Josh or others: which is the better route --

[NoSoup4U]

I believe AA makes turbo cams -- but, can someone tell me what is special about the cams? Is it heat-treated, or is it specially-made, and do I need to pay the price they are asking. I know Josh has this ... and the price is definitely not cheap. The guys that have this know what I mean. In essence, does someone else sell these cams or can make them at a significantly cheaper price?

Would you go about rebuilding the engine, going with forged pistons (ross -- b/c cheaper than JE), pauter rods (is this necessary???), IF you were going to do any headwork? Or, would you leave the engine alone, and do whatever work you need to do ... and use stock internals.

What is the benefit of AA's turbo cams?

Headgasket -- is it better to use a copper headgasket or the multi-layered steel gasket? From what I understand, the multi-layered steel gasket has an o-ring built in it? Is that correct? Does it act like a fire ring gasket (I would prefer to avoid this).

I am trying to determine how much money it would cost me to rebuild the engine to make it bulletproof. Why? For peace of mind ... but, perhaps I worry without needing to ...

Option B of my plan -- go after more power ...

I would upgrade to a full stage III (intercooler, s/w, water injection, etc) ... but keep the bottom end.

However, I remember Josh is putting out insane numbers with his engine ... and I was wondering what kind of numbers would I see with a fully built engine like his, and the T60-1/20g hybrid?

Which one is more economical and which one would you guys recommend?

Oh yeah, BOTH is not an option ... I'm done with the car after this last hurrah ...

[EclipsorGreen]

I don't know this for a fact, but I'm assuming the AA camshafts have a higher lift and/or longer duration. This allows the engine to ingest more compressed intake charge each time the intake valves open.

[///MCubed]

1. Cams can be "ground" to specs by other people, it is the knowledge of what works with your particular AA setup is what is being charged.

2. I would not build the engine until it died or I killed it.


3. Cams will help in reducing overlap, which is beneficial for an FI motor.


4. You wont see more power with a built engine vs. a non-built engine with the same setup. Building the engine is not a power adder. However, you can significantly tell the difference on how free revving the car is with the lighter internals. I have had my motor built and it is very different from stock.

My opinion: Drive your stock engine 'till it dies (or you kill it), then consider building it. As for more power: you can never have enough, even when it can kill you (faster than what it can already)

[Josh]

As Carlos stated, AA has a custom cam profile that they use with their kits to optimize power. They are re-ground from your existing cams. I do not know the specs on them and I do not believe AA makes that information readily available.

You do not need to build the motor if you are just doing headwork. If you have the money to spend, building the motor is never a bad thing. It will increase the motor's longevity quite a bit. And, by adding such items as a lighter knife-edged crank, there are potential power increases over a stock bottom end motor.

AA's turbo cam's increase mid-range power.

The copper headspacer is used on Stage 2 kits, where as AA uses the non-copper metal headspacer on their more powerful kits. The way I understand it, is both of these headspacers, when installed, are sandwiched between two heavy duty gaskets with metal o-rings (cutting rings).

A motor build can range from 6k to about 15k depending on how involved you want to get, ie headwork, knife edged crank.. etc.

My engine, with the exception of my turbo cams and the headspacer is 100% stock. On a 65 degree day, at 17 psi, it made 422 rwhp on AA's dyno. With a fully built motor, and under similar conditions, I would not be surprised to see a 10-20+ rwhp increase over that.

As for your question about which route to take, it all depends on what you want more, power or reliability. When you drive your car, do you think to yourself, "I wish this car was a little faster" or do you constantly worry about the motor holding up?
The stock bottom end is pretty robust. AA has several 600+ hp cars with thousands of miles logged on them with the stock bottom end without engine failure.
If you increase your power with the Stage 3 kit, you will be adding more stress to your motor. I do recall you saying to me at Bimmefest that you track the car quite a bit. So, durability on the track is also something to consider.

Originally posted by NoSoup4U
I believe AA makes turbo cams -- but, can someone tell me what is special about the cams? Is it heat-treated, or is it specially-made, and do I need to pay the price they are asking. I know Josh has this ... and the price is definitely not cheap. The guys that have this know what I mean. In essence, does someone else sell these cams or can make them at a significantly cheaper price?

Would you go about rebuilding the engine, going with forged pistons (ross -- b/c cheaper than JE), pauter rods (is this necessary???), IF you were going to do any headwork? Or, would you leave the engine alone, and do whatever work you need to do ... and use stock internals.

What is the benefit of AA's turbo cams?

Headgasket -- is it better to use a copper headgasket or the multi-layered steel gasket? From what I understand, the multi-layered steel gasket has an o-ring built in it? Is that correct? Does it act like a fire ring gasket (I would prefer to avoid this).

I am trying to determine how much money it would cost me to rebuild the engine to make it bulletproof. Why? For peace of mind ... but, perhaps I worry without needing to ...

Option B of my plan -- go after more power ...

I would upgrade to a full stage III (intercooler, s/w, water injection, etc) ... but keep the bottom end.

However, I remember Josh is putting out insane numbers with his engine ... and I was wondering what kind of numbers would I see with a fully built engine like his, and the T60-1/20g hybrid?

Which one is more economical and which one would you guys recommend?

Oh yeah, BOTH is not an option ... I'm done with the car after this last hurrah ...

[hukalaki]

As usual an excellent and always topical thread.

I have the same interests--going to Stage 3 and whether the cams or a rebuild would be a help.

My M3 is a 95 3.0L with 98k on the clock with the Stage 2 turbo and water injection currently.

I'm nearly the original owner (10K miles from a friend), the car is generally gently driven, leakdown is very good, it burns NO oil at all and runs like a champ (or like this sentance), with 360rwhp and 390 rwtq on AA's dyno.

If I go with Stage 3, how much longer might I expect an engine with this many miles to last? I actually am not on the boost too often as it is my commuter car, but often enough, I guess, to smack my diff bolt within 4 months of turbocharging.

Re the turbo cams, I did compare a stage 3 dyno profile to mine, and there is a definite improvement in low end torque--that was a 3.2, so I 'm not sure if that is from the displacement or the turbo cams, but it is significant.

Finally, what else is in the Stage 3 besides the larger intercooler and the T61--hybrid or whatever--that is not in Stage 2 Gen 3?

Thanks!

Ham