Someone money shifted my car today

[FranzE21]

Since there have been no updates to this, I assume we can resume discussions regarding a similar topic.

So.. Question:

I notice both you, Atilla and CJ are running the bigger Tii 228mm clutch setup. I was wondering what the advantages are over the 215mm setup which comes stock with the 80's m10's with the 5 speed overdrive gearbox, of which I plan to swap over to my 2.2L. I understand Josh that you have 250hp and alot of torque to handle, so potentially the 228mm setup could make the clutch pedal a little bit softer ( I think?) but aside from that, whats wrong with the lighter 215mm setup? Is it weak? Problems with balance or revs?


To let you know where I'm going with this, I'm trying to decide on the clutch setup im aiming for on my N/A 2.2l engine build, which will be shooting for 180-200hp, or more importantly a significant amount of torque. My issue is simply, driveline weight and I'm attempting to reduce powerloss from engine to wheels.

Will a 215mm setup with a clutchnet fibre 6 puck and and clutchnet yellow pressure plate be enough to hold more than 185 ft/tq ? (250nm) I estimate I may end up with around 210-220nm of torque in absolute best conditions so I'm just over compensating a little.

http://www.clutchnet.com/product.php...6&cat=0&page=1

(also, what is the stock 215mm clutch setup designed to hold..torquewise)

[jrcook320]

According to metric mechanic, the stock 215mm clutch will break away at 155 ft-lbs of torque. The stock 228mm will hold over 200 ft-lbs (230 ft-lbs?? I don't remember the number he quoted me right now, i've probably posted that up in clutch discussion threads before though). My stock 215mm clutch held over 200 hp for about 1 month before it started slipping...

The design of the 215mm pressure plate is weaker because of the orientation of the strapping bands. In stock form with a stock disc that's not a big deal, but in a high hp application with a metallic 4 puc, it's a crap shoot if you're dumping the clutch, power shifting or drag racing.

I've personally experienced 2 broken 2 215mm pressure plates when coupled with a 4 puc disc, both times I was NOT driving the car and the car was being abused severely, but they did break.

With a fiber-carbon 6 puc, I'm sure it will be fine since the engagement won't be as aggressive. I'm not sure how much torque that setup will hold, you may need to step up to the red pressure plate (the pedal won't be too stiff). Call up clutchnet and ask them. They may tell you your best bet is a metallic 6 puc or the red pressure plate.

Also consider talking to TEP. Clutchnet is their supplier for discs, and they can also provide upgraded pressure plates for much less than what clutchnet charges.

[jjgbmw323]

Cool stuff.

Josh I know you just had a baby and did major work on your truck.
Are you planning a full rebuild/ fresh build of your M10, any time soon and will you able to use the clutch/flywheel setup that you have now on your new build?

[E21Adam]

Josh, I feel like the next logical upgrade is a P84. It might not drop right in, but it would probably be pretty sweet.

[jrcook320]

Cool stuff.

Josh I know you just had a baby and did major work on your truck.
Are you planning a full rebuild/ fresh build of your M10, any time soon and will you able to use the clutch/flywheel setup that you have now on your new build?

no immediate plans, though I do have a spare block and a knife edged s14 crank for when the time comes.

Josh, I feel like the next logical upgrade is a P84. It might not drop right in, but it would probably be pretty sweet.

lol, wut?

[E21Adam]

I'm pretty sure it was secretly designed for an e21



925hp should do the trick.

[jrcook320]

oh man, that would be surely be streetable!

[TheNeek]

oh man, that would be surely be streetable!

Just gotta find the right clutch

[epmedia]

I thought it was over 1000hp?
Anyways, that engine design has been on my mind since the first time I saw it a few months ago. Friggin awesome how they created a "two head" design on a 4cyl, and make it look like a V8. I wish I had a machine shop and some $$ to play with.

I'm pretty sure it was secretly designed for an e21

///

925hp should do the trick.

[jrcook320]

I thought it was over 1000hp?
Anyways, that engine design has been on my mind since the first time I saw it a few months ago. Friggin awesome how they created a "two head" design on a 4cyl, and make it look like a V8. I wish I had a machine shop and some $$ to play with.

lol, dude, that is a 90 degree 3.0L v10.

[FranzE21]

That is one hell of a motor..

Okay so Josh, is an upgraded 215mm setup able to handle a high power N/A setup? I could always ask for more strapping bands on the pressure plate, or would the 228mm setup be more cost effective given the obvious gains.

Also.. is the 228mm setup bolt on to the getrag 245 or does it require some modification? I'm asking as I am unsure of the clearances inside the bell housing.

Thanks again, much obliged.

[ApexinMCoupe]

Sorry..needless to say, money shifts are like eating donuts, and investing in the stock market when it goes 700 points down in one day.

Don't do them cause money shifts on BMW = lots of headaches and money.

They are know for wiping out e36 engines with one shift. $uck!
I know it was an accident Josh, but get him to give you some coin to cover something of the new engine.


With my dogleg I am worried about this happening to my new 2.9 m20.

Sounds like you have to rebuild your engine. I would go the s14 rods and crank route.

mmmm.. dogleg

[jrcook320]

That is one hell of a motor..

Okay so Josh, is an upgraded 215mm setup able to handle a high power N/A setup? I could always ask for more strapping bands on the pressure plate, or would the 228mm setup be more cost effective given the obvious gains.

Also.. is the 228mm setup bolt on to the getrag 245 or does it require some modification? I'm asking as I am unsure of the clearances inside the bell housing.

Thanks again, much obliged.

Sure, an upgraded 215mm can hold the torque of a high power NA setup, it depends on what you get but there are options out there that will do it. I had a 215mm 4 puc holding 240-250 hp and would have probably held wel over 300 with no problem. I think a heavy duty organic disc with an upgraded PP might hold it, and I think a fiber-carbon 6 puc with upgraded PP would be even better. The 6 puc discs (fiber or metallic) require more clamping force than a 4 puc. If you're really going to be flogging this thing (drag strip, street racing, autox), they may suggest a metallic 6 puc. Again, I suggest you call them and ask.

Added strapping bands may make the pressure plate stonger (less likely to break), but it won't increase the clamping force. Clamping force comes from the diaphragm. If needed they can heat treat the diaphragm on a stock pressure plate to make it harder and yield higher clamping pressure. My 228mm TEP clutch has had this treatment.

[Layne]

I wish I had a machine shop and some $$ to play with.

Yeah 'cause that's all it really takes, you don't need any knowledge or skills or anything. I HAVE a machine shop and some $$, and I have yet to build a V10 better than BMW does.

Friggin awesome how they created a "two head" design on a 4cyl, and make it look like a V8.

I think you're confusing it with another (much older) engine that BMW has there in the same museum. It's not two heads, but it does have an exhaust on both sides and dual intakes in the center. Fiat (or Abarth) had one like it back in the 70's.

[E21Adam]

I HAVE a machine shop and some $$, and I have yet to build a V10 better than BMW does.

Well, I here BMW has some freed up engineers if you want to try. I'll take one. I can pay you in e21s.

[pastaroni34]

The design of the 215mm pressure plate is weaker because of the orientation of the strapping bands. In stock form with a stock disc that's not a big deal, but in a high hp application with a metallic 4 puc, it's a crap shoot if you're dumping the clutch, power shifting or drag racing.

Rapid decceleration and hard clutch engagement are what kills strapping bands. Another solution to the strapping bands breaking problem is to get rid of them all together and replace them with dowel pins. Instead of a strap from the clutch housing keeping the pressure plate from rotating, you have dowel pins in the flywheel that the pressure plate slides up and down on. Think of it more like a 3 piece assembly, where the pressure plate is no longer attached to the clutch housing. It does require some machining to the flywheel and pressure plate though.

-Jason Miller

[jrcook320]

Rapid decceleration and hard clutch engagement are what kills strapping bands. Another solution to the strapping bands breaking problem is to get rid of them all together and replace them with dowel pins. Instead of a strap from the clutch housing keeping the pressure plate from rotating, you have dowel pins in the flywheel that the pressure plate slides up and down on. Think of it more like a 3 piece assembly, where the pressure plate is no longer attached to the clutch housing. It does require some machining to the flywheel and pressure plate though.

-Jason Miller

cool, sounds kind of like a twin disc setup...

By the way, thanks again for an awesome flywheel!!

[epmedia]

lol, dude, that is a 90 degree 3.0L v10.

Oh crap ...

This is the one I saw in a thread awhile back:
2.0L, with over 1000 hp?
1966 BMW Formula 2 Apfelbeck Engine



I'll edit this since pommeree's comment :::

It was similar to the above engine with twin turbos. All I could find similar? is the "Brabham BT52 engine".
Anyways - I really don't know, I just think it's a cool design .
Here's an interesting article, no pics thou - bummer: http://www.research-racing.de/bmwturbo.htm
sorry about the thread jack...

[pommeree]

Must ... steer ... thread ... into ... ditch!

Head of BMW Motors, Alexander von Falkenhausen, creates a new engine: based on the 2 litre engine of the BMW 2000 TI, the 16-valve powerplant produces 260 hp. Known as the Apfelbeck engine, it propels a modified Brabham Formula Two car through eight world records in 1966 alone. This engine is the Formula Two ticket for BMW and drivers such as Hubert Hahne, Dieter Quester, Jacky Ickx and Jo Siffert.

[FranzE21]

I had a thought after discussing this with dad and Josh this question is for you. How did you solve your slipping problem, did you actually swap in a red pressure plate from the assumed yellow rating previous one?

And a question from Dad, is it possible that your problems of slippage revolved not around the actual pressure from the pressure plate but the preload of the forks? I assumed its kinda like, having you suspension setup for a certain weight of the car, then stripping 400kg out and having the car rise. if you were to push on the bumper it would feel softer than if it were heavier and the springs have compressed more increasing the rate per in or whatever.

Fill me in boss, I'm shooting for gold here with an email to Jason Miller and one to Tep, its probably best I know what I'm talking about and not waste either Jasons time or Teps.

Cheers man/guys/lads.

Hal

[jrcook320]

I replied to your pm but I'll reply here to. The clutch didn't fix itself, it just wasn't broken in yet when it was slipping. It would only slip when it was cold. It took it a few hundred miles to break in, after that it has held everything I can throw at it with ease.

Now it bites hard and doesn't slip at all, warm or cold, no matter how hard I shift or what gear I'm in. It is also much more streetable than the metallic, chatter minimal and it's slippable when you need it to be. There is plenty of preload with my pressure plate. It's not a "yellow" or "red" from clutchnet, it's a stock 228mm that has been dissassembled, diaphragm heat treated for higher clamp load, and reassembled with upgraded hardware. The hydraulics are self adjusting so throw out bearing height and flywheel hieght aren't all that critical as long as everything fits and has the travel it needs.

As for the spring analogy, on a single rate spring, spring rate absolutely does not change, even if the springs sag over time. In other words, if you put 5 diabetic clowns in the back seat and you push on the bumper, it will deflect the same amount given your 100 lbs of down force as it would if the car were gutted. A spring rate of 100 lbs/in means that it will compress 1 inch per 100 lbs of force. If it's already loaded with 500 lbs, it will sag 5" from it's free length. If you apply another 100 lbs, it will compress another inch.

[alpina323c1]

Hey Josh !!! congrates . I'm a big fan of your car and the work that you do, It's inspiring and very helpfull .

keep up the good work and let us know how it all works out .......
Cheers Alpina323c1

[Electric Space]

Why is it called 'money shift'? Is it cause it costs money to fix it when you do it? I've never heard that term before.

[jjgbmw323]

Why is it called 'money shift'? Is it cause it costs money to fix it when you do it? I've never heard that term before.

In the E36 world its well know term, as a mis-shift results in a large capital outflow = death of tranny and or engine. Its a pretty common occurance, from what i have read on those boards....

[Electric Space]

I see now. I did that in my yellow rolla when it had the 1j in it and busted the shift fork for 1st/2nd! Man that sucked hahah Didn't cost me an engine or trans tho!