Tundra Mud
With 16 year old cars low mileage units are pretty hard to come by. Besides Rebuilding transmissions is fun (I've done 4 or 5 depending on how you look at it). Well after searching the web for how to rebuild the E36 transmission I found very little. Most people just say get another or that they are not rebuildable. However a few places where people do rebuild them but no instructions and most just big $$ to do it. I could not even find pictures of the inside.
I had purchased a used trans cheap because they said it needed "rebuilt" and boy does it ever (more on that later). I had nothing to loose I figure so last night I decided to take it apart. With nothing but the diagrams of Real OEM and previous experience from a few other cars I dove in. Anyway here are some pics of where I am at right now. More to come.
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Right now I'm stalled as I need a 30mm deep socket to take the output shaft nut off. The 30mm standard socket is not deep enough. To be honest so far dissasembly has not been that much different than other trans I have done. I'm not sure why everyone is so afraid of them. Maybe I'll find out later?
Last edited by Thaniel; 01-03-2009 at 11:48 AM. Reason: Can't get the pics to self show???
Tundra Mud
Oh, I forgot to add. If someone has some more detailed info on how to rebuild these (specs for endplay/preload etc) that'd be great. Otherwise I'll wing it with info from another make of car.
Thaniel
vrrrm psshh
def would like to know how this turns out. My tranny is going downhill but I have an m3 tranny to replace it. Maybe i'll rebuild it once its out.
Tundra Mud
Ok the 30mm thin wall deep socket is on order so I can remove the output flange and extract the gearset and shift forks. I should mention that the transmission I am working on is a Getrag from 325i.
I'll have to play with the exact best method for diassembling and reassembling the front housing from the back housing. It seems this is where a lot of people give up. However it's really not that hard. Infact my 9 year old boy actually did it. I'll write up what I know so far so I don't loose it.
Since I had no instructions I didn't know for sure what was required to seperate the front from the back housing. I removed any and all bolts or clips from the front housing (and a few from the rear housing) that looked like they had a chance of holding anything. I pryed and whacked on the case (with a rubber mallet) trying to seperate it. This had popped apart the other transmissions I had done (nissan and mazda) without much trouble. However this wasn't getting anywhere. Wasn't sure if it just needed more pressure or I wasn't going at it this the right way. There was one way to find out. Put more pressure on it and see if it would come apart or break. So I loaded it into my press and gave it a go. Turns out more pressure was the right answer. Actually it didn't even take that much more.
Turns out that in this transmission the input shaft bearing is retained to the front housing from the inside. So to separate the transmission enough pressure to slide the input shaft OUT of the input shaft bearing is required. Anyone that has pressed on and off bearings will know the amount of pressure I'm taking about.
Basically what needs to be done to open up the transmission is:
1. Remove the Throwout bearing guide and then the front seal from the transmission.
2. Underneath the input shaft seal there is a Snap Ring, Ring cover, another snap ring and then a "support" (thick washer) that has to be removed from the input shaft.
3. Remove the 9 bolts that hold the front housing to the back housing.
4. Remove the bolt that holds the reverse gear shaft inplace. in the front housing. see pic "ds step 3 and 4"
5. Press on the input shaft while holding the front housing. There are many methods that this could be done. Since I happen to own a press I put the assy in the press and supported it where the slave cylinder would mount and a flat on the other side of the case (see picture for an idea of what I am talking about). A puller and some bars bolted across the bell housing would work fine for someone without a press. Once the input shaft is pressed out of the front bearing the case should be seperated about 1"
6. Reach in and remove the deflection lever pin (i was able pull out with my fingers). See attached pictures "ds step 6" and ds step 6b".
7. remove front housing all the way. The defection lever and the magnet may fall in to the trans. that's ok.
How to remove the gearsets and shift forks from the rear housing coming soon.
Edit: step 4. It looks as though the reverse gear bolt that is in the front housing is the only bolt that needs to be removed from the side. I'll try to add a picture later.
Edit: 4/2/09 updated instructions.
Last edited by Thaniel; 05-02-2009 at 01:34 PM.
Tundra Mud
Ok. My socket arrived and I've done a bit more work.
To remove the gear sets from the rear housing
1. Remove the reverse gear and shaft from the rear assy.
2. Remove is the shifter detent balls and interlock pin (part#17 on the shift fork diagram on real OEM). See pic 129 attached.
2. Remove the output flange. There is a "securing plate" on the nut that has to be removed (all the way out) before loosening the nut.
3. Remove the 4 bolts on the rear of the rear housing that secure the countershaft rear bearing retainer.
4. Put the assy in a press (or rig up some kind of puller) and press out the assy. (the main shaft and countershaft and shift forks will come out together).
Pics:
129 - Shift fork detent balls and springs and interlock pin layed out how they come out.
131 - Location of where the detent balls and springs come out.
141 - set up for pressing out gear assy from rear housing
142 & 143 It's out.
Dissassembly of the main and counter shaft appear the same as about any other manual trans.
Last edited by Thaniel; 05-02-2009 at 01:35 PM.
Tundra Mud
Now that the trans is apart the problem is very obvious.
See attached pictures. Pic 155 is 2nd gear and 156 is the mating teeth on the countershaft
Member
mucho kudos to you my friend. I have taken apart many automatics and few manuals, and I must say its not that hard provided you have all the tools you need and a press, but manuals are typically more frustrating that autos IMO. Cool to see someone actually attempting this instead of "just buying a used one".
"Don't do one thing 100% better, do one hundred things 1% better" -Unknown
Member
million dollar question...How much is the dealer gonna charge ya for new gears??? are they even available individually or get it from another trans???
Member
I need to do this. But first i have to learn some more before tearing into it! I respect and admire you for doing this.
Member
Subscribed. I've always known generally how a transmission works, but seeing it torn down is very interesting. I tend to just swap whole units like everybody else (shame on me).
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson
Suspension Overhaul FAQ
Tundra Mud
That made me laugh as I rebuilt my first Auto this year and was thinking manuals are easier than auto's. So many failure points in an auto. I've got a lot of respect for someone who can diagnose an auto.Originally Posted by TheKyle
Judging by the pricing on Real OEM this particular trans it is way beyond economical repair. It would be far cheaper to buy another used trans just to get the two parts with broken teeth. But then if I had another used trans with good gears I'd just rebuild it instead of this one. Anyone want to donate another trans?
I'll probably re-assemble this one just to get the proceedure down. There may be some "tricks" to getting it back together.
Last edited by Thaniel; 01-11-2009 at 04:21 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
3D RC Heli Pilot
Wow! I own a 35th Anniversary Camaro; of course you know that's the LS1. My friend and I did an LS6 conversion on it and it's fast as hell. I can't even imagine that engine in an E36. Great job on the install!
Never even heard of putting an LS1 in an E36 until I saw your thread. I bet it's a lot of work and fabrication. I'm not completely understanding your tach signal problem. I know you got it sorted out. Wonder how far Dublin is from Baltimore, may be worthy of a road trip
TV's Uncle Jerry
Curious as to the purpose of those springs and balls? If one were to have an old transmission out of their car (like for a manual transmission swap). Would it be a good idea to replace those springs? Do you just pop that cover off and pull out the springs and balls?
Last edited by CirrusSR22; 01-11-2009 at 06:08 PM.
Member
Re. Parts pricing. Did you try a trans shop for parts pricing? Some of the bigger ones may have them, or be able to order the parts without dealer pricing. Worth a shot!
Tundra Mud
Dublin is in the SW corner of Virginia. Probably a bit of a drive for you. One of the sponsers on this board is in NY and they do LS1-E36 conversions. Even superchargedWow! I own a 35th Anniversary Camaro; of course you know that's the LS1. My friend and I did an LS6 conversion on it and it's fast as hell. I can't even imagine that engine in an E36. Great job on the install!
Never even heard of putting an LS1 in an E36 until I saw your thread. I bet it's a lot of work and fabrication. I'm not completely understanding your tach signal problem. I know you got it sorted out. Wonder how far Dublin is from Baltimore, may be worthy of a road trip
Just for everyone else's knowlege my LS1 BMW runs with the 6 speed manual from the firebird not a BMW trans. The one I'm plaing with is for my electric E36 conversion.
The springs and balls hold the shift fork in gear in place and keep from selecting 2 adjacent shift forks at once. I doubt there would be a need to ever replace them. However yes. I removed the cover and then pulled them out with magnets.
Gears usually don't wear out or break so shops don't generally have them. If it was a common failure or transmission maybe. in my area (small town usa) no one would have any parts for a BMW.
I Like your thinking though. The bearings, seals and syncro rings are ususally what are replaced in a rebuild. The bearings and seals I can usually buy through industrial supply houses at a much lower cost than the dealer (and are the same exact thing).
Last edited by Thaniel; 01-12-2009 at 12:45 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Man With The Plan
great thread! Subscribed!
...When you get a blackeye from trying to change the shift knob.
Member
Im taking my trans out tomorrow and i am going to try to open her up like this but my 2nd gear is not even there any more i mean it goes in to gear but i can let off the clutch and nothing happens except for a slight noise but it goes in to all the other gears and it drives in all other gears. where are some places to buy speicific bmw part for transmissions
Member
Great thread, I love seeing things like this. The more knowledge I can get about my car, the better I can take care of it
Man With The Plan
well what you can do is go to real oem and look at the gear Pn's and look em up pn ECS Tuning they stock most OEM parts but they will be expensive. I actually have 2 transmissions and will be opening hem up and making one good one.
...When you get a blackeye from trying to change the shift knob.
Tundra Mud
Wow...It has been awhile since I have updated this thread. Well you know with the banks and economy failing, Serbian pirates and Swine flu it's hard to get any work done on my projects. Well it's only partly true. With the economy in the crapper it has required some reductions at work which has taken much of my time and energy. I've been too tired to work on this much. Also being worried about my own financial future I've cut back on some of my hobby car spending which has diminished my need to have this reassembled. However with all of that I still have managed to reassemble the transmission so I can post about it and share the details.
Reassembly difficulty on a 1 to 10 scale. 1 being changing oil, 5 being replacing a rear wheel bearing, reassembly of the trans is a 10. This is no easy task but it can be done. Well maybe it's not as hard as I make it out but I guess that depends on your skill levels and tools.
I'll give some basic instructions. These came from assy and disassy several times. I think I have what will work. My wife was astonished after I'd finally get it together and then say "now I'll take it apart again and see if there is an easier way". I will not cover how to disasembly/reassembly of the gears from the shafts etc. If you need help with that then this DIY isn't going to be near enough for you.
To reassemble.
1. place the gearsets together (main and counter shafts) as they would be in the trans.
2. Put the shiftforks inplace where they would go on the guide sleeves
3. Install detent pin in the cross hole of the 1st/2nd shift fork end (I recommend coating it with thick grease to help it stay put when installing the shift forks.
4. Slide the assy into the rear housing. I found it easier to stand the assy in the front housing (I had the front input shaft bearing removed) and then slide the rear housing over it. The difficult part is getting the shift forks into their holes.
5. Press the assy in until the output flange can be attached and tightened to pull the assy in.
6. Install the rear counter shaft retainer (see pictures). It has to be dropped down in the case and then fished into place with some screwdrivers.
7. Ensure the detent pin stayed in place then install shifter detent balls and pins.
Now it is time to install the front housing. This is where it gets more tricky.
8. Install the reverse gear and shaft.
9. coat the end of the selector shaft and roll pins with grease to hold them and slide the "roll pins" (not real roll pins. They look like tiny washers) on to the end of the selector shaft.
10 Put the deflection lever in place. Note the plate is not symetrical. One end is smaller than the other. I would recommend putting a screwdriver through the hole in the deflection plate to hold it in place. Also put a screw driver under the LH edge.
11. Add grease to the magnet and put it in place. With the rear assy standing on end with the front of the gearsets facing up slide the front housing over the selector shaft etc. Slide it down until the defection lever pin can be reinstalled (will have to remove the screwdriver from the center hole obviously)
12. Pull the front input shaft while pressing on the inner race of the input shaft bearing. You will need to develop or find some tooling for this. Since my trans isn't going to be reused I didn't use the best method here. So I'm leaving out a lot of detail on this step. This could be quite a challenge to do right.
13. Re install the front clips and washers and front seal, bolts etc.
Shift the trans and check to see that it all works.
Last edited by Thaniel; 05-02-2009 at 08:34 PM.
Tundra Mud
Could be your trans has the same problem as mine. See post #6
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...07&postcount=6
If the gear teeth get stripped of then it'll act like it is in neutral when it is shifted to 2nd. Could also be something with the shift forks. Should be obvious. However odds are if you have something that serious the trans is "beyond economical repair". One gear alone will cost more than an entire used transmission.
On my trans since the gears were trash the trans is basically useless. I reassembled it just to share and show myself I could do it. (I actually cut the rest of the 2nd gear teeth so i could spin the trans and see if I got the rest of it assembled right).
Tundra Mud
Oh I have one more bit of information. When I disassembled the trans one of the springs in the 1st/2nd guide sleeve was broken. Fatigue failure is my guess. don't see how it could have been broken on disassembly. Anyway with the spring broken the pressure on the syncro ring with shifting would be reduced and unequal causing difficult shifting. I bought this trans loose so I have no idea how it shifted but if it was notchy in 1st and 2nd that'd make sense.
I've attached a picture of the springs and a clutch hub with the springs installed. The clutch hub in in the picture is actually the 5th/reverse. Just wanted to show how the springs are installed.
2nd is the 1st loser
That's just what I needed!!! I have like 3 gearboxes of 325s, 1 E46 M3 6speed and 1 E36 EVO M3 6speed gearboxes and have of them are with little defects. That's a perfect timing for meI'll try to play around and fix at least one of them
One question though... how do you know which synchro is it? I mean, I have problems with my 3rd gear synchro, how would I find that synchro in the gearbox?
Man With The Plan
if you look on real oem the diagram with tell you what gear is what # in the listThat's just what I needed!!! I have like 3 gearboxes of 325s, 1 E46 M3 6speed and 1 E36 EVO M3 6speed gearboxes and have of them are with little defects. That's a perfect timing for me
One question though... how do you know which synchro is it? I mean, I have problems with my 3rd gear synchro, how would I find that synchro in the gearbox?
...When you get a blackeye from trying to change the shift knob.
2nd is the 1st loser
Aha... Here I got you, mate
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