you are going to need the late E36 M3 control arms as well as offset bushings to pull this off.
You'll also need to slot the lollipops to push the wheel forward even more.
You should have browsed the 5-lug section on R3vlimited before all the experimentation. This setup has been ironed out for years.
Good luck with the project!
Last edited by 2002maniac; 02-20-2010 at 08:29 PM.
That's exactly what we have. It still needs more.
note the '95 M3 offset LCA bushings
We're using '96 M3 LCAs + '95 M3 LCA bushings, and its still not enough
This isn't a surprise - as the accurate tech we finally found online told us this.
We might try that, but there's not a lot of room to move these.
Well a lot of the E30 5-lug swap write-ups are incomplete, or just plain wrong. I can show you as many write-ups that have bad tech as I can that show the proper methods. But you are right that the best write-ups about this E30 stuff is on R3vlimited, and the best tech I found there came from a user named Aptyp, and his tech article on 5-lug swaps. He's figured out all the permutations and tested the most parts. It seems that the best combination for using E36 struts on an E30 is to use E36 M3 spindles (and brakes/rotors) and '96-99 M3 LCAs.
E36 M3 spindles, rotors and calipers are needed for a proper E36 suspension swap onto an E30
We don't have room in our $2010 GRM Challenge budget to afford E36 M3 spindles/brakes/rotors, and we're pushing the limits of what fits within a 15" wheel with the 11.5" diameter E36 non-M brakes, as it is (E36 M3 brakes are 12.5" diameter). So if we need more caster adjustment forward we'll probably find it with custom lower control arms. The fact that the E36 non-M spindles/rotors/brakes are cheap and/or free helps us with our crazy low $2010 GRM budget.
more below...
Last edited by Fair; 02-21-2010 at 01:55 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Terry Fair @ Vorshlag Motorsports
function (in-budget and small) defeats form (lots of money for no reason) once again in the form of the steering!!!
-Rich-
And now some new parts we've acquired for the project:
Derek scored this "sweet" eBay steering wheel. The 1.5" smaller diameter will help for auto-x and track use
Derek also offered up a used steel Camaro driveshaft, which we'll use pieces of to make our driveshaft. Seats we're test fitting team members into
So why are we worrying about better seats, now? Aren't the eBay reclining seats good enough for auto-x, drag race, and the car show? Well, these seats are as comfortable as sitting on a piece of plywood, and aren't up to snuff for track use, so they're going to be sold. Wait... did I just say TRACK USE? Why would we worry about that on a GRM $2010 Challenge car.
Because we're going to take the E30 to the 2010 GRM Ultimate Track Car Challenge (UTCC) in July.
Assuming everything goes as planned, we can have the car completed in time, track worthy/safe, and maybe even sorted. We had planned on going to UTCC this year with team member Paul Costas' ungodly fast tube framed GT1 car (see below). He went to the UTCC in 2007 and was very fast, but plagued by a rushed build schedule. He wants a rematch at VIR's big course this year. So since we're towing to VIR, and have a 2 car trailer... why not take the $2010 GRM E30! It made sense to me, at least after a few beers.
Costas' GT1 Camaro
So yesterday I talked to the guys at GRM and they loved the idea. Since a $250,000 Daytona Prototype won last years UTCC, its getting a little beyond "grass roots". Maybe bringing a dose of reality in the form of a $2010 crap box will slightly realign UTCC with the magazine that sponsors it? And it'll be a damn good shake down for the October $2010 Challenge event. I mean, if the E30 survives 150+ mph straight away speeds and corners at VIR, then it should withstand 5 drag runs and a few minutes dorking around in the parking lot for the $2010 Challenge, right?
We're going to throw down the gauntlet on the GRM forums and challenge more $2010 Challenge teams to drag their low-buck builds to the 2010 UTCC, and Per Schroeder has offered up a free beer and a cheeseburger to the fastest $2010 Challenge car at UTCC. A beer and a cheeseburger? I've done crazier things than this for less.
So we're upping the attention on the E30 project to add more emphasis on road course safety and speed. We're going to add a Kirk Racing 4-point competition roll bar for sure (ordering 5 of these units on Monday for various Team members' cars, including my DSP E46 project and the E30), as well as a good FIA harness (G-Force Pro 6-point). Neither of these items will count against our budget, according to the folks at GRM - whew. But the seat will... so we have to sell the eBay seats in the car now on CraigsList for maximum $$$ to afford one racing seat we'll need. The Pate swap meet is coming up so we'll be trolling the aisles for a good deal on an aluminum Kirkey or UltraShield seat, or maybe even a composite road race seat from Sparco or Cobra? We can only dream.
The car has to pass NASA tech inspection before it can run at UTCC, so we'll try to finish it sooner than originally planned so we can run it at a local NASA Texas Time Trial event, and get a full tech inspection and a log book issued before we drag it to VIR in July. This moves up the schedule and ups the ante considerably, but our $2010 budget isn't going to change. Can we do it? Can we make a safe, sorted track car for $2000 that isn't embarrassingly slow? We'll see. We'd be happy if we go to UTCC and beat the bottom 3rd of the field, but even those cars are going to be stupid fast and have at least $30-40K+ in their construction. Time will tell if we bit off more than we can chew...
After a noted engine builder stopped by last weekend and checked out our motor, the horsepower plans have ratcheted up a bit. He knows these motors better than almost anyone on the planet, had some really good low-cost ideas, and we're going to follow his advice. We aren't sharing ANYTHING about the motor until its in the car and running. The oil pan we need (and have horse traded 3 levels deep to get!) is arriving this week, then we can finally do our mockups in the car with the actual oil pan and trans we're running for the Challenge event. We've already done drivetrain mock-ups with.... another trans.
No more details - I've already over-shared, so I'll stop there. Back to to the shop to thrash on my DSP E46. We spent a couple grand yesterday buying parts for that car, and I need to put the mountain of parts I already have here now to get ready for what's inbound.
Stay tuned for more.
Terry Fair @ Vorshlag Motorsports
How the hell do you guys have time to make any money with all of your toys you have to work on?
this is sweet, I told a buddy of mine about this idea, and he likes the idea of he and I doing it....unless I buy another S2000 before it....
here is a stupid question ...
Why not drill new lug holes for the 5 lug conversion ??? What's the down side of drilling new holes and replacing the 4 lug brake disk and caliper with the e 36 5 lug brake disc and caliper ???
I now a lot of cars that have conversion from 3 lug to 4 lug conversion done with new holes but I dont know any of them running with more than 105 mhp. please tell me the down side of drilling new holes
I was thinking the same thing for the rear... I'm dreading the junkyard crawl to find the proper Z3 rear bits. So last week one of the GRM Team members pulled the rear brakes apart and we did a quick check with an E36 front hub. There's not enough metal to properly support the larger bolt circle of the 5 x 120mm BMW pattern. The 4 x 100 mm circle is a good bit smaller. See the pictures below.
Last week we got the trans and bellhousing in, but we've changed to a different setup already. Cost reasons. We've figured out a trans we can use that nobody ever wants, and its cheap as hell to get because of this. Of course we may scatter its guts behind the engine, but hey - the budget drives a lot of choices here. The motor mounts are done, as is a trans crossmember. We're back at it again tonight, yanking that trans and testing another.
Gotta start on the wiring harness tonight, too. This is the least fun work of all. Junkyard harness and ECM that needs to be re-worked and re-routed - all sorts of fun.
Last edited by Fair; 03-04-2010 at 12:00 PM.
Terry Fair @ Vorshlag Motorsports
Fair, so what other transmission choices you considering to use that are cheaper than t5?
ok good point but here is a nother sugestion how about a e34 e28 parts they are the same 5x120 there is a slight chance that one might fit
I'm looking foward to this conversion my self for some 16" or 17" rims and my budget is smaller, I'll start experiments on the fornt next week
Last edited by spider2077; 03-04-2010 at 06:42 PM.
Yeah, I just got rid of two of those for about a hundred bucks total. Of course, one had the standard blown third gear. . . Part of the deal was that the guy HAD to take it.
Project Update for Mar 5, 2010: Wow, we haven't had an update since early February!? Believe it or not the GRM team has met every week and worked on the E30, and I burned the entire weekend last Saturday and Sunday, mocking up and building motor mounts and a transmission crossmember. The final parts are done and look great, if I say so myself. Of course I cannot show any of this...
These pictures don't show much detail on purpose... and that's a borrowed trans.
Last night we pulled the mockup drivetrain out, removed the borrowed trans, and started to tear down the engine for the last time. The modified oil pan was cleaned (yuck! it was like mud in there), the intake manifold was disassembled and cleaned, injector seals were checked and oiled, connecting rod and thrust bearing clearances were checked and looked great, and we started to button it all back up for the last time. Since we're not revealing the motor we're using just yet (be patient!), that's all I can say about that, so I will discuss some of the other mods we're working on.
More on the 5-lug swap: We need the 5x120 mm 5-lug to be able to use GM pattern 15x10" steel wheels. The front E36 non-M spindle and brake parts we've added to the E30 are already documented here. The non-M E36 bits are never coveted by BMW folks, who usually chuck them in favor of larger E36 M3 spindles/hubs/brakes. So we were able to pickup several sets of spindles, rotors, calipers, and hubs for nothing. Of course our budget will take the usual hit of "fair market value", as found on a nationwide salvage yard website price list. Some GRM Challenge teams put $0 towards their budgets when they use free parts, but you're supposed to use Fair Market Value, and we will because its The Right Thing To Do.
The rear brakes are still 4-lug stockers for the moment. This is holding up our 15x10 whee;/tire/flare mockups. We thought about just re-drilling the rear 4-lug E30 hubs for the 5-lug pattern. So last week one of the GRM Team members pulled the rear brakes apart and we did a quick visual check with an E36 front hub. There's not enough metal to properly support the larger bolt circle of the 5 x 120mm BMW pattern. The 4 x 100 mm circle is a good bit smaller. See the pictures below.
So this weekend we're going to prowl the junkyards looking for the Z3 rear brakes and hubs we need, based on knowledge we learned on R3vlimited forums and this guy's excellent tech article on E30 5-lug swaps. We found one junkyard willing to sell the Z3 rear hubs for $25, so we'll swing by there if we strike out elsewhere.
Seats: We've got a pair of eBay specials in the car now that "look pretty" but pretty much suck at supporting a driver in hard cornering. For auto-x and drag racing they might do the trick, but since we're gearing up to run the 2010 UTCC event at VIR, these seats have got to go. They are not cut out for road course used.
To help reduce the cost of the $500 car, these seats will be sold. To avoid spending many hundreds per seat on race seat or seats, since seats are not considered a pressing safety item and DO count against our $2010 budget, we're going to MAKE OUR OWN SEATS. Yes, we're crazy... but we were inspired by watching this show:
http://www.spike.com/full-episode/al...gos-race/32997
We've used aluminum seats in several of our other race cars, from UltraShields in McCall's '91 BMW 318is to Kirky Road Race seats in Costas GT1 car. They are simple, comfortable, strong, lightweight, and very easy to mount.
So we'll make some cardboard patterns based on one of those aluminum seats, buy a sheet of aluminum, cut our patterns, do some bending and TIG welding, and try to build a seat or two for this car. Since the car is already stupid light, we'll likely make them stronger than many of the aluminum seats we see other racers using, so don't fret about safety. This way we minimize the budget hit for real race seats, get a better/more supportive seat(s), and get to be probably one of the only teams to have homemade seats at the GRM Challenge.
More safety: Since we're going to (hopefully) be bombing down the straights at VIR at 150+ mph, we're going to step up the safety preparations significantly. We just bought a pair of G-Force Pro 6-point FIA cam lock harnesses for the E46 330 that I'm racing this year, and they are affordable at only $153.set. We'll get some for the E30 as well (and these are safety items that don't count towards the budget). We'll get another SPA 5 liter fire suppression system for the E30, the same as we used on the LS1 E36 Alpha car. This is money well spent, and also not counting against our budget, nor is it performance enhancing at all. I really dislike car-b-ques and crispy skin.
Rearend: We're going to hit the junkyards this weekend and look for a cheap diff while we search for the Z3 rear brakes. Fingers crossed...
More soon,
Last edited by Fair; 03-05-2010 at 12:14 PM.
Terry Fair @ Vorshlag Motorsports
Terry, why even bother with setting up a passenger seat and all the equipment that goes with it? Seems unnecessary.
Good Luck!! Nate.
Rearend: We're going to hit the junkyards this weekend and look for a cheap diff while we search for the Z3 rear brakes. Fingers crossed...
More soon,
http://denver.craigslist.org/pts/1623893896.html
I've bought a pair of seats from this guy - very nice and he is actually moving to TX next month (save on shipping).
-edit: ratio is problably not right for your application though.
K
Last edited by kablammo; 03-05-2010 at 01:27 PM.
Metal Mover @ www.milehighcarhelper.com
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Can you take a side shot of them seats? From the front they look like they have plenty of bolstering
Terry sent you a pm, have a set of good calipers for you
I love Dirt!
We have like 9 people on the team, so we'll have passengers aplenty for most autocross runs. Some track test days we attend regularly (member days, privcate test sessions, etc) allow passengers as well, and many of the team members are instructors for NASA and other HPDE groups, so that 2nd seat would get well used in the near future. At about 15 pounds and for roughly $40 in aluminum, it won't ding the weight or cost budget much to have that 2nd seat.
Yea, with the tire height, trans mission gearing, and rev limit of our V8, that rear end ratio is not ideal (3.73). Neither is the price. We need "pick-a-part" prices, hence, the junkyard crawl we have planned for tomorrow.
Which? Here's the lovely eBay specials we have now, along with the aluminum seats we plan to copy.
Left: UltraShield Rally Sport seats. Middle: eBay specials that came in our E30. Right: Kirkey Racing Intermediate Road Race seat
We'll be copying either the aluminum UltraShield Rally Spot seats in McCall's '91 318is, or Costas' GT1 car's Kirkey Intermediate Road Race seats.
Sweet! I'll respond shortly...
Terry Fair @ Vorshlag Motorsports
That Kirkey seat is exactly what I run in my e36. I am 6ft 185lbs and I went a little larger (17") size and added more padding. I made custom mounts, and I love it. So light and so cheap! I would suggest you consider making a back support coming off of your harness bar, just to be on the safe side. Oh and I had to bend the shoulder bolsters in for more support and because the left support was touching the inside of the door, a quick session with a rachet strap pulled it together nicely.
Regards, Nate.
question about 5 lug on the rear, I dont even have disk barkes can I convert to disk from drum or do I have to cahange the arms all togather ?!?!
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