My 5.0l m62 build

[patrick houston]

Hey nice build up. I am curious do you have any before/after porting flow numbers? I have been wondering if there are good gains to be had while staying with a stock valve size.
Also, what will you be using for intake gaskets?

One last thing, why steel sleeves? Just curious I ask because I remember seeing something about Dinan's machining process works without sleeving.

Awesome build, I look forward to watching it come together!

[BigM62]

Hey nice build up. I am curious do you have any before/after porting flow numbers? I have been wondering if there are good gains to be had while staying with a stock valve size.
Also, what will you be using for intake gaskets?

One last thing, why steel sleeves? Just curious I ask because I remember seeing something about Dinan's machining process works without sleeving.

Awesome build, I look forward to watching it come together!

Thanks. I went with Rebello Racing's recommendation for port-n-polish for FI. I am using a custom made aftercooler/intake manifold. And I had my block steel sleved for forced induction, as the aluminium block can only hold so much boost. Dinan's machining process is for their $40,000 E60 M5/M6 V10 bigger displacement engine.

[tptrsn]

. . . the aluminium block can only hold so much boost.

What is the best estimate of that limitation that you've seen? And is it different for the M62b44 block than for the S62 block (with the S62 block having the lower threshold I'd imagine)?

[5mall5nail5]

They can only hold so much power, which is in the form of heat, not boost which you won't need to worry about with a CF blower since it'll only make anything measureable rrrrrrright when you shift. Damn, missed it.

[tptrsn]

Not sure what you're talking about there Jon. . .

BigM62, what have you heard/observed?

[5mall5nail5]

Not sure what you're talking about there Jon. . .

BigM62, what have you heard/observed?

My point was just that boost means nothing. The block can obviously hold 200 psi because thats what you see with a compression test. Cylinder pressures are much higher when the motor is running. The only way you can determine what a block can take is based on power output - power = heat, heat = expansion, expansion = friction, friction = heat, and so on - pow. So, boost, though nice to say, has nothing to do with a blocks strength. 20 psi from one compressor could be 3 psi from another - not a measurable value.

[tptrsn]

Alright, but when taken within the context of the hardware used to create the boost, you can usually have some useful information. Right now I have no useful information, and I would like to find out what is available.

Do YOU have any USEFUL information to share on this topic?

[e30polak]

I love Osh's s62 aftercoolers, they are a work of art!

Your car is going to rip some serious ass!

[highboostingm3]

Alright, but when taken within the context of the hardware used to create the boost, you can usually have some useful information. Right now I have no useful information, and I would like to find out what is available.

Do YOU have any USEFUL information to share on this topic?

As far as BMW there really isn't much you can look at to compare when it comes to high boost supercharging with the BMW aluminum block and sleeves. The two Shadowman e39 m5s come to mind which are of course s62 engines. They have held up to the abuse from what I have read but they were also built by another and tuned by another so it is rather relative. The easiest way is to get information from similiar aluminum V8s with sleeves, big S/C and lots of boost.

[tptrsn]

Any idea what the most abuse is that one has taken without sleeves? Seems like Flexall has trapped in the mid-high one teens without sleeves. I assume he probably isn't the most extreme example. . . ?

This thread certainly seems like a good place to mine this type of information, but it is pretty scarce I guess.

[5mall5nail5]

Well one thing you have to keep in mind is that a sleeve is just that - its a steel liner in an aluminum bore. Aluminum expands at a different rate than does steel and so there is ALWAYS the chance for the sleeve to slip and fail. You can look at thousands of american V8s who have installed sleeves and see. Though, their power numbers differ greatly. Because no one has really done this, this'll be the example of what it can take. So, jimmy will have to push it hard and make a shit ton of power and see where it fails at, or push it hard and not push the envelope too close. Its really his call, for now, all we can go by are some S62s that made ok power but nothing close of "failing" the block.

[MacR]

Well one thing you have to keep in mind is that a sleeve is just that - its a steel liner in an aluminum bore. Aluminum expands at a different rate than does steel and so there is ALWAYS the chance for the sleeve to slip and fail. You can look at thousands of american V8s who have installed sleeves and see. Though, their power numbers differ greatly. Because no one has really done this, this'll be the example of what it can take. So, jimmy will have to push it hard and make a shit ton of power and see where it fails at, or push it hard and not push the envelope too close. Its really his call, for now, all we can go by are some S62s that made ok power but nothing close of "failing" the block.

Hopefully my build (similar) will not see that kind of power. No CF for me, no FI in the near future. Just cruising and above average grunt when I need it.

[DIRT11]

My point was just that boost means nothing. The block can obviously hold 200 psi because thats what you see with a compression test. Cylinder pressures are much higher when the motor is running. The only way you can determine what a block can take is based on power output - power = heat, heat = expansion, expansion = friction, friction = heat, and so on - pow. So, boost, though nice to say, has nothing to do with a blocks strength. 20 psi from one compressor could be 3 psi from another - not a measurable value.

I have never seen 200 psi or heard of 200 PSI on a compression test on a S62 or M62 engine before . Every block is built different and there is not a hell of a lot of material between the cylinders on the Alusil blocks.As well the engine would really have to expand a bunch for the flanged sleeves to just fall into the block I would think. I know the American made big blocks have been known to loose sleeves but , rarely have I ever heard of a S62 or M62 dropping a sleeve. Like one time in all the years I have been screwing around with these motors. Which is a much longer amount of time than I ever dreamed I would ......The two D/A cars were good for what 700-800 to the wheels with 18-20 pounds boost ? I can not remember. A bunch for the S62 but , not a bunch for a boosted car. I only make 530RWHP @ 6350 RPM again not much for a boosted car @ 11.5 pounds of boost. Aftercooler would be a bunch of help. VAC did all the work on the D/A motors but , D/A put the motors together.Dual injector per cylinder motors they are..... It would be easier to boost anything in the world than the S62 or M62 motors.ME7.2 ECU not an easy computer to crack as well for the tuning.MOTEC would have been the easiest way to go , if you were in a state with no inspection. Same as my Porsche , MoteC.It will be interesting though to see what Jimmy and actually there is someone in Sweden using the V7 on the M62 platform as well , put down for power as the V7 is a monster for the street.

[5mall5nail5]

I would expect an S62 with 11:1 to hit 200 psi during a compression test but its irrelevant - my point is "boost" is a small number compared to cylinder pressure - boost alone doesn't break anything, heat does. A flanged sleeve should not move in the cylinder, but thats what they say about land rover engines too haha *knock on wood*

[BigM62]

Any idea what the most abuse is that one has taken without sleeves? Seems like Flexall has trapped in the mid-high one teens without sleeves. I assume he probably isn't the most extreme example. . . ?

This thread certainly seems like a good place to mine this type of information, but it is pretty scarce I guess.

It is somwhat of a given that boost=more heat. More boost, more heat. So in gereral terms when talking about S62/M62 engines: for some reliabilty, (if that can be said for aftermarket FI kits ), 6-9 psi is generally the recommended limit on the stock aluminium bottom end, but I am sure others have gone higher. Sleeving, in what I have researched and the many M62's that Rebello Racing have modded, is best for higher PSI levels, eg. 14+ PSI. Hope that helps tptrsn.

They can only hold so much power, which is in the form of heat, not boost which you won't need to worry about with a CF blower since it'll only make anything measureable rrrrrrright when you shift. Damn, missed it.

Not quite right there. One sees boost relative to your right foot pressing down, not when you shift.

[highboostingm3]

It is somwhat of a given that boost=more heat. More boost, more heat. So in gereral terms when talking about S62/M62 engines: for some reliabilty, (if that can be said for aftermarket FI kits ), 6-9 psi is generally the recommended limit on the stock aluminium bottom end, but I am sure others have gone higher. Sleeving, in what I have researched and the many M62's that Rebello Racing have modded, is best for higher PSI levels, eg. 14+ PSI. Hope that helps tptrsn.

Yes, but the 6-9psi maximum is also due to (in order of importance):
1) Stock compression ratio.
2) Stock pistons.
3) Stock rods.

So the question remains. If someone were to use aftermarket forged pistons at a lower compression ratio (9.0:1 let's say) plus aftermarket forged rods, what would the maximum psi be then?

The problem is that psi is still relative to many things like:
1) Supercharger size.
2) Tuning.
3) Methanol injection.
4) Octane of fuel.
5) Forms of o-inging or fire ringing or helicoflex ring, etc.
6) Types of head gaskets and sealing techniques of such gaskets (other than what is in #5).
7) Other hardware advantages or disadvantages.

So until someone tests the m62 or s62 with changing the above and not sleeving, we can not be sure.

Not quite right there. One sees boost relative to your right foot pressing down, not when you shift.

That is a phrase usually associated with a turbo, not with a centrifugal supercharger since they only make full boost near or at redline (which is what Jon was referring to). So you can be WOT and you aren't running the maximum boost that the car is said to have. So if it is 6psi or 14psi you are running a lower amount than that depending where you are in the RPM range.

[tptrsn]

Hope that helps tptrsn.

It does, thank you!

And thanks Cameron for throwing in some other considerations. Those items do make it sound like the issues are often not so much with the cylinder walls themselves. . .

[5mall5nail5]

That is a phrase usually associated with a turbo, not with a centrifugal supercharger since they only make full boost near or at redline (which is what Jon was referring to). So you can be WOT and you aren't running the maximum boost that the car is said to have. So if it is 6psi or 14psi you are running a lower amount than that depending where you are in the RPM range.

Don't bother explaining i've tried time and again.

[BigM62]

Yes, but the 6-9psi maximum is also due to (in order of importance):
1) Stock compression ratio.
2) Stock pistons.
3) Stock rods.

So the question remains. If someone were to use aftermarket forged pistons at a lower compression ratio (9.0:1 let's say) plus aftermarket forged rods, what would the maximum psi be then?

The problem is that psi is still relative to many things like:
1) Supercharger size.
2) Tuning.
3) Methanol injection.
4) Octane of fuel.
5) Forms of o-inging or fire ringing or helicoflex ring, etc.
6) Types of head gaskets and sealing techniques of such gaskets (other than what is in #5).
7) Other hardware advantages or disadvantages.

So until someone tests the m62 or s62 with changing the above and not sleeving, we can not be sure.


That is a phrase usually associated with a turbo, not with a centrifugal supercharger since they only make full boost near or at redline (which is what Jon was referring to). So you can be WOT and you aren't running the maximum boost that the car is said to have. So if it is 6psi or 14psi you are running a lower amount than that depending where you are in the RPM range.

According to almost every competent engine builder I have talked to, aluminium blocks do not take well to higher boost levels of 1 bar. And if one is going to install all forged internals, it would be kind of idiotic to not sleeve the block for a relative small additional cost in money. I know what Jon was refering to. I don't need to be in full boost to make good power, maybe for a I6 I quess. If I am going to run 14-18 PSI, I am sure I will also have fun with as little as 4 psi was my point. I wil not have to always bring it to redline. That is why I have a 4.9L

[DIRT11]

I would expect an S62 with 11:1 to hit 200 psi during a compression test but its irrelevant - my point is "boost" is a small number compared to cylinder pressure - boost alone doesn't break anything, heat does. A flanged sleeve should not move in the cylinder, but thats what they say about land rover engines too haha *knock on wood*

HMMM who builds the Land Rover anyway.........

[BigM62]

Small update: I originally bought a Clutchmasters FX200, then I found out after install and 500 miles, I had a bad piston ring due to the original shitty piggyback tune. I was given credit by Clutchmasters towards a FX400. The clutch was still NIB when I decided to go to FX600. So, what I finally decided was a FX600 Street Twin Disc, new pressure plate and light weight aluminum flywheel. Car is ready to head south for the winter for aftercooler/mani and decide on what psi amount. I need to decide on Alpha-N or 2 chip (91/100+ oct) tune. I know there are different clutch kits out there, but I really like the Clutchmaster's customer service.

[3literheater]

Looks like a burly unit.

[BigM62]

Looks like a burly unit.

I hope it holds.

[D540i]

any updates on the engine?
I'm also curious about the transmission... are you doing any modifications to it to cope with the extra power? (besides the clutch/flywheel obviously)
sorry if you answered the transmission question elsewhere.

[BigM62]

any updates on the engine?
I'm also curious about the transmission... are you doing any modifications to it to cope with the extra power? (besides the clutch/flywheel obviously)
sorry if you answered the transmission question elsewhere.

The engine is done and in car. I will not start the car becuase I basically have a new/different engine (4.4L to 4.9L w/M5 crankshaft) and will have it shipped down to LA from SF. No mods to trans nor to diff. I will replace as things break. But then again, I will not be drag racing this car stop light to stop light. It was built as a powerfull highway/backroads cruiser, and occasional track day/driving school. I realize it is not a light weight sports car, but I will have alot of fun for what it is.