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Thread: Unfortunate Incident at SPR Main during NASA TT

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by RacerX View Post
    That simply is not true:

    http://www.elephantmotorsports.com/q...pro-p-532.html

    and:

    http://www.elephantmotorsports.com/contents/show/69

    Very sad indeed. I used the QFP and my HANS a couple times this year in my wifes mostly stock E46. I have owned my HANS device since 2001, shortly after the DE crash actually. I've always been a huge safey advocate and have spent a lot of my upgrade $$$ on this stuff.

    Cheers.
    Those are interesting. I have never seen that before. If the shoulder straps go all the way to the back and do not have too much of an angle then it looks like they would work. Cool. If you can not afford a seat and rollbar it looks like a great option.

  2. #27
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    RIP Cale,

    From what I've been told, the collision was lateral (hans doesn't help). A net is the only sure way to prevent head/c-spine traume during such an impact.
    I miss her, back in a BMW for the time being

  3. #28
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    Cale was a great, great guy. This really hits home hard...he will be missed dearly by many of the Mid Atlantic track guys.

    Congrats to him for winning TTC in NASA-MA. A buddy of mine spoke to him Saturday night and he was extremely happy and excited to have won 1st place again, so we know he was in good spirits.

    My prayers go out to him and his family in coping with such a tragic incident.

    As an aside, there are plenty of other threads where the efficacy of hans/harnesses are discussed.
    Last edited by M Dizzle; 11-11-2008 at 06:26 PM.


  4. #29
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    I am very curious as to what happened with his car, the brakes, and the impact. This hits too close to home, Summit Point is my home track and I detest reading about such tragedies. Dearly sorry.
    Last edited by CaracasE30; 11-11-2008 at 06:18 PM.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by txse46m3 View Post
    Maybe it's my limited imagination, but I cant think of an impact that would be better in a 3pt than it would be in a 5/6pt + HNR of some type.

    I've always been a little dubious of the safety requirements of TT because of my own inclinations for pushing hard in a competitive setting.
    pretty much sums up my reaction.

    either way, RIP
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  6. #31
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    How does one figure out what size HANS device to get/run? Not a whole lot of places I know of to try them on.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Nguyen View Post
    How does one figure out what size HANS device to get/run? Not a whole lot of places I know of to try them on.
    The best way is to drop by the track when you're not driving and ask someone if you can try theirs on. I don't have a good showroom-type shop for this stuff nearby, so that's what I did at a race where I was crewing.

    -tammer (20-M coming before spring)

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Nguyen View Post
    How does one figure out what size HANS device to get/run? Not a whole lot of places I know of to try them on.
    there isn't really much to the sizing. it goes by neck size. there are various rake angles too, but those are all for different layback seats. sedans all use the same model. i am sure one call to HMS motorsports would result in the proper size being shipped to you the next day.

  9. #34
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    The S2000 guys are discussing a group buy for HNS type systems. A friend of mine, and BMW Instructor chimes in on the R3. He views it as a superior alternative, especially for people who are in 3-pt student cars.

    http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=647633
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Car54 View Post
    The S2000 guys are discussing a group buy for HNS type systems. A friend of mine, and BMW Instructor chimes in on the R3. He views it as a superior alternative, especially for people who are in 3-pt student cars.

    http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=647633
    R3 seems preferred by instructors. good comparison of the various types here on trackpedia: http://www.trackpedia.com/wiki/Head_and_Neck_Restraints

    interesting discussion here : http://www.trackpedia.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4829

    HANS is definitely on my winter shopping list.
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  11. #36
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    defNder

    Anyone else see this new device being introduced in December at the PRI?
    http://www.defnder.com/index.htm

    Looks promising and makes up for some of the shortcomings of the HANS...and is SFI certified already.

  12. #37
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    RIP Kale. Another NASA-MA member lost.
    Quote Originally Posted by mlytle View Post
    there isn't really much to the sizing. it goes by neck size. there are various rake angles too, but those are all for different layback seats. sedans all use the same model. i am sure one call to HMS motorsports would result in the proper size being shipped to you the next day.
    yup, for sports cars and sedan racing, a 20 degree is fine. for formula cars, you should go to a 30 degree model.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael9218 View Post
    Anyone else see this new device being introduced in December at the PRI?
    http://www.defnder.com/index.htm

    Looks promising and makes up for some of the shortcomings of the HANS...and is SFI certified already.
    the guest driver from Germany's VW Polo Cup wore that at our Jetta TDI Cup NJ race. it was an interesting device and it looked like it provided better lateral protection.

    speaking of that weekend, I came out of a nasty accident during qualifying without even a sore on my neck, thanks to my HANS device. the data guy showed that it was a 3g frontal hit & 2g lateral hit.

    (whole driver's side was smashed)

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  13. #38
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    HANS has better units available in Europe. They have a system that interlaces the back of the belt so it can't slide off the hans as easily much like the defnder. They just don't sell it here due to marketing reasons....


    A window net is still a big help in preventing head injuries in a side impact. It keeps your head from exiting the car if its mounted far enough inboard.
    Last edited by robjohnson; 11-11-2008 at 11:58 PM.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by shim View Post
    speaking of that weekend, I came out of a nasty accident during qualifying without even a sore on my neck, thanks to my HANS device. the data guy showed that it was a 3g frontal hit & 2g lateral hit.

    (whole driver's side was smashed)
    3g and 2g? That's nothing. I'm betting you found the limit of your data sensors.

    -tammer

  15. #40
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    this is very sad, but it reminds me that safety is the number one priority. no matter what never skimp on safety equipment

    RIP Cale

  16. #41
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    This is really sad.

    And I'm heading to Summit this weekend with a roll bar, fixed seat, harness, and no HANS

    Any performance shops in the southeastern PA area stock HANS devices?

    I have a feeling I'm SOL.
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  17. #42
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    OG Racing is at the track.

    PM Bimmer3 right away and reference this thread.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Car54 View Post
    OG Racing is at the track.

    PM Bimmer3 right away and reference this thread.
    Thanks, will do!
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  19. #44
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    This from S2KI forum:

    Four of Cale's friends from Hagerstown flew a helicopter down to Summit Point today and I took them out to Turn 1 and we viewed Cale's car. We spent about 45 minutes looking at the skid marks and then went to the maintenance bay and examined his car closely, especially the tires and brakes.

    It doesn't look like there's going to be any accident investigation since it was on a race track the DOT doesn't get involved. I was a trained aircraft accident investigator in the Air Force and have some knowledge of auto accident analysis. After reviewing my in-car video, examining the car and the crash site my personal "most probable cause" is a catastrophic right side brake rotor disintegration which caused the car to rotate left.

    My in-car video shows a small "flash" from the right side of Cale's car that looked like tire smoke, but all 4 of Cale's tires were still inflated--I actually checked the air pressure. The car's right side brake rotors were both cracked which could have been caused by the impact, but the rear rotor was completely gone. The "tire smoke" could have been the brake dust and rotor debris from a right rear rotor disintegration. We did a sweep along the braking zone but didn't find any brake parts but BSR has been running training on the circuit. His brake fluid level was normal and all of his brake pads had plenty of material left.

    If one of the right side rotors broke up it could have pitched the car into a left hand slide. The loss of a rotor can also allow the brake caliper piston to fully extend which would allow the brake pedal to soften or even go to the floor.

    The skid marks at the track were easy to follow from about 50 feet from the edge of the track to the wall. The car was sliding with about 30-50 degrees of left yaw from on the track abeam the access road all the way to the wall.

    The car's right side hit the wall pretty much flat against the wall while still in the slide. He didn't hit right front like I initially thought.

    I now believe the car went to the left because of a brake failure, not because Cale was trying to take the access road to miss the tire wall.

    All the safety equipment was intact. The seat, harness, and cockpit were not compromised.

    After seeing the impact marks on the wall and seeing how much of a side impact it was, I realize how hard he hit and don't know if a head restraint would have saved his life, but it certainly wouldn't have made it any worse.

    On another note, Brenda and I plan to be there Thursday and Friday for the viewing, ceremony, and reception.
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGood325 View Post
    This is really sad.

    And I'm heading to Summit this weekend with a roll bar, fixed seat, harness, and no HANS

    Any performance shops in the southeastern PA area stock HANS devices?

    I have a feeling I'm SOL.
    OG is at the track, Apexperformance.net stocks them and are great people to work with. I'd be stunned if HMS doesn't stock them as well. Shouldn't be a problem to get one to you by tomorrow so that you have plenty of time to do the install on your helmet. Worst case, buy some helmet anchors and borrow a HANS. That would give you a chance to bargain shop and save a small fortune on shipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael9218 View Post
    Anyone else see this new device being introduced in December at the PRI?
    http://www.defnder.com/index.htm

    Looks promising and makes up for some of the shortcomings of the HANS...and is SFI certified already.
    Looks promising. Any idea what the price is?
    Last edited by txse46m3; 11-12-2008 at 12:08 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  21. #46
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    Car54, thanks for posting this. This is an unfortunate incident and we're all very sorry for Cale's family. I'm appreciative that we now have some understanding of what happened and why. The discussions that inevitably follow this type of incident regarding safety equipment aren't meant to disrespect or draw away from the remorse. We all have a vested interest in understanding the situation for our own safety and this is generally why these posts digress. It's unfortunate that we don't typically have this thorough of a post incident report to learn from.

    Quote Originally Posted by txse46m3 View Post
    Looks promising. Any idea what the price is?
    No. Their website promises only that it'll be an affordable alternative. I could find no mention of actual pricing.
    Last edited by Michael9218; 11-12-2008 at 12:14 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  22. #47
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    Very sorry to hear about this, my condolences to family and friends who knew this person.


    -----
    I don't think anyone has mentioned an interior right-side net in any of the prior responses as part of a complete restraint system. I was somewhat annoyed about having to put one in my car over the winter, but after reading and hearing this, my opinion has changed.
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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by tammer View Post
    3g and 2g? That's nothing. I'm betting you found the limit of your data sensors.
    Yup...top fuel cars see as much as 8 G's at launch and 5 G's when they pull the parachute. A 3G hit would be very very light.

  24. #49
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    I calculated more like 20g's...assuming he hit at 90mph. S2000's were seeing about 130mph on 10-1 straight.
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  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael9218 View Post
    No. Their website promises only that it'll be an affordable alternative. I could find no mention of actual pricing.
    $550+tax & shipping

    http://www.trackpedia.com/forums/sho...?t=4718&page=2
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