camkit e36 m3 vs. bone stock e46 m3.

[Serious]

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=204324

Im actually surprised the e36 didn't hang better then that, but it humiliates the stock m3 so its definitely running strong.

[99MPower]

interesting

[jworms]

definitely not the outcome i expected, or experienced with my non-cammed car... but then again, i have to remember who the thread creator is ;)

[Serious]

definitely not the outcome i expected, or experienced with my non-cammed car... but then again, i have to remember who the thread creator is ;)

well i had nothing to do with the thread on m3 forum, just posted it here.

Just goes to show how much weight reduction helps especially at low speeds (under 100).

honestly I expected them to be closer.

[jworms]

well i had nothing to do with the thread on m3 forum, just posted it here.

Just goes to show how much weight reduction helps especially at low speeds (under 100).

honestly I expected them to be closer.

i was closer to a stock e46 M3 when i had my MAF plugged in (less power + misfiring) and had full weight. hell, that biased run you used to like to post with me and the e46 M3 at high speeds (100mph+) was closer than that.

but hey, anything can happen i guess.

EDIT:
here's the thread where i raced a stock e46 M3 SMG with the misfiring issue i mentioned above, bent exhaust valves, no track pipe, and no weight reduction (except for spare): http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=525521
the E46 doesn't pull ahead until ~90mph and even then the pull is maybe just as strong as the pull on that fully bolt-on e36 in the video. seems like there might be some missing information from that thread on m3forum....maybe not :dunno
i'd definitely like to see dyno graphs and weight specs from both cars

[Serious]

i was closer to a stock e46 M3 when i had my MAF plugged in (less power + misfiring) and had full weight. hell, that biased run you used to like to post with me and the e46 M3 at high speeds (100mph+) was closer than that.

but hey, anything can happen i guess.

honestly i agree with you, i think it should be closer... but im torn since the cammed e36 just destroys the stock m3 like its a civic, so it has to be running good.

they are going pretty fast 120+ in alot of the runs so it really helps the more powerful e46. I dunno, i wish their was dyno's on both cars.

since were all posting videos and I can feel this is going to turn into another e46 vs. e36 war...

my old e36 3.2 obd1 238whp/228 vs. my e46 m3 with only muffler 278whp/237rwtq...15mph to ~110mph ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-5CoBvnExU

[jworms]

i think i'm going to go to bed now. i know this thread will be entertaining to read tomorrow at work. i guess i'll dig up my collection of videos/timeslips to post too...deja vu much? :rolleyes

i'll end tonight on this note:

at the bare minimum i expect an E36 M3 modded like the one in the video to put down AT LEAST ~245rwhp (that's really on the low end IMO, i mean i'm pretty much doing that without cams and a bunch of other things on my car) and the E36 will weigh around 250lbs less than a stock E46 M3. let's say this E46 M3 is particularly strong and pulls 280rwhp. let's also assume the 170lbs cameraman is in the E46 M3 and that every 100lbs is roughly equal to 10rwhp.


so we have the 245rwhp E36 M3 with (170lbs camerman + 250lbs weight difference) is 420lbs less weight which (according to our weight/hp assumption above) is equal to ~42rwhp. 245 + 42 = 287 'rwhp'

the numbers just don't add up for this race.

[radialaced]

Hmmm, maybe the e36 software isn't taking full advantage of the cams? Maybe the e36 is only running 87 octane? hehe just kidding.

Seriously, the e36 doesn't sound like it's reving up to redline fast enough, is there something wrong with it?

I DO like the sound of the e36 better than the e46 though.

[bennyfizzle]

E36s are slower than E46's...

it's not a mystery people.

[328iJunkie]

Yeah somethings def up. That looks similar to a race ive done with an E46 and im not cammed.

[radialaced]

E36s are slower than E46's...

it's not a mystery people.

Yeah you right. but i was expecting a faster reving top end from the cammed e36.

Do you think the e36 didn't have an M50 intake?

[radialaced]

Yeah you right. but i was expecting a faster reving top end from the cammed e36.

Do you think the e36 didn't have an M50 intake?

nevermind....i just read this:


Stig's (power) mod list:
M50 intake manifold
Schrick cams
Conforti Intake
Conforti (shark) software
540 MAF sensors
upgraded fuel injectors
Evosport ceramic headers

[GG///M3]

i think i'm going to go to bed now. i know this thread will be entertaining to read tomorrow at work. i guess i'll dig up my collection of videos/timeslips to post too...deja vu much? :rolleyes

i'll end tonight on this note:

at the bare minimum i expect an E36 M3 modded like the one in the video to put down AT LEAST ~245rwhp (that's really on the low end IMO, i mean i'm pretty much doing that without cams and a bunch of other things on my car) and the E36 will weigh around 250lbs less than a stock E46 M3. let's say this E46 M3 is particularly strong and pulls 280rwhp. let's also assume the 170lbs cameraman is in the E46 M3 and that every 100lbs is roughly equal to 10rwhp.


so we have the 245rwhp E36 M3 with (170lbs camerman + 250lbs weight difference) is 420lbs less weight which (according to our weight/hp assumption above) is equal to ~42rwhp. 245 + 42 = 287 'rwhp'

the numbers just don't add up for this race.

+1 I think maybe that e46 had a really strong motor, or was modded. I ran 1 in my old camm'd m3 from a 65mph to about 130mph. I had alittle more then a car lenght on the e46 m3. We shut it down because we were about to hit traffic. The e46 m3 did have another person in the car (a girl). I'm pretty sure once speeds got up there the e46 m3 would gain its ground back, and pass me.

[saint166]

i just watched the videos while having my morning coffee. that is not a strong running e36 for all the mods he has . after seeing what jworms did in the 8th mile he would do much better against an e46 m3 and he isnt even cammed up . from radialaced posted the guy is only running conforti shark software so he isnt taking full advantage of his cams . mchaser has raced e46 m3's with his previous M and held his own . i dont think anyone with an e36 m3 is saying its faster than the e46 M but with weight reduction and the right mods staying n/a of course an e36 M can beat the e46 M

[Serious]

i just watched the videos while having my morning coffee. that is not a strong running e36 for all the mods he has . after seeing what jworms did in the 8th mile he would do much better against an e46 m3 and he isnt even cammed up . from radialaced posted the guy is only running conforti shark software so he isnt taking full advantage of his cams . mchaser has raced e46 m3's with his previous M and held his own . i dont think anyone with an e36 m3 is saying its faster than the e46 M but with weight reduction and the right mods staying n/a of course an e36 M can beat the e46 M

im just going to point this out... 1/8 miles and to an extent 1/4 mile et's aren't a good indicator how fast cars are from a roll.

lighter cars with less HP have a huge advantage from a dig over heavier more powerful ones (especially e46 m3's which arent really fast until you get and keep them in the powerband.)

Trap speeds are pretty good indicators of HP and freeway speed, and I have never ever seen an n/a close to stock weight (within 400lbs of stock) e36 m3 trap close to 107 which is what an e46 traps on a good run.

[jworms]

im just going to point this out... 1/8 miles and to an extent 1/4 mile et's aren't a good indicator how fast cars are from a roll.

lighter cars with less HP have a huge advantage from a dig over heavier more powerful ones (especially e46 m3's which arent really fast until you get and keep them in the powerband.)

Trap speeds are pretty good indicators of HP and freeway speed, and I have never ever seen an n/a close to stock weight (within 400lbs of stock) e36 m3 trap close to 107 which is what an e46 traps on a good run.

my car is within 400lbs of stock weight (2880lbs) and it trapped on the very high end of what most e46 M3s (i only found 1 stock one that could on dragtimes.com so who knows the validity of it) trap in the 1/8th mile - 84.31mph (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=969057 ). hell, some modded E46 M3s don't trap that high in the 1/8th. then you have to remember that my run was at a 750ft above sea level track with a slight headwind. i think given that information we could speculate that my car would trap between 106-108mph in the 1/4 mile at a good sea level track with good conditions. Serious: have you been to a 1/4 mile track before with your E46? any timeslips?

you always post up your E36 s52 swap vs the E46 M3. do you think your S52 swap car would beat my car? what did it run in the 1/4 mile again? at which track?

[jworms]

E36s are slower than E46's...

it's not a mystery people.

benny, i'd be willing to bet that even your E36 M3 would hold up just as well (if not better) than the E36 M3 in that video Serious posted.

in fact, it looks like these guys are in PA which isn't too far from you. i say you post up a friendly challenge in that thread and show 'em what's up.

[Eric98Sedan]

Here's my input. Granted, I've only driven 3 E46 M's (two 6spds, 1 smg), all stock, and I own a Dinan Stg3 E36 M3/4/5.

Because of my very limited experience with the newer, faster car, I cannot say with much authority how fast/slow the newer car is, HOWEVER, I honestly feel that a strong, bolt-on (non-cammed) E36 M3 is 'nearly' as fast as an average E46 M3 at most speeds under 100mph.

The E36 M3 has WAY more 'punch' below 5k rpms, that's for sure. Now, the E46 M3 is probably faster in the real world, but it does not feel that way and certianly lacks that midrange 'punch' of the E36.

To be honest, I was 'this' close to pulling the trigger on an E46 SMG but decided to get a second E36 M3 because I was a bit let down by the newer motor.

[M3zie]

The E36 is running the stock mid-section and cat-back, FWIW.

[mitchelrl]

Ryan,

Want to go run em? 15 - 100? =P

[mitchelrl]

Stig's car is quick, but it's not nearly as quick as it should be.

[mitchelrl]

PS, Put a damn suspension on your car already =P

[libravcs]

Oh, whats this? Another internet thread about how a modified car is faster than a non-modified car? Oh wait..it's not EVEN as fast as the stock car. Yep. the usual.

[mitchelrl]

Oh, whats this? Another internet thread about how a modified car is faster than a non-modified car? Oh wait..it's not EVEN as fast as the stock car. Yep. the usual.

It's called benchmarking.

[jworms]

It's called benchmarking.
+1


Oh, whats this? Another internet thread about how a modified car is faster than a non-modified car? Oh wait..it's not EVEN as fast as the stock car. Yep. the usual.
i just noticed your location mentions LA. does that mean Los Angeles? if so i'm down for a friendly run next time you're in the area. i'd be happy to show you what a modded E36 M3 is capable of :)

[rmani]

great video thanks for linking it. outcome isn't all that surprising stock for stock an e46 M3 absolutely wallops an e36 M3. The extra 40-50hp that comes from cams and other bolt ons can only help to minimize the damage.

[mitchelrl]

I'm trying to get the OP to run my wittle ol' M3...he lives like 5 minutes away, lol.

[E36 328is]

I'm trying to get the OP to run my wittle ol' M3...he lives like 5 minutes away, lol.

It would be interesting to see what the results are with the 3.73 LSD. Did you buy it from diffsonline directly or used?

[jworms]

honestly i agree with you, i think it should be closer... but im torn since the cammed e36 just destroys the stock m3 like its a civic, so it has to be running good.

they are going pretty fast 120+ in alot of the runs so it really helps the more powerful e46. I dunno, i wish their was dyno's on both cars.

since were all posting videos and I can feel this is going to turn into another e46 vs. e36 war...

my old e36 3.2 obd1 238whp/228 vs. my e46 m3 with only muffler 278whp/237rwtq...15mph to ~110mph ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-5CoBvnExU
so i found something that inspired a bit of curiosity about your previous e36. was it a convertible by any chance? it's hard to tell in the video.

[mitchelrl]

It would be interesting to see what the results are with the 3.73 LSD. Did you buy it from diffsonline directly or used?

I bought it from freediffsonline.com ;)

[E36 328is]

Let me know when they have an extra!

[GG///M3]

I bought it from freediffsonline.com ;)

It must feel like you add a blower to it with that diff.:eek:

[Tony Soprano]

that E46 isnt stock.

[libravcs]

In all of the videos, the end result was the same: E46 beating a E36. Period. End of story. E36 owners can make themselves feel better by saying "it was only by a bumper" if they wish, but in racing there are two positions: Winner and Loser. "If you aint first, you last". (c)RickyBobby

[jworms]

In all of the videos, the end result was the same: E46 beating a E36. Period. End of story. E36 owners can make themselves feel better by saying "it was only by a bumper" if they wish, but in racing there are two positions: Winner and Loser. "If you aint first, you last". (c)RickyBobby
here's a timeslip from a stock E46 M3 at the crappy local drag strip at 1100ft elevation (E46 M3 on left side):

http://raptor.nauticaltech.com/~jworms/m3/in.car.times.and.dyno/strip/07.11.2007-calispeedway/small/DSC01685.jpg

here's what i pulled on the same day (E36 M3 on left side):
http://raptor.nauticaltech.com/~jworms/m3/in.car.times.and.dyno/strip/07.11.2007-calispeedway/small/me.calispeedway.timeslip.jpg

notice how my car traps a full 1mph faster than the E46 M3. that means that at the end of that run my non-cammed, basic bolt-on E36 M3 is moving faster than the E46 M3. Also notice that the E46 M3 got a 2 tenths better 60 ft than me...if i had the same 60 ft time as the E46 M3 my ET would have been lower than it. that means that the E36 M3 would have beat the E46 M3 by at least 2 tenths.

even with the information i posted above i assume you will either only focus on the ETs, say the evidence is irrelevant because the results are lower than most (i already mentioned the track is crappy and at elevation), or completely discount this as evidence at all.

my offer still stands: if you are in Los Angeles i'd be more than happy to show you what an E36 M3 with just basic bolt-ons can do to an E46 M3. we would even get it on video so it would be easier for you to see. you know...instead of actually interpreting the information provided to you in this thread.

EDIT: libravcs i just noticed you are relatively new to the forum and, although it looks like you've made quite the reputation here already, you don't have much experience in the kills section. so you probably don't know how many threads i have been involved in that either started or ended on this same topic. funny enough Serious knows this very well at this point which makes me question his motives for creating this thread, but that's a whole other issue. either way, i do have a lot more info on this topic that i can provide if you are interested in continuing this discussion in the fashion that you are...though, it might be wise to explore my previous threads/posts in the kills section regarding E46 M3s beforehand so that you are better prepared.

[DakarE36]

here's a timeslip from a stock E46 M3 at the crappy local drag strip at 1100ft elevation (E46 M3 on left side):



here's what i pulled on the same day (E36 M3 on left side):

notice how my car traps a full 1mph faster than the E46 M3. that means that at the end of that run my non-cammed, basic bolt-on E36 M3 is moving faster than the E46 M3. Also notice that the E46 M3 got a 2 tenths better 60 ft than me...if i had the same 60 ft time as the E46 M3 my ET would have been lower than it. that means that the E36 M3 would have beat the E46 M3 by at least 2 tenths.

even with the information i posted above i assume you will either only focus on the ETs, say the evidence is irrelevant because the results are lower than most (i already mentioned the track is crappy and at elevation), or completely discount this as evidence at all.

my offer still stands: if you are in Los Angeles i'd be more than happy to show you what an E36 M3 with just basic bolt-ons can do to an E46 M3. we would even get it on video so it would be easier for you to see. you know...instead of actually interpreting the information provided to you in this thread.

EDIT: libravcs i just noticed you are relatively new to the forum and, although it looks like you've made quite the reputation here already, you don't have much experience in the kills section. so you probably don't know how many threads i have been involved in that either started or ended on this same topic. funny enough Serious knows this very well at this point which makes me question his motives for creating this thread, but that's a whole other issue. either way, i do have a lot more info on this topic that i can provide if you are interested in continuing this discussion in the fashion that you are...though, it might be wise to explore my previous threads/posts in the kills section regarding E46 M3s beforehand so that you are better prepared.

You're one of the most obnoxious people I've ever seen on the forums. The E46 timeslip you posted was a sorry ass driver. I'm tired of you running your mouth about how powerful your "unplugged hfm" car is especially when your dyno #'s aren't anything special. Why not quit arguing on here and post a NEW video with an E46 M3 owner on the forums. There are plenty in your area so there shouldn't be any excuses.

In the end, it's all about the driver. I've personally kept up with an E46 M3 SMG in a stock E36 M3 on the freeway but you won't find me posting a kill story simply because it was the driver I beat.

Serious already posted about your 1/8th mile times and how worthless and inapplicable they are to this conversation regarding 40-60mph freeway roll-ons between modded E36's and stock E46's. I echo his same thoughts.

p.s. the reason for your f*cked up AFR's with the MAF plugged in is your sorry ass aftermarket tune. Period. Quit being so low-rent and fix it. Although it doesn't really matter. Nobody here on bf.c would dare buy your car after the way you mistreat it.

[Serious]

so i found something that inspired a bit of curiosity about your previous e36. was it a convertible by any chance? it's hard to tell in the video.

yes it is a convertible, but since its a 94 325 it doesnt have the full power softtop which as everyone knows is really heavy. the semi power top car is alot lighter and is maybe 100-150lbs heavier then a coupe m3.

ok 94 235 convertible curb weight: 3351 lbs. so ~130lbs.

But whats the point in arguing... we all know 240 odd whp with stock weight isnt enough to beat an e46 m3. you have to have 240+ and a huge chunk of weight reduction to close the gap.

We have already raced Mitchel, i dont really see the point of running again considering the current rainy weather.

I still dont understand the obsession with beating a stock e46 m3, these cars are still pretty slow stock.

[HBpredhunter]

sunbelts cams are far better than the shricks. along with headwork, will outpower s54 engines, at lower rpms.

the reason people want to smoke a e46 is for the simple reason that they get a badass motor, from the factory, and the e36 has to be built in order to make similiar or better power. but still, the engine wont breath at super high rpms like the s54. but thats ok, just shift gears :)

[jworms]

You're one of the most obnoxious people I've ever seen on the forums. The E46 timeslip you posted was a sorry ass driver. I'm tired of you running your mouth about how powerful your "unplugged hfm" car is especially when your dyno #'s aren't anything special. Why not quit arguing on here and post a NEW video with an E46 M3 owner on the forums. There are plenty in your area so there shouldn't be any excuses.

In the end, it's all about the driver. I've personally kept up with an E46 M3 SMG in a stock E36 M3 on the freeway but you won't find me posting a kill story simply because it was the driver I beat.

Serious already posted about your 1/8th mile times and how worthless and inapplicable they are to this conversation regarding 40-60mph freeway roll-ons between modded E36's and stock E46's. I echo his same thoughts.
wow, lots of false information in your reply. here we go...

the E46 timeslip i posted was not from a 'sorry ass driver' and he IS a member on this forum. i guess by your logic a good driver is anyone who is a member on this forum, eh? for what it's worth, i've seen quite a few members on here who can't drive their car anywhere close to their max potential. in my opinion, the driver of that E46 M3 happens to be a pretty damn good driver and has one of the fastest modded E39 M5s i have ever seen go. i also have 1/4 mile information from a modded/weight reduced E46 M3 SMG driven by another member on here at the same track. i only trapped 1mph less than it and that was when i had bent exhaust valves. that same E46 M3 trapped 108mph at a sea level 'fast' track. i can provide videos of that day if you'd like.

i don't believe i ever said my dyno numbers are anything special. hell, i may have a weak car, but it's hard to tell with variances in different dynos. i really don't understand where all this pent up animosity you have towards me stems from. i have always welcomed a friendly challenge by anyone in the E46 M3 community. i've even asked a few myself, but strangely enough, most of them decline when i ask :dunno

i've posted numerous videos and other factual evidence to support all of my claims and i always disclose all information without hiding facts. i don't think you can deny that, but if you would like to prove otherwise please go right ahead.

how are my 1/8th mile results not relevant? are you referring to this quote by Serious:

im just going to point this out... 1/8 miles and to an extent 1/4 mile et's aren't a good indicator how fast cars are from a roll.

lighter cars with less HP have a huge advantage from a dig over heavier more powerful ones (especially e46 m3's which arent really fast until you get and keep them in the powerband.)

Trap speeds are pretty good indicators of HP and freeway speed, and I have never ever seen an n/a close to stock weight (within 400lbs of stock) e36 m3 trap close to 107 which is what an e46 traps on a good run.
i completely agree that ET is not nearly as important as trap speed is for comparing two cars from a roll. that's why i specifically focused on my 1/8th mile trap speed. did you miss that part?

another thing to point out is that i would like to know how bad you can screw up driving an SMG E46 M3. as long as you shift at redline and have the shift speed at max you should not only be quick, but it should be very consistent. that's why i typically like racing SMG equipped cars so that the driver variable is mostly taken care of.

i'd love to hear more from you on how outrageous my claims are, but please, next time come with something to back it up :)

[jworms]

yes it is a convertible, but since its a 94 325 it doesnt have the full power softtop which as everyone knows is really heavy. the semi power top car is alot lighter and is maybe 100-150lbs heavier then a coupe m3.

ok 94 235 convertible curb weight: 3351 lbs. so ~130lbs.

But whats the point in arguing... we all know 240 odd whp with stock weight isnt enough to beat an e46 m3. you have to have 240+ and a huge chunk of weight reduction to close the gap.

We have already raced Mitchel, i dont really see the point of running again considering the current rainy weather.

I still dont understand the obsession with beating a stock e46 m3, these cars are still pretty slow stock.
240rwhp E36 M3 with stock weight? maybe, maybe not. in my experience it's definitely possible, but i guess i am disqualified because of my aftermarket exhaust weight reducing me by ~50lbs. either way, i hope we can both agree that a ~240rwhp E36 M3 surely wouldn't lose as bad as the car in that video did.

the point of beating a stock E46 M3 is just like mitchel mentioned. it's the next logical benchmark to shoot for. i think slow is in the eye of the beholder. compared to a 10 second, 125mph+ trapping stock z06, sure these cars are slow. but that's the point of comparing to something more in the same league.

[DakarE36]

the stock S54 has more power under the curve throughout the ENTIRE rev range when compared to the S52...shrick/sunbelt cams or not. You're only part-way through 3rd gear in the 1/8th mile. Hardly indicative of the difference in performance.

Agreed, most drivers here suck. SMG drivers can shift too early before redline loosing valuable time in the powerband.

My animosity mostly stems from how some 'toosiast can come on here and spew some diarrhea to newbies about how unplugging a MAF can seemingly increase power and improve AFR's. Your setup is somewhat unique and your tune is straight from the bulls ass. Personally, I'd have turned and ran far, far away from AA after seeing a dyno like yours.

Without ripping out ALL of the interior in a cammed E36, you won't hang with an E46 up to 100mph. Above that, the E46 is far slippier through the air and has much longer legs. It's just not gonna happen.

[GG///M3]

I think a e36 m3 with full n/a bolt-ons and say a 3.38( never mind adding a 3.46 or a 3.64 it wouldn't even be a fair race LOL) would hand it to e46 easily. People are forgetting the e46 also has a 3.64 lsd (makes up for all that wt).

[jworms]

the stock S54 has more power under the curve throughout the ENTIRE rev range when compared to the S52...shrick/sunbelt cams or not. You're only part-way through 3rd gear in the 1/8th mile. Hardly indicative of the difference in performance.
i beg to differ:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=687627
from what i can tell from those dyno graphs my car has a bit more midrange power than a relatively stock E46 M3.

there are cammed E36 M3s (schrick and even sunbelt) that have more midrange than me and way more than an E46 M3. a member by the name of ///M3///M5 comes to mind with his (former) shrick setup. i'm betting you'll find multiple stock block IP cars that pack more midrange than a stock E46 M3.

here's a few examples of pretty powerful E36 M3s that i would expect to be able to beat an E46 M3. some of these are packing quite a bit more midrange than the typical E46 M3 :
262RWHP/230RWTQ: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=602151
265RWHP/235RWTQ and 259/244RWTQ: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=509186 (post 56/57)
265RWHP: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10498504&postcount=2
275RWHP: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10860599&postcount=15


Agreed, most drivers here suck. SMG drivers can shift too early before redline loosing valuable time in the powerband.

My animosity mostly stems from how some 'toosiast can come on here and spew some diarrhea to newbies about how unplugging a MAF can seemingly increase power and improve AFR's. Your setup is somewhat unique and your tune is straight from the bulls ass. Personally, I'd have turned and ran far, far away from AA after seeing a dyno like yours.
you said it right. my setup IS unique. will unplugging your MAF gain more power? probably not and i made a point to say that in that thread, but it did for me. that's also not to say i couldn't gain even more power by getting a proper tune, but yeah you can bet anything i won't be going to AA for that tune when i get it. the main reason i'm hesitant to get a proper tune right now is because i know my car performs pretty well right now and i am afraid of messing it up with another crap tune.


Without ripping out ALL of the interior in a cammed E36, you won't hang with an E46 up to 100mph. Above that, the E46 is far slippier through the air and has much longer legs. It's just not gonna happen.
i have to disagree with this one too assuming you meant hang with an E46 M3 at speeds over 100mph. i guess it depends on what you consider 'ripping out all the interior' in an E36 is. if by ripping out the interior you mean removing the back seats and replacing both front seats with fixed-back race seats like i have done then i guess i'm disqualified. even so, i'd venture to say that a stock interior, well running, 270rwhp, cammed E36 M3 would surely stay pretty equal, if not beat, a stock E46 M3 at ANY speed. yes, weight becomes less and less of an issue as speeds increase but it's definitely still an issue and when you're making about the same power it's one advantage the other car doesn't have. there's another video i referenced earlier in this thread where me and an E46 M3 SMG race at speeds over 100mph. the E46 M3 driver was kinda shady with his racing tactics but even so my car hung with it up to where we ended at ~150mph or so.

i really don't understand the fascination with people thinking a bolt-on E36 M3 can't hang with, or beat, an E46 M3. in my experience, the numbers generally don't lie and from where i'm sitting they definitely point towards it being possible.

[Serious]

I think a e36 m3 with full n/a bolt-ons and say a 3.38( never mind adding a 3.46 or a 3.64 it wouldn't even be a fair race LOL) would hand it to e46 easily. People are forgetting the e46 also has a 3.64 lsd (makes up for all that wt).

IIRC CMT's car made ~255whp on his first tune and had a 3.64 and was very close with an 06 m3 w/ muffler. Gearing gives him an advantage at low speeds obviously, but up top they are very evenly matched.

Btw if you take into account the e46 m3's 19's the effective final drive is equivalent to an e46 m3 running a 3.38.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--IQz3X64hc&feature=related

edit: personally I wouldn't bring race motors and motors that have been custom tuned to extract every last HP into this argument, obviously an s52 built to specs and custom tuned makes alot of power, but that is getting away from the argument of a "cam kit" or "normal bolt ons" m3 keeping up with an e46. Besides, unknown to alot of people the s54 actually takes to mods very well, Ive seen stock motors take just custom tuning to nearly 300whp... Headers, off the shelf d/a software (which is much better then the off the shelf shit offered for the s52 btw), muffler, filter or intake and it pretty typical to see 300-315whp. just FYI.

[GG///M3]

IIRC CMT's car made ~255whp on his first tune and had a 3.64 and was very close with an 06 m3 w/ muffler. Gearing gives him an advantage at low speeds obviously, but up top they are very evenly matched.



Of course after say 140mph it would start to gain much lost ground, but who really wants to past 140mph on public roads?:devillook Btw I wonder at what speed that run was done at?

[Obioban]

Hello all, owner of the e46 in that video :wave

The owner of the e36 in the video is my brother and the techno violet stock e36 he raced in the 2nd video is my old car.

In my opinion, this video is both exactly what I expected and not representative of how fast his car is.

Firstly, we have neither dynoed nor weighed the cars... and nor am I till I do some sort of power mod (I'm stock except for an aftermaket panel filter in the stock airbox). Neither of the cars is stripped out in any way, and nor are we going to-- we both have cars that are comfortable AND fast, and have no desire to change that.

That said, I think that our power to weight ratios are very similar. At low speeds my car barely pulls on his; in first gear I think his car may actually be faster. The reason my car pulls in the videos is that we went to high speeds-- period. We weren't able to start in first gear because the tires would spin every time (basically because it was below freezing outside at the time of). The weight of a car matters much less at high speed and aero/hp become the name of the game. If you watch the videos you'll see that I barely pull until 3rd gear.

Another thought: 1/4 slips aren't an indication of how fast a car is; they're an indication of a drivers ability to drive the quarter mile and how prepped the car is for the 1/4 mile. And if you want to debate that, we have slips from a bone stock e46 M3 that pulled a 12.7 sec quarter mile on the M3forum. Do I think the e46 M3 is a 12 second car? No. But a driver can do that. You're also not going to see a quarter mile time out of me-- I refuse to launch my car as is necessary to do well and really have no interest in driving in a straight line repeatedly. I'd also never powershift my car. Further, the e46 in particular is not well set up for the quarter-- you have to shift at 100mph. The SMG is worse off still-- sure, shifts are hard to get wrong but the launch is laughably bad (that said, my car is a manual).

Both videos (me vs him and him vs stock e36 M3) were made for the exact same purpose-- to show, in as unbiased a way as possible, the exact effect from a given set of mods. We made everything we could the same:
tire pressure
fuel level
gear at start
time of start
camera man alternated between cars to show the effect of his weight
AC was off in both cars

As much as possible, the driver was eliminated from the equation. The only place he really figured in was shift speed, and I think you can hear that we both did that pretty quickly.

Final, parting thought: my car is on the fast end of factory cars-- I've only ever been beaten by one M3, modded or stock, and his car is the fastest SMG car on our leaderboard (of 1/4 mile times).


Oh, and I think someone said they were local. If you'd like to make a video, I'm always game so long as we do it in a safe manner (late at night when nobody is on the roads, in the dry, scout the road our first then do runs) :buttrock

[jworms]

edit: personally I wouldn't bring race motors and motors that have been custom tuned to extract every last HP into this argument, obviously an s52 built to specs and custom tuned makes alot of power, but that is getting away from the argument of a "cam kit" or "normal bolt ons" m3 keeping up with an e46. Besides, unknown to alot of people the s54 actually takes to mods very well, Ive seen stock motors take just custom tuning to nearly 300whp... Headers, off the shelf d/a software (which is much better then the off the shelf shit offered for the s52 btw), muffler, filter or intake and it pretty typical to see 300-315whp. just FYI.
i would agree if the race motors had parts in them that street cars normally don't have, but i am under the impression that the ones i listed use off the shelf parts that are common for street setups too. i'd say CMT's engine is way more built up than any of the IP ones i listed. even without the 'race setup' motors, there are still E36 M3s that make power in the 260s range which i believe is on the low end for a stock E46 M3.

of course when you add mods to the E46 M3 the story changes. i have yet to race a decently modded N/A E46 M3 so i can't really say much for that topic.

btw, i had no idea you could embed youtube videos on this site. must be that recent update to vbulletin. good stuff!

[mitchelrl]

yes it is a convertible, but since its a 94 325 it doesnt have the full power softtop which as everyone knows is really heavy. the semi power top car is alot lighter and is maybe 100-150lbs heavier then a coupe m3.

ok 94 235 convertible curb weight: 3351 lbs. so ~130lbs.

But whats the point in arguing... we all know 240 odd whp with stock weight isnt enough to beat an e46 m3. you have to have 240+ and a huge chunk of weight reduction to close the gap.

We have already raced Mitchel, i dont really see the point of running again considering the current rainy weather.

I still dont understand the obsession with beating a stock e46 m3, these cars are still pretty slow stock.

We raced when I had an intake and exhaust and going up a steep hill. It's a different scenario now man. You still have 70 HP on me and similar diff's.

It's all benchmarking and I don't see what your obsession is with the adverse of this argument. I'm no where near as modded as Stig. A few years ago you were down to run just about anything, all you do is forum hop now.

What do you have to lose?

:rolleyes

[reborn]

i think i'm going to go to bed now. i know this thread will be entertaining to read tomorrow at work. i guess i'll dig up my collection of videos/timeslips to post too...deja vu much? :rolleyes

i'll end tonight on this note:

at the bare minimum i expect an E36 M3 modded like the one in the video to put down AT LEAST ~245rwhp (that's really on the low end IMO, i mean i'm pretty much doing that without cams and a bunch of other things on my car) and the E36 will weigh around 250lbs less than a stock E46 M3. let's say this E46 M3 is particularly strong and pulls 280rwhp. let's also assume the 170lbs cameraman is in the E46 M3 and that every 100lbs is roughly equal to 10rwhp.


so we have the 245rwhp E36 M3 with (170lbs camerman + 250lbs weight difference) is 420lbs less weight which (according to our weight/hp assumption above) is equal to ~42rwhp. 245 + 42 = 287 'rwhp'

the numbers just don't add up for this race.

Cmon now, you cant just assume 100 lbs is equal to 10whp. It doesn't really work like that.

Lets look at power to weight ratios:

E46- 3415lbs/280whp=12.2
E36- 3175lbs/240whp=13.23

Also, I think it's safe to say that 240 WHP for the E36 is a generous number for a couple reasons:

1. The Schrick kit is a great, reliable kit, but there are much better performing options these days, and
2. With cams, in order to see real gains you at least need the other supporting bolt-ons like rear section exhaust, no cats, etc.


Here's my input. Granted, I've only driven 3 E46 M's (two 6spds, 1 smg), all stock, and I own a Dinan Stg3 E36 M3/4/5.

Because of my very limited experience with the newer, faster car, I cannot say with much authority how fast/slow the newer car is, HOWEVER, I honestly feel that a strong, bolt-on (non-cammed) E36 M3 is 'nearly' as fast as an average E46 M3 at most speeds under 100mph.

The E36 M3 has WAY more 'punch' below 5k rpms, that's for sure. Now, the E46 M3 is probably faster in the real world, but it does not feel that way and certianly lacks that midrange 'punch' of the E36.

To be honest, I was 'this' close to pulling the trigger on an E46 SMG but decided to get a second E36 M3 because I was a bit let down by the newer motor.

The motor isn't what let you down, it's the car's extra weight and somewhat numb feel. Those motors are completely badass as far as Im concerned.


Oh, whats this? Another internet thread about how a modified car is faster than a non-modified car? Oh wait..it's not EVEN as fast as the stock car. Yep. the usual.

Dbag much?

[Serious]

We raced when I had an intake and exhaust and going up a steep hill. It's a different scenario now man. You still have 70 HP on me and similar diff's.

It's all benchmarking and I don't see what your obsession is with the adverse of this argument. I'm no where near as modded as Stig. A few years ago you were down to run just about anything, all you do is forum hop now.

What do you have to lose?

:rolleyes

my license? or hydroplaning at 120mph in the rain?

If i wanted to street race I wouldve bought an e36 and turbo'd it.

what do i have to gain from street racing?

Now im not some saint who would never run in the right scenario... but its got to be worth it to justify the consequences. (That scenario would be running jworms for ultimate BF.c E-cred :lol)

[jworms]

first off you are a very skilled driver! your shifting is VERY fast! good job, man! :thumbup:


Hello all, owner of the e46 in that video :wave

The owner of the e36 in the video is my brother and the techno violet stock e36 he raced in the 2nd video is my old car.

In my opinion, this video is both exactly what I expected and not representative of how fast his car is.

Firstly, we have neither dynoed nor weighed the cars... and nor am I till I do some sort of power mod (I'm stock except for an aftermaket panel filter in the stock airbox). Neither of the cars is stripped out in any way, and nor are we going to-- we both have cars that are comfortable AND fast, and have no desire to change that.
you should definitely get a baseline dyno done if for nothing else to see what affect the mods you throw on have. i'd still like to know see the dyno graphs (from the same dyno preferably) and weight specs for each car. i think that will really give us some insight as to why you pulled as hard as you did.



That said, I think that our power to weight ratios are very similar. At low speeds my car barely pulls on his; in first gear I think his car may actually be faster. The reason my car pulls in the videos is that we went to high speeds-- period. We weren't able to start in first gear because the tires would spin every time (basically because it was below freezing outside at the time of). The weight of a car matters much less at high speed and aero/hp become the name of the game. If you watch the videos you'll see that I barely pull until 3rd gear.

Another thought: 1/4 slips aren't an indication of how fast a car is; they're an indication of a drivers ability to drive the quarter mile and how prepped the car is for the 1/4 mile. And if you want to debate that, we have slips from a bone stock e46 M3 that pulled a 12.7 sec quarter mile on the M3forum. Do I think the e46 M3 is a 12 second car? No. But a driver can do that. You're also not going to see a quarter mile time out of me-- I refuse to launch my car as is necessary to do well and really have no interest in driving in a straight line repeatedly. I'd also never powershift my car. Further, the e46 in particular is not well set up for the quarter-- you have to shift at 100mph. The SMG is worse off still-- sure, shifts are hard to get wrong but the launch is laughably bad (that said, my car is a manual).
i have to disagree here. ETs (the time) from a 1/4 mile run is not indicative of how fast a car is, trap speed (mph) definitely is. i'll assume you are referring to Lee (Mathews) Rutter for the 12.7 stock timeslip (and his 1.7X 60ft :eyecrazy ). i agree that his run is a fantastic feat and will rarely be reproduced, if ever. but, if you notice his trap speed it's still 107mph, which is the same as many other stock E46 M3s. trap speed generally doesn't lie and is a very good source of finding out which car will pull from a roll race.


Both videos (me vs him and him vs stock e36 M3) were made for the exact same purpose-- to show, in as unbiased a way as possible, the exact effect from a given set of mods. We made everything we could the same:
tire pressure
fuel level
gear at start
time of start
camera man alternated between cars to show the effect of his weight
AC was off in both cars

As much as possible, the driver was eliminated from the equation. The only place he really figured in was shift speed, and I think you can hear that we both did that pretty quickly. i think the video is good, but i think the E36 should have done better even if you have a factory freak.


Final, parting thought: my car is on the fast end of factory cars-- I've only ever been beaten by one M3, modded or stock, and his car is the fastest SMG car on our leaderboard (of 1/4 mile times). you wouldn't happen to be referring to drew's car would you? he's the E46 M3 SMG i was referring to earlier on in this thread where i said i trapped 1mph less than him at the same drag strip on the same day when he was modded, but still N/A. he's a very cool guy and his car is seriously fast as it sits right now.


Oh, and I think someone said they were local. If you'd like to make a video, I'm always game so long as we do it in a safe manner (late at night when nobody is on the roads, in the dry, scout the road our first then do runs) :buttrock
i wish i was, i'd be down in a heartbeat :(

[jworms]

my license? or hydroplaning at 120mph in the rain?

If i wanted to street race I wouldve bought an e36 and turbo'd it.

what do i have to gain from street racing?

Now im not some saint who would never run in the right scenario... but its got to be worth it to justify the consequences. (That scenario would be running jworms for ultimate BF.c E-cred :lol)
:rofl

you are going to bimmerfest this year right? :devillook

[jworms]

Cmon now, you cant just assume 100 lbs is equal to 10whp. It doesn't really work like that.that's a generally accepted rule. i didn't just make it up, but i agree it is a generalization none the less.


Lets look at power to weight ratios:

E46- 3415lbs/280whp=12.2
E36- 3175lbs/240whp=13.23

Also, I think it's safe to say that 240 WHP for the E36 is a generous number for a couple reasons:

1. The Schrick kit is a great, reliable kit, but there are much better performing options these days, and
2. With cams, in order to see real gains you at least need the other supporting bolt-ons like rear section exhaust, no cats, etc.i'm making 242rwhp without cams and a bunch of little things i still haven't done, so i'd say 240rwhp from cams is definitely very conservative. as i posted above there are plenty of cammed E36 M3s that are rwhp in the 260s.

so let's assume you have a fully bolt-on E36 M3 with aftermarket exhaust weight savings (-50lbs not including headers because i don't know how much savings is gained from them) and it makes 265rwhp:
3125lbs / 265rwhp = 11.7
let's try it again with only 255rwhp:
3125lbs / 255rwhp = 12.2

you just helped me explain part of why i don't understand how people refuse to believe that an E36 M3 can beat a stock E46 M3. like i said before, the numbers generally don't lie.

[Obioban]

first off you are a very skilled driver! your shifting is VERY fast! good job, man! :thumbup:


you should definitely get a baseline dyno done if for nothing else to see what affect the mods you throw on have. i'd still like to know see the dyno graphs (from the same dyno preferably) and weight specs for each car. i think that will really give us some insight as to why you pulled as hard as you did.

Thanks :)

Baseline isn't overly useful to me... I'm planning to do an engine sway-- LS7 or S85. I suspect we will get St|g dynoed at some point, and it will certainly be added to the thread when he is


i have to disagree here. ETs (the time) from a 1/4 mile run is not indicative of how fast a car is, trap speed (mph) definitely is. i'll assume you are referring to Lee (Mathews) Rutter for the 12.7 stock timeslip (and his 1.7X 60ft :eyecrazy ). i agree that his run is a fantastic feat and will rarely be reproduced, if ever. but, if you notice his trap speed it's still 107mph, which is the same as many other stock E46 M3s. trap speed generally doesn't lie and is a very good source of finding out which car will pull from a roll race.

I agree that trap speed eliminates the driver and shows how fast the car is in the quarter pretty well, but I don't think a quarter mile is long enough to show how fast a car is. The e39 is a great example of that-- it's faster than the e46 M3 on the highway but you wouldn't guess it looking at quarter miles/traps.


you wouldn't happen to be referring to drew's car would you? he's the E46 M3 SMG i was referring to earlier on in this thread where i said i trapped 1mph less than him at the same drag strip on the same day when he was modded, but still N/A. he's a very cool guy and his car is seriously fast as it sits right now.

The guy I was talking about is Pete, idz21 on m3forum. I only know one drew in the area who had an e46 M3, and he sold it for a 996 turbo :shifty

[mitchelrl]

Ryan, I didn't say lets go Ice Racing and the first person to wreck, loses. When it dries up, lets go run them for the people.

[Serious]

Ryan, I didn't say lets go Ice Racing and the first person to wreck, loses. When it dries up, lets go run them for the people.

probably; well see.

[Obioban]

hmm, when did my sig get eliminate :(

http://homepage.mac.com/ianlindvig/ian.gif

[jworms]

Thanks :)

Baseline isn't overly useful to me... I'm planning to do an engine sway-- LS7 or S85. I suspect we will get St|g dynoed at some point, and it will certainly be added to the thread when he is
oh wow. that sounds like you are going to have one hell of a beast after that's done.


I agree that trap speed eliminates the driver and shows how fast the car is in the quarter pretty well, but I don't think a quarter mile is long enough to show how fast a car is. The e39 is a great example of that-- it's faster than the e46 M3 on the highway but you wouldn't guess it looking at quarter miles/traps. on the contrary, that's exactly why E39 M5s pull on E46 M3s as speeds increase. E39 M5s typically trap between 108mph and 111mph (i believe the highest i've seen). definitely higher than the typical E46 M3 trap of 105-107mph.


The guy I was talking about is Pete, idz21 on m3forum. I only know one drew in the area who had an e46 M3, and he sold it for a 996 turbo :shifty
oh yeah, i somehow missed the fact that you meant local M3s. Drew is local to me (california), but he has a very quick E46 M3 SMG that has been considered a 'factory freak' by many.

[GG///M3]

hmm, when did my sig get eliminate :(

http://homepage.mac.com/ianlindvig/ian.gif

^ This looks like tons of fun :D...

[jworms]

hmm, when did my sig get eliminate :(

hxtp://homepage.mac.com/ianlindvig/ian.gif

i'm gonna guess it's because it's 2.5mb and the rules state that:

Your signature can not exceed 100Kb in size (for all images and text).

[Serious]

:rofl

you are going to bimmerfest this year right? :devillook

most likely but I think im going to fly. SB is a long haul from seattle, and with ridiculous cali gas prices its about the same $$$ to drive as fly, the bay bimmerz drive does make me want to drive it though . I did it in 05 in my girlfriends s50b32 M roadster which was brutal due to the lack of space, sadly i havent been able to go the last two years.

for laughs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x78AKSRrACI

[Obioban]

i'm gonna guess it's because it's 2.5mb and the rules state that:

lol, oh :shifty

[jworms]

most likely but I think im going to fly. SB is a long haul from seattle, and with ridiculous cali gas prices its about the same $$$ to drive as fly, the bay bimmerz drive does make me want to drive it though . I did it in 05 in my girlfriends s50b32 M roadster which was brutal due to the lack of space, sadly i havent been able to go the last two years.

for laughs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x78AKSRrACI
lol braveheart much?

what all was done to the s50b32 roadster? i'd love to race me some euro engine one of these days :alright

btw, it sucks you won't have your car for bfest, however i do still owe you a beer. maybe you can drive down to meet me in sacramento when i go up there to run 12s ;).
on second thought, that's way too far. i guess we'll never get to race :(

[Serious]

lol braveheart much?

what all was done to the s50b32 roadster? i'd love to race me some euro engine one of these days :alright

schrick cams
Conforti intake
pulleys
euro headers
SS mufflers
ltw flywheel
euro 6 speed
4.10
Kw v3
kenensis supercups
SToptech BBk front/rear
sway bars
camber plates
HMS roll bar
sparco roadsters wrapped in OEM bmw imola leather

some other stuff I forget I miss that car.

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x29/Serious332ci/roadsterside.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x29/Serious332ci/chelscar.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x29/Serious332ci/100_1962Small.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x29/Serious332ci/100_1972Small.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x29/Serious332ci/100_1947Small.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x29/Serious332ci/100_1940Small.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x29/Serious332ci/100_1915Small.jpg

[epj3]

This thread is very bfc-tarded.

-E46 has an extra 1,000 rpm. This right here could be the reason he pulled ahead. Look at the video, the e36 falls behind when he has to shift to 4th/5th.
-The estimated power to weight ratio was about the same according to Ian.
-E46 has dual-vanos which may or may not (depending on the methods of tuning) provide a better, albeit minor, improvement over the s52.
-The e36 runs fine. If the e36 had the e46 m3's 6spd transmission and 3.62 dif ratio, it would probably keep up fine.

[Serious]

This thread is very bfc-tarded.

-E46 has an extra 1,000 rpm. This right here could be the reason he pulled ahead. Look at the video, the e36 falls behind when he has to shift to 4th/5th.
-The estimated power to weight ratio was about the same according to Ian.
-E46 has dual-vanos which may or may not (depending on the methods of tuning) provide a better, albeit minor, improvement over the s52.
-The e36 runs fine. If the e36 had the e46 m3's 6spd transmission and 3.62 dif ratio, it would probably keep up fine.

none of those things makes any difference at all.

dual vanos is for daily driving torque.
6 speed is just the e36's 5 speed with an over drive gear. 3.64 + 19" wheels = e36's w/ 3.38 and 17's
Extra RPM's arent that big of a deal.

[jworms]

schrick cams
Conforti intake
pulleys
euro headers
SS mufflers
ltw flywheel
euro 6 speed
4.10
Kw v3
kenensis supercups
SToptech BBk front/rear
sway bars
camber plates
HMS roll bar
sparco roadsters wrapped in OEM bmw imola leather

some other stuff I forget I miss that car.
very nice! what was causing the power loss in 3rd/4th gear? i assume that's why the the E46 M3 pulled towards the end?


none of those things makes any difference at all.

dual vanos is for daily driving torque.
6 speed is just the e36's 5 speed with an over drive gear. 3.64 + 19" wheels = e36's w/ 3.38 and 17's
Extra RPM's arent that big of a deal.
heh, beat me to the punch ;)

[Serious]

very nice! what was causing the power loss in 3rd/4th gear? i assume that's why the the E46 M3 pulled towards the end?


heh, beat me to the punch ;)

she doesnt own it anymore... but it had something to do with the shop who did the engine swap, I could never trace it down and she sold it 2 years ago.

I think she is going to be getting a Mini Cooper S now.

[saint166]

sunbelts cams are far better than the shricks. along with headwork, will outpower s54 engines, at lower rpms.

the reason people want to smoke a e46 is for the simple reason that they get a badass motor, from the factory, and the e36 has to be built in order to make similiar or better power. but still, the engine wont breath at super high rpms like the s54. but thats ok, just shift gears :)
i have been waiting for u to chime in here . your car with the mods done and your 3:91 diffy is the perfect car to beat a stock e46 m

[mitchelrl]

i have been waiting for u to chime in here . your car with the mods done and your 3:91 diffy is the perfect car to beat a stock e46 m

hehe, that's why I'm trying to get Serious to run me =)

[rommelrules]

i have been waiting for u to chime in here . your car with the mods done and your 3:91 diffy is the perfect car to beat a stock e46 m

Great. Race to a speedo indicated 180 MPH and we'll see who's faster.

In Mexico or legally in a closed road, obviously...

[ptldM3]

I would think that m3 would have atleast 240-250 whp, now if that e46 was stock it would make around 270 whp thats only a 20-30 hp difference plus factor in the weight difference a stock e36 should be 240lbs lighter but with all the aftermarket parts this one should be around 300lbs. Yes the e46 would still win but i was excpecting the race to be close maby the e46 inching by but then pulling away ones the cars are in the triple digets. What makes everyone think the e46 is stock?

The e36 is fast in the hand of a good driver look at what this bone stock e36 M3 ran.
1/4 Mile ET:13.6141/4 Mile MPH:102.5001/8 Mile ET:0.0001/8 Mile MPH:0.0000-60 Foot ET:1.975Temperature F:67.0Timeslip Scan:Car Make:BMWCar Model:M3Car Type:Car Year:1995Driver:TomE-Mail:PrivateVideos:M3 Videos (http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW--M3-Drag-Racing-Videos.html)

[saint166]

Great. Race to a speedo indicated 180 MPH and we'll see who's faster.

In Mexico or legally in a closed road, obviously...
im talking 1/4 race . my car has also has a 3:91 lsd but i have a 6 speed . mexico is a bit of a long haul for me lol .

[Serious]

What makes everyone think the e46 is stock?



because it is. he is well known member on m3 forum.

[jworms]

I would think that m3 would have atleast 240-250 whp, now if that e46 was stock it would make around 270 whp thats only a 20-30 hp difference plus factor in the weight difference a stock e36 should be 240lbs lighter but with all the aftermarket parts this one should be around 300lbs. Yes the e46 would still win but i was excpecting the race to be close maby the e46 inching by but then pulling away ones the cars are in the triple digets. What makes everyone think the e46 is stock?
i agree, given the both cars' setups the races seem like they should have been a lot closer.


The e36 is fast in the hand of a good driver look at what this bone stock e36 M3 ran.
1/4 Mile ET:13.6141/4 Mile MPH:102.5001/8 Mile ET:0.0001/8 Mile MPH:0.0000-60 Foot ET:1.975Temperature F:67.0Timeslip Scan:Car Make:BMWCar Model:M3Car Type:Car Year:1995Driver:TomE-Mail:PrivateVideos:M3 Videos (http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW--M3-Drag-Racing-Videos.html)
that seems like an abnormally high trap for a stock E36 M3, especially a '95 (unless it's a euro?). it looks like a dragtimes entry, do you have the link to where you found that? i can't seem to find it on that site.

[ptldM3]

Go to the bmw section then page three.

[jworms]

Go to the bmw section then page three.
ah ok, found it. it's not marked as 'stock' on the site which is probably why i missed it. the owner mentions it has a cosmos intake but i doubt that would yield gains large enough to warrant such optimistic results. there's no timeslip to analyze either. i'm a bit skeptical of this one, but i guess anything can happen.

[bmw3er]

For what its worth, when I track my obd1 S52 325i, I have to lift on the main straight to let stock E46 M3s pass. If they are quicker through the bends and I have to point them by down the straight, if I run flat out they cant get by me. I suspect that if the straight was long enough, they would eventually pull ahead but from exit turn 15 at 30mph, to entry turn 1 at 130ish we run about dead even, and I have to lift to let them by. I am doing my first dyno in May, and im at about 3000lbs even so I will have some numbers soon.

[mitchelrl]

Ryan,

Blue Skies today =)

[libravcs]

This thread is very bfc-tardedThat's a bit harsh. But on day two, after further debate, much chiming in, the end result is essentially the same. A stock E46 is faster than a modified, (Non-FI) E36 with seats and carpet and spare tires and everything else removed. Close only counts in horseshoes and handgrenades.

[jworms]

That's a bit harsh. But on day two, after further debate, much chiming in, the end result is essentially the same. A stock E46 is faster than a modified, (Non-FI) E36 with seats and carpet and spare tires and everything else removed. Close only counts in horseshoes and handgrenades.did you miss the part where i posted my 1/8th mile results for my basic bolt-on (read: not fully modded) E36 M3? i think that alone would prove that i can beat most stock E46 M3s. or maybe you think that if i add gearing, headers, cams, traction control delete, carbon fiber hood/trunk, pulleys, and ltw wheels my car would get slower? :rolleyes

also, feel free to use fishforlife's 1/4 mile results to compare to the typical stock E46 M3 too. i think you'll find that it's entirely possible and believable that US Spec E36 M3s without FI beat stock E46 M3s.

btw ptldM3: i just stumbled upon another E36 M3 that has a pretty high trap for mostly stock: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109226

here's the quote from that thread:

I ran at the California Speedway in Fontana. It was the night races so it was like 70 degrees. My best time was:

R/T...... .612
60'...... 2.120
330..... 5.748
1/8...... 8.870
mph.... 81.09
1000... 11.593
1/4...... 13.798
mph.... 103.55

My mods include: Dinan CF CAI, Dinan Stage II SW, HKS klasse Exhaust system. I ran with my new Kumho ectsa mx tires. They hooked like nothing I love these tires. I launched at 2800 with 25 psi in my tires. I think that is my best time i can do with my car. I also only have 40,000 miles on my car so when my aa supercharger comes we will see what i will hit with that. Well i welcome all comments and thoughts thnx.

Serge
that's at cali speedway which is at around 1100ft elevation.

[GG///M3]

did you miss the part where i posted my 1/8th mile results for my basic bolt-on (read: not fully modded) E36 M3? i think that alone would prove that i can beat most stock E46 M3s. or maybe you think that if i add gearing, headers, cams, traction control delete, carbon fiber hood/trunk, pulleys, and ltw wheels my car would get slower? :rolleyes

also, feel free to use fishforlife's 1/4 mile results to compare to the typical stock E46 M3 too. i think you'll find that it's entirely possible and believable that US Spec E36 M3s without FI beat stock E46 M3s.

btw ptldM3: i just stumbled upon another E36 M3 that has a pretty high trap for mostly stock: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109226

here's the quote from that thread:

that's at cali speedway which is at around 1100ft elevation.

It gets to a point jworms as you very well know its a waste of time telling people these things. I say go out and race a e46 m3 from say a 5mph roll, and have another car follow with a camcorder.:cool

[libravcs]

I stand corrected. If you think 1/8th of a mile and 1/4 of a mile dragstrip times are the end all/be all to what car (as opposed to the DRIVER) is quicker overall then I honestly believe your E36 can probably beat Ferraris, Porsches, and the occassional Forumula 1 car. (This is usually the part where I put the emoticon of the guy rolling on the floor, but I was told by a mod that I offended pbonslab and BennyFizzle and a couple of others by using it, so I wont)

[jworms]

I stand corrected. If you think 1/8th of a mile and 1/4 of a mile dragstrip times are the end all/be all to what car (as opposed to the DRIVER) is quicker overall then I honestly believe your E36 can probably beat Ferraris, Porsches, and the occassional Forumula 1 car. (This is usually the part where I put the emoticon of the guy rolling on the floor, but I was told by a mod that I offended pbonslab and BennyFizzle and a couple of others by using it, so I wont)

lol, do a bit of research on trap speeds and come back. even the best drivers can't defy trap speeds. assuming the driver is at least decent the trap speeds will not fluctuate too much when compared to an amazing driver. to my knowledge no stock E46 M3 with ANY driver has EVER trapped higher than 107mph. i challenge you to find evidence that proves otherwise. until then sit down and be quiet.

[GG///M3]

I stand corrected. If you think 1/8th of a mile and 1/4 of a mile dragstrip times are the end all/be all to what car (as opposed to the DRIVER) is quicker overall then I honestly believe your E36 can probably beat Ferraris, Porsches, and the occassional Forumula 1 car. (This is usually the part where I put the emoticon of the guy rolling on the floor, but I was told by a mod that I offended pbonslab and BennyFizzle and a couple of others by using it, so I wont)

Well if your refering to jworms his car is alot lighter then a stock e46 m3. I'm pretty sure he would take a e46 m3 upto a certain speed. I dont think there is any falsehood in that, or e36 m3 nut hugging in that statement. Try not to take things to another level.

[jworms]

It gets to a point jworms as you very well know its a waste of time telling people these things. I say go out and race a e46 m3 from say a 5mph roll, and have another car follow with a camcorder.:cool

i wish i could race from a 5mph roll. sadly i can't due to traction issues, but i'm currently working on fixing that with some DRs. if all goes well, i should have them by the end of the week.

if any stock (or modded N/A for that matter) E46 M3 wants to meet at irwindale and compare 1/8th mile results i'd be down.

[Serious]

Ryan,

Blue Skies today =)

do you (or anyone else for that) honestly think your car is going to be faster then mine?

I already beat you by what...like 8 cars. and youve added what a ltw flywheel and a 3.73... that isnt going to make up for 8+ cars.

Now i may have been more interesting in racing if you were trying to antagonizing me by calling me a forumhopper.

As it stands I really have nothing to gain by racing. I already know what the results are going to be. Its not worth the chance of a ticket.

[Serious]

i wish i could race from a 5mph roll. sadly i can't due to traction issues, but i'm currently working on fixing that with some DRs. if all goes well, i should have them by the end of the week.

if any stock (or modded N/A for that matter) E46 M3 wants to meet at irwindale and compare 1/8th mile results i'd be down.


all Im going to say is that jworms car is fast... he knows how to drive and for sure would beat alot of e46 m3's driven by their owners.

But if you all havent noticed he loves to quote the absolute best times for the e36 and then compare it to "average" or "typical" e46 m3 times.

If your going to be fair and scientific then compare best runs against best runs. If you do this you know your car wont match the sub 13 and 13 flat times few e46 m3 owners have achieved.

Now i would never say those sub 13 sec times are an average for e46 m3's... hell low 13's (13.3 and below) are a really good time for a stock/semi stock e46 m3.

power/weight ratio is extremely vital in drag racing since the launch is everything, jworms has a very similar power/weight ratio as an e46 m3 so its understandable he is running similar times at similar traps.

Now, Its my belief if you were to take an excellent condition e46 m3 driven by someone who knows how drive properly and faced jworms or a similar e36 in a rolling race from say 20-130/140... I believe the e46 would be ahead probably by a fairly small margin (under 2 cars for sure)... jsut due to how well the s54 pulls at high speeds and weight is much less of a factor.

Ive also been saying since the one fo the first posts in this thread that i thought and expected the cammed e36 to hang stronger with the e46. It would be interesting to see dyno's of both cars (although getting an accurate dyno of the e46 is difficult)

[GG///M3]

all Im going to say is that jworms car is fast... he knows how to drive and for sure would beat alot of e46 m3's driven by their owners.

But if you all havent noticed he loves to quote the absolute best times for the e36 and then compare it to "average" or "typical" e46 m3 times.

If your going to be fair and scientific then compare best runs against best runs. If you do this you know your car wont match the sub 13 and 13 flat times few e46 m3 owners have achieved.

Now i would never say those sub 13 sec times are an average for e46 m3's... hell low 13's (13.3 and below) are a really good time for a stock/semi stock e46 m3.

power/weight ratio is extremely vital in drag racing since the launch is everything, jworms has a very similar power/weight ratio as an e46 m3 so its understandable he is running similar times at similar traps.

Now, Its my belief if you were to take an excellent condition e46 m3 driven by someone who knows how drive properly and faced jworms or a similar e36 in a rolling race from say 20-130/140... I believe the e46 would be ahead probably by a fairly small margin (under 2 cars for sure)... jsut due to how well the s54 pulls at high speeds and weight is much less of a factor.

Ive also been saying since the one fo the first posts in this thread that i thought and expected the cammed e36 to hang stronger with the e46. It would be interesting to see dyno's of both cars (although getting an accurate dyno of the e46 is difficult)

What is the best time for a fully stock e46 m3? A cousin of mine ran 12.87 with a tune, and an exhaust. It also was an smg car. Btw you should take mitchelrl up on his offer. A nice little run from say 40-130mph. I have heard those 3.73's are perfect for a track car.

[jworms]

all Im going to say is that jworms car is fast... he knows how to drive and for sure would beat alot of e46 m3's driven by their owners.thanks man. i really do appreciate that :)


But if you all havent noticed he loves to quote the absolute best times for the e36 and then compare it to "average" or "typical" e46 m3 times.

If your going to be fair and scientific then compare best runs against best runs. If you do this you know your car wont match the sub 13 and 13 flat times few e46 m3 owners have achieved.

Now i would never say those sub 13 sec times are an average for e46 m3's... hell low 13's (13.3 and below) are a really good time for a stock/semi stock e46 m3.
i don't think i use the absolute best times for E36 M3s, i use my E36 M3's times. if they happen to be better than most others then so be it. i use my times because i know exactly what went into achieving them and because there aren't many good sources for similarly modded E36 M3s. also, i've got nothing to hide and always try to be as honest as i can, always providing all evidence that is acquired.

as for running low 13s in my car, i thought you just recently replied to my 1/8th mile results saying that my run would be good for low 13s. here's the link to that thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=969057 post #5 in that thread.

i also believe that i can run with the best of the E46 M3s. i don't believe 12s are some pipe dream for E36 M3s and i think i can run 12s with my car setup as it is. now, you may say something about me having to use DRs to hit 12s, to which i would agree...well partially. Lee (Mathews) Rutter ran his E46 M3 into the 12s bone stock and trapped 107mph. he also managed to pull an unbelievable 1.7 60ft with street tires. i have no intention of trying to match that kind of 60ft with street tires, but i hope the DRs will allow me to get close. i admit, i suck at launching my car, so in an attempt to pull a good 60ft that could be obtained with street tires (Mathews example) and do it consistently, i am using DRs.



power/weight ratio is extremely vital in drag racing since the launch is everything, jworms has a very similar power/weight ratio as an e46 m3 so its understandable he is running similar times at similar traps.man... do you know how far we've come over the years with our discussions? i mean really go back to our first conversations about this very topic. i bet back then you never expected to be saying the things you're saying now. if i am honest, i have grown this certain respect of you because of that. then again, maybe it's just that i like being challenged :). i'm really pretty relieved that now when somebody posts a kill about an N/A E36 M3 beating an E46 M3 the immediate response isn't to throw up the BS flag. in fact, such a thread just happened to pop up: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=972410

this forum as a whole has come a long way on this topic since a couple years ago.


Now, Its my belief if you were to take an excellent condition e46 m3 driven by someone who knows how drive properly and faced jworms or a similar e36 in a rolling race from say 20-130/140... I believe the e46 would be ahead probably by a fairly small margin (under 2 cars for sure)... jsut due to how well the s54 pulls at high speeds and weight is much less of a factor.
well, you saw the video of me and the shady E46 M3 SMG owner go at it up to almost 150mph. even if you don't believe me about his ricer racing tactics, you can still get an idea of what happens. in the videos (from this perspective) he is a car length, or less, ahead of me at the end.

those videos are here:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RMdRpgZZqes
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1U7l_MTN1iQ

also, if you want to have a race starting at 20mph you should consider that i will most likely pull on the E46 M3 at those speeds. so, even if the E46 M3 can pull as speeds increase, it will have to make up the gap that was created in the lower speeds.


Ive also been saying since the one fo the first posts in this thread that i thought and expected the cammed e36 to hang stronger with the e46. It would be interesting to see dyno's of both cars (although getting an accurate dyno of the e46 is difficult)
i saw that you said that a few times, but despite that, you and i both watched as this thread digressed into what it is now. i mean c'mon...you had to have known i'd end up showing up to this party ;)

[mitchelrl]

do you (or anyone else for that) honestly think your car is going to be faster then mine?

I already beat you by what...like 8 cars. and youve added what a ltw flywheel and a 3.73... that isnt going to make up for 8+ cars.

Now i may have been more interesting in racing if you were trying to antagonizing me by calling me a forumhopper.

As it stands I really have nothing to gain by racing. I already know what the results are going to be. Its not worth the chance of a ticket.

When did we EVER race when you had 8 cars on me? We raced from a dig at a stop light and you had maybe half a car on me at about 80mph and I had to hit the brakes so you could merge over as the lane was ending.

The only other time we raced was immediately after that from a 5-10mph roll going up a very steep hill and that wasn't 8 cars. It was 2 cars at best.

Go AFK in World of Warcraft for an hour, your guild will understand and come have some fun in your car.

[mitchelrl]

schrick cams
Conforti intake
pulleys
euro headers
SS mufflers
ltw flywheel
euro 6 speed
4.10
Kw v3
kenensis supercups
SToptech BBk front/rear
sway bars
camber plates
HMS roll bar
sparco roadsters wrapped in OEM bmw imola leather

some other stuff I forget I miss that car.

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x29/Serious332ci/roadsterside.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x29/Serious332ci/chelscar.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x29/Serious332ci/100_1962Small.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x29/Serious332ci/100_1972Small.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x29/Serious332ci/100_1947Small.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x29/Serious332ci/100_1940Small.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x29/Serious332ci/100_1915Small.jpg

Kyle raced this same car (when chelsea was his problem), and managed to pull in his bolt on M3. They even traded cars and chelsea pulled her own car while driving kyles M3.

That race with the M3 is questionable. If this car isn't even faster than a 98 M3 with basic bolt ons, how is it magically pulling on the E46 M? I doubt the ///M was really even trying.

[Serious]

When did we EVER race when you had 8 cars on me? We raced from a dig at a stop light and you had maybe half a car on me at about 80mph and I had to hit the brakes so you could merge over as the lane was ending.

The only other time we raced was immediately after that from a 5-10mph roll going up a very steep hill and that wasn't 8 cars. It was 2 cars at best.

Go AFK in World of Warcraft for an hour, your guild will understand and come have some fun in your car.

alright you got your wish.

meet at the arby's/hollywood video at the bottom of that hill around 9:20-9:30 2nite ... im not bringing a camera so if you want someone to video tape bring them along.

[Imola M]

Kyle raced this same car (when chelsea was his problem), and managed to pull in his bolt on M3. They even traded cars and chelsea pulled her own car while driving kyles M3.

That race with the M3 is questionable. If this car isn't even faster than a 98 M3 with basic bolt ons, how is it magically pulling on the E46 M? I doubt the ///M was really even trying.

First of all, I was the passenger when Ryan raced you in his stock E46 and he pulled more than 2 car lengths on you. The run where you had to "hit the brakes" was thanks to his terrible launch that run (and a bit of clutch burning), but you didn't pull that time either. In fact, let's put this magazine racing aside and throw up some real times. Ryan ran a 13.5 at the actual drag strip, you ran a high 14 iirc. Post slips to correct me if I'm wrong. Is that not evidence enough for who will win?

When my roadster had misfire codes for 2 cylinders, I pulled Kyle in it slightly, then we switched cars and I pulled him again (this time I was driving his E36). After I got new plugs it wasn't close. Even against Ryan's vert I put 4+ car lengths every time, and it had the same mods as Kyle's E36. Here I am racing an E46 M3 with intake/exhaust for example. We did 2 runs, I pulled both times. If you don't think he's trying, explain why the car dips so hard when he shifts gears under full throttle.
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=7267229

This message board warrior shit is entertaining but try to keep it accurate. ;)

I'll be there with the camera to put this to rest if you'd like.

[Serious]

replying to jworms because his post was too long to quote.

actually man if you remember those arguments we had before were more about dyno numbers then actual drag times.

remember before you went on a dynojet you were saying you had something like 255-265whp on a dynojet without cams, which I knew wasn't possible. IIRC i guessed you had like 235-240whp and i was pretty damn close.

I always knew your car was fast, but all of your video's racing e46 m3's were flawed for some reason or another... so all we ended up doing was comparing paper numbers.

Yes i think your car in its current condition could possibly run 13.1-13.3's, while thats extremely fast for an e36 m3 it still isnt as fast as the fastest e46 m3's have run. which is kinda the whole argument isnt it?

edit: BTW I actually ran a 13.50 @ 104 w/ a bad exhaust camshaft position sensor throwing a check engine light, slipping clutch, and i had only owned the car for 2 weeks and sucked at driving.

[Sebaflex]

tired of these threads...

Cammed E36 > E46 m3

period.

[Serious]

tired of these threads...

Cammed E36 > E46 m3

period.

a stock e46 maybe.

headers, d/a race, 4.10's, and some weight reduction and no e36 m3 short of FI/nos is going to keep up.

keep in mind were comparing a BONE STOCK e46 m3 vs. a either a non cammed but full bolt on w/ 400lbs of weight reduction or a fully cammed and usually custom tuned e36.

[Sebaflex]

a stock e46 maybe.

headers, d/a race, 4.10's, and some weight reduction and no e36 m3 short of FI/nos is going to keep up.

keep in mind were comparing a BONE STOCK e46 m3 vs. a either a non cammed but full bolt on w/ 400lbs of weight reduction or a fully cammed and usually custom tuned e36.

Couldnt agree more.. :cool

[jworms]

replying to jworms because his post was too long to quote.

actually man if you remember those arguments we had before were more about dyno numbers then actual drag times.

remember before you went on a dynojet you were saying you had something like 255-265whp on a dynojet without cams, which I knew wasn't possible. IIRC i guessed you had like 235-240whp and i was pretty damn close.

I always knew your car was fast, but all of your video's racing e46 m3's were flawed for some reason or another... so all we ended up doing was comparing paper numbers.
i won't spend the time looking but i still think there's probably a few times where you've said something along the lines of "no E36 M3 short of FI will beat an E46 M3." anywho it doesn't matter, i just found it entertaining.

i also don't believe most of my videos have flaws. if there were any, i made it a point to explain them. i think at the very least ('flaws' and all) they gave a general idea of how my car performs in comparison. my videos also show multiple different cars i've gone up against, some of which would trounce upon a stock E46 M3...


Yes i think your car in its current condition could possibly run 13.1-13.3's, while thats extremely fast for an e36 m3 it still isnt as fast as the fastest e46 m3's have run. which is kinda the whole argument isnt it?
that's why i mentioned i'm shooting for 12s :)

we can use my 1/8th mile results to speculate what i might, or might not get in the 1/4 all day long. i think we both agree that they show low 13s are definitely conceivable at this point. based on what i've seen from other cars, i also think my car is capable of getting into the 12s and trap at least 106-107mph, which would effectively be keeping up with the best of the E46 M3s. only one way to find out though...and remember, i always have quite a few more mods to do if that extra nudge is necessary:)



Ryan ran a 13.6 at the actual drag stripwhat was the trap for these runs? can you (or whoever) post the timeslips? i'm more than curious.
EDIT: 13.5@104mph not too bad considering. what track was this at? what did you trap in the 1/8th? ;)

[jworms]

a stock e46 maybe.

headers, d/a race, 4.10's, and some weight reduction and no e36 m3 short of FI/nos is going to keep up.

keep in mind were comparing a BONE STOCK e46 m3 vs. a either a non cammed but full bolt on w/ 400lbs of weight reduction or a fully cammed and usually custom tuned e36.

i'd have to disagree with this one too based on what i've experienced, but it's hard for me to say. the only evidence i have to support this is the E46 M3 SMG that ran the 1/4 mile the same day that had:

3.91 Diff
Streamline Panel Filter
Stebro Section 1 mid pipe
BHS Under Drive Pulleys
Back seats removed

i only trapped 1mph less than him. here's the videos:
E46 M3 SMG: http://youtube.com/watch?v=uyzUKTuFNC8
My E36 M3: http://youtube.com/watch?v=mNupAgo0Yh4

keep in mind that this was also with bent exhaust valves. this is my only source for running a modded E46 M3 and it doesn't have the exact mods you described, so it may not hold too much weight in that argument. i'd like to think i still have at least another 10-20rwhp left in my car and at least another 50lbs of easy weight savings though :)

[Serious]

if i end up putting the money i just got from selling my turbo stuff into evosport cams and headers i dont see any e46s hanging with me. what is the fastest trap and e.t. posted by a n/a e46 m3.

LOL o wow.

no e46's will hang with you? You know there are e46 m3's out there with 330+whp n/a stroker setups that have just as much weight reduction as you do. right?

[mitchelrl]

alright you got your wish.

meet at the arby's/hollywood video at the bottom of that hill around 9:20-9:30 2nite ... im not bringing a camera so if you want someone to video tape bring them along.

See you there.

[mitchelrl]

I've gutted my back seat and trunk to compensate for my passenger.

Mods are current and in my sig.

[mitchelrl]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJWKE974GhE

Looks like 3-4 CL's.

I'll antagonize him again after I get an M50 and a tune =P

Enjoy the beer, good sports all around.

Both of our cars were well driven, no driver error or anything like that. My car is fairly low on the totem pole as far as engine mods, but the diff accounts for A LOT.

[sheps]

The seat removal didn't make up for me, Mitchel. We just have to figure out how to get to 405 north next time.

[Serious]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPiqzfFzA7s

ill make a post with pics gimme a few min.

Dont make fun of me ;) "3rd gear...... SEE YA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" LOL WTF.

[mitchelrl]

I wish we could have ran them from a dig.

[mitchelrl]

what speeds..i dont think that went much deeper than 115-120. it also sounded like you shifted immediately like you were in second for like m10pm if that. thanks you 2 for doing this...especially you serious;) for taking your car out and settling that for a second time but whos counting.

Yeah, I was in 2nd gear at around 5.5k RPM's. It probably wouldn't have been as bad from a dig, but there's no excuses being made. Except for that my car isn't tuned for this weather and I had a passenger and I didn't have my power stickers on. He had his BMWCCA stickers and those are like 30WHP right there.

Like I said, I'll antagonize him when I do my M50, hfm and tuning =P and I'll try to get him to go from a dig.

[mitchelrl]

haha, if he "grants" it.

[mitchelrl]

40's to 120ish

[LeMansGTS]

Man all the E46 M3s are always on the west coast. I have yet to line up with an E46 M3 for some proper races. I wonder how my car would do, as it probably weighs 3400 pounds or so

[DTM325PWR]

dam mitchel! race from down low and it will be a little closer with the diff. but only till 80mph or so then he will be gone. you said it....you need a couple more mods

[jworms]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJWKE974GhE

Looks like 3-4 CL's.

I'll antagonize him again after I get an M50 and a tune =P

Enjoy the beer, good sports all around.

Both of our cars were well driven, no driver error or anything like that. My car is fairly low on the totem pole as far as engine mods, but the diff accounts for A LOT.
good stuff guys! mitchel you really need to do the m50 manifold man! it's really a whole new car afterwards. the tune will be nice too because it gives you that extra bit of RPMs to work with, making 5000rpm roll races that much better :D

[mitchelrl]

man...

I've honestly hung better with E46's and that one in particular prior to my flywheel, ecu, exhaust and diff.

I just took it for another spin and it felt a lot faster than when we were filming. It was about 5 degrees cooler.

The car feels like a damn axe murderer when I'm in 2nd at 20mph and just punch it. That video just doesn't convey it. I've got this nifty check engine light, I guess I'm going to start digging through my car tomorrow.

Maybe it's all in my head.

[Imola M]

It'd probably be closer from a dig since that's where your diff matters. My 4.10 didn't do much on the freeway either, it was all 2nd and 3rd gear. At higher speeds there's really no touching an E46, it's all top end and he's got 1,000 more rpm than you.

[Serious]

Some pics.

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x29/Serious332ci/100_3092-1.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x29/Serious332ci/100_3093-1.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x29/Serious332ci/100_3094-1.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x29/Serious332ci/100_3095-1.jpg

Random impromptu BMW meet at a local 7-11 Post race. "Sneakymike" in the Mcoupe just kinda drove by.
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x29/Serious332ci/100_3105.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x29/Serious332ci/100_3104.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x29/Serious332ci/100_3103.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x29/Serious332ci/100_3102.jpg

BTW mitchel bought my cameragirl (imolaM) beer which he didnt have to do but was awesome of him.

The e36 looks amazing in person, and im jealous of the suspension (tc kline s/a) which will be my next mod.

[mitchelrl]

Ryan, a New Camera should be your next mod =P.

Thanks for coming out.

[KnudsonsM3]

It'd probably be closer from a dig since that's where your diff matters. My 4.10 didn't do much on the freeway either, it was all 2nd and 3rd gear. At higher speeds there's really no touching an E46, it's all top end and he's got 1,000 more rpm than you.

F/i e36 would touch an e46s top speed dont yeah think?

[mitchelrl]

F/i e36 would touch an e46s top speed dont yeah think?

You really didn't put a lot of thought into that question, did you?

[Serious]

Ryan, a New Camera should be your next mod =P.

Thanks for coming out.

I can borrow my brothers DSLR if i want, its just big and clunky.


F/i e36 would touch an e46s top speed dont yeah think?

ummmm of course, with longer gearing... I think an e46 m3's top speed is ~175 so it wouldnt be too hard for a turbo e36 to go easily past that.

[DTM325PWR]

you should have raced mike's coupe......that would have been a race!

[DTM325PWR]

and mitchel's suspension is amazing! go kart like. i love it. i need to get rid of my setup for something like his.

[mitchelrl]

and mitchel's suspension is amazing! go kart like. i love it. i need to get rid of my setup for something like his.

I haven't even begun to push it though either.

[libravcs]

The pics and video are blocked here at my job. I take it the modified E36 beat the stock E46? If not...here we go again. lol

[mitchelrl]

Whaaah?

Nope, E46 pulled well on both accounts.