Someone money shifted my car today

[Jmabarone]

Only one argument here: the faster the rpm's between shifts means that rev-matching will take longer, won't it?

Robert

depends on your gear spacing, I suppose. well, depends on tons of things...gear spacing, how fast you can shift, how you let off the clutch...it could probably go on. I understand your point though, if your a shift requires a 1000rpm drop, and you can shift relatively fast, you might actually only allow the engine to drop 800rpm.
Jake

[jrcook320]

a guy named Posche created the volkswagen. Also every engineer Ive worked with needed people like me to make their dreams a reality. I do like your car though. Good luck getting it going.

That is common knowledge and your statement may have been true in 1965. It is not true today. So what, you're an accountant or a machinist? Good for you, though I don't see how that makes your unwelcome opinions relevant here.

Advice was given so I gave some back.

No, you asked a question, it was answered appropriately and correctly, then you felt the need to voice your opinion about some else's car preference in a rude and arrogant manner. What you gave back is not advice, merely argumentative opinion. If you continue polluting my thread I will report you.

[DrewDude320i]

Also a porsche is an overglorified, expensive to maintain Volkswagen. Thats my advice.

sigh...


and a M3 is an over glorified, expensive to maintain 3 series,
and a Lexus is an over glorified, expensive to maintain Toyota,
and an Infiniti is an over glorified, expensive to maintain Nissan,
and a Lamborghini is an over glorified, expensive to maintain Audi,
and a Jag is an over glorified, expensive to maintain Ford,
and a Volvo is an over glorified, expensive to maintain Ford,
and a Bugatti Veyron an over glorified, expensive to maintain Jetta.
and a Ferrari is an over glorified, expensive to maintain Fiat.


What's your point?

Wait...you don't even have an E21 in your list of cars - why are you here? Stop trolling.

[jrcook320]

Exactly. Well or you could just stay on the power through the shift and burn the clutch out (if you are racing I don't see why not to do this unless it's an enduro).

If the clutch works the way it's supposed to, it won't burn out. It will engage and lock, regardless of engine speed vs. wheel speed. What happens next is either RPM's drop, wheels spin, gears break, or transmission case blows apart. lol

Only one argument here: the faster the rpm's between shifts means that rev-matching will take longer, won't it?

Robert

no, rev matching (up or down) can be done faster because r's will change faster. If you shift too slow you will have to maintain r's with the throttle when upshifting.

[epmedia]

depends on your gear spacing, I suppose. well, depends on tons of things...gear spacing, how fast you can shift, how you let off the clutch...it could probably go on. I understand your point though, if your a shift requires a 1000rpm drop, and you can shift relatively fast, you might actually only allow the engine to drop 800rpm.
Jake

Yea, I'm assuming that's why my old 2nd gear syncro is shot - always tried to shift it faster than the inertia wait-time.

Robert

[Jmabarone]

Yea, I'm assuming that's why my old 2nd gear syncro is shot - always tried to shift it faster than the inertia wait-time.

Robert

I actually outshift my engine/transmission in my truck at times. 1st-2nd, mainly, because the gearing is terrible. my old truck was terrible. you pretty much had to count to 5 when going for 3rd...
I want to drive a car with a fresh transmission at least once in my life.
Jake

[DYNAMIKE]

The advice reply was directed to reply #89. When porsche gives an award to BMW for their v8 design, to me that means something. The camaro thing, I was just wondering what a camaro guy would know about a BMW. Sure alot of people know all the different things about an e21 but do they actually know how to work on one? Some not. Half the threads on this forum are what wheel space to run, so you never know where some people are coming from. Like I said, nice car good luck with it.

[epmedia]

no, rev matching (up or down) can be done faster because r's will change faster. If you shift too slow you will have to maintain r's with the throttle when upshifting.

I tried to say - with the lighter flywheel, rev-matching will be easier (more responsive with throttle, less wait-time for inertia).

I like the idea of lighter flywheel (I just cannot afford one .

Robert

[DYNAMIKE]

And Ive had six E21's

[epmedia]

The advice reply was directed to reply #89. When porsche gives an award to BMW for their v8 design, to me that means something. The camaro thing, I was just wondering what a camaro guy would know about a BMW. Sure alot of people know all the different things about an e21 but do they actually know how to work on one? Some not. Half the threads on this forum are what wheel space to run, so you never know where some people are coming from. Like I said, nice car good luck with it.

More than one Chevy folks here .

I grew up with Chevys; 62, 69, assortments, and other GM's.

'53 Harvester, 74 Fiat, couple of Pontiacs, Two e21's, '79 928, '94 325, Quite a mix actually (the 928 was my fathers, the 325 is my daughters).

Lots of cars, worked on all of them, not to mention some classified propulsion systems.

BTW: I don't know much about wheel spacing - only dynamics .

Take Care, Robert

[EFreak]

And Ive had six E21's

Did any of them live?

[DYNAMIKE]

Ive had 20 cars give or take, all sort of different makes. All worked just as good or better when I got rid of them. Done all work on all my cars, friends and family. Do jrcook a favor and stop acknowledging my replys so I dont have to reply and Ill stay off this thread.

[jrcook320]

someone answer this question:

Will an m20 e30 325i clutch fit on a standard 2002 228mm flywheel? It appears CJ and attilla are running this setup, and bavauto lists teh same part number for the sachs sport pressure plate but not the standard pressure plate.

I'm considering the Spec stage 3 clutch for the 325i. The have different part numbers listed for the 325i, 325e and early 2002. The 325i is the cheapest at $389. Why are they different?

It's a sprung hub 6 puc carbon-graphite disc with uprated pressure plate rated to hold 340 ft-lbs.

Compare this to a fiber-carbon (not sure how this differs from carbon-graphite) 6 puc and upgraded sachs sport pressure plate from TEP for $425, or similar "red" 6 puc clutch from clutchnet.com for $620.

Joe, thanks for the link, this could be a winner.

[blitzed310]

someone answer this question:

Will an m20 e30 325i clutch fit on a standard 2002 228mm flywheel? It appears CJ and attilla are running this setup, and bavauto lists teh same part number for the sachs sport pressure plate but not the standard pressure plate.

I'm considering the Spec stage 3 clutch for the 325i. The have different part numbers listed for the 325i, 325e and early 2002. The 325i is the cheapest at $389. Why are they different?

It's a sprung hub 6 puc carbon-graphite disc with uprated pressure plate rated to hold 340 ft-lbs.

Compare this to a fiber-carbon (not sure how this differs from carbon-graphite) 6 puc and upgraded sachs sport pressure plate from TEP for $425, or similar "red" 6 puc clutch from clutchnet.com for $620.

Joe, thanks for the link, this could be a winner.

Confirmed a 2002 228mm FW will mate to a E30 325i clutch (my setup). I can not answer why they are diff part numbers for the PP, I would ask R3V this question. I would use the one from the 325i though, I would assume that the 325i would be the best match as I am assuming the thought process was that the 325i would yield the most output out of the 3.

[BoostedE21]

Yeah not sure why they are different part numbers, but they work. :

[E21Adam]

Maybe it's just because 2002 guys usually have more money to blow

[jrcook320]

Do either of you guys happen to know what TO bearing you're running?

I just checked and the 2002 stage 3 is only $369 with TO, pilot and alignment tool. The guy told me the e21 and e30 have the same TO bearing listed but the 02 uses a different part number.

metric mechanic says that the G245 with 228mm flywheel needs to use a 25mm TO bearing instead of the 42mm bearing, but doesn't list part numbers. I just want to make sure I get the parts I need with the spec clutch.

[BoostedE21]

Do either of you guys happen to know what TO bearing you're running?

I just checked and the 2002 stage 3 is only $369 with TO, pilot and alignment tool. The guy told me the e21 and e30 have the same TO bearing listed but the 02 uses a different part number.

metric mechanic says that the G245 with 228mm flywheel needs to use a 25mm TO bearing instead of the 42mm bearing, but doesn't list part numbers. I just want to make sure I get the parts I need with the spec clutch.

I wish I could tell you Josh, but I got everything has a kit and it was years ago. It might be the E30 325i TO bearing because all i have from the 2002 is the flywheel and everything else from the E30, but I can't full remember.

[blitzed310]

Do either of you guys happen to know what TO bearing you're running?

I just checked and the 2002 stage 3 is only $369 with TO, pilot and alignment tool. The guy told me the e21 and e30 have the same TO bearing listed but the 02 uses a different part number.

metric mechanic says that the G245 with 228mm flywheel needs to use a 25mm TO bearing instead of the 42mm bearing, but doesn't list part numbers. I just want to make sure I get the parts I need with the spec clutch.

You need the E21/E30 TOB Part No. 21 51 1 204 525. The 2002 TO will not work.

edit/ forgot to mention this is the correct TOB for a 2002 228mm FW mated to a 228mm M20 clutch

[epmedia]

Do either of you guys happen to know what TO bearing you're running?

I just checked and the 2002 stage 3 is only $369 with TO, pilot and alignment tool. The guy told me the e21 and e30 have the same TO bearing listed but the 02 uses a different part number.

metric mechanic says that the G245 with 228mm flywheel needs to use a 25mm TO bearing instead of the 42mm bearing, but doesn't list part numbers. I just want to make sure I get the parts I need with the spec clutch.

I've Never done it before...

Are the starter ring gears identical to stock?

Is there space for the flywheel inside the bell-housing?

I'm assuming the 2002 25MM TO bearing is needed for the 2002 spec assembly because it stacks up thicker than the e21 assembly?

Interesting to know the differences - I hope somebody knows.

Robert

[jrcook320]

You need the E21/E30 TOB Part No. 21 51 1 204 525. The 2002 TO will not work.

edit/ forgot to mention this is the correct TOB for a 2002 228mm FW mated to a 228mm M20 clutch

yeah, I found your thread. I'm sure this also holds true for the 2002 228mm pressure plate.

I just got off the phone with Spec and they can't really help me with the TO bearing, I can give them the bmw part number but they can't cross reference it, and they don't have the e21 323i listed. They list the e30 323i running from '81 to '86 and say it uses the same TO bearing as the 325i, but realoem shows pre '84 323i's running the 525 bearing. arrggh.

They also said they couldn't knock the price down and sell me the clutch without a TO bearing. fail. At that point I'll be just as well to order the TEP clutch and have it all included.

[jjgbmw323]

If you call Rob Gibb at Bav Auto, or Gordon either one will be able to give you an answer, 1-800-535-2002. Rob built Ricky's car....and knows our cars very well.
but I bet the 325i TO bearing will be the one you need to work with the Spec Clutch.

You need the E21/E30 TOB Part No. 21 51 1 204 525. The 2002 TO will not work.

edit/ forgot to mention this is the correct TOB for a 2002 228mm FW mated to a 228mm M20 clutch

Yeah I think I recall you talking about that before....

[jrcook320]

Here's an update on the car.

I got my clutch and flywheel last weekend. The clutch came in and was damaged, it looks like the disc was dropped before it was even packaged so TEP is going to do a return and get a new one out to me quickly. Unfortunately, it won't be quick enough for the car to be ready for the power tour next week (like anyone on bimmerforums is aware of or even cares about the Hotrod Power Tour), so I decided to find a new pressure plate and put the old clutch back in and get the car going, then swap clutches once I get the replacement disc later this month. I was going to buy an autozone valuecraft pressure plate for $40 (Jeremy is making me a "Valuecraft Racing" sticker for the power tour ), then younggune21 gave me one he had lying around for free.

I went with a Clutchnet custom "Fiber Carbon" 6 puc clutch disc instead of the sintered copper semi metallic 6 puc hoping it will engage more smoothly on the street. It's an odd material, it actually looks like MDF fiber with carbon bits in it:








Now here is the interesting part. Metric Mechanic says that when you run a 228mm clutch with the G245 or G240 transmission (rather than the 4 speed), you have to run the 25mm throwout bearing, but they don't list the BMW part number. Everything else I've read says to use the e21 323i "525" TO bearing. When comparing it to the stock 320i TO bearing I found that the 320i bearing measures 25mm from clutch fork ears to bearing surface, while the 323i bearing measures 30mm.

320i TO Bearing:
21 51 2 226 729 - 25mm

323i TO Bearing:
21 51 1 204 525 - 30mm



Also interesting is that the 228mm flywheel (both 2002 and e30 m3) is 5mm taller than the 215mm flywheel, while the stack height of the 2002 228mm pressure plate is about 5mm shorter.

320i 215mm pressure plate height:
53.5mm (PP) + 25.8mm (flywheel) = 79.3mm total

2002 228mm pressure plate height:
47.7mm (PP) + 30.9mm (flywheel) = 78.6mm total

228mm setup on the right:






So, why on earth do you need to run the taller "525" throw out bearing when the overall stack height of the flywheel and pressure plate is almost identical? I measured almost a 10mm gap between the TO bearing and the PP fingers with the clutch fork fully depressed, which means I'm wasting that amount of slave cylinder travel with the short 320i TO bearing. Is the m20 pressure plate shorter?

Also, TEP told me that I was getting the Sachs sport pressure plate (Sachs # 88 3082 618) and that they would upgrade it even further for higher clamping pressure. It is the stock 2002 pressure plate (PN 21 21 1 251 248) which costs $100 compared to the m20 pressure plate (PN 21 21 1 223 026) which costs $65. I'm not even sure they upgraded it but that is another question I will ask TEP. My question to the forum is, they look identical, what is the difference?? Does anyone know if one has a different clamping pressure? I almost want to order an m20 PP and even a standard 325i TO bearing just to find out what they measure (I'm not gonna...)


Now, here is the pretty part; my new 228mm aluminum flywheel from Jason (millersmule.com). Jason told me he made it .140" shorter than the s14 flywheel (I assume in an attempt to get it as close to the 215mm stack height as possible), and after taking all these measurements on TO bearings I don't think it matters as long as I run the 525 TO bearing:









Reports on teh awesomeness of the flywheel and improved feel of the new clutch will have to wait until I get another clutch disc in. However, I did get the car back together last night and the motor seems to be running OK. For some reason it doesn't feel like it pulls as hard but that could be in my head...

[Beam318ti]

Nice progress Josh and thanks for keeping the thread updated.

I was able to witness the awesomeness of this car when I visited Josh last month. It was too bad that the car was on jacks with the exhaust and transmission removed when I visited. The attention to detail on this car is quite amazing.

[jrcook320]

thanks Yohan.