Vorshlag $2010 GRM Challenge car - BMW E30 V8

[Ross2point0]

maybe so. i just put that out there due to there low budget and their rejecting of all the other ideas so far.

[tptrsn]

Yeah well, it could be the correct answer! Time will tell.

[TOOLEAN]

im guessing they went with the 5.3l out of a GM truck. cheep to buy, and have around 300hp.

This could also be an Aluminum block correct? Wasn't there 5.3's in cars that are all aluminum?

[M3 Muscle]

im guessing they went with the 5.3l out of a GM truck. cheep to buy, and have around 300hp.

The 5.3l truck motor is an iron block. The LS4 is a 5.3l with an aluminum block. If they can buy it at the right price it would be sick!

[Ross2point0]

yes, i said truck motor but knew they had an aluminum version. not 100 percent on the pricing though for the aluminum.

[BRAAP]

Majority of the Truck 5.3L blocks were iron, (in fact, as of late 2009 there were more 5.3 iron LSx engines produced than all other LSx engines combined), but there are also aluminum block truck 5.3L engines. Gen III= RPO LM4 and L33, (sold an L33 to a buddy installing it in his track only Datsun Z car), Gen IV= RPO LH6 and LC9. See the list below for a break down of GM LSx power-plants, through the beginning of '09.

A little digging I found a somewhat recent pic of a Borg Warner trans, looks an awful lot like a T5-T45 case, input shaft has a high spline count typical of GM transmissions… My guess is a GM V-8, most likely the power plant that was married to the trans… Could be Gen III/IV LSx, or possibly gen-I/II SBC?...

[DannyE30]

The 5.3l truck motor is an iron block. The LS4 is a 5.3l with an aluminum block. If they can buy it at the right price it would be sick!

yes, i said truck motor but knew they had an aluminum version. not 100 percent on the pricing though for the aluminum.

The Aluminum 5.3L engines you are referring to are the L33 and the LM4.

The L33's are found in the '03-'04 TrailBlazer EXT/Envoy XL's.
The LM4's are found in the '05-'07 Silverado/Sierra AWD 1500.

I was looking into those a while back and they're around the 500-1000 price range, at least from what I have found, I know other people have found them for cheaper. But that doesn't include the Oil pan, ls1/6 intake manifold, ls1/6 fuel rails, etc. That you would usually use to swap one into an E30. That alone, seems like it would use up a big chunk of their budget.

[Ross2point0]

you two have both found what i was looking for to describe the engine. i was unsure of the number designation. i am definitely copying and keeping that cart for future reference. cant wait to see what this thing really is...but the L33 is my best guess.

[DannyE30]

How about a clue? Maybe...

Is it a American, Euro, Import v8?

[Rex1585]

Northstar is my guess, solid reliability, and awesome sounds... that and they are DOHC.....


Though a Rover v8 would be pretty friggen sweet

[Pete84]

The few hints that have been supplied point towards an engine that has not been mated to a T5 before. Northstar should be gone then, LSx's, Ford Mod and 5.0's, and just about everything domestic.

So, cheap power that hasn't been adapted to a T5, what would that be? OHC Mopar truck engine? Perhaps a Mercedes or BMW mill?

[tptrsn]

Did he say it was OHC?

I hope we're not all totally underwhelmed when the cat is finally let out of the bag!

[andrezbim]

Ok .. here's another idea.

I did a quick search, and since they were looking Nissan early on

I'm thinking .. what about the VK45de ??.. later generation Q45 engine.
[instead of the vh45de]

I bet you could find one for about $700.

Output at 345hp.

Ah.. the tuning would be expensive though... DAMN.

I bet a 350z flywheel would fit though.

[TOOLEAN]

I hope we're not all totally underwhelmed when the cat is finally let out of the bag!

I agree! With this EXTREME budget I was orginally anticipating something with a carburator! haha Many great suggestions here, but this budget constraint is a huge buzzkill. I have no doubt that Terry and the Vorshlag boys have considered all possibilities.

Can't wait to hear the outcome!

[Fair]

Update for June 14, 2010 - PART I: We got a lot done this past weekend - I put in a good 18-20 hours over those 2 days, Chris worked all day Sunday and Paul M worked both days on the lathe. Thanks, guys! Anyway, here's the stuff we worked on.

Paul spent his two days on our little manual lathe cutting up a chunk of cylindrical Nylon into some custom rear subframe bushings. To save money we made these from scratch instead of buying any of the common poly or aluminum replacement bushings - any of which are a MASSIVE improvement over the stock rubber bushings, which allow TONS of subframe/diff movement. Any sane person would simply BUY some aftermarket pieces, but due to this INsane budget of $2010 we had to make them.



We sketched up the stock stuff, then I jotted down my 2-piece Nylon idea, and we cut out the OEM bushing cores from the stock rear subframe housing with a SawsAll. Paul then took these rubber covered, square shaped aluminum internal pieces and whittled them into a usable, cylindrical shape we could slide them into in the finished nylon bushings. The old rubber made a huge, sticky mess!





Then he cut the round cylinder of Nylon into 4 usable chunks, using a parting tool and some cutting fluid. Nylon is a chore to machine - gets gummy messy fast.



The trick is to get the cutting speeds/depths just right so you have a steady stream of nylon coming off....



You have to stop the machine often when the continuous strand of Nylon gets wrapped around the part (it always does!). A test of patience on a manual lathe like this.



Paul did an awesome job (and was a machinist in a former job many eons ago) - I could never have made these in the time frame he did, nor with this level of quality control. He had all measurements within .001" and everything slid perfectly into place!



The lower pieces were tricky in that they had to have a recessed pocket to clear the lower stock locating bracket/washer.



With those finished late Saturday we bolted the subframe housing into place. This was a major hurdle and lets us finally install the modded trailing arms, finish mounting the diff (have to set the pinion angle and drill two holes), and get to work on the rear brakes. It more importantly lets us put some springs in the back and set the car on the rear wheels!

More updates from last weekend below...

[Fair]

Update for June 14, 2010 - PART II: While Paul worked the lathe on Saturday I finish welded the rear diff mount structure we added, organized all of our parts into labeled boxes, installed some other misc. parts we had, and got the car level/square on the lift to start mock-up for the new trans crossmember.



I weighed the used aluminum race seat we just bought for a great price. I took it inside and came back 5 minutes later - the shop cat Luke had already curled up into and taken a nap in the new seat. Great... its now covered in fur, of course.



On Sunday I worked on a new trans crossmember with Chris. We had changed from one T5 to another, as well as to a .... weird configuration with respect to the bellhousing. When doing this it rotated the trans 15 degrees, but this lined up the shifter better with the tunnel and floor. So I had to make an all new trans crossmember. That means starting over from scratch with respect to measuring drive line angles, then re-doing all of that fab work.





Many hours later we had the new unit bolted back into the car (we'll paint it later this week). This new configuration adds more room for exhaust routing on the driver's side, under the trans, which is a nice bonus. The passenger side inner part of the floor pan sits higher than the driver's side, so it can route well on that side anyway. This is assuming we run dual 3" exhausts to at least the middle of the car, which is the plan.



Then I took the tacked-together motor mounts and finish welded all of the pieces, then Chris primed and painted those. There are 2 more main motor side pieces I'm not showing - I have seen how smart some forum readers are, and they'd figure out the motor in seconds if I showed these. All the pieces are back in the car now and all of that is wrapped up.



Lastly, while Chris and I waited on Paul to finish the subframe bushings, we took some measurements and pics of the two tires we have lined up for use on this car. The 18x11" CCW wheels are mounted up with some old 305/30/18 Hoosiers (this is similar to the tires we'll use for the GRM UTCC event in July), and the 15x10" steel wheels have some very used 275/35/15 Hoosiers (this is the package we'll use for the GRM Challenge events in October).





Surprisingly the 275 on the 15x10" wheel has only about 1/2" less tread (10.5") than the 305 on the 18x11" (11" of tread), but the 15" tire is almost 3" shorter. That will affect gearing a bit - need to go run the numbers!

More work this week (Tues and Thurs) including driveshaft measure/shorten/cut/weld, rear brake mock-up, rear fender cutting for tire clearance, and (my least favorite!).... header fab begins.

More soon,

[tptrsn]

Those cross-members and mounts are beautiful pieces of craftsmanship!

Question though, as difficult as nylon is to machine (which I never considered), why not just make all of your single axis or no movement bushings from aluminum?

[BRAAP]

Looks like the 15 degree tilt of the GM World Class T-5... mounts could work for either LSx or Gen-I/II SBC.
Who's holding the kiddie for what V-8 Terry is using and what i s price per space? I want two places in the, LM7 and LT1

[DannyE30]

Looks like the 15 degree tilt of the GM World Class T-5... mounts could work for either LSx or Gen-I/II SBC.
Who's holding the kiddie for what V-8 Terry is using and what i s price per space? I want two places in the, LM7 and LT1

I was thinking LT1/4, as well...


But that "adapter that's never been done before", has kinda thrown me off a bit.

[Rex1585]

Yeah that transmission can be spotted from MILES away, goofy setup due to the foxbody, but they are great transmissions.

[82bmw633]

Did he say it was OHC?

I hope we're not all totally underwhelmed when the cat is finally let out of the bag!

Could it be a Buick V-6 Turbo motor from a GNX? I thought the slant of that particular T-5 trans was from that era.

[Fair]

Yeah that transmission can be spotted from MILES away, goofy setup due to the foxbody, but they are great transmissions.

I've admitted to the trans already here... didn't I? Its a World Class T5 all right, and it (normally) has that same 15 degree list to starboard... but its not the one you think (3rd gen Camaro V8 T5).


95-02 Camaro 3.8L-V6 T5
Borg Warner T5 5-speed Manual
Gear Ratios : 3.75, 2.19, 1.41, 1.00, 0.72
Spline : 26 input/27 output
Torque Rating : 305 lb-ft

This is a 4th gen Camaro V6 T5... the one nobody wants, with the same torque rating as the 1989-1992 Camaro 5.0 World Class T5 box but at a fraction of the cost ($100 and you can find them in good shape). This V6 T5 trans has a Ford front bellhousing pattern on it, for what its worth... but who said we were using a factory bellhousing?

Cheap, disposable, strong, and very modern for the T5 design. With a little effort it cold be made to bolt behind anything. Food for thought.

[tptrsn]

How bout a 3.9L V-8 from a Lincoln LS? For all I know those might be huge too. . . . And probably not the best option.

Do we know it's a V-8, or not?

[andrezbim]

Here's what we know {i think}

Probably a v8 [i think he said it "MUST be a v8"]
Probably not usually mated to a T5 [probably not domestic..ish]
Probably makes over 300hp
Not a VH45De nissan
Not a 1uz toyota
Fit's in a e30 engine compartment [probably without cutting to make room].
Probably will be sold as a "kit" in the future.
Probably will have some cool factor;
Probably will work "really" well like other Vorshlag tech;
and... probably will underwhelm us

Oh.. and probably not expensive or generally desireable.

Oh.. and probably has unique motor mounts.

[Ross2point0]

you are probably right, lol