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Thread: DASC Nick G. Stage II early report....

  1. #1
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    DASC Nick G. Stage II early report....

    This is just a *very* early report on Nick's Stage II DASC software. For those that don't know Nick G. reverse assembled the various versions of software in the 1.9l DMEs back to source code. According to posts from Jim Conforti his is the only other tuner he has ever know that goes this far in understanding exactly how the DME operates. He has written software for NA 1.9ls and now he has done software for 1.9ls with the DASC. He has been working on this for over a year now and I have been talking with him about it most of that time. Nick *knows* what he is doing.

    He has three stages for DASCs.

    Stage 1 keeps the AFPR and tunes the operation of the DME to handle the DASC better. Adjusting open/closed loop transitions, adjusts ignition advance and tweaks the mixture. He also gets rid of the speed limiter and bumps up the rev limiter.

    Stage 2 does all of the above but remaps the entire operation of the computer to be running larger fuel injectors. In doing this the AFPR is removed from the engine and all the fueling needed for boost is built right into the DME itself. The larger fuel injectors are actually a little smaller bore size as they aren't air shrouded so you need adapters to make them fit. With the stage the air feed line that runs to the injectors is eliminated so your engine compartment looks a little cleaner. See:

    http://ackthud.com/shawnfogg/pics/fu.../newengine.jpg

    and compare the fuel rail area to:

    http://ackthud.com/shawnfogg/pics/su...ger/engine.jpg

    Stage 3 does all of this but also includes a larger hot film meter (HFM) as well as a new filter and the associated plumbing required to put in the HFM and ITG filter. Again the DME is remapped for the larger HFM.

    As far as the installation of Stage II I had a little fun with my version of the injector adapters (that I had built to be used with the PCIII) in that I was getting a vacuum leak on #4 between the adapter and the manifold. I swapped out the O ring on #4 a couple of times but just couldn't get it to seal well.

    So I bought a set of adapters from Nick and after installing them today had a smaller leak there too but his have enough 'room to move' in them that I was able to reposition the adapter slightly on the injector (higher up its body) which fixed this. My version of the adapters are have no play in them when they are mounted to the injectors. I *think* the mounting point for the rear of my fuel rail isn't quite perfect on the D/A manifold. With the stock injectors it wasn't a problem but with the new injectors (which are a little shorter then factory) plus the adapters I think it was off just enough to keep the O rings from sealing quite as well as they should but by moving around the adapters position it fixed this.

    Anyhow with that squared away I finally got to actually drive the car with Stage II.

    I love it!

    Compared against stock the throttle response is so much nicer... no lag waiting for the AFPR. Part throttle operation under boost is worlds smoother then it was before and feels stronger there too. Now once you go into boost the car is going open loop so the DME will let it run richer as needed for the boost. With it stock you could easily be in boost but still be running closed loop so the DME was trying to keep the AFPR from making the mixture leaner. With it leaner then it should be it would knock and then the DME would pull a lot of timing out. End result is you can feel the engine sort of miss/not be as smooth as it could be when under part throttle boost when stock... esp. at high RPMs in the lower gears.

    Now it just moves up the rev band extremely smoothly part throttle with boost.

    Similar to this the transition point when you get right into boost always audibly knocked on my car. Once I heard it I never could stop hearing it. So far I haven't heard it yet with Nick's software. I'm sure that is due both to going open loop much quicker there as well Nicks adjusting the ignition timing to account for the boost.

    Full throttle feels just like part throttle... only with more power. Still very smooth and linear but pulls hard.

    If you watch the mixture on the D/A stock it tends to move around quite a bit WOT as the AFPR isn't the best way to handle fueling. If you have a clogged fuel filter or a weaker pump your mixture can really get crazy.

    Here is the RPM point and the O2 voltage from Nick's software on a second gear WOT run....

    1417 0.835
    1687 0.85
    1992 0.85
    2349 0.86
    2748 0.86
    3122 0.865
    3535 0.87
    3931 0.87
    4342 0.875
    4727 0.875
    5159 0.885
    5535 0.89
    5928 0.89
    6317 0.89

    My car with the DASC has *never* had the O2 voltages be this consistent WOT. I'll have to hook up my WB to really see what the AFR is.

    Same thing goes for ignition advance. Nick retuned the advance based on a forced induction engine. He retarded timing to account for the boost but because I'm now not triggering the knock sensors (due to better AFR as well as the retard) I'm pretty sure I'm ending up running more advance then I was with the stock software. This is because the stock software started out further advanced but when it knocks the DME pulled out a lot more timing to stop the knock. When I get a little more time I'll chart out some pre/post WOT timing runs for comparison.

    Both the part throttle and full throttle work Nick has done will make the operation of the DASC safer on the engine. And not having the AFPR any more increases the margin of safety too as you aren't stressing your fuel pump as much and you aren't cranking fuel pressures up really high under boost. It even makes oil changes simpler as you can get to the filter without having to move the AFPR out of the way.

    The speed limiter is gone now and Nick bumped up the rev limiter. He even programmed the DME such that you can now pull the DISA valve and the DME will not throw a fault. My LTFT was always between 3-4% with the DASC and stock software. With Nick's software my LTFT was 3.1% after driving it so far. IOW his programing for the 30# injects is almost identical to what my car did with its stock injectors during closed loop operation.

    If you have a DASC on your car you really want to talk to Nick about his software. nick@tech-nick.net

    Back to driving.....

    Shawn

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Turbo BMW E36 318iS
    Excellent stuff!

    I briefly exchanged some msgs with NickG a little while ago concerning the upgrade you speak of. Good to see it's progressing so well!
    Life is short. Run more boost.

    Turbo E36 318iS Coupe
    234rwhp @ 18psi (Mitsubishi turbo)
    C&V Dyno Dynamics Dyno (2002)

    Now running larger GT28 turbo.
    Waiting for 2003 Dyno Day

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    BMW 318is blk/blk DASC
    I wonder why NickG doesnt make any upgrades for the DASC M42 engine. I really want to make my engine more stable, and remove the speed limiter. I dont really care to put new injectors. Shawn, have you dynoed your car with the new upgrades? HP increase?

  4. #4
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    M3, 318is, Z3 2.3, E30 325 (Spec E30) Isetta 300
    I thought it was because the M42 can't easily use the HFM....I thought Nick had said in the past this limited how much he could play with that motor.
    EX-NASA SpecE30 Racer---NASA Florida Certified Instructor

  5. #5
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    M3, 318is, Z3 2.3, E30 325 (Spec E30) Isetta 300
    Of course....we are all waiting for Dyno runs, pricing and how much work is involved at each stage....
    EX-NASA SpecE30 Racer---NASA Florida Certified Instructor

  6. #6
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    "I wonder why NickG doesnt make any upgrades for the DASC M42 engine."

    The M42s AFM doesn't have the metering capacity to meter the extra airflow of the DASC. As such I'm not sure if Nick would have the resolution to do the mapping for DASC. The HFM on the M44s had additional airflow metering capacity which allows the DME to see the additional airflow. This gives Nick the points needed in the DMEs map to tune everything.

    "have you dynoed your car with the new upgrades? HP increase?"

    Not yet, I will at some point but it isn't a priority. I didn't do this to see more HP, I did it to improve safety, driveabiltiy and reliability. Because of the better tuning WOT I'd expect to see some HP increases (at the same RPM) but I don't think it would be anything like the dramatic/crazy/overblown claims RMS made about their setup.... which didn't work at all on the couple of guys cars that bought it here.

    Shawn

  7. #7
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    "and how much work is involved at each stage...."

    Stage I = remove your DME send it to Nick... (time passes).... reinstall DME. I think that one is $499

    Stage II = remove your DME send it to Nick.... to pass the time disconnect your battery, pull your fuel rail and injectors (cover the holes in the manifold while you wait) and pull the AFPR. Get your fuel return lines back to stock plumbing... how you do that will depend on the production date of your car. For me I just took the return hose from the AFPR and plugged it into the return off my rail. If your stock FPR vacuum line is connected to your t-body (1/97 and later cars) move that vacuum line to the spare manifold nipple. (Note: That appears to be a good idea for any 1/97+ car even leaving it without Nicks software) ... time passes..... reinstall your DME, install the new adapters and fuel injectors and put your fuel rail back in. Reconnect the battery. This is $849.

    Stage III = all of stage II plus you will be changing most everything in your intake from ahead of your throttle body with the parts Nick supplies. I'm not sure of the price on this one but I think it varies somewhat depending upon the production date of your car as the intake setups varied.

    If you installed your DASC the work for Stage II and III you have already done so it shouldn't be a big deal.

    Shawn
    Last edited by Shawn Fogg; 07-12-2003 at 06:52 PM.

  8. #8
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    Shawn, great review...Thanks. And those prices are pretty sensational too, for our market I cant wait for Nick to start doing some stuff with the OBDII S52s that we can start reading about

    Shawn, selfishly, I was thinking, what it would have been like around here if you had happened to have owned an E36 M3 instead of your z3 .... I was just thinking, Imagine all the things you would have discovered on our engines had you just made That fateful decison once upon a time
    ___________________
    Paul E
    '11 AW 135i ; Sold: '99 White M3 81k mi; Dinan SC kit, 6"/3.48" sc pulleys, Aftercooler: 10.5 psi-367 SAE rwhp/304 rwftlbs @80 degrees ambient (still with OBDII manifold & stock cats); DynoTuning by Nick G (techniquetuning.com); Speed Shop: Imported Cars of Stamford; AA-Aquamist Water Injection, exhaust, clutch; Fikse FM-10s; Koni Suspension; Stealthboxes

    http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a173/boostm3/

  9. #9
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    great report. Nice to see another satisfied customer of Nicks

    RENNtech 168mm Pulley and Tune | VRP Carbon Fiber Airbox | JP Shorty Headers | Eisenmann Race Exhaust | RENNtech Digital Lowering Module | 19" HRE 547R
    459 RWHP, 522 RWT

  10. #10
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    psk,

    Yup, Nick does very nice work.

    BTW, I forgot to mention the one potential downside of Stage II and above. Because Nick is running larger injectors to keep fueling the same for idle and cruise conditions the pulse width of the injectors firing is smaller.

    Where this will be a slight issue is if you have the OBC. It uses the pulsewidth signal to determine MPG and range. It is still basing the MPG/Range on the fuel flow of the stock injectors.... now the pulsewidth signal is shorter duration. So it is going to throw of the OBC and make it very optimistic. I'd expect about a 55-60% increase in reported MPG.

    With the DASC the OBC got a little screwed up anyway because of the AFPR. When under boost fuel flow was higher (because of the higher fuel pressure) then the pulse width duration would suggest to the OBC so that tended to throw off its accuracy anyway.

    I may end up using the PCIII to correct the OBC. It should let me dial in the OBC very accurately.

    Shawn

  11. #11
    Join Date
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    Regarding the OBC and mileage, if you multiply the reported MPG by .66 (or 2/3), you'll get the correct reading. So if 45mph is reported, the correct number is 30mpg.
    Nick Glantzis
    2005 330i ZHP auto with Technique Tuning turbo kit (currently For Sale)

  12. #12
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    Originally posted by NickG
    Regarding the OBC and mileage, if you multiply the reported MPG by .66 (or 2/3), you'll get the correct reading. So if 45mph is reported, the correct number is 30mpg.
    for those of you that carry a calculator in the car

    RENNtech 168mm Pulley and Tune | VRP Carbon Fiber Airbox | JP Shorty Headers | Eisenmann Race Exhaust | RENNtech Digital Lowering Module | 19" HRE 547R
    459 RWHP, 522 RWT

  13. #13
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    Originally posted by psk145
    for those of you that carry a calculator in the car
    Or can perform simple mathematics in our head
    Nick Glantzis
    2005 330i ZHP auto with Technique Tuning turbo kit (currently For Sale)

  14. #14
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    Nick,

    " if you multiply the reported MPG by .66 (or 2/3), you'll get the correct reading. "

    So if I put the PCIII on the signal line to the OBC I'd set it to +50% to get the OBC about back to how it was, right?

    Shawn

  15. #15
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    right.
    Nick Glantzis
    2005 330i ZHP auto with Technique Tuning turbo kit (currently For Sale)

  16. #16
    Join Date
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    93 318is
    Just wondering Nick, when will your website be up and running?
    "...time to burn some dust...eat my rubber."

  17. #17
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    The website is in the works. It will be ready shortly.
    Nick Glantzis
    2005 330i ZHP auto with Technique Tuning turbo kit (currently For Sale)

  18. #18
    Join Date
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    Question An Appointment with Nick??

    Nick..

    Can a consultation or an appointment for your services be arranged? I plan on "flying my 7" to Florida this December.
    Do you think we can hook-up for you to take a look at Baby? Maybe even book some dyno time somewhere for a thorough review of the programming?
    There has been alot of talk lately about 500+hp AMG-55s and I want some of that ass...
    A 600+ hp 740 6-speed should be up to the job.
    Do you want in?

    Regards,
    Simeon

  19. #19
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    Simeon,

    Sounds interesting, and possible. Drop me a line as the time approaches and we'll talk.
    Nick Glantzis
    2005 330i ZHP auto with Technique Tuning turbo kit (currently For Sale)

  20. #20
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    So what HFM did you decide to use for the Stage 3? My stock '95 M3 HFM is collecting dust on a shelf and my wife's SCed 318ti could sure do without that dang AFPR
    www.understeer.com
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  21. #21
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    Originally posted by bimmer95
    So what HFM did you decide to use for the Stage 3? My stock '95 M3 HFM is collecting dust on a shelf and my wife's SCed 318ti could sure do without that dang AFPR
    The 93-95 M50TU HFM (like the one you have).
    Nick Glantzis
    2005 330i ZHP auto with Technique Tuning turbo kit (currently For Sale)

  22. #22
    Join Date
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    Welllll what a coincidence How much would the Stage 3 setup run minus the HFM?
    www.understeer.com
    Your source for:
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    UUC Evo3 SSKs are IN STOCK - free 2-Day shipping!

  23. #23
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    Originally posted by bimmer95
    Welllll what a coincidence How much would the Stage 3 setup run minus the HFM?
    I'll email you with the details.
    Nick Glantzis
    2005 330i ZHP auto with Technique Tuning turbo kit (currently For Sale)

  24. #24
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    Thanks Nick!
    www.understeer.com
    Your source for:
    Stromung|UUC|Eurosport|Hawk|H&R|Koni|Apexcone HID|Short Shift Kits|and more
    UUC Evo3 SSKs are IN STOCK - free 2-Day shipping!

  25. #25
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    '96 318Ti
    Hello Nick,

    Will your upgrades affect DASC CARB certification?
    -David
    '96 318Ti

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