One tip that might help with the butyl tape is to make sure as you're laying it along the door is not to stretch it, keep it thick/uniform all along the way. Learned this the hard way on 300ZXs. Their tailights use oem butyl tape and it's the only way to seal it, as there is no gasket.
I found out the vapor barrier had nothing to do with the leak, it was an effect from a leak on the rear quarter window. I took the easy way our and caulked the window with clear silicone caulk. I did this to both rear doors and never had a leak again. The part circled in the picture is the root cause. I had someone spraying the car with water while I had the door panel off and was able to diagnose it.
Keitho64
06 GTO 6-Speed
03 BMW 530 Sport 5-speed
69 911T RS30 Clone
64 Corvair Monza
Please stop calling the Sound Insulation a Vapor Barrier. As many have learned, most recently Keith, it is terribly misleading to call it that. Instead of looking for leaks in the right places, people are wasting time messing with their sound insulation panel.
The sound insulation only needs to be stuck to the door so it stays in place. It does not need to be hermetically sealed. That is because it is inside the door and not exposed to the outside. If the sound insulation is wet, you have a leak someplace else. The most common cause is worn or damaged inner or outer door seal. However, as Keith discovered, it can also come from window gaskets or, in very rare occasions, from the door handle.
Case in point, I pulled out the sound insulation on my rear door to troubleshoot the window regulator which turned out to be damaged. I left the insulation out for a week waiting for a new regulator and there were two huge rain storms. Not a single drop made it into the cabin. The rear floor was bone dry when the rain stopped.
Great info. I was close when I used dabs of butyl to close the 4 small holes at the ends of the rubber seals. That reduced the water ingress but I'd still get damp sills but not soaking.
Last night I took your path and put a strip of clear sealant in the same location you did along the rear quarter window. Just tested with a downpour from the hose. All us bone dry on the door sill
well after a massive downpour of rain..I mean massive. Opened both rear doors (one of which I had the door panel off, but vapor barrier very solidly still in place) and...
damp sills, especially near towards the front. Carpet and everything totally dry, but definitely still small drops that are coming down from the backside of teh door panel/from behind the vapor barrier.
Plastic part of the sill should be completely dry, right?
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1438040144.549928.jpgImageUploadedByTapatalk1438040159.146229.jpgImageUploadedByTapatalk1438040174.680921.jpgImageUploadedByTapatalk1438040191.215721.jpg
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1438040299.988575.jpg
Last edited by lesguy; 07-27-2015 at 07:42 PM.
additional pic of that 1/4 rear window with good bead of silicone sealant all along the rubber seal
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1438040330.689723.jpg
Last edited by lesguy; 07-27-2015 at 08:34 PM.
sealed the entire rubber window seal for both rear passenger doors with the clear silicone. Repeated the downpour test. Plastic sills completely dry. On the door with the door card still removed, zero water drips visible.
So it appears the root cause (at least in my case) is the seals along the door/base of the windows for the rear doors is no longer sealing properly.
Yes, I realize lowering the rear windows will destroy my "fix" of silicone sealing the moving window. Not an issue for me, as I cant tell you the last time I've lowered rear windows. But my long term fix will be to actually replace those seals with new OE units.
Last edited by lesguy; 07-31-2015 at 08:03 PM.
After having both door panels off multiple times, trying multiple methods, here is what I've found:
Even after a test of sealing the actual rubber "wiper blade" areas up very well with silicone, I was still getting drops of water on the plastic door sill area during car washes and during rain. And each time I opened the panels I found that the vapor barrier were losing their "stick" to the Butyl(which was still sticking very well to the metal of the door itself).
So I finally gave up and used the black RTV caulking to seal just the entire lower horizontal edge of the vapor barrier, against the old butyl/door. That was 4 weeks ago. ZERO water egress onto the black plastic sill since then. I even went so far as to remove the clear silicone I had placed all allong the window/rubber door wiper blade areas from the car. Same: ZERO water egress into the black plastic door sill.
So for me, either I needed brand new vapor barriers that would allow the new butyl to stick well to the barrier? Not sure. But either way, the key seems to be ensuring a solid, tight long lasting seal along that lower horizontal varpor barrier edge
Great source of info... Two thumbs up & a hat off...!!!
As a vapor barrier guru of sorts (unfortunately), wanted to add some additional info to this thread.
A very very solid engineered solution that also works fantastically over time (for those not wanting to use silicone sealant at all) is the addition of the plastic sheet method mentioned here
http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...-barrier/page2
One thing to note: resealing just the vapor barrier usually solves the issue of too much water coming down the backside of the door card and coming over the doorsill and onto the carpet. However, oftentimes there is still water coming down the backside of the door card, pooling up onto the actual plastic doorsill part. Eventually the rubber section of the plastic doorsill portion begins to go from back to dark brown, then will start to dissolve. Due to water sogging repeatedly. Also, the lower horizontal section of the backside of the doorcard turns black (mold) and also gets soft/soggy and begins to degrade. It's due to the vapor barrier no longer stopping 100% of water from getting past the vapor barrier.
The plastic sheet method redirects water completely away from the backside of the vapor barrier. Not sure why BMW didnt put these plastic sheets there from the factoy. I've owner other cars that have this plastic sheeting in place.
So, when it rains or after a car wash, check your doorsills. If there is any water at all on the black plastic pieces? You've still got water egressing where it should not
I found that the 3M window weld works great; the key is to heat it up and then to use a roller to really press the vapor barrier down nice and firmly
It's an old thread but I just want to add that this issue applies to the F10/F11 as well (believe it or not). The Butyl bead string stuff recommended by BMW is still being used, and when talking to the local dealer a few days ago, they still follow the recommendations from BMW; replacing the barrier with a fresh string of 6mm Butyl. When discussing this subject with an expert (who is not employed by BMW) he said different. You can rip the barrier off if being careful, then make sure there is no residue left on the door or the barrier. If there is any, try remove first by peeling, then using alcohol, and if neccessary, use aceton. It will not melt the barrier foam, but might affect the paint, so be careful.
[IMG]https://*******/photos/GKsw2MkmzuDMVkdP7[/IMG]
BMW Rear door sound barrier
[IMG]https://*******/photos/fYrsv9BqUMw6aj5R6[/IMG]
Doesn't stick very well...
[IMG]https://*******/photos/Q455JwLkXRd2P4WF6[/IMG]
Hey, now I see why it leaks...
[IMG]https://*******/photos/7HX7bXnis3TGc1CV7[/IMG]
Sound barrier taken off
[IMG]https://*******/photos/BPJ6Tm7uFducQWx29[/IMG]
The other side (seems pretty good...)
[IMG]https://*******/photos/KK6xeRaePdUkozCo9[/IMG]
Added some "wurth" glue....
[IMG]https://*******/photos/a9QUixhi8vpUY9hHA[/IMG]
The original sound barrier put back on...
[IMG]https://*******/photos/4mokZewLJcgpM9Lm7[/IMG]
A close-up of the new bond...
[IMG]https://*******/photos/VdxwKM7VJP8FwPqi7[/IMG]
This is the stuff I used (maybe not available in the united states of americanos....)
F10/F11 also suffer from this problem. I was recommended using this stuff from Wurth instead of the original 6mm butyl string.
The local BMW dealer said it was impossible to remove the vapor barrier without destroying it, but it turned out that it wasn't hard at all. Got it off pretty nice.
New bond applied:
Original vapor barrier refitted:
I am pretty sure this is not going to leak again in the near future...
I think that we've established that if you live in the south, like I do (Houston, TX), the butyl bead is NOT a good, reliable, long-term solution to this rear drivers' side door leaking into the rear floorboard.
I have looked at the trail of water and dirt upon removal of the panel. No matter HOW you prep the butyl adhesive, it eventually gives way.
I'm ready to clean that stuff all off, and use the black GE Silicon II . I'm NOT paying $27 for that Wurth stuff. I'm going to use the GE stuff, liberally. Especially to create a lip above that lower horizontal run. And, if it's more permanent than the butyl, so be it. I don't EVER want to deal with the mess of that butyl crap again!
If I have to pull it off for maintenance, I'll pull it from the painted metal, and take my chances with the vapor/sound barrier. I might even just put more silicon over the dried silicon. But, I trust that stuff, just like I trust RTV for my oil pan, transmission pan and other non-head gaskets.
Experience better living through chemistry and common sense. I'll post my findings, because I've had to go through this a few times with my 02 with almost 200k miles.
Jimmy, looking forward to a dry winter or two before she is finally retired
I disagree with the sentiments that Butyl is not a good long term solution. What kind of long term are we talking here? Will new Butyl last another 17 years before failing? I think so. Most of us will have moved on many many years before then.
link: https://youtu.be/ZkAUSxJxBG8
I qualified that with being in the heat and humidity of the southern state. Today, I used the black GE Silicone II. I cleaned off the old butyl very clean by using fingernail polish remover , non acetone. I cleaned off the moisture barrier as well as I could, but there was still some butyl embedded in the material that was just not able to be lifted. I really was overly generous with the use of the black silicone, I used what seems to be about half of the caulking gun tube. I'm not sure how the silicone is going to react with the butyl, but I will report back after weathering some heavy rains over the season. I was very impressed by the way that the silicone stood up on the sheet metal, I'm convinced that every place is sealed and then some. Jimmy, in Houston
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'03 540i-6
153k mi; bought April ‘07 w/38k mi
Silv/Blk, CWP, UUC SSK w/DSSR, M5 diff, JBR LW FW, SPEC Stage 2 clutch, Zionsville w/2-stage fan, coolant hoses, M60 intake manifold, motor-out overhaul (powder-coated VCs, TCGs, valley pan, coolant mani, head gaskets, heads refurb, all other gaskets, seals), Beisan vanos, PS pump & hoses, AC comp, fuel pump & filter, washer hoses, 88-degree thermo, DUDMD tune, Vibrant Racing muffler, Zeck CDV, Brembo solid-disc rotors w/ Textron pads & UUC SS brake lines, Dinan springs w/Koni Yellow shocks/struts, M5 front & rear sway bars, H&R 10mm spacers & studs front & rear, Pilot Sport A/S 3s, headlight adj repair, polished headlight lenses, 6k Umnitza Xenon & AE bulbs, new OEM M-Sport bumpers, gauge rings, permanent seat-twist repair to front seats, ZHP shift knob, M5 headliner kit (reinforced A-pillar clips), Schmiedmann pedals, MID & cluster pixel repair, Bavsound Stage 1 speaker upgrade & dedicated amp w/DSP subwoofers, retrofitted cupholder
So did anybody make a DIY sticky about this issue?
Still dry as a bone into spring break
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After repairing my vapor barriers about 4 times over 15 years, I realized that there is no such thing as "ideal" adhesive. The door is just simply poorly designed for water drainage. The Butyl loses its adhesiveness once water continues to hit it and body flex makes it vibrate loose.
The permanent solution for me was to buy actual 6mil plastic sheeting / vapor barrier from Home Depot, trim the plastic to be the size of the cutouts in the door, and attach them from the outside (window side) inside the door rather than against the the side that is facing the passenger compartment. For the door pull cable, i had to use some heat shrink around it to seal the connection it made through the plastic sheeting. Water wicking off the cable is the culprit for the bulk of the water coming in... other things are the outside weather seal against the door, and also the door panel clip towards the middle-front of the rear doors.
Its been dry every since i did this months ago.
Last edited by Manny G.; 03-08-2019 at 02:02 PM.
Stancing is for drivers trapped in an abusive relationship of their own lives.
Most people's leak issues are due to not properly cleaning off the old sealant before applying the new.
1) Clean off ALL of the old butyl, as you scrape it off make a ball with it and roll it/press it against the stuff that's still stuck to get it off easier.
2) Once everything is clean, wipe with rubbing alcohol to remove any remaining oil/grease/etc and let dry.
3) Stick 3M Window Weld ribbon sealer where the sealant used to be on the door.
4) Heat up the window weld with a hair dryer or heat gun. (or just do this outside in direct sunlight)
5) Reinstall the vapor barrier and go around the edge pressing it into the sealant.
^+1!!!
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I hvae used GE Silicone II on both rear doors with perfect success years later here in the NW. The butyl tape I treid first time around did not last or seal properly - with heat gun and all. Its hidden from sight - hit with copious amounts of silicon.
Cheers,
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