So Where Can You Get Rid Of Significant Weight On An E36 M3 And Stay Legal In SM?

[jmciver]

I was looking at the rules and was wondering where can you save some significant weight on the M3 in SM.

I know you can do things like lighter wheels, lighter battery, lighter exhaust, etc. (which you can do in BSP). But looking at the rules, it seems like the only other significant weight saving items that can be replaced/removed are the hood, front fenders and rear seat.

Is that really it? Did I miss something? What about things like getting rid of the radio/speakers, removing all the plastic paneling in the trunk (like the E36 Lightweight trunk), etc. I know you can't completely strip the interior since that will put you in a prepared class, but is that it?

I guess the real question is, what significant weight can you remove from the car under SM rules that you can't already remove in BSP?

After looking at the rules it seems that a fully SM prepared M3 is not that much different than a BSP prepared M3 even taking into account FI on the 3.0L M3, which I guess is why you see so many BSP M3s putting down times that are competitve with or beating SM times (it will be interesting to see how Tunnell does in SM this year.).

[John in Houston]

Your biggest weight savings will be in the interior. You can remove the rear seats (SM allowance) and replace the fronts with racing seats.

You can also pull the A/C system and all smog equipment (yeah, even though it is 'street' modified).

Front fenders & hoods. Not too sure about the rear trunk lid. Aluminum LTW doors are a big weight savings.

I believe you can pull the stereo... I think this was added to SM allowances.

That's about it other than the remaining obvious items (wheels, tires, etc).

[Erik@EDGE]

No to the trunk lid, but hood and fenders are cool. think about small things too...Suspension components like GC are lighter. Swap the steering wheel for a momo. Lose the fog lights

Etc, Etc..

[megatron]

in addition to things already mentioned
- lightweight flywheel
- bumper covers can be swapped
- if you have a sunroof you can eliminate it or (protestable interpretation) replace the sunroof skin with a carbon peice

- if you have enough ltw documentation to fight a protest, gut the trunk, install ltw carpets, strip the undercoating
- cf hood, cf fenders, al doors

- lightweight header if you can find one that doesn't give up bottom end

anything after this and the "street" starts to disappear

- no a/c
- no stereo equipment at all
- lightweight replacement headlights (single element)
- no fog lights

then you get into the extreme

- tubular suspension members
- carbon drive shaft
- titanium exhaust / carbon muffler

********

does anyone know how much fenders save? is it in the tens of pounds or less than that?

[Jim O.]

Originally posted by megatron
- if you have a sunroof you can eliminate it or (protestable interpretation) replace the sunroof skin with a carbon peice

Nope, this is not legal this year. Maybe next year - I think I saw this allowance in a FastTrack, slated for the 2004 rule book, but it may have been a proposal, not a rule change. But in 2003, eliminating sunroofs (except maybe by cutting off the entire roof and replacing it with a roof from a non-sunroof model) is not legal, and neither is replacing the sunroof skin with a carbon fiber panel.

- if you have enough ltw documentation to fight a protest, gut the trunk, install ltw carpets, strip the undercoating

Just to clarify - you can only strip the undercoating if you have documentation that shows that the undercoating is missing from those areas on the lightweight. Same with gutting the trunk. Interior stripping is not legal in Street Mod.

Jim

[megatron]

Originally posted by Jim O.
Nope, this is not legal this year. Maybe next year - I think I saw this allowance in a FastTrack, slated for the 2004 rule book, but it may have been a proposal, not a rule change. But in 2003, eliminating sunroofs (except maybe by cutting off the entire roof and replacing it with a roof from a non-sunroof model) is not legal, and neither is replacing the sunroof skin with a carbon fiber panel.

Not legal per the rulebook and definitely not protest-proof, but it'd be interesting to see how in practice this would stand up to "no weenies". Seems to me somewith the audacity to protest a lightweight sunroof-skin retrofit on a car that was available sans sunroof would risk a lynching.

[Jim O.]

This "no weenies" thing is a pile of BS. If someone is doing something illegal, they should be protested. How else are you going to avoid rules creep? The street mod rules already have way too many gray areas - to allow people to go blatantly beyond the gray into the illegal is just going to make matters worse.

So, let's see - someone replaces the sunroof with a carbon fiber panel. No one protests, so the next step would be to put in the carbon fiber panel, and remove all of the sunroof mechanism. Then remove a larger portion of the roof and replace it with a carbon fiber panel. Then remove the entire roof and replace it with carbon fiber. The rear quarter panels are connected to the roof, and the trunk lid is the equivalent of the sunroof panel, so you might as well carbon fiber those, too. Where does it stop? At what point do we decide it's no longer a "weenie" protest?

The whole idea behind "weenie protests" were that they were protests about stuff that doesn't give you a performance advantage. If that's the case, why make the change in the first place? In your example of a lightweight sunroof-skin retrofit, I'd say it's a weenie protest if the sunroof-skin didn't offer any sort of performance benefit. But if it doesn't, why do it in the first place? If it does give you an advantage, then it's clearly not a weenie protest.

Then there's the cost factor - people I know who are serious about their competition cars have searched long and hard to find cars without sunroofs, and with the correct option package for the class. Some times even paying a premium for a car with the right factory provenance. So now you're penalizing those competitors for doing their homework and working within the rules?

Anyway, my opinion is that rules are rules, and the ONLY way we have to enforce the rules is the protest mechanism. If someone steps over the line, they're fair game for a protest. Sure it's more sporting to try to discuss the issue first, and the discussion should definitely happen at the local level. But if you are competing at a national event, then you should know the rules and follow them. IMHO, at a national level, there's absolutely no such thing as a "weenie" protest.

Jim

[megatron]

your point is well taken, and yes rules are rules.

my intent was that because it is "street modified", perhaps there should be some room to do a mod "halfway" in the name of keeping the car "streetable" in the capacity it was before - in this case, having a working sunroof.

if in 2004, one can gut the sunroof mechanism out and replace it with a welded in panel to save weight, then I think there should be some allowance for someone to do a "halfway" mod by replacing just the sunroof skin and keeping the roof mechanism in place.

i posed a similar question on the stu yahoo group with regards to doing a carbon fiber rear seat. the intent is the same. do the mod halfway with a compromise towards the "street" in street modified. the response from most was basically: there's nothing in rules that says you can, but since you can remove the whole rear seat anyway, you probably won't see any complaints.

perhaps on these specific issues, it just makes sense to get some street modders who share a similar opinion together and write to the seb about it and get a clarification or amendment. being a lowly local-level autoxer with only one national tour under his belt, i don't think i would even be heard, however.

ryan

[John in Houston]

Originally posted by megatron
...i posed a similar question on the stu yahoo group with regards to doing a carbon fiber rear seat. the intent is the same. do the mod halfway with a compromise towards the "street" in street modified. the response from most was basically: there's nothing in rules that says you can, but since you can remove the whole rear seat anyway, you probably won't see any complaints

But see, this is the difference. You can remove the rear seat (or add a CF seat) because the rules specifically say you can. Adding or changing a seat that you can remove via the rules is not an infraction. You can't add a CF sunroof cover because the rules don't specifically allow it or any other modification to the roof or sunroof assembly.

If the SM rules don't specifically allow it, then you fall back to the SP rules. If the SP rules don't specifically allow it, then it is illegal and protestable.

The 'no weenies' rule (which I also don't like) is meant to cover things like dents in the firewall to clear the distributor of the 366 ci motor you just dropped in your Ford Escort. I wouldn't count on the 'no weenies' rule for anything... because it won't hold up infront of the protest committee.

FWIW, I am very familiar with SM and the rules making procedure. I was involved with SM before it was a class. I am the infamous owner of the 'Blatantly Illegal' mustang that DG is so eager to tout. I modified the car within the 'spirit' of the rules. Bolt-on parts that are common on the street. Then the 'final' rules come about and now it's illegal.

So, I (along with others) start a campaign to get said parts (tubular K-members if you are interested) made legal. 2 years and nothing. So I drop the car and go to BSP in the M3. Now DG feels that tubular K-members are within the spirit of the class and should be made legal. WTF?

Oh yeah, I also ran that 'Blatantly Illegal' car at Nationals in 2000 & 2001. Everyone knew the car was illegal and I gave them full access to all of the information about the car. I fully expected to be protested if I placed. The point was to run the car and show that the parts added did not make it a 'class-killer'. Oh well. 7th in 2000 and who cares in 2001 (sept 11th I was running while the planes were hitting the towers). Did it work... sorta. I helped them make class both years (when numbers meant something). K-members are still not allowed... so I failed there.

Anyway, blah.... blah... blah... don't depend on the NWR!

[megatron]

thanks guys for the clarfication.

so, as an aside. i have a 951 and access to a 968 and let's say i decide to run one of them in sm2. hell, even in asp or bs for that matter. the sunroof of those cars are removable and people routinely remove them during an ax for head clearance and to loose weight out of the top of the car - even in stock class. so is that ok to replace the skin on that with a carbon panel?

ryan

[Erik@EDGE]

My understanding is that if it's already removeable (like a targa top or t-top) then you could theoretically replace it with another material providing it doesn't add any structural rigidity or other advantage. I don't have my rulebook here in front of me, though, so that may be inaccurate at some level