track day questions

[dorikin_86]

Came back from Streets of Willow springs today and once again disappointed...

First of all my brakes.....the pedal sank after a few laps..wot is up with that? i have ate super blue fluid + cool willy pads...what's wrong? the braking is still there...but the pedal just seems to be too deep for my comfort...

Second of all...i'm driving as fast as i can with slight understeering into corners and exiting with slight understeer....does this mean i'm driving at teh car's limit?

Third of all, i'm envious of hte grip the WRX's have..they simply dive into a corner and they just floor the sucker and it pulls right out....HOW ON EARTH are we supposed to combat that kind of grip? Anybody?

My car just has too much understeer/bodyroll/dive...if I were to go with GC coiloverrs...what spring rates do you guyz recommend?

For you info...i am running -1.5 degree camber on all four corners with 235/40 17 Kumho V700....ACschnitzer spring/shocks and full interior.

Any input appreciated....

[badmonkey]

Not nearly enough negative camber on the front for the V700's. Try at least -3 degrees in front, and at least -2 at the rear.

[jonmacs22]

many questions and here are a couple answers:
first, as an owner of a WRX with full JIC Coilovers and track set-up, we are not as fast as you think. Our cars are not nearly built to deal with the stresses of the track like yours. My last car was a 98 3/4 and I miss it. Yes we have the AWD advantage but you can't do anything about that. The simple fact is that it is easier to drive our cars fast than it is yours, but for a skilled driver, yours is better.

Now as for your brakes, you need some SS lines, that is the first step and a relatively cheap one. Next, I have no idea about cool willy pads, but if you read some of the posts around here about track pads you will see some that truly work.

Finally, I agree with the above statemeny about increasing your camber. Something else to keep in mind as you increase the stresses on your car through suspension mods, a set of unhinged front and rear strut bars are a good idea.

j

[norman]

looks like another person is slipping down THE slope...

[count_schemula]

Sounds like air in the brake lines. Re-bleed. Look for air to confirm if this is the problem.

I have GC coilovers with f375# and r475# springs. These are very conservative springs, and as such give a great ride around town. I only mention them as a barometer. For a more track spring set-up, go stiffer. The people at ground control can advise.

Stiffer rear springs can help neutralize understeer somewhat.

Also maybe try running 1-2 pounds more air pressure in the front than in the rear.

[dorikin_86]

Thanks all for the input and I'll get right on bleeding my brakes etc etc...

as far as the WRX....I think what you said is true but are 4wd's really slower than rwd's at the professional level? I know the Audi quattro cars got banned from British Touring Car Championships long time ago because of 4wd (winning almost all races)....and simply the speed my friends take corners is amazing......they just dive in...full throttle out =)

[Young]

Originally posted by dorikin_86

Second of all...i'm driving as fast as i can with slight understeering into corners and exiting with slight understeer....does this mean i'm driving at teh car's limit?

Maybe. But, of course, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're driving the car as fast as it can be driven. The limit changes with *how* the car is driven. The smoother you are, the faster a car can go through a corner without reaching the limit. If you throw a car into a corner too abruptly or too fast with the tires squealing from understeer, you'll actually be slower despite the fact that you're driving the car, technically, at the "limit." Conversely, if you enter a corner too slowly, but get on the gas too abruptly, your car may oversteer making you think you've entered the corner at the limit whereas you've actually entered it below the limit and overcompensated by getting on the gas too hard.

There's a great discussion of all of these points in Ross Bentley's books: Speed Secrets and Speed Secrets II. Both highly recommended, along with his Inner Speed Secrets, which explains the mental game of race driving.

The biggest thing you'll learn from these books is that you can always get faster and drive better and raise the limits of your car just by the way you drive.

[Young]

Originally posted by dorikin_86
Thanks all for the input and I'll get right on bleeding my brakes etc etc...

as far as the WRX....I think what you said is true but are 4wd's really slower than rwd's at the professional level? I know the Audi quattro cars got banned from British Touring Car Championships long time ago because of 4wd (winning almost all races)....and simply the speed my friends take corners is amazing......they just dive in...full throttle out =)

The Audis do well in American Touring car racing as well, but they're advantage seems to be more in raw horsepower than AWD. The BMWs in the Speed World Challenge tend to outcorner the Audis. Although that's probably largely because of weight (the Audis are heavier). AWD has a tendency towards understeer, but it will keep the power down, around, and out of a corner better than RWD. AWD will also mask "bad" driving much better than RWD. You can get away with a lot of stuff (bad lines, jerking the car around, et al.) you'd never be able to get away with in a RWD.

With that said, it's impossible to say without further information whether your friends are driving their WRXs faster through corners because their cars are faster or because their drivers are faster. Could you describe your cars, setups, and laptimes at various tracks?

[mmark.]

Imo,as for your brakes, It sounds like the master cylinder piston is running out of travel. This could be air in the lines, most likely the rears or a weak master cylinder.
You need more front neg camber as has already been suggested.
Once you have the confidence in your brakes you need to live up to the mantra of your sig.... Ie, modify the part that connects the steering wheel to the seat.
You don't sound positive... Where were you a match for the WRX?
When close to stock, they will push both in and out of the corner.
Don't allow yourself to be intimidated by their straight line prowess.
Don't waste your time watching their lines through the corners, it is the wrong line for your car, and you will only follow them.
Concentrate on your skills and your car. Being a good driver of any description is a lifetime of accumulating skills for most of us.

i would not run out and buy a WRX either, because it will probably not resolve your issues

There appears also to be a problem with WRX gearboxes and the reluctance of Subaru of America to honor the powertrain warranty.
m. (S14 WRX ETR)

[dorikin_86]

thanks for the GREAT replies...

first of all young,

I know for sure that i'm faster on Buttonwillow raceway because the corners are less tight and the WRX drivers dont' have as much experience on that track =) however on Streets of willow..it's a different story...it's a much slower track with a lot of 2nd/3rd gear turns and elevation changes.

My setup as mentioned earlier is ACS spring/shocks, cool willy pads with floating rotors, SS lines, Eibach sways and V700 kumhos. -1.5 camber all the way round with 2/32nd toe on all 4 corners.

I was pulling 1:42 at streets of willow with that setup...the WRX counter parts are fully modified with Big brake kits, SS lines, JIC or HKS coilovers and 300+hp at the crank, Falken Azenis, swaybars, semi gutted interior and they were doing about 1:40.

I drive with smoothness in mind myself and tried different lines to try to get more speed out of corners or into corners...I know I have room for improvement but it just seemed like the WRX has a lot more potential than our cars...which is sad...I really want to show them that a better driver is always faster than any mod you can throw on the car =)

I will bleed the brakes soon too...see if that helps my problem


I think I plan on doing a full driving school where I'm taught by an instructor for 4 hours....or else i'm just wearing my car down.

[Def]

Go with -3* camber up front, zero toe and then -2* camber out back with 1/16" toe-in per side. Will turn-in like a dream and rotate nicely.

Get some GC RTAB Shims or Powerflex Bushings before you get it aligned. I'd also get a GC C/O kit if you are really going to be tracking the car. ACS stuff is definitely geared towards show over go.

[Hellrot]

If you have air in the lines then you'd have a squishy pedal all the time. Since you're getting more travel after the brakes have gotten hot, it sounds like brake hose expansion. I was having the same problem and put on a set of SS hoses and it solved my problem. New stock hoses would work as well without the extra maintenance of the SS hoses.

[Young]

dorikin_86,

Which configuration were you doing at the Streets? Also, what kind of car are you driving and what kind of hp does it make? What are your times at Buttonwillow, and for which configuration(s)? Have you run the big track at Willow Springs? If so, what kind of laptimes there?

It's probably impossible to answer the question of whether, ultimately, the WRX has more "potential," but we can probably help you figure out how close you're driving your own car to its full potential.

[Young]

By the way, assuming you're driving an M3 and it has hp equivalent to that of the WRXs you were running with, it's surprising that your car would be that much slower, especially in light of the tires. The Kumhos should be worth at least a couple of seconds over the Azenis at the Streets. So, you were really a good 4-5 seconds off of the WRX pace. That's an eternity at a track as short as the Streets.

[dorikin_86]

Streets was clockwise with bowl =)

I have a E36 m3 that has intake/exhaust so that puts me in teh stock 240hp range but I don't think I was losing on hp to the REX...maybe i'm just not pushing it hard enough through the turns? I know I'm faster than WRX's thru turn 1 but turn 2 i slow down too much perhaps and then 3,4,5 and bowl I know i'm not going as fast as i can...but the car is just understeering so I really can't do anything more..maybe u can give me a few pointers?

I run low 2:20's at buttonwillow...full track with dog leg + sweeper and thsi was before V700 and camber adjustments...

I never got timed at willow springs actually because I haven't been there that often so =(

[mmark.]

Now that we know more about the car and your level of experience, improving front grip as well as brakes would be in order.
I'd say you could:
Improve front grip by,
1, more neg front camber.
2, experiment with higher pressures in the rear tires
3, decrease the immediate effects of the front bar by effectively softening it slightly.
4, Stiffening the rear bar.
5, increasing the rear damper rates.
6, softening the front damper rates.
7 , increasing the rear spring rates.
8, leave the rear camber as is, but maybe add a titch more toe out in the rear.
9, 1/16" toe out in front, if not on street much.
10, experiment with different methods of corner entry,eg, LFB , attacking the apex, trail braking, slowing down for the corner earlier, Tossing the car, just to see what your car likes/dislikes,adding more throttle earlier to get a little higher slip angle out of the tires etc...
Ignore the Scoobys and other cars, otherwise your ego will block your ability to try different techniques.
talk to other E36 participants and see how they drive around the deficiencies of their machines, after all if they are street legal, they will have handling compromises to overcome.
m.

[///MTV]

For brakes, I suggest CarboTech Panther plus or something from Performance Friction.

http://www.carbotecheng.com/prod-ct-compounds.htm

Addtionally, run a brake cooling kit with ducting onto a backing plate. Lacking any brake component problems, this will solve overheating issues that have already affected your performance or shortly will. www.bimmerworld.com

[dorikin_86]

Thanks guys...

I'm gonna try ur suggestions and see =)

[jcarp]

My 2 cents. The quickest way to improve is to grab an instructor/driving that's really fast and ask them to ride with you. You'd be amazed at how much improvement you can make with a little third party input. It may save you from spending a bunch of money you don't need to spend right now.

WRX's are most vulnerable in the corners, they push like pigs and they can't late break without massive brake upgrades (even then they still can't keep them from overheating). BUT, when over- boosted they can accelerate out of the corners in a big hurry and leave you in dust if you've missed your line.

[Young]

Originally posted by dorikin_86
Streets was clockwise with bowl =)

I have a E36 m3 that has intake/exhaust so that puts me in teh stock 240hp range but I don't think I was losing on hp to the REX...maybe i'm just not pushing it hard enough through the turns? I know I'm faster than WRX's thru turn 1 but turn 2 i slow down too much perhaps and then 3,4,5 and bowl I know i'm not going as fast as i can...but the car is just understeering so I really can't do anything more..maybe u can give me a few pointers?

I run low 2:20's at buttonwillow...full track with dog leg + sweeper and thsi was before V700 and camber adjustments...

I never got timed at willow springs actually because I haven't been there that often so =(

On Kumhos and your current suspension, you should be able to get into the 1:34-1:37 range at the Streets. I ran a 1:39 there in my 330i w/automatic on A032Rs (which are a second or two slower than Kumhos) with a Dinan suspension, intake and exhaust and pretty much nothing else in the way of mods.

At Buttonwillow (full track with bus stop and sweeper, but not Star Mazda) you can probably get in the 2:13-2:15 range on good street tires, such as Azenis. On Kumhos, 2-3 seconds faster than that.

As for the big track at Willow Springs, Roger Foo drove my 330i to a 1:38 there on street tires (Azenis)...with a passenger! A properly set up M3 on Kumhos could take it well under 1:35.

[Young]

The short of it is that you can be driving your M3 faster with the setup you have now. So you might want to invest your time and money on finding that extra speed within yourself.

As someone suggested, take out a fast instructor. Or even have an instructor (a trustworthy professional racer preferrably) drive your car hard or take you around in a similarly equipped M3 at speed. It helped me a great deal when a professional test driver for BMW took me around Buttonwillow in my own 330i. I found 6 seconds that day and 9 seconds during that weekend.

[dorikin_86]

Young: I guess i suck! =) Thanks so much for all the input...

I'm gonna have to get some driving lessons then...I did order my coilovers already but I think I'll save it after I get my driving lesson.....which ones do you guyz recommend? My past instructor told me Driving concepts is really good...

any others?

Thanks a lot!

as for the WRX's....2 were in the 300hp range...one was pushing 400+hp so naturally i cannot keep up with those...but my goal is still to beat them with my relatively stock car =)

[Young]

Originally posted by dorikin_86
Young: I guess i suck! =) Thanks so much for all the input...

I'm gonna have to get some driving lessons then...I did order my coilovers already but I think I'll save it after I get my driving lesson.....which ones do you guyz recommend? My past instructor told me Driving concepts is really good...

any others?

Thanks a lot!

as for the WRX's....2 were in the 300hp range...one was pushing 400+hp so naturally i cannot keep up with those...but my goal is still to beat them with my relatively stock car =)

If they're turning 1:40s at the Streets, you can definitely beat them in your M3, hp disadvantage or no!

By the way, neither you or your times suck! You just need to get to the next level in your driving. There's always another level to get to, unless you're Michael Schumacher.

Driving Concepts is a good group with good instructors. I haven't done their HPDE, but I did their race school early last year. I'd also recommend TracQuest (www.tracquest.com).

By the way, I think the most important skill anyone can learn and the one skill that is absolutely essential to going fast is...car control. It something that's not necessarily emphasized enough to beginners. Smoothness is a given, line is important, and looking far ahead is great...but until you learn to take your car to the limit (or just a little bit over it) and keep it there on the ragged edge, you won't get the most out of yourself or your car. So I recommend skidpads, autocrosses, even (*gasp*) drifting to improve your car control skills.

[dorikin_86]

I know I can go faster but to do 1:34-37 is kinda tough....i know s2k in stock form does 1:38 so i guess it's very possible...just not with my current level....

i talked to my wrx buddies..they're not running 1:40's..they're running 1:34...1:38's.....only one was running 1:40.....

I'll definitely look up tracquest...i need instruction badly...i think i'll do more lessons before i put in my coilovers and do some drifting if i can =) ehehehehe

[Young]

By the way, one area you should be putting money into your car is in safety gear. Minimally, a rollbar and fire extinguisher if you don't have those already. Then consider race seats and a five-point harness. Don't do harnesses without a rollbar though.

Of course, you could also do the smart thing. If you're going to be doing a lot of track events, just buy a race car! Racing a Miata is a heck of a lot more affordable than tracking a nice BMW...the money you'll save on brakes and tires are worth it alone...not to mention the expense involved if you ever bend something.