Talk about a definitive thread!!
Re: Rear Control Arm Bushings / Ball Joints
1) Which of the four bushing / ball joints do you think are the weakest link? Would the outer lower bushing go first?
2) How has anyone replaced these parts? I've seen several tool vendors and they all have BMW tool B333351 for $500. Is there an option for less $ Other than having a shop do the job, has anyone done a DIY on the rear control arm bushings? I'd be interested in any tips there.
TIA, as always.
2) I'm using a homemade tool that consists of two large sockets and some threaded stock. I got the "ball joint" last week and should have some feedback by next week.
Hear's the post I got the idea from. Sroll down to post #12: http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showt...hlight=sockets
Last edited by HighandFast; 09-14-2009 at 08:46 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Well, that's a disappointment. The Sport shock is the only model that Bilstein offers for the M3.
I have a question about suspension parts interchangability between the M3 and the non-M3 cars, specifically pertaining to a 1994 325i Sedan, build date of 9/93. I'd like to accomplish a couple of things:
1. Change the front swaybar mounts from the non-M3 type (linked to the control arm) to the M3 type (linked to the strut for greater leverage). To do this, I'm thinking that all I'd need to do is to change the struts from 325i struts to M3 struts and replace the non-M sway bar linkages with the the M-type sway bar linkages. Is it that simple or is there something else that would need to be changed? I'm thinking that if I buy aftermarket M3 type struts, they should come with the mounting points for the sway bar linkages already on them, right? Is there anything that I would need to change, perhaps the upper mounts?
2. Swap the four non-M coil springs out for M3 coil springs. I'm looking for a higher spring rate without lowering the car as much as a set of aftermarket lowering springs would lower the car. I'm not 100% certain on the rear shock selection though. Insofar as the non-M Bilstein Sport shock is being touted as a better setup than the M3 Bilstein Sport shock, I was considering the non-M3 Sport shock for use with the M3 springs. Would that be OK, or is the amount of travel, and the shock body length significantly different, so that doing this would be a problem?
Responded to a lot of people's comments/questions in this post, you might be one of them. I've been away for a bit, but I'm back and will continue working on this thread.
In the spirit of I am prepping a large quantity of pictures for this thread. Unsure yet how I am going to implement them into the text without having massive load times, or making editing way too difficult. These picture are pulled from threads around bimmerforums with me adding very few myself. Below is a sample of what I intend to input.
The format is 800x600 images with the target focused out, a reference direction, and the user who posted the image originally at the bottom left. I am still searching for pictures of many components, if you have good detailed pictures of any of the components listed in this guide please contact me. If you see your pictures used and you do not want that, contact me and they will be pulled and erased from my server immediately.
I think you have it nailed. You can simply swap strut housings, swap to M3 swaybar endlinks, and you're fine.
Bilstein's 328i shocks/struts are valved reasonably well, much better than their M3 kit (strangely). Remember, all shocks can be brought to an excellent standard if you're willing to put out for a revalve.2. Swap the four non-M coil springs out for M3 coil springs. I'm looking for a higher spring rate without lowering the car as much as a set of aftermarket lowering springs would lower the car. I'm not 100% certain on the rear shock selection though. Insofar as the non-M Bilstein Sport shock is being touted as a better setup than the M3 Bilstein Sport shock, I was considering the non-M3 Sport shock for use with the M3 springs. Would that be OK, or is the amount of travel, and the shock body length significantly different, so that doing this would be a problem?
When switching springs you only need concern yourself with the front as the rear shocks and springs will interchange between M and non-M just fine. The 328 and M3 use different size front springs in various combinations. I forget the exact specs (maybe I should read my own article). The components to worry about are the spring hats and the strut spring seat. If you get M3 springs you will need an M3 spring seat (M3 strut) and spring hat, and I believe these vary between ODB1 and ODB2 M3 designs even (so much for German consistency). Thus you will need to be sure to remain consistent in the type of M3 you are pulling parts from/ordering parts for.
The real reason to move to M3 geometry up front is frankly all in the control arms. M3 control arms are substantially more expensive, and substantially better in terms of quality and feel.
Frankly my job when ordering parts for my car has gotten ridiculous. I buy Superlite pads, E46 M3 rotors, E36 OBD2 M3 suspension components for certain areas, 328i suspension components in other places... blah.
Hope that helps.
If you are in a 328, the bushings (lower, attach to the camber arm) are the weaker link. The ball joints (upper, wishbone) are stronger and will last longer. M3 comes with 4x ball joints, because... they were better people in a past life, who knows.
People have used many methods. HighandFast hilighted one. My preferred route would be to pick up a press (10 ton maybe, you can get them fairly cheap) and make your own press fitments.2) How has anyone replaced these parts? I've seen several tool vendors and they all have BMW tool B333351 for $500. Is there an option for less $ Other than having a shop do the job, has anyone done a DIY on the rear control arm bushings? I'd be interested in any tips there.
Working on that now.
People often forget that for many intents and purposes, OEM stuff is GOOD. There are a few fatal flaw components out there (unlimited RTABS, non-reinforced RSMs, I'm looking at you). But in large part these cars are very nice to drive stock.
This works, but I've heard it is not good for the universal joints on the half shafts. Might be wiser to compress the spring and pull it out that way.
While I have some experience, the vast array of preference, opinion, and dazzling number of permutations there are makes it difficult to directly point to a combination and recommend them without offending somebody else. Or to encompass all possible options. I am in the processing of trying to create an accurate and forgiving 'price for performance' chart of aftermarket products, but it is truly daunting. However, your suggestion is noted.
Done. Any other spelling/grammar/general errors anybody's taken notice of?
Pretty bushings. And yes, both of the connection points on the trailing arm will accept a ball joint [33-32-6-775-551]. This is how the M3 is set up stock, and it is an improvement over the ordinary lower bushing, upper ball joint.
Sport Package parts will tend to be slightly uprated (16" wheels, thicker swaybars, slightly lower and stiffer springs, etc...). However, for the price of moving to a sport package setup you can easily spend only slightly more and move to an aftermarket setup which will be much better again than even an M3 design. So in short yes, every sport package component is compatible.
I am unsure what failure symptoms are. Generally adjustable camber arms will come with a bushing integrated into the inside mounted end. The wishbone bushing can simple by pressed out and a new one pressed in. They seem to hold up pretty well, I see no reason to deviate from stock, or if an aftermarket item is even available.
Several vendors sell a 'bushing kit'. I know Turner has a few. ECS Tuning seems to as well. They're around, Google is your friend!
In my opinion camber plates (and decent rear camber arms) are absolutely a necessary item on the E36 and should have come on the car from the factory. The caster part isn't really critical, so you can definitely save some cash just getting camber-only plates. Camber plates will allow you to properly align the front end of your car, which can result in many things... better tire wear or better performance among them.Is it worth it to get an aftermarket camber plates for street use only? Are there any downsides to them?
Thanks for this information. I will add it to the primary thread. I will also give Bilstein a call and see what sort of parameters they accept when specifying a custom valve job. Don't bump the old thread, I will eventually cover valving in detail in this one.I was looking around for info on revalving and when I finally entered "bilstein revalving" into google the first hit I get is this:
http://www.bilstein.com/services.php
$75 each strut, $65 each shock (for non adjustables). Dyno sheets included
Complete pricing list at that link.
It appears that lots of people are interested in revalving. Should we bump that old thread you linked to, keep it in this thread or start a new one?
There is the RTAB then there are the trailing arm bushing/ball joint locations. Reference the rear suspension diagram for this, 9 is the RTAB, 5 and 8 are the upper and lower ball joints/bushings respectively.
[33-32-1-136-311] is clearly listed as a trailing arm bushing, LCAB standards for Lower or Front Control Arm Bushing, ie forward control arm to chassis, what you want, as you said, is [31-12-9-059-288]. You do need [33-32-6-770-786] if you intend to replace your RTAB with an OE one. This would be 9 in the rear suspension diagram.On another note, I wanted to change my front LCABs and so I ordered 33-32-1-136-311, but that's actually something completely different! eEuroparts.com lists it as "trailing arm bushing (lower)" for the rear! Instead I need 31-12-9-059-288 for my front LCABs.
So now I need to figure out what the hell I need to do my RTABs. Do I need 33-32-6-770-786? eEuroparts.com list that as "Trailing Arm Bushing (upper)" for the rear.
Neither of the part numbers listed on that website resolve in RealOEM, both resolve with Pelican Part's engine though. [33-32-2-228-153] is the apparently stronger RTAB I list in my FAQ. Pelican's database explicitly says to use [33-32-6-770-786] in place of [33-32-1-097-009-defunct]. You may just be dealing with old part numbers linking to superseded items.The other thing I ordered -- 33-32-1-097-009 -- I have no idea what it's for! Rogue Engineering show it as the 1995 E36 RTAB.
Cheers
Last edited by Evil Spoonman; 09-19-2009 at 08:52 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson
Suspension Overhaul FAQ
I'm not yet at the point where I feel the need to change control arms, though that may come after I do some of the other upgrades. For the first step I'm focusing on the struts and swaybar.
My real reason for reworking the front end is to get the M3 type of performance out of the stock 325i swaybar, due to the added mechanical advantage that is offered by the strut mounting position.
I had thought (based on your first post) that the front swaybars were the same on both cars. RealOEM reports a subtle difference that is interesting -- the 94 325i uses a 24mm swaybar while the 98 M3 uses a 23 mm swaybar. I'm thinking that the 325i swaybar would actually be stiffer once mounted in the M3 fashion.
The rear shock choice doesn't seem to be too difficult of a problem to solve -- as you said, the 325i and M3 rear springs are interchangeable, and Bilstein's non-M E36 HD or Sport shocks can be substituted for the M3 shocks.
Based on what I've read here, the Bilstein 325i Sport or HD shocks would probably be a better choice than the Bilstein M3 Sport shocks, even with the M3 rear springs. The hard part seems to be finding a matching setup for the front:
Bilstein only markets a "Sport" strut for the M3. There are no "HD" struts for the M3 like there are for the 325i. So for someone who is looking for an M3 strut body to mount their front swaybar in the M3 fashion, it looks like there is only one choice. Based on your comments about valving, it sounds like the Bilstein M3 (Sport) strut would be a poor choice for spirited DD/street use. And something like a Koni is out of the question for me, since I don't have an M3 strut body to accept a Koni insert.
Is the valving "problem" with the Bilstein Sport setup for the M3 limited only to the rear shocks, or does it effect the front struts as well? I can move to the 325i-type HD or Sport rear shocks without any problem, but I'm having trouble deciding what to do up front. There doesn't seem to be a good solution for someone who wants to adapt to an M3 type front strut.
Thanks for your help.
Another question -- Does anyone have a table of BMW spring rates for the E36? I'd really like to compare the front/rear spring rates between the non-M and the M3, but I haven't been able to track down the numbers. Thanks!
(oOO \ (||||)(||||) / OOo)
Yes, there are many 'different' swaybars, they vary in thickness. The 24mm swaybar will be stiffer than the 23mm swaybar in the same geometry.
You could grab worn out OE M3 struts and then get Konis. I imagine there are M3 owners around that would give you their worn M3 struts for the price of shipping. Just a thought.Bilstein only markets a "Sport" strut for the M3. There are no "HD" struts for the M3 like there are for the 325i. So for someone who is looking for an M3 strut body to mount their front swaybar in the M3 fashion, it looks like there is only one choice. Based on your comments about valving, it sounds like the Bilstein M3 (Sport) strut would be a poor choice for spirited DD/street use. And something like a Koni is out of the question for me, since I don't have an M3 strut body to accept a Koni insert.
I believe they are valved poorly all the way around, unfortunately. You might have to just revalve the M3 struts. They really aren't horrible terrible stock, they're just not ideal. You could see if you could get brackets welded on to a non-M strut. Here's what they look like:Is the valving "problem" with the Bilstein Sport setup for the M3 limited only to the rear shocks, or does it effect the front struts as well? I can move to the 325i-type HD or Sport rear shocks without any problem, but I'm having trouble deciding what to do up front. There doesn't seem to be a good solution for someone who wants to adapt to an M3 type front strut.
I think some of these springrates are floating around the forums... I don't remember where off the top of my head though.Another question -- Does anyone have a table of BMW spring rates for the E36? I'd really like to compare the front/rear spring rates between the non-M and the M3, but I haven't been able to track down the numbers.
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson
Suspension Overhaul FAQ
I have used non-M bars on my M and I had a problem you may run into. when my car was lowered on GC coils I could use the 3er sport bar with the OEM M3 links to the struts no problem and it worked great. the 328 sport front bar is thicker than the M3 bar but it is shaped slightly different due to the CA mounting vs. the strut mounting. so when I put stock height suspension back on the sway bar link (plus the ride height) put the 328 bar into such a position that the bar hit the oil pan (it hit something I can't really remember what). I couldn't even get the bar to bolt to the link because the link was not long enough. you could still use the 3er bar with M3 struts as long as you used a longer (adjustable) end link.
just my experience. oh and BTW I sell reconditioned M3 struts ready to go for koni inserts if you're interested. link in sig.
-E
Eric Paul Eviston - 1 Piece Silicone Hose M50 Manifold Conversion Kit
******M50 Manifold Install Trouble Shooting Guide Here: www.m50manifold.com
'98 M3/4 - ECIS CAI, S50 Manifold, Conforti Software, 16" Spal Puller, UUC Pulleys, Fan Delete, UUC Stage 2 Fly w/M5 Clutch, UUC Blacks w/TMEs, X-Brace, GC RTAB shims, GC RSMs,
M Roadster lever, 245x40x17 all 4 corners, Drilled Zimmermans, Motul RBF600 and Redline Synth fluids. My Dyno HERE
My Website: www.m50manifold.com
My Email: info@m50manifold.com
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson
Suspension Overhaul FAQ
maybe you'd be interested in something like this?
http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/html_techtip/index.html
go to sway bar links on left- its a DIY kinda thing
Last edited by 95325i5sp; 09-22-2009 at 09:17 PM.
(oOO \ (||||)(||||) / OOo)
Can anyone contribute original knowledge regarding aftermarket quality for control arms and tie rods? There is at least a 50% price differential between the Meyle HD and the OEM Lemforders.
So Mr Spoonman, I now have Billie Sport shocks with HnR race springs on my car. As you know, this setup is horrendous for ride quality. Would ditching the Billies for Koni adjustable shocks signifcantly improve the ride quality?
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: Revalving the Bilsteins is also a viable option for great results, and probably cheaper than buying all new shocks. See the URL for general prices, and call Bilstein for some better detail on what information they need to revalve to your liking: http://www.bilsteinus.com/services.php
Last edited by Evil Spoonman; 11-15-2009 at 11:15 PM.
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson
Suspension Overhaul FAQ
This may be a completely retarded question. I know I said Koni Adjustables, but it seems as though Koni Yellows are a much cheaper alternative. Will these also soften up my ride but not kill my handling? I also have UUC sways and Xbrace along with sparco strut bar.
What kills Bilstein Sports in the M3 application is poor valving. Any properly valved aftermarket shock (Koni, Sachs-Boge, AST, or even Bilstein other than the Sport) will almost certainly make for a very nice ride.
These should all help you along. Chassis rigidity is always a good thing. Be sure to use your swaybars for fine tuning and not as a substitution for lack of camber or correct springrates!I also have UUC sways and Xbrace along with sparco strut bar.
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson
Suspension Overhaul FAQ
Awesome. Koni's seem pretty expensive but I found these for a great deal. What do you think:
Front
http://www.raceinspired.com/p-16586-...iliateid=10065
Rear
http://www.raceinspired.com/p-16585-...iliateid=10065
I would say they seem about right as far as price point goes. Note that those fronts ARE inserts, not replacements - so that will require a touch of extra work.
I think they will provide a perfectly enjoyable ride. Part of the problem may in fact be that the H&R Race spring is not high enough in springrate for how substantially it lowers. You will bumpstop the vehicle from time to time if you DD it which is less than desirable.Special McPherson strut insert bolted into original equipment housing after cutting top and removing old internal parts.
Cheers
Last edited by Evil Spoonman; 11-16-2009 at 02:03 PM.
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson
Suspension Overhaul FAQ
Yes it's my DD. Bumpstops can be an issue but my number one problem is the harshness of the ride. So since they're inserts I would have to purchase OEM shocks to put the KONIs in? That sounds difficult. Maybe there's a third alternative.
I think the inserts can go in ANY shock tube. You could probably use the ones you currently have, but call Koni to double check.
Doug
Edit: This was verfied and this is not the case. Koni inserts can ONLY be used with OEM tubes.
Last edited by douglee25; 11-16-2009 at 03:28 PM.
'97 M3/4
there is another alternative... I sell the OE strut housings already modified and refurbished (powdercoated) and ready to go for konis.
look here: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1226598
-E
Eric Paul Eviston - 1 Piece Silicone Hose M50 Manifold Conversion Kit
******M50 Manifold Install Trouble Shooting Guide Here: www.m50manifold.com
'98 M3/4 - ECIS CAI, S50 Manifold, Conforti Software, 16" Spal Puller, UUC Pulleys, Fan Delete, UUC Stage 2 Fly w/M5 Clutch, UUC Blacks w/TMEs, X-Brace, GC RTAB shims, GC RSMs,
M Roadster lever, 245x40x17 all 4 corners, Drilled Zimmermans, Motul RBF600 and Redline Synth fluids. My Dyno HERE
My Website: www.m50manifold.com
My Email: info@m50manifold.com
I don't have OE shocks to send back to you for a core charge though, otherwise it sounds great.
Last edited by Haris; 11-16-2009 at 02:54 PM.
Really your options come down to:
- Revalve your Bilsteins
- Source some M3 struts and use them to insert Konis into (either from E36M3E as pure housings or from elsewhere as full struts you then cut down).
- I have not explored this option, but it may be possible to cut down your Bilsteins and use those bodies for the Koni inserts (which would be the height of irony). I'm not sure how dangerous this would be, Bilsteins are high pressure gas shocks and may have propensity to explode or something.
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson
Suspension Overhaul FAQ
Just got off the phone with Koni, and they said their inserts are solely for the OE housings I wish there was a way to revalve the Billies without having to go through the trouble of trying to source shocks to ride on temporarily while I send them off. Also, I wonder if I do revalve the Billies, will they eventually just go back to being terrible?
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