How would you say you drive?

[camiloteram]

If somebody describe your driving style what would they say?

Since July 3rd last year I have not driven anything worth talking about. I used to have an e36 325 that was reaching a good 190 rwhp and I was one with that car. I knew it's limits. Yeah I crashed the car, and I almost died but atleast there is one thing that I've thankful for, it wasn't a misjudgment in my driving ability. I caught the wrong time of a yellow light, made the wrong decision, or took to long to make a decision, and somebody made their left turn coming from the opposite lane hitting me head on at 50mph.

And that was that. I fear lights. I fear for other people who may not be called spirited drivers that make the same mistake I did. I fear my accident was a series of events and circumstances leading to it that could not have been avoided. At the wrong time and the wrong place. But I learned from it.

But now that I'm jumping back into e36s, I have a chance to remake myself as a Driver. I still drive cars ever so often and I still have my need for speed. I still have my intuition, I still have my obsession with precision, I still have my respect and my love for being on the edge. So to end my little talk about nothing, I ask- What do feel when you drive, what to you seek, what do you consider your qualities are?

[GotBHP?]

WTF? Sounds like you need to take a car control clinic, then head out to the track so you don't kill anyone out there on the streets. A safe and controlled environment is where you should be learning things, not from 50mph head on collisions.

[camiloteram]

WTF? Sounds like you need to take a car control clinic, then head out to the track so you don't kill anyone out there on the streets. A safe and controlled environment is where you should be learning things, not from 50mph head on collisions.

Yeah the other person learned something through. We both went through a yellow/red light. It's something that just happened.

[MARKSS]

Track School FTW!!! I am looking forward to may 31st for the RMCBMWCCA annual Late Spring Driving School, and of course the car control clinic that preceeds it on the 18th. You definately learn what skills you DON't have. This will be my third school so I consider myself a better driver than most people on the road.

BTW my driving style is "offensive" to offset all of the "defensive" drivers out there. But I always stay within the limits set by the law.

[M III Pilot]

First off, glad you're OK.

Secondly, trying not to come off as an armchair QB and I know this isn't your intent with this thread, but from what you've described it was a misjudgment in your driving.
Sure you didn't lose control and slide off, spin, etc... but it could most likely have been avoided, unless that other driver ran their light.

I had someone pull out infront of me, they had a stop sign, and there wasn't a thing I could do, not enough time or space so I know what if feels like.

Moving on.

I normally feel contempt and frustration which I usually successfully turn to laughter. I do this because having gone through a defensive driving course when work sent me to class for my Class A CDL, I'm almost paranoid about what those other drivers are going to do to cause me problems.

It's strange how mellow you can become when you realize that people will litteraly risk death to save themselves two seconds, and if you don't have that in mind when driving a 80,000 lb truck that doesn't stop on a dime and will crush whatever you hit into itty bitty little pieces....well it's just irresponsible.

So to get that need for speed taken care of I hit the track.
It's safer, and most people there actually know what they're doing.

Oh, and when commuting I try not to sweat it if I get there 1 minute later than I would have if I'd not let the other driver in, blocked that lane, tailgated that minivan to get them to let me by, etc...


BTW my driving style is "offensive" to offset all of the "defensive" drivers out there. But I always stay within the limits set by the law.
I think you've missunderstood what defensive driving is all about.

Defensive driving is being proactive in keeping yourself out of trouble, not just driving slow.

[Dispatch20]

I used to have an e36 325 that was reaching a good 190 rwhp and I was one with that car. I knew it's limits. Yeah I crashed the car, and I almost died but atleast there is one thing that I've thankful for, it wasn't a misjudgment in my driving ability. I caught the wrong time of a yellow light, made the wrong decision, or took to long to make a decision, and somebody made their left turn coming from the opposite lane hitting me head on at 50mph.



Most young people do think that they are great drivers (you sound young). I thought that I was good and "at one" with the car until I started driving competitively at legal events. I then realized I sucked and needed years of practice. You don't become a good driver by driving on streets.

The point is, both your driving ability and judgement (same thing really) are questionable. You should have seen that person turning accross your lane from a mile away. It takes a good driver to avoid accidents.

[Crosswire]

Well, I like to make a game of beating the everliving shit out of my car (in a good way of course)...hopefully that paints a picture ;)


Anyways, I like to think I'm a good driver, but I also know there are many better than myself. I just like to think ahead and occasionally push some limits. I admittedly could be safer, but couldn't we all...

[MARKSS]

I think you've missunderstood what defensive driving is all about.

Defensive driving is being proactive in keeping yourself out of trouble, not just driving slow.

You and I must have taken different "Defensive Driving" courses. I have taken the same course twice, and in a nut shell the concept is "drive slow, drive safe."

[qfactor35]

I think MIII pilot nailed it. I have learned as I have got older to be more patient and observative. I consider myself a pretty good driver now but, I know I was not when I was younger. I would like to take a defensive driving course or some sort of driving course but, I don't agree that because someone has taken these courses that it necessarily makes them a better driver.

[Jahseso]

carefully. I hear ghost stories on Bimmerforums that teach me to not drive like a jackass. I'm still learning to drive the M. It's a LOT easier to lose the back end than it was in the mustang. . . And no, I didn't TRY to drift. I just had people in the back. Intense. I love my M... and so should you.

[M III Pilot]

You and I must have taken different "Defensive Driving" courses. I have taken the same course twice, and in a nut shell the concept is "drive slow, drive safe."
Sound like it yeah. What kind of defensive driving course?
Speeding ticket reduction type?

This is the one I went through: http://www.smith-system.com/

Hands-on, on-the-road training. There's just no substitute.
Behind-the-wheel driver training is the foundation of the Smith System Driver Improvement Institute.
Smith System is the leader in professional driver training. Our trademarked Five Keys of Space Cushion Driving focuses on the core driving fundamentals of space, visibility and time. This real world training is supplemented through our extensive video and DVD library, web-based education and SmithSAFE fleet monitoring program.
Smith System's results-oriented driver safety training and education has reduced collisions and increased profits for fleets at over half of today's Fortune 500 companies. Choose any of the links above to learn more.

The Five Keys

AIM HIGH IN STEERING
GET THE BIG PICTURE
KEEP YOUR EYES MOVING
LEAVE YOURSELF AN OUT
MAKE SURE THEY SEE YOU

Alot of those concepts are tought at DE's too.

[siggyfreud]

I drive like its stolen because more often than not it is . . .


Glad you're okay.

[The Letter M]

IMHO, there are 2 kinds of drivers.

Ones that have had some driver training & have learned about vision, how to control & respect the dynamics of the car, and ones who are dangerously under-educated, but think they are doing well.

To the OP, a red flag pops up when I read that you do not believe you made "misjudgement in your driving ablity", and again when you claim you were "one with the car".

Apparently you don't realize that your driving ability includes the ability to make good judgements very quickly.

You are human & as such, you can make mistakes, but please dont try to justify your mistakes by blaming this on anything other than the fact that you were not able to avoid this collision.

Almost every accident is avoidable, and all you can do is prepare yourself to automatically react to an emergency situation.

Most people can't do this by themselves, so they get some training.

Driver training isn't just about track days, it's about developing a state of readiness for emergencies, and having the ability to fall back on a solid knowledge of how to control the car and avoid crashes.

Everything from seating position, how you hold the wheel, mirror adjustment, vision, & understanding the importance of vehicle balance, are all important things to help us become better drivers, and most members of the driving public get these wrong for their entire driving lives.

Well trained drivers still make mistakes, but they know enough about what they did wrong to admit they didn't do a good job of some aspect of driving when they crash.

Glad you survived, now get some skills & a more realistic attitude & you'll do well.

To answer your question, how would I say I drive?

The answer is, to the best of my abilities, and I drive hard sometimes & not others, but I hope I have developed a good sense of risk assessment to keep me out of trouble.

I also don't drive around like an idiot on the street, because after doing some track days & HPDE's, there's little point & too many other risks.

I'll leave that to the driving noobs.

[M III Pilot]

^^^ Well said.

[the Scholar]

IMHO, there are 2 kinds of drivers.

Ones that have had some driver training & have learned about vision, how to control & respect the dynamics of the car, and ones who are dangerously under-educated, but think they are doing well.

To the OP, a red flag pops up when I read that you do not believe you made "misjudgement in your driving ablity", and again when you claim you were "one with the car".

Apparently you don't realize that your driving ability includes the ability to make good judgements very quickly.

You are human & as such, you can make mistakes, but please dont try to justify your mistakes by blaming this on anything other than the fact that you were not able to avoid this collision.

Almost every accident is avoidable, and all you can do is prepare yourself to automatically react to an emergency situation.

Most people can't do this by themselves, so they get some training.

Driver training isn't just about track days, it's about developing a state of readiness for emergencies, and having the ability to fall back on a solid knowledge of how to control the car and avoid crashes.

Everything from seating position, how you hold the wheel, mirror adjustment, vision, & understanding the importance of vehicle balance, are all important things to help us become better drivers, and most members of the driving public get these wrong for their entire driving lives.

Well trained drivers still make mistakes, but they know enough about what they did wrong to admit they didn't do a good job of some aspect of driving when they crash.

Glad you survived, now get some skills & a more realistic attitude & you'll do well.

To answer your question, how would I say I drive?

The answer is, to the best of my abilities, and I drive hard sometimes & not others, but I hope I have developed a good sense of risk assessment to keep me out of trouble.

I also don't drive around like an idiot on the street, because after doing some track days & HPDE's, there's little point & too many other risks.

I'll leave that to the driving noobs.

Very well said indeed. I agree with everything you said.

Driving is something to be very humble about and most people just aren't.

My driving style is just what was described above, sometimes hard, other times not at all. I choose to do drive very hard on a track or through an autoX course.

With my M, I am very, very cautious while driving it. I have had it for 4 weeks now and I am still learning how to drive it without spinning it out. I am very glad that the car has ASC on it as I have almost wadded it up doing normal things like getting on the expressway on a damp day while going around a corner. I look back over my blind spot to make sure its clear to merge and roll on the throttle in 2nd gear and I feel the car shudder and jerk to one side and as I look back at the road, I see the car righting itself after the rear end started to step out on me.

Driving is all about respect and never thinking you are one with the car. Its always a continuous learning process, no matter how long you have had your car.

[MARKSS]

Sound like it yeah. What kind of defensive driving course?
Speeding ticket reduction type?

This is the one I went through: http://www.smith-system.com/


The first time was to try to lower my insurance (being an 18yr old male out on his own can be hard). The second time was for a ticket. Of course that was 8 years ago.

I guess "offensive" driver was probably the wrong word to use. I guess I am more of an assertive driver who is very cognisant of the traffic around me at all times. I notice things that a lot of people don't, which allows me to move more smoothly through traffic. This comes naturally to some people, some people learn it, and others are just hopeless.

[GG///M3]

Side ways thru school zones at 3pm monday-friday.:stickoutt

















I KID ;).

[thejlevie]

From the description of the accident, and other comments, I'd hazard a guess that you aren't driving defensively and that you haven't yet learned to be "eyes up and out".

Driving defensively means anticipating possible events and expecting the other driver to do the wrong thing. That carries over to stoplights in that as you approach one you should expect it to change and well before reaching the light you've picked a "go, no go" point on the road. At urban speeds in a BMW that point is probably 50' from the light. Basically the point that you can stop the car without locking up the tires. That point needs modification based on speed and how close the car behind you is and what it is. If an 18 wheeler is tailgating, you are going to need a lot more room to stop (to avoid being run over) or you are going to have to run the yellow. And that's where the "eyes up and out" comes in. You should always know exactly what's behind and to the side of you car (and what they are doing), as well as knowing if there's a car approaching an intersection that may become an obstacle if you have to run the yellow. On the track, we call it situational awareness. With good situational awareness you have a chance to avoid an accident.

Even when there's not a stop light involved, you need to be watching for other drivers. They may brake unexpectedly, switch lanes w/o warning, or drive through a stoplight or stop sign. You name it and they'll do it. If your total attention is on driving and maintaining good situational awareness you'll see the developing situation in time to take evasive action. And a part of that is maintaining a properly sized safety zone around your car, which at times may mean going slower than the posted limit. It also means that you don't drive in an aggressive manner, meaning faster that the traffic stream and constantly switching lanes.

The Germans have it right, "When you drive, you drive". Than means devoting 100% of your ability/attention to driving, no fiddling with the radio, no talking on the cell phone, nothing but driving. Spend enough time on the track to move into an Advanced group (6-8 DE weekends is about right) and you'll gain a whole new perspective on what driving is all about. Or better yet, earn a competition license and do a bit of racing...

[dshilkit]

on the street, i drive at high alert. a few years on a motorcycle where everyday was an adventure in defying death (and not because i was riding like i stole it) combined with a few more years of doing DE's, i just find myself always looking out for that guy who's not looking out for me.

i save my high-speed hi-jinx for the track and do everything to stay out of harm's way on the street.

[deadlift]

It's strange how mellow you can become when you realize that people will litteraly risk death to save themselves two seconds,

Amen to that one, it is grown adults that do this stuff alot too. You would think they would learn.

[Nik1703]

i dont know what you guys are talking about. so many of you are saying you have to "try so hard" not to spin the wheels out and lose control. Ive been driving my M3 since October and i've spun them ONCE with bald tires. I NEVER have the ASC on, it's always off. By no means do i baby it, but so long as you dont drive like a retard.. you'll be fine. It's NOT hard, you dont need a driving course to drive an E36 M3 and if you think ONE day of a driving course is going to make any difference, you're wrong. I've been training Brazilian jiu-jitsu for 5 years... do you think i still practice the same techniques i did on my first class? you bet your sweet ass i do. It takes years and years of practice if you want to benefit from anything in those driving classes/courses. Just drive your car like a civilized person with proper discretion and there should be NO problems.

[GotBHP?]

i dont know what you guys are talking about. so many of you are saying you have to "try so hard" not to spin the wheels out and lose control. Ive been driving my M3 since October and i've spun them ONCE with bald tires. I NEVER have the ASC on, it's always off. By no means do i baby it, but so long as you dont drive like a retard.. you'll be fine. It's NOT hard, you dont need a driving course to drive an E36 M3 and if you think ONE day of a driving course is going to make any difference, you're wrong. I've been training Brazilian jiu-jitsu for 5 years... do you think i still practice the same techniques i did on my first class? you bet your sweet ass i do. It takes years and years of practice if you want to benefit from anything in those driving classes/courses. Just drive your car like a civilized person with proper discretion and there should be NO problems.

Spoken like someone who truly has no idea what they are talking about, at all. A 1 day course with a good instructor will make all the difference in the world, and you will instantly realize how poor a driver you probably were before. Yes, years of practice would be great, but not necessary to learn.

IMO, it should be much harder to get a license in the US, there would be far fewer cocky teenagers and oblivious idiots out there.

[M III Pilot]

The first time was to try to lower my insurance (being an 18yr old male out on his own can be hard). The second time was for a ticket. Of course that was 8 years ago.

I guess "offensive" driver was probably the wrong word to use. I guess I am more of an assertive driver who is very cognisant of the traffic around me at all times. I notice things that a lot of people don't, which allows me to move more smoothly through traffic. This comes naturally to some people, some people learn it, and others are just hopeless.
Aight cool, but what you're describing there are parts of what real defensive driving is all about.

Somebody telling you to drive slow and be aware is about as useful as when coach said, "Steer into the slide." during HS driver's ed.
So I definetly understand where you're thoughts on "defensive driving" came from if that's been your exposure to it.


IMO, it should be much harder to get a license in the US, there would be far fewer cocky teenagers and oblivious idiots out there.
I definetly agree and would like to see skid pad (both dry & wet), car control (both low & high speed), defensive driving techniques, and basic automobile maintenance understanding (IE how oil works & where it goes, how brakes work & when they need replacement, how tires work & when they need replacement, etc...) added to the licensing requirements.

[MARKSS]

Spoken like someone who truly has no idea what they are talking about, at all. A 1 day course with a good instructor will make all the difference in the world, and you will instantly realize how poor a driver you probably were before. Yes, years of practice would be great, but not necessary to learn.

IMO, it should be much harder to get a license in the US, there would be far fewer cocky teenagers and oblivious idiots out there.

+1,000,000,000...... especially on getting a license. This is why I hate letting my wife drive. If it were up to me she wouldn't have a drivers license, and she isn't even that bad a driver.

[FinalBoss]

Sounds like a nasty wreck but IMO it could have been avoided.

I've been riding motorcycles almost as long as I've been driving cars I have to be on a lookout for other drivers trying to kill me when I'm riding. This carries over to any vehicle I'm in, bike or car. I base my decisions and plot my next moves on what other drivers are doing, not what I feel like. As for actual car control and driving at the limit I don't think I'm very good so I keep that at a minimum. I'll try to hit up the race tracks this summer with my bike when it's dry and with my car when it's wet and hopefully improve.

[black_box]

i dont know what you guys are talking about. so many of you are saying you have to "try so hard" not to spin the wheels out and lose control. Ive been driving my M3 since October and i've spun them ONCE with bald tires. I NEVER have the ASC on, it's always off. By no means do i baby it, but so long as you dont drive like a retard.. you'll be fine. It's NOT hard, you dont need a driving course to drive an E36 M3 and if you think ONE day of a driving course is going to make any difference, you're wrong... It takes years and years of practice if you want to benefit from anything in those driving classes/courses. Just drive your car like a civilized person with proper discretion and there should be NO problems.
i agree that its not hard to avoid spinning the tires, but it does take a little practice to be smooth with the power delivery and gear changes, depending on what car you're coming from.

however, i think a one day class can make a difference, especially if you're not used to sliding a RWD car around. that was the case for me when I got my m3, and the car control clinics i took were invaluable. I also think it takes a lot less than driving like a retard to get into trouble in this car. a simple mistake in the rain can loop the car if you're not prepared for it. years of driving schools to reap the benefits? definitely not. also, if you're driving your car like a civilized person, you may as well leave the ASC on.

wet/dry skidpads and avoidance maneuvers for license requirements would be great.