Unfortunate Incident at SPR Main during NASA TT

[jlcmd81]

I calculated more like 20g's...assuming he hit at 90mph. S2000's were seeing about 130mph on 10-1 straight.

Will remember his family in prayer.

Hans, 6 point restraint, race shell (not affixed on sliders) with head restraints has been sled tested at Wayne State in Detroit to allow driver survival in a frontal 50G deceleration. Right side net and intrusion bars for the doors for side impact.

I believe the Wayne State study suggested that a deceleration of 40 mph at impact equalled 50 G.

Appreciate the folks in BMWCCA CR for insisting on high level of driver safety equipment.

[seatown88]

I see this as a wake up call for me to get a side net. I was thinking that I am safe with all the current gear I have, but I am wrong. I need to order one.

[shim]

3g and 2g? That's nothing. I'm betting you found the limit of your data sensors.

-tammer

One of the guys in at the Portland race went head on into a tirewall and took a 5g hit...again, HANS did its job and he didnt even suffer a sore neck.

But I'm not bringing up g-force numbers to make it a contest, I just wanted to state how effective HANS is.

[JClark]

He's saying your impact was probably much harder than just 2-3g's. You probably maxed out the sensors.

The HANS is hard money to spend until you read a thread like this. RIP.

[Evergreen Dan]

I was very sorry to hear about this incident and my thoughts go out to his family and friends. If this spurs any upgraded safety equipment or practices in others, I think it truly honors him and brings a tiny bit of good to an awful, awful tragedy.

Peace and comfort to the mourning.

[essejM3]

The wife went to high school with Cale and said he was a really nice guy. He apparently had great taste in his hobby. All I can say is RIP, and my thoughts are with his family.

I explained to the wife what (speculation at this point) happened, and her response was "that is why people shouldn't be doing that". I really wonder at times if she has any concept that I actually W2W race my car at the track. She walks by the racecar in the garage every day

[JGood325]

I explained to the wife what (speculation at this point) happened, and her response was "that is why people shouldn't be doing that". I really wonder at times if she has any concept that I actually W2W race my car at the track. She walks by the racecar in the garage every day

LOL


A HANS device is on my list of Winter upgrades now. I'm heading to Summit Main this weekend without one, but will NOT be going 10/10s like I usually do. This was a wake-up call. This unfortunate tragedy will help countless people, I am sure of that.

[kishg]

The wife went to high school with Cale and said he was a really nice guy. He apparently had great taste in his hobby. All I can say is RIP, and my thoughts are with his family.

I explained to the wife what (speculation at this point) happened, and her response was "that is why people shouldn't be doing that". I really wonder at times if she has any concept that I actually W2W race my car at the track. She walks by the racecar in the garage every day

I have a feeling your better off leaving the subject alone at this point..

[getfast]

I have the opposite opinion. It seems like the subject of this thread is a good enough reason for full disclosure about track activities with all loved ones.

IMHO, YMMV, etc,

Jon

[Michael9218]

I believe the Wayne State study suggested that a deceleration of 40 mph at impact equalled 50 G.

Keep in mind that this is on a test sled with no energy absorption. There's a HUGE difference in a test sled and our production cars. Your car is designed to absorb A LOT of energy in a collision, especcially head on.

We tend to over attribute results to HNR's when people comment that so and so hit the wall at 5 G's and walked away without even a sore neck. At 5 G's you wouldn't have a sore neck without the HNR.

You would be surpirsed at how hard you can hit something in a production sedan and not need an HNR. There is a lot of energy absorption. Unfortunately, I found out the hard way.

Before you flame away, I'm not saying that an HNR isn't a worthwhile bit of insurance "just in case". But I've yet to read of an incident in a production sedan (crumple zones intact) where an HNR wasn't used and would've changed the outcome.

[D.R.]

One of the guys in at the Portland race went head on into a tirewall and took a 5g hit...again, HANS did its job and he didnt even suffer a sore neck.

But I'm not bringing up g-force numbers to make it a contest, I just wanted to state how effective HANS is.

Hey John,

That was me in Portland.

Your numbers from NJ are almost certainly less G than what really occurred. I've seen that in other crashes in the Cup and otherwise. The data systems aren't set up to read an impulse that short.

The use of safety devices in street cars is an imperfect world. I will always use a HANS when in a race car, but everything involving a street car on a track is a compromise. The Defnder system is very attractive as I am told that it offers side impact protection. We will have to see how it tests; it may be a good option for a more street friendly car without head restraint seats.

Either way Cale's loss is tragic. My sincerest condolences to his friends and family.

[DaBean]

That's very sad... It's always an unfortunate wakeup call when something like this happens.

It was definitely a bad weekend, this last one, especially for NASA... At Infineon, during one of the guest races, a fully-prepared RSX went straight off at Turn 1 into the Grand Stands.. luckily, the spectators were unharmed...

I'm not putting it to compare it with Cale... I'm just throwing out another crash - luckily the outcome was "positive" as the driver "only" suffered a crushed vertebrae, but it could have easily resulted in multiple casualties had there been more spectators in those centrally located grandstands, or had those who 'were' there been where the car landed.

Let this weekend's crashes remind all of us that we partake in a dangerous activity where, in a split second, things can go awry...

<<I can't post the link because of my post count...>>

[Krank]

Very unfortunate and tragic accident, best wishes to the family. Always hits close to home when something like this happens to another track junkie.

[ApexPerf]

Our condolences to Cale's friends & family. It is so unfortunate when it takes someone getting hurt or worse to think about safety equipment and I am not trying to make a sales pitch. We normally do not post on these types of threads in respect but just wanted everyone to keep in mind...

A driver can have a basilar skull fracture going 35 mph. It is so important to have a head & neck restraint and other safety equipment. The HNR is one piece of the safety puzzle. Everything (HNR, seat, belts, right side nets, etc) works together to protect you.

If you have questions about head & neck restraints or other safety equipment, please contact us, an authorized dealer near you or the manufacturer direct.

Below are the URLs for three HNR manufacturers. Hans and Safety Solutions both have dealers listed on their sites so hopefully there is someone near you that can answer your questions or give you hands-on assistance.

Safety Solutions - http://www.safetysolutionsracing.com/
HANS - http://www.hansdevice.com/
dfNder - http://www.defnder.com/

The dfNder is a new HNR being debuted at the PRI show in December so there will be even more HNR options on the market. In fact, the dfNder folks just posted something on this forum so check it out. Visting a racing safety supplier near you or speaking with a trained, experienced dealer can help you determine what safety items will work best for you and your vehicle.

[Car54]

Keep in mind that this is on a test sled with no energy absorption. There's a HUGE difference in a test sled and our production cars. Your car is designed to absorb A LOT of energy in a collision, especcially head on.

We tend to over attribute results to HNR's when people comment that so and so hit the wall at 5 G's and walked away without even a sore neck. At 5 G's you wouldn't have a sore neck without the HNR.

You would be surpirsed at how hard you can hit something in a production sedan and not need an HNR. There is a lot of energy absorption. Unfortunately, I found out the hard way.

Before you flame away, I'm not saying that an HNR isn't a worthwhile bit of insurance "just in case". But I've yet to read of an incident in a production sedan (crumple zones intact) where an HNR wasn't used and would've changed the outcome.

When you build a cage/roll bar, aren't you effectively reducing the crumple zones substantially? Even when you add seats and a harness you further reduce the car interior's and the human's ability to absorb energy.
I think many agree that Cale's outcome could have been different if he was wearing a neck restraint.

[Michael9218]

When you build a cage/roll bar, aren't you effectively reducing the crumple zones substantially? Even when you add seats and a harness you further reduce the car interior's and the human's ability to absorb energy.

Depends on the design. The more stock it is the less compromised are the crumple zones. A mod cage would certainly compromise the front zone. A roll bar and seat would do very little to effect the energy absorbing zones.

Harnesses do absorb energy. They work like a big rubber band and do stretch to slow your decceleration.

I think many agree that Cale's outcome could have been different if he was wearing a neck restraint.

Based on what has been posted I don't see how anyone would reach that conclusion.

A driver can have a basilar skull fracture going 35 mph.

Based on what evidence? Or maybe I should ask based on what probability?

[cosM3os]

Since this thread has already veered to safety, I have a question:

As I understand it, nets are used (particularly the right side) to control your head in a side impact in lieu of a seat with head restraints. Are they really as effective as a seat with head restraints? Is the seat the way to go?

Thanks,

[B.Watts]

As I understand it, nets are used (particularly the right side) to control your head in a side impact in lieu of a seat with head restraints. Are they really as effective as a seat with head restraints? Is the seat the way to go?

Nets control your shoulders and head. They control your body quite a bit more than the wing on a seat can. In a frontal or offset frontal impact, your head comes much further out of the seat than those wings extend. From what I can tell, the wings are most helpful in a direct side impact, and get less helpful the more the impact moves to the front. As your body rebounds, the net also helps guide your body back into the seat rather than your head/neck ending up outside of the wings. I've seen some good video somewhere of crash testing with nets, but I can't seem to find it anymore.

[woodym3]

I have the opposite opinion. It seems like the subject of this thread is a good enough reason for full disclosure about track activities with all loved ones.

IMHO, YMMV, etc,

Jon

I understand your thinking Jon. Several of us that were there Sunday discussed whether to tell our loved ones about Cale's incident. Two did after a few days and feel better for it. Myself and another are still staying mumm.

[cosM3os]

Nets control your shoulders and head. They control your body quite a bit more than the wing on a seat can. In a frontal or offset frontal impact, your head comes much further out of the seat than those wings extend. From what I can tell, the wings are most helpful in a direct side impact, and get less helpful the more the impact moves to the front. As your body rebounds, the net also helps guide your body back into the seat rather than your head/neck ending up outside of the wings. I've seen some good video somewhere of crash testing with nets, but I can't seem to find it anymore.

So am I "safe" keeping my seat w/o wings (and using the nets, of course). I hadn't budgeted for a new seat, but this thread got me thinking.

[Car54]

Based on what has been posted I don't see how anyone would reach that conclusion.

I guess the fact that many people associated with the incident are planning to use HNS for next year based on this incident. You may not be following the S2000 threads as closely as I.

[txse46m3]

Without a lot of specific details that will never be available, there is no way anyone can say that Cale's outcome might have been different with any alternative safety setup. Just to begin, we would need to know the car's velocity, yaw angle, and the angle of his car relative to the wall he hit. We would also have to know the orientation of his head, neck, and shoulders, the weight of his head and helmet, and the tension on his harness. These are all factors we might be able to take educated guesses at, but none of which we can know with the certainty required to make factual statements about what might have altered the outcome.


Frankly, the only thing that would have been sure to keep him safe from that accident would be to never have gone out on track. While I think it's a good thing that people look at what happened and make an attempt to improve their own safety and/or encourage others to do so, I think we should avoid "well if he" type conjecture. There's no factual basis for that type of conversation and Cale deserves more respectful treatment in death if he was as nice a guy as the people who knew him say he was.

[Car54]

Depends on the design. The more stock it is the less compromised are the crumple zones. A mod cage would certainly compromise the front zone. A roll bar and seat would do very little to effect the energy absorbing zones.

Harnesses do absorb energy. They work like a big rubber band and do stretch to slow your decceleration.




Based on what has been posted I don't see how anyone would reach that conclusion.



Based on what evidence? Or maybe I should ask based on what probability?

Without a lot of specific details that will never be available, there is no way anyone can say that Cale's outcome might have been different with any alternative safety setup. Just to begin, we would need to know the car's velocity, yaw angle, and the angle of his car relative to the wall he hit. We would also have to know the orientation of his head, neck, and shoulders, the weight of his head and helmet, and the tension on his harness. These are all factors we might be able to take educated guesses at, but none of which we can know with the certainty required to make factual statements about what might have altered the outcome.


Frankly, the only thing that would have been sure to keep him safe from that accident would be to never have gone out on track. While I think it's a good thing that people look at what happened and make an attempt to improve their own safety and/or encourage others to do so, I think we should avoid "well if he" type conjecture. There's no factual basis for that type of conversation and Cale deserves more respectful treatment in death if he was as nice a guy as the people who knew him say he was.

I honestly mean no disrespect by any means. I'm just trying to learn from this to become better educated. In order to not convey disrespect, I will remain silent on speculating or discussing theories.

[Michael9218]

I honestly mean no disrespect by any means. I'm just trying to learn from this to become better educated. In order to not convey disrespect, I will remain silent on speculating or discussing theories.

I'm with you. I think we all experience a bit of shock and fear in reading this type of report. We naturally want to know. Like I said earlier, no one means disrespect by it. I just wish we had more information and data on these tragic occurences.

[Evergreen Dan]

...I think we should avoid "well if he" type conjecture. There's no factual basis for that type of conversation and Cale deserves more respectful treatment in death if he was as nice a guy as the people who knew him say he was.

I respect your view, but I look at it differently. If I were to die in a track-related incident, and others debated what I could have done differently to improve my outcome, I would want such a discussion and it would honor me to see it result in increased safety for my fellow drivers.

I would like to see a post-incident analysis of track crashes similar to Accidents in North American Mountaineering does for climbing accidents or the aviation industry does plane crashes.

No one is blaming the injured, only trying to learn from them.