECK TIME.............................................. ..............

Step 1: Before you jump off the deep end in any of the W2W stuff GET TO A BMWCCA RACE SCHOOL RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This will determine whether you want to step into the racing arena in the safest manner replicating racing conditions.

Step 2: If you really get the bug after that (I'm betting you will!) shop around for a race car rental as your first shot. This is about the cheapest way I know of to get into it without spending all that car prep/purchase outlay up front. I have seen guys/gals spend 10K to 20K right off the bat and decide after the first couple of races its not worth it. Return on investment is pretty crappy in that scenario.

Step 3: Having successfully completed steps 1 and 2, when you go into turn one 3 wide and five deep for the first time in a race you WILL FORGET EVERY PENNY YOU HAVE SPENT TO GET THERE AND SMILE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TOOLEAN]

I have made this comment before and I got FLAMED for it, so let me just state first that this is just my personal opinion...

I can balance my racing addiction and my budget buy competing in autocross. Local, cheap, no towing. Just something to keep in mind.

Regards, Nate.

[kishg]

at you really can't expect your car to run all day. Most people spend 90% of their time trying to make such a piece of shiite run. That's not fun. I'm just not that glutton for punishment. I've done it and it was fun, but not something I would commit myself for a season to do therefore not what I would consider an equal choice to DE or Club Racing.

not necessarily. our e30 ran the entire race with about 30mins downtime when we needed to take the broken wheel lug out when the wheel came off on track!

Back on topic, I'm hearing that SM/SSM SCCA might be the cheapest/best option for club racing for my limited budget.

you could always do E30M3T

but on-topic, i think it's hard to beat SM or SE30 in the competition fun/$$ equation. You can always run SE30 with BMW CCA in addition to NASA. I'll probably do that next year.

[lazz]

I budget about $1k/weekend for mid pack spec e30 glory. I sleep at the track, buy used tires, pinch pennies where I can, etc etc.

Your LeMons pricing is about right.

The quality of driving is much higher in an actual club race, regardless of quantity.