First of two problems today: Windows don't go high enough to seal with new top

[cyberman]

Is there a way to raise the stop position of the windows? Picture below shows the gap on dealing with now that I picked up the car with the new top. I "think" I saw a stop on the rear window guides when I disassembled them recently to fix the sliders.

I noticed in the how-to videos there are normally some washers installed at the factory for adjustment where the bolts attach the guides through the underside of the doors. I had none and I know someone was in there previously, so I'm wondering if he failed to put the washers back in. Otherwise, is there a way to adjust the top's frame?

The new top is very taut and I'm leaving it out in the sun this coming week to help it relax and settle in a bit. But the old top was taut too, from shrinkage and I know it did contact the seal all around, albeit just barely.

Gap2.jpg

[KBH22102]

Have you done the window reset?

[s8ilver]

Roll both your windows down. Close the doors. Key in exterior door lock and hold to lock while the windows roll all the way to the top and reset.

The washer stack ("shims" as BMW calls them), only goes under the fixed triangular window. I can't imagine the shop would have disturbed that though. They would have had to remove your door panel, door airbag if equipped, vapor barrier, & the main window at a minimum. Then they would have had to unbolt the triangular window in 3 places.

Not well shown (not shown at all actually), but #7(s) go(es) under the post of #11. Sometimes there is one, sometimes two. It was a height adjustment done during factory assembly.

https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=51_3643

[Corellian Corve]

QQ - Open your door, and try to pull up on the back of the window (gently). If you can, the rearward slider is broken. I had this same problem.

There is also a stop that can be adjusted, however from my experience that stop changes the overall height the window can go up, not just the rear. How is the front of the glass relative to the small vertical window?

[cyberman]

Key in exterior door lock and hold to lock while the windows roll all the way to the top and reset.

Nothing happened, maybe a malfunction of some sort? But when I roll the windows up, they are definitely hitting the stop (a hard stop, BUMP). Or maybe it wasn't a feature in early models...

If you can, the rearward slider is broken.

Recently replaced all four sliders in the doors.

There is also a stop that can be adjusted, however from my experience that stop changes the overall height the window can go up, not just the rear. How is the front of the glass relative to the small vertical window?

On both sides, the front is higher and just kisses the seals (i.e. it could be a tad higher).

The washer stack ("shims" as BMW calls them), only goes under the fixed triangular window. I can't imagine the shop would have disturbed that though. They would have had to remove your door panel, door airbag if equipped, vapor barrier, & the main window at a minimum. Then they would have had to unbolt the triangular window in 3 places.

Not well shown (not shown at all actually), but #7(s) go(es) under the post of #11. Sometimes there is one, sometimes two. It was a height adjustment done during factory assembly.

I had no washers (shims) at all between the bottom of either track and the door when I took them apart. Given other things that were done to my old girl, perverse things, unnatural things, I wouldn't be surprised at any abuse she suffered.

Maybe the top is so taut it's distorting the frame a bit? In any event, Since other than the window reset there isn't anything that can be done without going into the door(s), I suppose I'll be mucking around in there again and experimenting.

Googling, I did find this on zroadster.net:

You need to remove the door card, and take a look inside the door where the mechanism is. You will see a bright metal screw attached to one of the linking arms...adjusting that screw controls the stop point on the upward stroke.

But I could almost swear that when I took it apart to replace the sliders, I saw and felt a stop at the top of the rear guides.

Also, and it might be an angle issue:

As far as I'm aware the angle of the window is dictated by the fixed quarter light which guides the whole pane. But you'd only want to adjust that if the gap was bigger at one end of the pane than the other.

[Corellian Corve]

There is an up stop, and a down stop, that can be adjusted with a T40 (I think) torx.

However, AFAIK this only adjusts the TOTAL height of the window. It does not adjust the "tilt" of the window.

What it looks like, in your picture, is that the rear portion of the window is not going up far enough, but the front part does. Maybe a better shot of the whole glass at the full up position will say if that's right or wrong.

Also, is it different when you try to raise the glass with door open?

Again - it's hard to say what's off. I just pulled regulator out of a Z3 and they are pretty fixed in the door - not a lot of adjustments that I could see.

In fact, the regulator just bolted in to fixed positions. I did have to adjust the stop to keep the glass from going up too far - but like I said that was the total glass height.

[s8ilver]

More info (and as usual, best links are from @Vintage42):

https://www.bimmerfest.com/threads/b...%20windows.%22

A bit different as the topic is about the window wanting to go too high, but maybe the module reset procedure is in your future.

Does the window go all the way down?

[Colorado Z3]

To me it looks like the shop that installed your top did not align the rubber window seals. As you go to the back of the car less of the rubber window seal is exposed. If the seal was parallel to the top it would be very close to sealing like the front.
My top does not cover most of the rubber seal like your picture shows.
Do you remember if your old top covered the window seals like it does now?

[Corellian Corve]

Oh that's a good catch!

[Mr Bingley]

It just seems more likely, given that this happened immediately after the top was replaced, that problem is not that window doesn't go up high enough, but rather that the top doesn't go down low enough.

[cyberman]

My top does not cover most of the rubber seal like your picture shows.
Do you remember if your old top covered the window seals like it does now?

I think that's the "rain gutter" feature Robbins adds to some or all of their tops and my old top didn't have them. I don't know how much it helps, but makes good marketing story, "Built-in Rain Gutters".

but rather that the top doesn't go down low enough.

It's possible. I stumbled on a Vintage42 post from years ago when he got his top and he said it was incredibly hard to latch for a few years. So maybe time will let the canvass relax a bit and help. But the more I looked at this, the more I think it was my mistake back a month or two ago when I replaced the sliders. I didn't realize there was any adjustment in the tracks, that one just bolted everything back together, although I checked and didn't find any shim washers at the bottom.

I dug this up from a 2016 thread on another forum dealing with the angle issue:

If you have a look at the diagrams on the "how to" I posted, you will see the short rear channel with the plate at the top which acts as an anti theft cover for the door lock. The rear channel is secured by the bolt at the bottom of the door, and a 2nd bolt hidden behind a small rubber grommet on the edge of the door at the top.

The front window channel is secured by one bolt under the door and 2 more behind the door card at the top. It also forms the complete front triangular widow frame complete with glass.
You will need to secure the front window first, but do not tighten it so that it is completely locked down - just firmly enough so it won't move around if lightly bumped. Make sure the small window front edge is snug up against the wind screen edge seal and follows the same angle as the windscreen all the way down.

Then lower the main window, and with the door card removed, make sure the rear channel is butting against the glass along the edge of the glass and again tighten the screws firmly but not 100% tight. This will ensure that both front and are channels are parallel. Now raise the window fully and close the door. Check the top edge of the window for parallel to the roof rubber seals. If it is not correct, you can "angle both the front and rear channels to compensate. Again do the front channel first then the rear. The amount of adjustment possible is not a great deal, and is done by slightly loosening the screw under the door and slightly loosening the upper mounting screw(s) and moving the channel forwards or aft. Having done the front adjustment, tighten the screws firmly and then do the rear channel. This can be done with the window raised up so it will allow for easier movement. Check the top edge of the window again for alignment. If you have made full use of the adjustment available, and it's still not right, you may want to check the 2 white nylon / plastic slides on the winder mechanism for wear and / or breakage which may be affecting the position of the window glass. If the are in any way damaged, you will need to get new ones and grease and fit them.

Next is to check the gap between the door edge and the front fender. They should create a parallel gap all the way from top to bottom. If this is not the case, you may want to fit some shims to the appropriate hinge to square things up - unless doing so will worsen the window top edge issue.... if it will assist in getting the window top edge aligned, then go for it. A piece of galavanised flat sheet should be adequate. It's less than 1/2mm thick. Obviously you will need to drill holes for the hinge bolts to pass through, and shape it appropriately. Alternately, try PM'ing Andy (Spurs fan in a coupe).... he may have some shims from one of the cars he has broken.

Finally, if you're going to replace the white nylon / plastic slides, best is to completely remove the winder mechanism and give it a thorough clean and on replacement, try to bolt it in to assist the alignment of the window top. There isn't much allowable there, but a small adjustment at the bottom becomes a substantial enough movement 3 feet up at the top of the window.

Thread is here: https://www.zroadster.net/forum/view...407003#p407003

So the first thing I'm going to do is work on the angle of the window(s). If that adjustment doesn't help, I'll start looking at other things. I noticed in one thread that the seals can be shimmed out a bit if needed, but I didn't find anything on moving those seals (or the top) down to make the windows touch parallel to the seals. The doors appear level per the evenness of the gap.

As an aside, I ran across an answer to another leak problem that is subtle and something I'll inspect for although it has nothing to do with the present problem. The thread explores a problem with water paths through the seals and one little rubber plug that can break free and allow water to divert into the cabin: https://www.bimmerfest.com/threads/c...r-seal.254611/

The photos are very helpful and it's an easy check to make and an easy fix if the problem is apparent.

[Colorado Z3]

Before you go tearing into your doors there is a very easy yes no question to ask, did your window seal before you had the top replaced? With the gap you have you would have heard it whistling when you drove it and you never mentioned that before.

There is a horizontal and vertical adjustment with the three metal channels that the rubber seals mount in. I would take it back to the installer and have them adjust it properly.

[Mr Bingley]

There is a horizontal and vertical adjustment with the three metal channels that the rubber seals mount in. I would take it back to the installer and have them adjust it properly.

+1

[Corellian Corve]

+2

And a better picture (a little further back) would be helpful to see where the window glass is sitting relative to the front runner / vertical glass.

[Vintage42]

.

[cyberman]

Before you go tearing into your doors there is a very easy yes no question to ask, did your window seal before you had the top replaced? With the gap you have you would have heard it whistling when you drove it and you never mentioned that before.

There is a horizontal and vertical adjustment with the three metal channels that the rubber seals mount in. I would take it back to the installer and have them adjust it properly.

The old top was so bad I didn't bother to inspect the seal fit much, but I do recall looking at it before I took it in and the windows did just reach the seals. On the driver's side, if the window was rolled up while the door was closed, it jammed against the seal incorrectly and curled it up a bit. But if I rolled it up and then closed the door, it did contact the seal.

I'll post more pics later this morning. In my research about this, I found information about those channels and the fact that they have shims (factory offers 0.5 mm and 1.0 mm). They said you could carefully remove the rubber, then loosen the bolts and put shims in to move the seals out, but I saw no mention of up/down adjustment. One post noted that the shims often stick to the frame and then drop off and get lost during top installation. The post also noted that one should use a dull edged tool to push the rubber back into their frames. So, I'll see if it looks easy enough to do and try it. I like learning and doing things myself, I just wasn't up to doing the entire top installation. Note the top installer noticed the gap and pointed it out to me, suggesting I needed new seals, so if you're correct then he really didn't know the procedure in regards to the seals. The seals look okay in my opinion.

In all this, I did come across a lot of things I didn't know about care of the top. The basics: Put the top back up at the end of the day. I was in the habit of leaving it down for very long periods during the summer and I left it down for the entire winter.

Also note: The Robbins' A5 (German-made, "Accoustic") material is very quiet. Other than the noise from the gaps we're discussing, it does cut down the rushing air sound and looks very nice.

[IndianaRoadster]

In all this, I did come across a lot of things I didn't know about care of the top. The basics: Put the top back up at the end of the day. I was in the habit of leaving it down for very long periods during the summer and I left it down for the entire winter.

[/QUOTE]

I did not realize this. Mine has been down since last spring! What is the consequences of leaving it down? We only take it out on nice days and evenings. Even in the fall we put the windows up, windscreen up, heated seats on and heat turned up. As long as your just cruising around town it's very comfortable. Maybe I should go out to the garage and put it up. What's others opinion?

[cyberman]

Mine has been down since last spring! What is the consequences of leaving it down?

I suspect mostly increased shrinkage rate. But also, in my case, at least, I think the seals around the window were crushed a bit and deformed, as the pics below may explain. I don't want to take my top down yet as it's still being stretched and seated on the frame.

When I went out to the garage this morning to take more pictures, I was amazed to see the problem seems to be resolving itself. The seals on both windows now line up better and the vertical gap is gone. I can only presume the extreme tautness of the new top was deforming the frame a bit and the canvass is relaxing a bit now. Robbins recommends a minimum of 24 hours before taking the top down, but some say a week or more and it's chilly here which may slow down the relaxation. That's the good news. The bad news is that the short seal in the middle appears to be deformed and doesn't push out against the window(s) and portions of some of the other seals have the same issue. I know some of this can be corrected by removing the rubber, loosening the bolts holding the rails onto the frame and shimming them out, but due to the deformations, I doubt this will wholly fix the issue.

Here is the driver's window, and as you can see there is no vertical gap now:

Driver2.jpg

But looking down at it, the center seal and the part of the seal to the right of it are deformed and not touching the window. Since both seals are affected in adjacent areas, I suspect they were compressed during storage. Time and higher temps may help them resume their molded shapes and some shimming may also help:

Driver1.jpg

The situation is better on the passenger's side as the "angle" problem also seems to be resolved:

pass2.jpg

But here too, there are deformations in both the center seal and adjacent long seal preventing the seal from contacting the window:

pass1.jpg

The gap(s) between the seals and the window are at least 1/8" and probably closer to 3/16". That latter figure is 0.1875" which would take about four 1mm (0.04") shims, probably more than are recommended.

So, I'll wait, leaving the top up and see what happens over time. There aren't any "top-down" temperature days in the forecast for the next few weeks, so I can live with the top up for a while.

Afterthought (edit): I have plenty of 1/2" sheet foam left over from the speaker job, I might cut some long strips of it off and try to stuff those seals...

Thanks all for your help and advice. Today's work will involve the fun of mixing 2-part Permatex Plastic weld and either fixing or permanently destroying my "rebuilt in Bulgaria" DISA valve.

[cyberman]

I spent some time this morning moving the seals outwards. It really wasn't hard to pop the rubber off and then back on. When I took the metal frames off, some original shims were still stuck on the back of them with some kind of glue. The T15 button-head cap screws holding them on are short and I used stacks of washers between 2mm and 3mm to bring them out as far as I dared. I had to remove the washers to get a little more thread. It fixed the problem in some places and brought the gap to down to an "almost fixed".

There is no way to feed foam inside since the ends of the rubber are closed. I'd assumed they would be just extruded, but I suppose they're molded, although I can't figure out how.

Up/down and side to side play is minimal, perhaps 1/16th of an inch off center in any direction and allowed by oversize holes in the metal frames. It would not have cured my "angle" problem.

I did notice one problem that contributed to the in/out gap on the driver's door. Recently, when I took the door apart, I either failed to tighten, or insufficiently tightened the bolt on the bottom of the door securing the window track (and vent window). That allowed the window to move outwards perhaps 1/16th of an inch.

Oh, but to redeem myself, I noticed the 25 year old BMW key fob was dry and dirty, so I treated it with leather reconditioner and it's back to black and shiny. When's the last time you took care of that absolutely critical component?

Here is the center seal frame and rubber. You can see the shims:

center seal.jpg

Here's the driver's side door. On both doors I shimmed the short center piece and on the driver's side I removed the two rearward bolts holding the frontmost frame and worked a washer stack in behind it.

door seal fixed.jpg

[cyberman]

Unfortunately, even a small gap results in a horrendous wind-rushing noise. I may eventually have spring for new top and center seals:

~60$ X 2 = $120 for the center seals
~$80 X 2 = $160 for the front seals
Total: ~$300 with shipping

Once again, it's not "the economy stupid", it's "the rubber stupid".

[Vintage42]

The front and center frames are slotted horizontally. Could you Dremel the upper edge of the slots to drop the frames 1/8 inch, to lower those seals to contact the glass?

[Mr Bingley]

At this point I think a couple of days spent parked in the hot sun with the top up is required. I wouldn't go slotting anything or replacing anything until you've at least done that.

[RedRedZ]

Did the straps get replaced with the top? Can you pull the top down to the window by pulling on the frame from inside?

[cyberman]

Did the straps get replaced with the top? Can you pull the top down to the window by pulling on the frame from inside?

No, straps were decent. I haven't tried raising and lowering it as I'm giving it time to stretch.

At this point I think a couple of days spent parked in the hot sun with the top up is required. I wouldn't go slotting anything or replacing anything until you've at least done that.

Agreed, There was one slot in the center frame, but not positioned for a bolt to go through. The rubber holder metal is pretty thick, I'd have some difficulty slotting it if I wanted to go that way. But let's see what happens over time. It obviously moved downwards the over the first night and maybe it will adjust itself down some more.

Thanks again, everyone, for your help and suggestions.

[cyberman]

None of you purists will like this, but I did finally cure the problem. After contemplating my navel for a while, I came to the conclusion that some suspicions posted above were correct, namely that the top wasn't installed properly. I realized that on both sides there is an indent in the sealing rubber where the windows used to make contact and in both cases the intent is about 1/4" higher than it was. I suspect the top was stapled (or otherwise fastened) to the framing members a bit loosely and perhaps there is some adjustment in the frame mounting to raise or lower to adjust the slack. Whatever the reason, now that the canvas is "seated", I fear giving it back to the shop for a redo.

So, as with all things non-critical with my fun driver, I came up with an alternate solution since it was easy and didn't involve investing another $500 or so in six new seals which may or may not work. I purchased some D-shaped weather seal tape and used it to extend the seals. It does the job and isn't noticeable when the windows are up or the top is down.

For $10 I purchased it at Home Depot. It comes with peel off sticky tape on the back side. It's actually two D's side-by-side which can be separated. I didn't separate them and for back-up I got some Locktite "shoe glue". If they fall off, I'll secure them better with the Locktite, but for now I'm just testing it with the only the sticky tape. I was happy to confirm that the process of raising and lowering the top doesn't stress the seals in any way and they don't bump into anything.

Here is the stuff I purchased:

1.jpg

Here is the strips are installed with the windows down:

3.jpg

And here with the windows up - no more gap although it's hard to tell, and bye bye wind noise:

2.jpg