Hey guys, I really need some help with this issue. Its kicking our butts and we have no idea what it could be.
Background
Car: 1988 E30 M3
Engine: S50B32
Oil Pan: e34 (e30 subframe clearance)
Oil Pump: e34
Oil: Motul 300v 15w50
First Occurence - Sebring 01/03/09
We got the motor in the car and wrapped it all up at the end of 2008. We had our first session at Sebring in January. We went out for our initial laps and came back in after about 15 minutes on track to check everything out. When I dove into the pits and brought the car to idle, oil pressure immediately dropped down to 0.
When looking at the AIM logs, we had plenty of pressure when out on track, mostly in the 50's from what I remember. The issue didn't come up until the RPM dropped down to idle. Car sounded like shit obviously at idle in the pits, but bringing up the revs did give us positive oil pressure as it climbed with RPM. Car was shut down, we packed it up and went home.
Based on a lot of reading on this and other forums and after speaking to a number of knowledgable people, we replaced the pressure relief valve on the side of the block, got a new oil pump from BMW, replaced all the bearings and changed to a 0w40 oil (Mobil1). We basically tried a combination of everything we could find related to similar issues others have had. Car ran great after that, even after some "spirited" driving around local highways out in the middle of nowhere, so we decided to head back out to the track.
Second Occurence - Homestead 03/07/09 (today)
We joined ChinMotorsports at Homestead this morning and went out for a morning warmup. Everything looked good so we headed out for our first hot session. Out on track, the car felt great and the oil pressure was normal (I almost spent more time looking at the AIM pressure readout than the road...). I dove into the pits to check it all out to make sure all was ok, and as soon as I let the revs drop to idle, again 0 oil pressure! I shut it down, we packed it up, and came home.
Same issue all over again with another new pump, different oil and a replaced pressure valve. So obviously the pump was a result of another issue and not the cause of our problems. Something else is happening and we have no ideas where to go from here.
Any help is greatly appreciated. This is getting very frustrating
Are you sure the data is right? The sensor is ok? Sensor is mounted in a good location?
It's not speed that kills, it's the speed difference that does. Obviously you aren't going fast enough.
Turning Benjamins into noise since 1997
I read a list of the 100 things you MUST do before you die. Funny, "Yelling 'HELP'" didn't make the list!
Yeah, definitely. Sounds horrible at idle and when we pulled it all apart after Sebring, the oil pump was shot (it was brand new, basically crapping out after 15 minutes). It almost looked like it wasn't getting oil from the damage, like a metal to metal grinding type of damage. But from what we were told, starvation is not really an issue with this motor/pan setup. Not sure about that...
And there is debris in the oil, so definite damage...
Last edited by hyboost; 03-07-2009 at 07:57 PM.
I have a 325 pump and the same pans but no issues....I have no idea.
It's not speed that kills, it's the speed difference that does. Obviously you aren't going fast enough.
Turning Benjamins into noise since 1997
I read a list of the 100 things you MUST do before you die. Funny, "Yelling 'HELP'" didn't make the list!
fit a crank scraper, I think the oil is moving away from the pickup on high g corners, 3 litre M3's were notorious for doing it with high G track corners
cheers, Alan
1/4 mile-12.92 @ 108.64mph-NA 3.0L m3 daily driver
Hmm, when you did the warmup after you replaced your pump, were you driving the car as hard as during competition? I mean as in High G corners or is it primarily hard acceleration and decent mid-corner speed?
Alan is probably right. The 3.2 does have the extra pick-up, but it seems like it's not enough.
Maybe go Drysump?
"When I raced a car last it was at a time when sex was safe and racing was dangerous. Now, it's the other way round." -Hans Stuck
OT: what e34 oil pan did you use? i didn't know other oil pans fit the euro M3 engines
It's not speed that kills, it's the speed difference that does. Obviously you aren't going fast enough.
Turning Benjamins into noise since 1997
I read a list of the 100 things you MUST do before you die. Funny, "Yelling 'HELP'" didn't make the list!
You should be able to run any M50 based pump all you need is the E34 pickup tube
PenguinScotty, warmup was not being run as hard as the first session of the day. There is only so much I could do behind the other cars with a standing yellow. I also went out 2 weeks ago to a local highway out in the middle of nowhere, for some "spirited" driving in an attempt to put some miles on it and simulate track conditions (again, there is only so much you can do without getting arrested). Car ran great with the appropriate oil pressure at all times.
E34 pan and pump is what others with the same setup are running. There are a lot more extreme setups than mine with absolutely no starvation issues. I asked around for baffle options or other pumps possibly, but I am being told that this is a proven setup with tracked s30 swaps.
The only thing I can think of is that though, in extreme cornering g conditions. But why would I be the only one and if so, what are my options on this car?
I completely read over the E34 pan and pump part, my bad.
That would make the oil starvation even more likely, even if the other E30 guys don't have that problem. Drysump will probably be the best solution no matter what, but i don't think that there is a kit for that yet. If i remember right, Alex Lipowich made one for his race car. Maybe you could talk to him.
Sorry, don't know enough about this to help more . Good luck!
"When I raced a car last it was at a time when sex was safe and racing was dangerous. Now, it's the other way round." -Hans Stuck
My post probably won`t be very helpful, but anyway...
S50B30 has a "pan" or "tray" (don`t know how to call it) between block and oilpan. B32 with dual pickup pump shouldn`t have one, at least I think so, because I saw some istructions to remove it if you upgrade to dual pickup pump.
"tray" is no.1 on picture
http://bmwfans.info/original/E36/Cou...1/ill-11_1299/
Last edited by gobuffs; 03-10-2009 at 02:50 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
It's not speed that kills, it's the speed difference that does. Obviously you aren't going fast enough.
Turning Benjamins into noise since 1997
I read a list of the 100 things you MUST do before you die. Funny, "Yelling 'HELP'" didn't make the list!
Rob,
I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. I am at a loss as to what could be going on. Like we know, you aren't doing anything that hasn't already been done. You're welcome to hit me up off line to discuss, but right now, I can't think of anything specific to target.
Jeff
update?
Honestly...no
We are guessing at what it could be, but the problem is that it will all be trial and error. And the problem is that we don't learn that its still an issue till we get out on track, so it becomes a long drive with a pretty decent expense to learn 15 minutes into the morning that we still have the problem (we've done this twice already).
I spent a lot of time thinking about what the variable could be from our setup to the same exact swap in other raced e30's (like yours). The only thing I can think of is a minor trim we did to the oil pan when we first got it. I incorrectly assumed that we could use the dual pickup pump from the s50b32 with the 525i pan, but there were minor clearance problems. We ended up trimming/cutting out portions of the factory baffle in the bottom of the pan to clear the pump, which ended up being a wasted effort since we obviously had to swap to the 525i pump as well. And since this "seems" like a starvation issue, I think that the alterations to the pan and factory baffle may be the culprit. The trims/cuts were minor though.
But that's reaching...just guessing without a real solid idea.
The other theory is based on the fact that there are 2 versions of the pan...an older pre '94 I believe and a newer model with different part numbers (from what we see in realoem). We have the newer one, but not sure if others are running the older model.
Again, nothing solid...
I can certainly relate to finding a problem 15 minutes into the first practice session. I miss the days of being able to test on the street (legally).
I can't imagine the minor alterations to the pan being an issue, especially at low speeds where the oil isn't being thrown up the sides of the pan. I don't remember what version of the pan I am using. I'll look around to find the receipt. I'd be happy to share that info with you, but even still, that wouldn't explain why it was working fine than all of a sudden you lost pressure.
You stated that your data shows good pressure on the track, so I wouldn;t suspect the pan or starvation. On the other hand, its really hard to believe that you got two BMW oil pumps bad out of the box.
How's the filter look? Any chance the passages got plugged with gunk?
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...1167899&page=2
I know this is a discussion of a different pump, but perhaps the same thing is happening to yours as is happening to it?
Jeff, yep...looks very much like our problem. We checked out the first pump that was in the car from when the motor first when in and the valve was definitely stuck open. We are going to pull the second pump that is in the car right know, but we're pretty certain that this one is stuck open as well.
So 2 brand new pumps with just minutes of track time on them, both with a sticking valve. We'll contact Metric Mechanic to see what they can do about it based on the post Kim had in your link.
If modifying a new OEM one isn't an option, are there any other pump options for the e30 swap? Or is dry sump our best bet now?
IIRC I have a 325 pump (further IIRC oil pumps on nearly all E36s with 6 cylinders are the same except the S50B32). I have no issues with oil pressure on track and I don't run a baffle. *shrug*
It's not speed that kills, it's the speed difference that does. Obviously you aren't going fast enough.
Turning Benjamins into noise since 1997
I read a list of the 100 things you MUST do before you die. Funny, "Yelling 'HELP'" didn't make the list!
Ok, stupid question, but for those of you with the s50b32 in an e30, I know that you are using the 525i oil pan for subframe clearance, but are you using the 525i pump/pickup or the 325i pump/pickup?
We are running the 525i pump/pickup but from the reply of gobuffs above, it appears that we may be wrong? While the pumps appear to be the same with both models, the pickup is different as seen here...
525i pump and pickup
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...77&hg=11&fg=30
325i pump and pickup
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...76&hg=11&fg=30
We are chasing a theory from an engine builder that we may have an oil pickup issue and that there is either obstruction or the physical location of the pump pickup is not correct for that particular engine/pan.
Any help or confirmation is greatly appreciated, especially from gobuffs or Jeff since you guys are both racing with this exact setup.
I'll have to look at my paperwork when I get home. It has been too long since I bought the parts to remember...getting old sucks. Pretty sure I am running a 325 pickup, but that is just a vague recollection of what I actually did.
Edit: actually looking at the realoem pic, the 525 pick up looks more like what I did.
Last edited by gobuffs; 04-21-2009 at 10:49 AM.
It's not speed that kills, it's the speed difference that does. Obviously you aren't going fast enough.
Turning Benjamins into noise since 1997
I read a list of the 100 things you MUST do before you die. Funny, "Yelling 'HELP'" didn't make the list!
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