CEL o441 = incorrect purge flow

[Ron97M3]

Just got a Check engine light and when I used my OBD-II code reader (ctools brand via ebay) the code was 0441. According to the included manual that means = EVAP incorrect purge flow.

I let the OBD-II ctools code reader clear the code and it may take a while to see it again and I will wait for that confirmation, but I will bet I see this again by the time I burn a tank of gas or two.

I have in the past seen a small and then large evap leak code via my BMW only peake reader which turned out to be the plastic evap tank having a cracked nipple which I replace about 2 years ago.

I am aware that having the gas cap loose will also cause a large or perhaps small evap leak. I will try switching caps I actually have another unused gas cap go figure.

My feeling is the early obd-ii cars 1997 have evap controls issues.
Anybody have some experience with this code? I would bet it's likely my purge flow valve under the hood near the air filter box? Just going to ask and double check here before I buy one. FYI also sent a message to rmeuropean asking Art about this too.

Now -- to go fix my son's 2001 sl saturn it has a 0301 code according to the reader and that is is a miss on cylinder one. Guess it's cel central here today... good thing I can find and fix these things or it would get expensive. I would bet that unfortunately many more will be fixing there own cars rather than paying for new ones with our not so fundamentally sound economy now.

[lesl]

I put a light coat of white grease on the rubber. It not only adds to the seal, but makes the cap go on/off easier. CEL code never came back.

[bizlur]

I get these codes all the time. Seems to always come on at the same spot... I drive 25 miles to work on the highway... drive 3 miles on the bi-road, stop at a stoplight, it comes on.

I reset it and it won't come on for another week.

Always on friday when I work 130-10... I work this tomorrow, I bet it will come on.

[NeilM]

In theory, incorrect purge flow refers to the system that periodically purges fuel vapours from the tank area into the intake manifold and to the engine, where they're burned off. There's a long hose from the rear of the car that goes under the driver's side floor (along with the main fuel lines and the rear brake lines), up into the engine compartment, to the electrically operated purge valve, and to the intake. A leak or bad connection anywhere in this system can throw the incorrect purge fault code.

However in practice I've found that any vacuum leak can throw this same code, since all the vacuum hoses are basically interconnected.

So the fault can be in the engine compartment, at the rear of the car, or in between. I'd look up front first, simply because it's easier and engine compartment vacuum leaks are common. I imagine that a failed purge valve could trigger the same fault too, although I've not personally seen one fail.

Neil
96 M3

[Ron97M3]

Yesterday I I took a longer drive (about 80 miles) and at about mile 65 I got a rare friend the ... Incorrect Purge Flow CEL code. I also got a Large Evap Leak. Haven't seen this in maybe 2500 miles and 6 months now.

In the past I saw the Large Evap Leak with plastic evap tank nipple crack.
I never saw the Incorrect Purge Flow message.

So I really think the code to find now is the Incorrect Purge Flow.
There is a valve-switch on the charcoal canister and also another under the hood on a frame member on the drivers side. I figure my problem is one of these perhaps but which one?

I haven't messed with any hoses so it should be an age failure and I deem the Vac hoses less likely?

Just found this factory information Says to me OBD-II E36s and E38s have Evap system issues. Lots to inspect there. I suspect might be wiring to shutoff valve is rubbed and shorting? Otherwise I think it could be the shutoff valve is obstructed from closing or is not making a seal because of a poor o-ring or not seated fully. A lot more possible.

Evaporative Emission Control – On Board Diagnostic System
Model:
E36 – BMW 318i and BMW Z3 with M44 produced from January 1997
E36 – BMW 328i produced from October 1995
E36 – BMW M3 produced from March 1996
E38 – BMW 740i/iL and BMW 750iL produced from May 1997

Complaint:
The ‘check engine lamp is illuminated, and one or more of the following faults are set in the Engine Control Module (DME):
-In the M52 Engine the complaints include the tank venting system, minor leak (Code 251),
Tank ventilation (Code 252),
Shut-off valve, activated charcoal filter, jammed shut (Code 253)
or Tank venting system, major leak (Code 254).

-In the M44, M62 or M73 Engine the complaints include the tank venting system, major leak (Code 94),
Shut –off valve,
activated charcoal filter, jammed shut (Code 96) or
Tank venting system, minor leak (Code 97).

Remedy:
The check engine lamp will only be illuminated if the fault is present during two consecutive drive cycles.
To complete a check of these systems the vehicle needs to run in a way that allows these functions to work fully.
Any attempt to duplicate the specific driving condition will be unsuccessful,
thus it is recommended that the test modules through BMW specific test tools are utilized.
One driving cycle includes engine start up - drive - engine shutoff and will test the:
-Evaporative system – component functional check
-Evaporative system leak detection
-Tank venting/shutoff valve operation
-Monitoring catalytic converter efficiency
-Secondary air induction operation

If a fault occurs due to a major leak or a minor leak being present
then check if the fuel filler cap has been installed correctly.
This can be easily detected if the cap can be easily pulled off.
To clear the fault properly install the cap, printout the fault information,
clear the fault, select service functions, select DME system test, select 3- Leakage diagnosis, tank venting system.
If the fault returns the system needs to be checked for further leaks using the Evaporative System Leak Test Pool
with an A/C leak detector.
If NO leak is detected the following component checks need to be carried out:
-Check the fuel filler gasket has not been damaged.
-Check operation of purge valve.
-Check purge valve using a hand held vacuum pump to check the valve can hold a vacuum.
-Check the o-ring is properly installed.
-Check for any broken hose fittings in the expansion tank.
-Check the operation of the shut-off valve.
-Check the shut-off valve has been correctly installed into the charcoal canister.
-Check routing of hose going to the fuel tank pressure sensor. If the hose is pinched it should be rerouted or shortened.
If the fault occurs through the shut-off valve the following must be checked:
-The routing of the hose going to the fuel tank pressure sensor. If the hose is pinched it should be rerouted or shortened.
-The operation of the Shut-off Valve, Purge Valve and Fuel Tank Pressure Sensor should be tested.
-Remove the shut-off valve from t

Could be a Fuel Tank Breather Valve Part #1 here ...

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...72&hg=13&fg=15

This is Part #13901744150

I read on another thread how this purge valve was making a tick-tick-tick sound under the hood. Apparently this is correct as it is pulsed and this tick can be quieted by adding a rubber mounting piece the same as the air box uses.

Seem to recall a tick-tick-tick from this in the past but not now ... can't be sure. If I can't find worn wires or some problem with shutoff valve at canister in trunk then my best guess to replace will be this part.

It looks to be a scary bill if one must take this to BMW as they could spend a good number of hours trying to diagnose this one. Seems it would be cheaper just to say replace ... the purge valve, the evap pressure sensor, and the the fuel tank breather valve to start with. Man-o-man this smog CRAP is a killer!

[jumpin jack]

Hey Ron, my car had a similar problem. I had a "large evap leak" so replaced the part (13901744150). That helped, then later I got the "purge valve stuck closed", so I opened up the trunk and removed the valve from the carbon canister. I cleaned the valve with electrical connection cleaner (like carburetor cleaner, but safe for electronics), that seemed to do the trick so far.
Good luck, this is a real tricky problem.

[Ron97M3]

Hey Ron, my car had a similar problem. I had a "large evap leak" so replaced the part (13901744150). That helped, then later I got the "purge valve stuck closed", so I opened up the trunk and removed the valve from the carbon canister. I cleaned the valve with electrical connection cleaner (like carburetor cleaner, but safe for electronics), that seemed to do the trick so far. Good luck, this is a real tricky problem.

Thanks for the reply!

Was searching on the web and found lots of people complaining about the OBD-II 0441 incorrect purge flow code for all kinds of cars, notably Toyotas and Chrysler. No given solutions except typically people are replacing the shutoff valve.

Just now went into the trunk and pulled the shut valve on the charcoal canister. Got out some wire and carefully hooked it to the battery and then
tested the valve with 12 volts. It opened and closed just fine! I could see a little sticky brown residue from gas perhaps past the bigger o-ring on the valve body so I went to my local Crown ACE hardware where they have a room with the best selection of nuts, bolt, o-rings, etc etc and bought two o-rings for 75 cents. Keeping the original o-rings just to be sure. Anyway seal is tight now for sure and shut valve electro-mech is good. If the problem comes back in maybe 500 miles I will be looking at the Fuel Tank Breather Valve you replaced. After that if need be I pull the carpet and start looking at the hoses filler neck stuff.

Thanks for posting!
If my problem re-appears I will post here and you do the same please!
We OBD-II E36 owners need to figure out where the weak spots causing the Evap pressure CEL codes are in our cars. I figure a BMW dealership could charge hours and hours hunting for this one ... SCARY

[Ron97M3]

OK I need HELP now. I have a 97 m3 with ASC and Cruise Control. ... can anyone find a parts diagram showing the throttle cables where they attach on the down side of the main throttle body? I can't find this on realoem.com.
I broke the plastic connector piece where the cruise control cable connects with the main throttle body. Read below for the story.

I drove over 50 miles up to LA yesterday and the p0441 (aka BMW Peake FE) code appeared again. Note: This code happens after the car detects a problem twice I think and it appears to take driving more than 50 miles each time perhaps?

So I have already electrical checked that the shutoff valve in the trunk is working (it shuts off with 12v) and now I tried checking the Fuel Breather valve under the hood (nearly under the MAF) it opens (Breathes) with 12v. So now I am thinking I either have a clogged or pinched line somewhere between those two valves. SO perhaps I need to hook up air pressure in the trunk and see if it flows to engine bay perhaps. More on this later .... I will find the bastard!

OK but I need HELP now! I Broke the plastic throttle cable holder on the throttle body. I pulled hard on the vac line going past the throttle plastic piece from the breather valve and the throttle piece sheared off. I can't find that part on the throttle body diagram at realoem. I might be able to epoxy it and thankfully it the cruise control cable and not the main throttle that is affected. Since it is under tension I don't want to epoxy it go figure.
I also don't know if one can replace it by undoing a throttle axle nut for the throttle body or what, hard to see and understand as that place is spring loaded and more visible from the underside of the car.

FYI I just posted some internal BMW information on Evap system Diagnosis on this separate thread here ...

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1259736

I advise those that DIY a OBD-II E36 copy and print this stuff, I believe you
will need it sooner or later.

I have now checked the charcoal canister, the fuel breather valve, and the shut off valve. The valves move with voltage and the canister has no cracks and by blowing appears to have no obstructions. I visually checked the evap line running from the trunk to the engine bay and can't see any pinch.
Of now I go read and consider the codes I have been getting the the BMW system information. What a pain in the brain.

[NeilM]

Do you mean the plastic quadrant around which the actuating cable wraps? (Extreme right in attached pic.) I'm pretty sure none of the TB parts are available separately, so your best bet may be a junkyard TB to cannibalize. Used TBs can often be found on eBay too.

Re the original problem, it's been my experience that vacuum leaks elsewhere in the intake/vacuum system can generate that code, even though that shouldn't be the case. I'd check all the vacuum lines and connections, including the grommets where the oil separator and ICV connect, etc.

Neil

[Ron97M3]

your best bet may be a junkyard TB to cannibalize. Used TBs can often be found on eBay too.
Re the original problem, it's been my experience that vacuum leaks elsewhere in the intake/vacuum system can generate that code, even though that shouldn't be the case. I'd check all the vacuum lines and connections, including the grommets where the oil separator and ICV connect, etc.
Neil

Thanks for your supreme presence on this site Neil!

So one can have a Large Vacuum Leak from a vacuum leak under the hood besides the fuel breather solenoid? In old rubber lines or what is your experience? Car has been running fine with no sign of low engine vac performance issues. Do you know what a Vac pressure at idle would be right for a 97 m3? Have vacuum gauge and hand vacuum pump with gauge coming soon now.

Very unfortunate that I screwed up by pulling hard on the fuel breather vac line as I didn't then realize it was putting pressure on the plastic quadrant (so that is what it's called?) around which the cable wraps. I will try hard and remember to NEVER do that kind of "forcing it" BAD trick again.

Got any ideas for a ideal epoxy glue this perhaps? Got to handle 200+ degrees and shear stress. Can I replace (or glue unstressed two half pieces) by undoing the TB shaft somehow and then pulling off in place or must I pull the throttle body and then pull it apart or what? Hard to figure the TB spring loading having not worked with that before ... guess maybe that's why you need to buy the whole thing?

I am NOT going to play with removing the TB now as I have a evap system leak I am more compelled to fix here. Also don't need to complicate things with any then vac leak related to TB issue here. The Large evap leak (every two many mile trips?) with occasional Incorrect Purge Flow CEL codes (every 500 miles?) have got my fix brain charged up.

I will start looking for a used throttle body I have visited some Socal junkyards for fun ... but isn't easy to find an E36 318 much less an E36 6 cylinder. Finding a ODB-II M3 in the yards you can walk in in Socal here seems impossible. Ebay seems to be the best source for used E36 parts when needed. Thank the Lord that it isn't my main throttle cable quadrant that was broken then I would really be in trouble here and maybe forced to buy a new one

[NeilM]

So one can have a Large Vacuum Leak from a vacuum leak under the hood besides the fuel breather solenoid? In old rubber lines or what is your experience?

A few years ago I installed a the Eurosport/Conforti OBD-2 Cam Kit on my car. This comes with the OBD-1 intake manifold and a machined adaptor to allow the OBD-2 plumbing to work. The installation instructions indicated that some fine tuning of the clearances to the intake manifold support brackets might be needed, and they were correct. Couple that with my own inexperience at the time with the vacuum plumbing and you can see where that was going to lead, and it did. The fault code I got was the evap purge, but I didn't think that likely to have developed coincidentally. The actual problems in my case were a disconnected vacuum line under the manifold, and later a small leak where the oil separator connects to the manifold.

I'm not suggesting that either of these exact things is the case for you, only that it seems as if various vacuum leaks can trigger that same fault code. Based on those trouble shooting docs you posted (nice find!) that ought not to be the case, but somehow it is.

Car has been running fine with no sign of low engine vac performance issues. Do you know what a Vac pressure at idle would be right for a 97 m3? Have vacuum gauge and hand vacuum pump with gauge coming soon now.

Sorry, don't know.

Got any ideas for a ideal epoxy glue this perhaps? Got to handle 200+ degrees and shear stress. Can I replace (or glue unstressed two half pieces) by undoing the TB shaft somehow and then pulling off in place or must I pull the throttle body and then pull it apart or what?

You'll need to pull the TB no matter what. Glue wouldn't fill me with confidence.

Hard to figure the TB spring loading having not worked with that before ... guess maybe that's why you need to buy the whole thing?

The quadrant should come off with just a simple removal of the shaft nut. Of course it's at that point that the spring flies across the garage! Reassembly may be a trifle trickier than disassembly I'm guessing.

According to RealOEM (http://www.realoem.com/bmw/partxref....541433385%09):

Part 13541433385 (Throttle Housing Assy) was found on the following vehicles:
E36: Details on E36
E36 323i Convertible
E36 323i Coupe
E36 328i Coupe
E36 328i Convertible
E36 328i Sedan
E36 M3 Coupe
E36 M3 Convertible
E36 M3 Sedan

E39: Details on E39
E39 528i Sedan

Z3: Details on Z3
Z3 Z3 2.8 Roadster
Z3 Z3 M Roadster
Z3 Z3 M Coupe

So there's a variety of potential donors. In fact since you only need the quadrant you might even find some damaged TB as a part donor.

Neil

[Ron97M3]

Of course it's at that point that the spring flies across the garage! Reassembly may be a trifle trickier than disassembly I'm guessing.[/url]

I will try just undoing cable from hanging plastic piece and gluing together by first holding it in place for 10 minutes (ouch) and then taping for perhaps 24 hours. I also am not filled with good feelings for this one but it will be fun to see if It can actually holdin the longer term. It will require the right glue, some sort of quick epoxy. Note: I have no plans to give up the car and leave this issue for anyone to discover.

Part 13541433385 (Throttle Housing Assy) was found on the following vehicles:
E36: Details on E36
E36 323i Convertible
E36 323i Coupe
E36 328i Coupe
E36 328i Convertible
E36 328i Sedan
E36 M3 Coupe
E36 M3 Convertible
E36 M3 Sedan
E39: Details on E39
E39 528i Sedan
Z3: Details on Z3
Z3 Z3 2.8 Roadster
Z3 Z3 M Roadster
Z3 Z3 M Coupe[/COLOR]

From Neil -- So there's a variety of potential donors. In fact since you only need the quadrant you might even find some damaged TB as a part donor.

Question from Ron : do they all have cruise control? What years would fit 96+ odbII right?.

On the evap leak iissue ...
Just got done opening the rear wheel well to the evap pressure sensor and evap tank. Didn't smell any gas fumes, saw no cracked, loose, or pinched lines lines either.

I know a nice smog guy that perhaps would do a evap pressure test for me
(like obd-I cars?) he wouldn't have to report a failure there would he?

I really would like to know if there truly is a leak in my evap system. Otherwise I might be able to leak test by applying the same vacuum leak down testing the evap system with vac gauge in place.
Or maybe I could put a separate duplicate.BMW pressure sensor on the system and then run the output from that to my multimeter?
Was thinking it would be interesting to put led lights on two evao valves and have separate BMW evap pressure sensor hooked to be able to see what the evap self test is doing and seeing for test-failure in real time.

What do you think?

I will now go look for bad vac lines under the hood but I don't think I will find any. I haven't played there at all so they should be ok is my thinking.

[NeilM]

Question from Ron : do they all have cruise control? What years would fit 96+ odbII right?.

Yes to both of those.

I know a nice smog guy that perhaps would do a evap pressure test for me (like obd-I cars?) he wouldn't have to report a failure there would he?

I really would like to know if there truly is a leak in my evap system. Otherwise I might be able to leak test by applying the same vacuum leak down testing the evap system with vac gauge in place.
Or maybe I could put a separate duplicate.BMW pressure sensor on the system and then run the output from that to my multimeter?
Was thinking it would be interesting to put led lights on two evao valves and have separate BMW evap pressure sensor hooked to be able to see what the evap self test is doing and seeing for test-failure in real time.

What do you think?

And heck if I know to both of those!

I will now go look for bad vac lines under the hood but I don't think I will find any. I haven't played there at all so they should be ok is my thinking.

I'm not so sure about that. There's that problem of creeping age and debility — and for our cars. Those vacuum lines can dry out and crack, especially at the ends where they're stretched. The problem is that a lot of that stuff is tidily hidden under the intake manifold by BMW, and for that reason I've electively replaced a bunch of mine over the years when the manifold has been off.

Other than the old propane test (which I personally have never had any luck with on this car), painstaking disassembly and inspection seems to be the only option. With emphasis on the pain.

Of course if all else fails there's always the dealer. Their diagnostic electronics can reach further into the sensors than we can.

Neil

[ansonivan]

Curious if you ever resolved this, I'm having a similar situation: codes 251 and 228 always occurring together. So far I've smoke tested the intake system which is tight as a drum. I'm going to check all of the evap components in the rear next.

[Seans M3]

^^ I'd like to know as well

[chowfunstudios]

Having the same problem as well. Checked all connections and they all seem very tight even the ones in the wheel well.

[Maclaud]

Hi i have the same problem on my 98 323 is im having the same P0441 code,
i checked the purge valve on the charcoal canister but the funny thing is i plug two clables and test it with a batterie it opens and closes but when i plug it to the harnes and i turn on the car it dosent do anything, it stays open i checked the cables on the conector the red white and yellow works but i never get anything from the green blue one can this be it. i have also check that purge valve on the fron of the car thats conected to the vacum hoases when you open the switch it starts ticking i took of one of the hoases while the car is on and i can feel the suction what can this be? its pissing me off i been at it for the past two months and havent seen anything

[GoBimmers]

Today i had my car towed home becuase it would not start.. I was coming home from work and stopped to buy something at the store i shut off the car when i came back to start it...It started shaking and then shut off tried again gave it gas and nothing.. It would crank without a problem but nothing.. It happen to me 1 time before but it started seconds later i thought it was just bad gas.. Anyways a few hours later its started i went to Autozone got the code p0441 Evaporative Emission Control System Incorrect Purge Flow ?? Any Ideas what to try first??

[BMWManiac]

Bumping this, same problem. I replaced all vac lines and gaskets in engine bay when i removed intake. CEL for same evap codes. I have not check the tank in the wheel well, which is next, but was curious if anyone solved this?

[Braymond141]

Bumping this, same problem. I replaced all vac lines and gaskets in engine bay when i removed intake. CEL for same evap codes. I have not check the tank in the wheel well, which is next, but was curious if anyone solved this?

You're boosted. Do you have a check valve installed between the Manifold and the solenoid in the engine bay?

[BMWManiac]

You're boosted. Do you have a check valve installed between the Manifold and the solenoid in the engine bay?

Sorry, this is my Dads 97 328ci, stock with some cheapo intake

[BMWManiac]

Took off rear tire and was partially removed the tank. All the connections, clamps, all look good and there are not breaks in any of the plastic pieces....I'm wondering if the clamps are too loose though? Next thing is to remove the evap valve and bench test it.

Evap valve clicked when power was applied....hmmmm. What next, smoke test?

[tjm3]

The manual says the purge flow is monitored by the fuel tank pressure sensor but it's a stretch to believe that the sensor would give inaccurate info and not trip a MIL. On the other hand, I read somewhere (and can't find the source) that the purge flow is monitored by the O2 sensor(s) same as the Secondary AIR pump operation. In that case, a lazy O2 sensor might not be reacting fast enough for the ECU to pick up a rich mixture voltage spike when the purge valve is opened but also might not be slow enough for an oxygen sensor MIL.

[BMWManiac]

The manual says the purge flow is monitored by the fuel tank pressure sensor but it's a stretch to believe that the sensor would give inaccurate info and not trip a MIL. On the other hand, I read somewhere (and can't find the source) that the purge flow is monitored by the O2 sensor(s) same as the Secondary AIR pump operation. In that case, a lazy O2 sensor might not be reacting fast enough for the ECU to pick up a rich mixture voltage spike when the purge valve is opened but also might not be slow enough for an oxygen sensor MIL.

So, around 2500 rpms, I can hear ticking noise from the engine bay....now I'm thinking I have an exhaust leak at the manifolds and this would go in hand with your O2 sensors? I'm also getting large/small evap leaks detected