Someone money shifted my car today

[charbel]

that sucks.. big time.. i will not let anyone drives my car again.. good luck

[jrcook320]

I talked to Jason this evening, his aluminum flywheel is $360!

That's a great bargain. He mentioned that the 228 mm flywheel was a waste since he could machine the 215mm flywheel to accept the 228 clutch. My first thought was, is there room for the 240mm clutch as well? I'm going to take some measurements tonight to see if there's room and if so I'll probably go that route.

Jason't flywheels are definitely sub-$500 though I don't have the actual prices. He can make them out of billet steel or aluminum, the steel is pretty popular actually. Of course it can be much thinner than cast iron or aluminum, so they can actually get down to the same weight as aluminum ones. At that point I see no reason not to use the 240mm clutch from an M30, the trans spline is the same.

[blitzed310]

Damn that sucks man, I'm sure it will be better then before though.

I talked to Jason this evening, his aluminum flywheel is $360!

That's a great bargain. He mentioned that the 228 mm flywheel was a waste since he could machine the 215mm flywheel to accept the 228 clutch. My first thought was, is there room for the 240mm clutch as well? I'm going to take some measurements tonight to see if there's room and if so I'll probably go that route.

Wow, wish I knew this earlier. I have a 228mm flywheel from a 323i, not really relevant to you as the ring gear is different, but they are swappable. If you want it, you can have it for what I paid plus the machine work done to it.

[Layne]

I talked to Jason this evening, his aluminum flywheel is $360!

That's a great bargain. He mentioned that the 228 mm flywheel was a waste since he could machine the 215mm flywheel to accept the 228 clutch. My first thought was, is there room for the 240mm clutch as well? I'm going to take some measurements tonight to see if there's room and if so I'll probably go that route.

Since someday before I die I plan to have a fast 320i too, I've been inspired to get into this problem a little. I'm trying to see if anyone will donate me an old 240mm clutch to do some test fitting with. Jason believes the stock flywheel can be machined to fit it, we'll see. Also gotta make sure it clears the bellhousing and everything.

This seems a little too obvious but I assume the M30 flywheel won't bolt up to an M10? (the 633i is the lightest one, possibly the only one that's not dual mass)

[Zan320]

Sorry to hear. Seems like a few of us have had bad luck with cars this week. Good luck getting it back together!

[jrcook320]

Since someday before I die I plan to have a fast 320i too, I've been inspired to get into this problem a little. I'm trying to see if anyone will donate me an old 240mm clutch to do some test fitting with. Jason believes the stock flywheel can be machined to fit it, we'll see. Also gotta make sure it clears the bellhousing and everything.

This seems a little too obvious but I assume the M30 flywheel won't bolt up to an M10? (the 633i is the lightest one, possibly the only one that's not dual mass)

I measured a stock 215mm flywheel last night and I don't think there is room for the 228mm clutch disc. The OD of the 228mm flywheel is around 11", with a tape measure I got 10 9/16" OD (sorry, don't have calipers that big). From Jason's S14 flywheel print, the 228mm pressure plate bolt circle is on a 5.217" radius (10.43" dia), so there's no material to mount the 228mm pressure plate on the 215mm flywheel.

I know for a fact that Metric Mechanic can sell me a 240mm clutche/flywheel combo for the m10 for $800. I don't really want to dump $800 on a clutch. I assume they are either machining the 228mm flywheel to accept the 240mm pressure plate, OR, they are machining the 240mm flywheel to accept the m10 ring gear, or is the m10 and m30 ring gear the same? Thanks for the help Layne. Once we figure out the flywheel issue the next step is throw out bearing and shifter fork (will the stock components work?)

If the 633i flywheel bolts up and clears the bell housing it seems that would be the way to go. I wonder how much torque the stock 240mm clutch will hold.. If it's over 300 or 350 ft-lbs I could just run a stock clutch!!

[Layne]

This much I do know, M10 and M30 starters are physically interchangable, and the bellhousing pattern is the same. That would lead one to believe that the flywhheel is the same diameter, and the ring gear is the same.

[E21Adam]

Josh, I'm going to be pulling apart my e12 528i parts car this weekend (maybe sooner) if you'd like the clutch.

[bflan2001]

although the situation does suck, i can see some positive results coming already...at the very least, now we'll all have a much better idea of which flywheels/clutches will work on the M10! i know it's a small consolation to you Josh, but I appreciate your work (and layne's), fwiw.

[jrcook320]

I did a leak down test on a cold motor (I know the rings won't seal on a cold motor but I'm not worried about the rings). I had a bad o-ring on my plug fitting preventing a good test on Sunday. I got inconsistent results and did the test about 5 times on each cylinder. The last couple readings were probably the best, I found that if you rock the motor slightly at TDC the rings will seat (crank case blow by would reduce drastically when doing that).

Here were my results (cold motor):
#1 - 25% leak down, significant noise and air flow out the intake valve 4 measurements in a row (rotating the motor each time), none out the exhaust
#2 - 20-25% leak down, slight noise out the intake valve, none out the exhaust
#3 - 15-20% leak down, no noise out intake or exhaust on the last 3 times I measured, slight noise out the intake on 2nd measurement
#4 - 10-15% leak down, no noise out intake or exhaust on the last 3 times I measured

I removed the BOV and listened for intake valve leakage with the throttle body wide open using a rubber hose as a "stethescope". I took a match and blew it out and held it over my BOV port just in front of the throttle body and I had unmistakable air flow out the #1 intake valve. I could feel it by hand with out a doubt as well. After consistent leaking for 4 full engine rotations I rotated the motor 1 full rotation and it went away, no intake valve noise, no air flow. I rotated another full rotation and again nothing. I'm baffled. The only explanation is a sightly bent intake valve that doesn't always seat. I'll do the test a few times again today or tomorrow and see what I find. I'm also going to make some phone calls to TEP, bavarian engine exchange and metric mechanic to see what they say.

Josh, I'm going to be pulling apart my e12 528i parts car this weekend (maybe sooner) if you'd like the clutch.

Heck yeah man, I'm all over it. thanks! At the very least I can use it for cheap measurement purposes. You're the man.

[TheNeek]

That is weird.

It's possible that the valve (if it's bent) is clocking itself in the seat. At certain clocking locations it seals, in others it doesn't? Just brainstorming. I know the valves spin slightly during operation. Could explain a few things.

You pulled the rocker cover yet? It would defy logic but the adjuster may have moved itself out? Worth trying as it's easy to get to. You could inspect the rockers too, and the rocker shaft. Good news is that whatever it is doesn't seem to be catastrophic.

There is a guy at work that races dirt go-karts... he brought in the piston, wristpin, and connector rod from his motor. Lets just say he wasn't rebuilding the motor when these parts were removed

Good Luck!

[TKO383]

That is weird.

It's possible that the valve (if it's bent) is clocking itself in the seat. At certain clocking locations it seals, in others it doesn't? Just brainstorming. I know the valves spin slightly during operation. Could explain a few things.

You pulled the rocker cover yet? It would defy logic but the adjuster may have moved itself out? Worth trying as it's easy to get to. You could inspect the rockers too, and the rocker shaft. Good news is that whatever it is doesn't seem to be catastrophic.

He has the valve cover off.

It is unlikely but possible that the valve is seating sometimes and sometimes not. It largely depends on how much slop is in the actual valve guide itself. If the valve is only slightly bent, it is possible that it moves around in the guide and seals some times and does not seal others. It's obviously a very slight amount. Thats why he doesn't have a huge obvious compression loss. However under boost, even a small leak like this could quickly burn the valve depending on how thick the margin is.

Taking an otherwise healthy engine apart sucks. Moneyshifting = FAIL

[vtgti]

I've never actually heard the term "money shift" before. Always learning I suppose.

FWIW, I'm going to be building up my new engine with an S14 crank over the next month or so too, assuming you need to go that far.

[blitzed310]

I've never actually heard the term "money shift" before. Always learning I suppose.

When I was learning to drive manual my dad told me to watch the money shift. It's called the money shift because that one little shift will be the epicenter of your bank account being reduced to rubble.

[TheNeek]

PCCV system unplugged from the intake? One of my friends was able to diagnose a ring problem by finding the leak in the crank case rather than the intake.

My apologies if I'm going over the same stuff you guys have already done. You're both smarty pants when it comes to engines (more so than I ever will be).

[TKO383]

You are correct. Another common practice is to pull the dipstick and listen there or feel for air moving. He was testing on a cold engine so he had some blowby, but rocking the crank back and fourth slightly helped seal things up a little better.

I wasn't there but apparently the "match trick" (place a smoldering match or cigarette near intake, crank case vent, or exhaust and watch the smoke) made if pretty evident that there was air coming through the intake. If he is able to roll the engine around and recreate that condition tonight, that pretty much condemns all the intake valves as suspect.

Overall it's not that big of a deal. It beats the heck out of throwing a rod out the side. He has an extra set of valves that can be cut, and then just have the seats in the head touched and he should be good to go. I have a valve cutting station and a seat cutting stones, but my truing diamond for the seat cutter is not accurate enough for a 3 angle job which I'm assuming his head has. He just needs the valves and seats re-cut and he can clean and re-assemble the head, or I can. Should not be that costly other than time.

Josh, looks like it's time to "dump the bavarian boat anchor and swap in a big block!"

[TheNeek]

Josh, looks like it's time to "dump the bavarian boat anchor and swap in a big block!"

I'm sure you've got one in a closet for him to use.

[jrcook320]

That's ok Nic. I'm no expert, I'm learning as I go here. My PCV already just vents to atmosphere and dumps down by the trans. I originally had it hooked into the intake for 1 day, as soon as I hit boost it pressurized the intake and blew the dipstick tube out. lol.

That is a great suggestion though, it would otherwise cause the intake blow by I'm hearing.

There is no visible damage to the valve train and this head has around 34000 miles on it. Rocker clearance seems inconsistent between cylinders but I do have gap on all 8 rockers which suggests the valves aren't being hung open by too tight rocker clearance. I just adjust the valves less than 5000 miles ago but I'll adjust them again. At some point I'm going to have to make a judgement call from the information collected during testing. At this point I'm not sure this warrants tearing the motor down, but I'm also not sure I'm comfortable leaving the motor as it is. I drive this car HARD, it will see autox, track days and drag strip time this summer. The motor needs to be in top shape to stand up to it.

I'm sure you've got one in a closet for him to use.

lol, I'm gonna drop in a 572 crate motor! 700 hp here we come!

[TheNeek]

It's just REALLY odd that you can get the leak to go away when you turn the motor. It's almost like the valve or rocker, or whatever else actuates the valve is hanging up on something.

[E21Adam]

lol, I'm gonna drop in a 572 crate motor! 700 hp here we come!

Don't forget the Powerglide!

[Layne]

Freaking sweet, I found a free M30 clutch like 10 miles from Jason's shop. I'll try to get some news ASAP on how it's going to fit.

[TKO383]

I'm sure you've got one in a closet for him to use.

Acutally I have one dissassembled in the bathtub right now...

It's just REALLY odd that you can get the leak to go away when you turn the motor. It's almost like the valve or rocker, or whatever else actuates the valve is hanging up on something.

I totally agree. I still feel that it is a long shot that the valves are bent, but it's hard to dispute when the engine fails the "match test" If he can't recreate the leak with subsequent testing, I say put the clutch in and start driving it again and see what happens.

Don't forget the Powerglide!

BWAHAHAH I totally forgot, that would be the icing on the cake. Swapping a big block and a 'glide in a car like that would be awesome. He could go from 0 to hillbilly in 3 seconds!

[jrcook320]

Freaking sweet, I found a free M30 clutch like 10 miles from Jason's shop. I'll try to get some news ASAP on how it's going to fit.

awesome. I appreciate the help.

I've been searching for parts interchangeability.

The 528i/633i use the same pressure plate, the 635csi uses a different pressure plate. All three use the same clutch disc. Bavauto lists the same hi performance sachs pressure plate for all 3 cars so I assume the 633 and 635csi pressure plates are interchangable.

All 3 use the same throwout bearing and arm as the 320i. This suggests to me that running a 240mm clutch may be as simple as swapping flywheels. Seems too good to be true.

Layne, do you know how much the 633csi flywheel weighs?

I talked to Jim at metric mechanic over lunch about clutch options. I am more confused now than I was.

there are 3 options to run the 240mm clutch.

1)The stock 240 flywheel will bolt up but the stock pressure plate won't clear teh getrag 245/240 bell housing without clearance machine work on the bell housing. He mentioned that he has done this in house with a large boring bar. I could probably do it myself so I'm leaving that option open but not sure about that option. The stock 240mm clutch will hold ~360 ft-lbs. I assume this option would require the shorter 25mm throw out bearing and longer 28mm flywheel bolts like the 228mm flywheel does.

2)The second option is a 325e 228mm flywheel with a 240mm pressure plate that bolts up and clears the bell housing. He machines a .200" recess on that flywheel to make room for the pressure plate which I think he said was a dual mass pressure plate with a single mass disc (he went back and forth a few times). It was unclear what exactly which pressure plate this was. After lightening this flywheels comes out to 12.5 lbs. It could also use the stock throw out bearing because the stack height is the same. I could then use a stock organic clutch disc and it would hold over 300 ft-lbs of torque, but not hold as much. I meant to ask him about the ring gear of that flywheel but I assume it's the wrong ring gear from CJ's experience. This options will run between $950-$1000.

3) A 3rd options was to use the 240mm pressure plate from a v6 capri which has a 240mm friction surface but a different bolt pattern. this requires machine work to the flywheel but the pressure plate will clear the bell housing.

I don't want to spend $1000 on a clutch right now. I look forward to getting my hands on that 528i flywheel/clutch from Adam to seeing how much clearance grinding would be required and what the stack height is off the crank flange, as well as the bolt pattern of the pressure plate.

[EFreak]

The 533i/633i both use the lighter flywheel, it's about 14 pounds. I would avoid the factory clutch, they slip rather easily, go with the e28 M5 disc, it was a very nice upgrade to my old 535is and had STRONG engagement.

[Layne]

Hmm, that is confusing. Personally I plan to run a 265 transmission, so I should have no issues. Just need a 633 flywheel and a M5 clutch.

So it sounds like option #1 doesn't fit due to the extra thickness of the M30 flywheel? So if you machined a M10 flywheel to accept that clutch like Jason wanted to do in the first place it might clear? Since you're machining it anyway though you could just go to the capri pressure plate.

Unfortunately clutches are expensive and I can see how they run up to a grand when you add new parts with machine work and sourcing used flywheels.