97 E36 M3 or 06 GTO??

[peteraq1]

Thinking of getting rid of my M3 to get a 06 GTO M6. What do you guys think

[m3j0n]

id say there is a big price difference. the gto is a far superior car but you have to expect that with 10years of technology. Stock to stock, the cars arent even in the same category, imo... the 06 has the 6.0l motor with 400hp/400tq and has more of the optional features as stock; far better than the 5.7l cars.... Also, its the last year of the gto and definitely the one to get. I LOVE the blue and red interiors. I beleive the manual cars pull significantly more money since they are more desireable and the 6sp was actually a cost option on that car. I havent met someone that has driven a mint one and disliked it. The stock suspension needs work and has been known to be noisy and kind of soft. On the 06, they made it a little stiffer, but is still noisy.good luck. I know you will love the gto.

[RS VR6]

My friend has a turbo'd GTO...it GTFO's real well...

[vanos954]

Keep the M. The GTO is nice sure...it's got a nice(ish) interior and rides fairly well but it doesn't handle well, is heavy and you can feel the weight. I dunno...I had a 95 M3 with the euro hfm, injectors, chip, exhaust with Koni's and it was so much more fun than the GTO. Yeah the GTO is quick but there's more to life than going around corners sideways with 1 wheel spinning (yeah it has an LSD but it doesn't work well haha).

[BMWManiac]

I second the motion for the GTO....really a beast of a car....you can always upgrade the suspension....

[Nik1703]

m3 = more refined, classy car

GTO = sloppy power, stale looks



your choice

[m3j0n]

Keep the M. The GTO is nice sure...it's got a nice(ish) interior and rides fairly well but it doesn't handle well, is heavy and you can feel the weight. I dunno...I had a 95 M3 with the euro hfm, injectors, chip, exhaust with Koni's and it was so much more fun than the GTO. Yeah the GTO is quick but there's more to life than going around corners sideways with 1 wheel spinning (yeah it has an LSD but it doesn't work well haha).

I dont think its exactly fair to compare a heavily modded e36 to a stock gto in the hadling department... THere must be somethign wrong with your LSD, because mine is perfect. Btw, werent there some suspension upgrades from 05 to 06?



m3 = more refined, classy car

GTO = sloppy power, stale looks



your choice

the e36 was a classy car back in 98..... now, not so much...

have you driven a gto? I was VERY impressed when i drove one and ended up buying one.... and i personally think the 06 gto with hood scoops and the rear wing looks fantastic.

[Alecs MacDonald]

Dont let all the biased talk fool you. The GTO really is a beast of a car. The suspension noise is no worse (actually better) than that of a e36 m3 IMHO.

[m3j0n]

Dont let all the biased talk fool you. The GTO really is a beast of a car. The suspension noise is no worse (actually better) than that of a e36 m3 IMHO.

+1... stock for stock, the gto will absolutely embarrass an e36 in almost every category. For the price, its a steal.

[Sadiq]

very fast
but very ugly

[LeMansGTS]

My brother has a 2006 GTO and before that he had a 1995 M3. I have a 1999 M3 currently, and in terms of comfort, the GTO is hands down the winner. The same goes for torque and acceleration. More likely than not, quicker acceleration, not exceptional handling will provide you with entertainment. Every freeway is a straightaway and the GTO goes to 160 like nobody's business. Add in the warranty and the aggressive looks and you have yourself a winner.

The M3 has superior driver positioning, in that you can see the road in front of the hood (I like this). The M3 is more responsive in corners and has a stiffer suspension. Again, if you want a car that can turn well and give your ass a workout on bumpy roads, then the M3 is the car to have. The M3 has a prettier interior than the GTO, especially if it is two-tone and has vader seats, but this is also subjective.

The M3 also has many more aftermarket modification choices, albeit they not always as effctive as ones available for the GTO. 2500 bucks and you have yourself a GTO producing 423whp.

Given the choice, I went with the M3 over the GTO, but that may be because mine only has 19K miles and a supercharger on it. I also know that many maintenance items are available on these boards for next to nothing. Still, the GTO has a factory warranty that comes with all the power, and that is difficult to beat.

Not too shabby, my bro's GTO:

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc32/utexas06gto/P1010095.jpg

My M3:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u28/vinogradovsm/Image00003-2.jpg

[villagethief]

sexy M above me..

[LeMansGTS]

sexy M above me..

Thank you. How about some pictures of that turbo?

[///Maniac]

Or is that GTO Gawd Awful Ugly as BALLS?

I couldn't care less about 500000 hp.

To me, it's as bad as a trans am.
:eek:

Jonathan

[LeMansGTS]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6ApdU_ceIw

This my brother's GTO above accelerating to 130 mph. $2500 in mods = 423 whp

[LeMansGTS]

Or is that GTO Gawd Awful Ugly as BALLS?

I couldn't care less about 500000 hp.

To me, it's as bad as a trans am.
:eek:

Jonathan

It is difficult to elicit any positive responses about the GTO on a BMW forum. For the money, GTO > E36 M

[///Maniac]

There are TONS of cars I think are 1000 times better than the E36 M3, but the GTO is not one of them.

As a designer by trade for the last 16 years, I'm physically ill from looking at that front end. It is, at best, a 400hp beast of an engine in an ugly ass package.

I can't be the only one here that thinks it...

J

[LeMansGTS]

There are TONS of cars I think are 1000 times better than the E36 M3, but the GTO is not one of them.

As a designer by trade for the last 16 years, I'm physically ill from looking at that front end. It is, at best, a 400hp beast of an engine in an ugly ass package.

I can't be the only one here that thinks it...

J

Again, that is subjective. The ACS badge in your grill is making me physically ill, but as a designer I figured you would know better than that.

[m3j0n]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6ApdU_ceIw

This my brother's GTO above accelerating to 130 mph. $2500 in mods = 423 whp

ooooh tell me more!! i jsut got an 06 gto and i would love to see what 423whp feels like in that car once i get to its stock power :)

edit: for some reason, my car looks FAR lower than your brother's... I was never told anything about any lowering modifications.

[bmwf106]

I would trade my car for a gto but I wouldnt pay the difference. Looks are boring and can be easily be mistaken for a rental car. The interiors are nice. Gto has a better interior than the E36. Its down fall is that it weighs almost 4k lbs. What a fat ass! You really dont need to compare the 2. They are so different. Like comparing a truck and a minivan. One is over 10yrs old and the other is new. Sure its quick in a straight line but there is a lot more to a car than that. The M3 is NOT a fast car in a straight line. But it is a fun car no doubt. I would take a used E46M over a GTO. I would rather have an STI. Maybe not but its close. Keep the M3 and buy a sport bike then call it a day.

[LeMansGTS]

double post

[LeMansGTS]

ooooh tell me more!! i jsut got an 06 gto and i would love to see what 423whp feels like in that car once i get to its stock power :)

edit: for some reason, my car looks FAR lower than your brother's... I was never told anything about any lowering modifications.

The car has HPE S2 cam, UDP, Pacesetter headers, off-road mids, magnaflow exhaust, K&N filter, and a Ported TB. 423whp and 373rwtq

The car has stock suspension but is sitting on 19" rims, the stocks are 18". It probably looks higher because of that.

[m3j0n]

I would take a used E46M over a GTO.

for sure, but you arent getting an 05/06 m3 with warranty for the same price as an 06 gto... there arent TOO many 2006 cars that seat 4 adults and have similar performance for mid twenties...you have to admit that.

[m3j0n]

The car has HPE S2 cam, UDP, Pacesetter headers, off-road mids, magnaflow exhaust, K&N filter, and a Ported TB. 423whp and 373rwtq

The car has stock suspension but is sitting on 19" rims, the stocks are 18". It probably looks higher because of that.

wow, very nice... yeah, mine has the optional factory 18"s and looks FAR LOWER. thanks for the info! Are you familiar with any of the popular lowering setups for the car? I would love to find out if mine has been lowered.

-jon

[LeMansGTS]

For the GTO they have what's called a Pedders pakage. Coilovers IIRC, and they run for about 2-3 thousand dollars. Not many suspension applications but pedders makes the car feel as though it's on rails.

[LeMansGTS]

I would trade my car for a gto but I wouldnt pay the difference. Looks are boring and can be easily be mistaken for a rental car. The interiors are nice. Gto has a better interior than the E36. Its down fall is that it weighs almost 4k lbs. What a fat ass! You really dont need to compare the 2. They are so different. Like comparing a truck and a minivan. One is over 10yrs old and the other is new. Sure its quick in a straight line but there is a lot more to a car than that. The M3 is NOT a fast car in a straight line. But it is a fun car no doubt. I would take a used E46M over a GTO. I would rather have an STI. Maybe not but its close. Keep the M3 and buy a sport bike then call it a day.

Its closer to 3700 to 3800 pounds actually.

[///Maniac]

Again, that is subjective. The ACS badge in your grill is making me physically ill, but as a designer I figured you would know better than that.

I'm gonna go waaaaay out on a limb and guess you're single.

Have a good night.

Jonathan

[bmwf106]

for sure, but you arent getting an 05/06 m3 with warranty for the same price as an 06 gto... there arent TOO many 2006 cars that seat 4 adults and have similar performance for mid twenties...you have to admit that.

Ok here's what you do. Go apply at BMW at a valet. Work a weekend. Then buy it at cost. Ask me how? My best friend is picking 1 up for $23k with a full warranty. They were asking $30-31k sticker. Done. Worth it to me. Really, how much is a GTO? It wont be worth crap in a few years. GM will make another crap car with a good motor and that will be the end of the GTO. I am not saying I hate the car because its not a total P.O.S. I just dont think its worth anything over $16k. If I had to choose straight up id pick the GTO. Only because its new.

[m3j0n]

For the GTO they have what's called a Pedders pakage. Coilovers IIRC, and they run for about 2-3 thousand dollars. Not many suspension applications but pedders makes the car feel as though it's on rails.

hmmm... maybe i have that and it would explain why i love the way the car handles... i cant believe the seller didnt mention it though. Its not a factory/dealer option, right? its aftermarket?

[bmwf106]

Its closer to 3700 to 3800 pounds actually.

I did say almost 4k. 3800 is ALMOST 4k. Either way its a fat ass!

[LeMansGTS]

I'm gonna go waaaaay out on a limb and guess you're single.

Have a good night.

Jonathan

Since I am not a designer, my opinion must mean nothing. Only you designer guys have the gift of determining aesthetic objectivity. Truthfully speaking,the badge does not bother me at all, but I knew that you would respond exactly in that manner. Thanks for confirming it.:buttrock

[LeMansGTS]

hmmm... maybe i have that and it would explain why i love the way the car handles... i cant believe the seller didnt mention it though. Its not a factory/dealer option, right? its aftermarket?

I am pretty sure it is aftermarket. I can't imagine that a seller would not mention that though. Perhaps your car is stock and just that good from the factory.

[Serious]

better compromise....


buy an e39 m5.

[bmwf106]

better compromise....


buy an e39 m5.

Great option but no warranty. It doesn't sound like hes into a 4dr. Id buy a sport bike if I wanted to go fast. M3's are NOT fast. Neither is a GTO.

[LeMansGTS]

My brother got his GTO brand new for $27,000 out the door with an extended warranty included (100K miles).
He already has 35K miles on the car and no issues whatsoever, the car has been perfect.
Warranty and reliability are some of the most important considerations when buying/switching cars. The M3 has none and the GTO does. GTO wins.

[BinhM3]

yea, we cant really compare a 10 year old car to a newer one. Of course the GTO would be bang for the bucks. Heir today gone tomorrow. the classy M3 look will always break necks. The GTO looks is not so hot. If you want power go for the GTO with the warranty its a no brainer. But enthusiasts like most of us are here would stick with the M3.

[LeMansGTS]

yea, we cant really compare a 10 year old car to a newer one. Of course the GTO would be bang for the bucks. Heir today gone tomorrow. the classy M3 look will always break necks. The GTO looks is not so hot. If you want power go for the GTO with the warranty its a no brainer. But enthusiasts like most of us are here would stick with the M3.

I agree with what you say and think that the E36 M3 still looks as good if not better than most new cars out there.

But not only BMW drivers are enthusiasts. GTO drivers are enthusiasts just like M3 drivers.

[QtheGenius]

Great option but no warranty. It doesn't sound like hes into a 4dr. Id buy a sport bike if I wanted to go fast. M3's are NOT fast. Neither is a GTO.

However you wrap your brain around it, 400HP is fast. Maybe not tricked out, highly modded fast, but for a stock car for less than 80 grand, it's the best dollar per horsepower you can buy for a car (crotch rockets are a different category). My roommate had a 06 GTO and it was fast, faster than anything I'd ever driven. I'd still prefer my e36 M3 over it just because it looks better and it's a lot better on gas.

[eurocarturboit]

+1... stock for stock, the gto will absolutely embarrass an e36 in almost every category. For the price, its a steal.

^ look at how new the GTO is ! it better be faster and its a v8 in there . car for car the e36 m3 hands down the better car . The body of the E36 M3 still get's looks every where i go and its almost ten years old .The GTO looks old but its not :help

[breden]

I think that there must be some significance assigned to the comparison of
the E36 M3 to a new car more than 10 years later.

I will agree that there are some newer cars that offer a better value
than a 10 year old M3. Some Japanese offerings come to mind, such as
Honda (and Acura), as well as Nissan (including Infiniti). The GTO as a
1960's era muscle car is one of my favorites! The new GTO, while powerful,
does not match up to the BMW in terms of build quality and affords less
success as a whole package.

How will the GTO's drivetrain, exterior, and interior components hold up 10
years down the line? 100,000 to 200,000 miles later? I'm not saying it will
fall apart, but many BMWs (E36 and earlier models) have shown their
durability to be excellent over time.

Buy and drive whatever will make you happiest! What makes me happy is
well thought out German engineering, and handling that puts a smile on my
face everyday.

[Volf]

better compromise....


buy an e39 m5.

winnAr!

[Volf]

I think that there must be some significance assigned to the comparison of
the E36 M3 to a new car more than 10 years later.

I will agree that there are some newer cars that offer a better value
than a 10 year old M3. Some Japanese offerings come to mind, such as
Honda (and Acura), as well as Nissan (including Infiniti). The GTO as a
1960's era muscle car is one of my favorites! The new GTO, while powerful,
does not match up to the BMW in terms of build quality and affords less
success as a whole package.

How will the GTO's drivetrain, exterior, and interior components hold up 10
years down the line? 100,000 to 200,000 miles later? I'm not saying it will
fall apart, but many BMWs (E36 and earlier models) have shown their
durability to be excellent over time.

Buy and drive whatever will make you happiest! What makes me happy is
well thought out German engineering, and handling that puts a smile on my
face everyday.


How will your M3's drivetrain be holding up 10 years from now? ;)

[breden]

Probably perfectly, although it will put me into major debt :)


How will your M3's drivetrain be holding up 10 years from now? ;)

[Eric98Sedan]

I have to chime in here as I've driven a couple GTOs....

Absolutley NO comparison to ANY BMW..... save for raw power. Those cars are complete piles of crap, imo. Losse, HEAVY and very numb...... and oh my god are they about the more boring looking cars on the road. No offense to any GTO owners out there, but come on guys, let's get real here.

The GTO is a pile of crap that will be a complete rattle trap in 2-3 years and will NEVER handle or feel like a BMW. The engineering is completely outclassed by BMW. No contest.

And frankly, they're not really THAT fast. The motors are lazy but very torquey. That's not to say that they ARE an incredible bang for the buck though. It's just that there's so much more to the driving experience than 'bang for buck'.... ya know?

I'd go C5 ZO6 WAAAAYYYYYY before I'd buy a GTO. Well, I'd never even consider a GTO.

[joenationwide]

Absolutley NO comparison to ANY BMW..... save for raw power. Those cars are HEAVY and very numb...... I'd go C5 ZO6 WAAAAYYYYYY before I'd buy a GTO. Well, I'd never even consider a GTO.

+1

The GTO will win a straight line, thats it. No contest E36 M3 > GTO in autox, and on the track the best single lap times are probably close (stock for stock), but I'm going to bet the GTO will not last a 25 min. session, at least not the brakes! (Ive seen 20+ M3s on track, but never a GTO).

And the E36 M3 is definately the better value (today's pricing). How can it not be? Roughly $10k vs. $25k. How is the GTO the better performance value?

And definately, a C5 Z06 >>>>>> GTO if we are talking performance value.

Not trying to down on the GTO, I think it is a good car for Pontiac, and I hope the G8 does well. I wish they weren't so heavy. But most people who are "enthusiasts" who buy the GTO are usually only concerned with straight line speed. The E36 M3 is a better chassis for handling from sheer mass alone.

[Volf]

Probably perfectly, although it will put me into major debt :)

:lol touche

[WytLytnyn]

Is the new "retro" Camaro going to be based on the same chassis?

[motorsports321]

If you had to ask then your in the wrong forum...

I'm not saying this because it's a GTO, but most members here are more "track" oriented. They like their cars to be able to perform on the track or at a local auto-x.

The M3 and GTO are very different cars in the aspect of what they are made for.

So if you thought about a GTO even once then I take it straight line performance is more your style, then by all means get one. Its not a bad car, I test drove one before, lots of power, but when you get to a turn you really feel the weight...

A little off topic but... I remember a guy posting here, who brought his friend with a 400+ whp trans am, to a track. That friend is now selling it to get an evo.

If you want power, I'd say a C5 zO6 is a good choice, best of both worlds.

[phantom3]

The GTO is definately one of the best newer car values out there . It always reminds me of a roided up cavalier though , but some people may even prefer the subtle look and not scream "zomg fastness racer boi coming through"

[MontyM3]

///M3 all the way!

[m3j0n]

If you want power, I'd say a C5 zO6 is a good choice, best of both worlds.

I sold my c5 z06 shortly after i got my gto. Although I loved the c5 z06 and it would lay the smack down on a z06, it doesnt have the benefits of the gto and is significantly more expensive...for an 06 gto with low mileage thats still under warranty, youre in the mid to high 20s.... to be in that price range with a c5 z06, you need to get an early model (not 405 hp) and high mileage and definitely out of warranty. As far as performance goes, the c5 z definitely beats it out, but the gto is far more comfortable and the warranty is worth its weight in gold. Based on these factors and the fact that the newer gto is significantly more expensive that the used c5 Z, i would ultimately buy that as a daily driver (and did)...btw, the gto gets better gas mileage and isnt fiberglass.

Truth be told, i do like the c5z better, but for a DD the GTO got me. I'm really lovign the z51 package on the standard c6 now. Its a great platform for some big power via f/I mods and has a much better interior than the c5 IMO.

[ppg4]

...the gto is far more comfortable and the warranty is worth its weight in gold.

The warranty has to be worth it's weight in gold, it's a GM! That extended power train warranty isn't going to do much for the interior bits and pieces that will start coming off and rattles that will develop over the next couple of years due to less robust initial build quality and poorer fit/finish. Go with big exhaust and suspension mods on that thing and I guarantee things will start loosening up pretty quickly,

The only GM products I would consider are their commercial grade trucks and any of the C6 Corvettes... though even those would require a pretty big leap of faith.

[joenationwide]

The warranty has to be worth it's weight in gold, it's a GM! That extended power train warranty isn't going to do much for the interior bits and pieces that will start coming off and rattles that will develop over the next couple of years due to less robust initial build quality and poorer fit/finish. Go with big exhaust and suspension mods on that thing and I guarantee things will start loosening up pretty quickly,

The only GM products I would consider are their commercial grade trucks and any of the C6 Corvettes... though even those would require a pretty big leap of faith.


Thats pretty harsh. I know its popular to beat on American OEMs [and a lot of time its justified] but is your comments based on public opinion, or does your experience support that? Im just asking because on this website a guy has owned both an M Coupe and C5Z06, and comparing the two he says he's had less trouble with the Z06.
http://www.lumenique.com/Cars/zo6/ZO6%20pg1.htm

[Eric98Sedan]

My GM trucks have been VERY reliable. Sure the 'overall' fit/finish isn't on par with a german vehicle, but they also cost half of what the germans do.

But let's stay on topic here....

The GTO is a fun car for sure. But it is in NO way comparable to a BMW. Not better, not worse, just totally different.

If you mostly want to cruise with tons of torque on tap, and you can get yourself around the looks, the GTO fits the bill. If, on the other hand, you want a 'true' performance car, there are better choices.

Oh, and MINT 02 to 04 C5Zs with sub 60k miles are going for 25K like crazy right now. They are, in my opinion, the absolute best used sporting car value out there currently.

[ppg4]

Thats pretty harsh. I know its popular to beat on American OEMs [and a lot of time its justified] but is your comments based on public opinion, or does your experience support that? Im just asking because on this website a guy has owned both an M Coupe and C5Z06, and comparing the two he says he's had less trouble with the Z06.
http://www.lumenique.com/Cars/zo6/ZO6%20pg1.htm

It's easy to ascribe negative opinions of American Built cars expressed on these websites as simple BWM fanboy stereotyping. In a lot of cases, it probably is. Personally, I've owned 5 BMW M's along with various assorted other cars... none of which have included a GM brand. You may say that automatically makes my comments biased or strictly based on public opinion, but my family has owned (and continues to own) countless GM vehicles... Yukons, Suburbans, C2500's, C3500's, Avalanches, Camaros, Corvettes (I can't even count how many Vette's have been in my family), Cavaliers, Caddys, a few nameless Buicks and even a couple of Oldsmobiles... all of which have been plagued with rattles and assorted QC issues. These cars are the very reason I won't buy GM products for use as a street driven vehicle. Granted, things have gotten better over at GM now that the Roger Smith impact has run it's course; the C6 Corvette is light years ahead of the old C5 and for that matter. the entire remaining product line, save the newer Caddy's.

Unfortunately, I'm not seeing a lot of that trickle down to the lower model lines and with the corporate profits in the crapper for the US auto industry, build quality is usually the first thing to go. Management starts by cutting corners on material and labor. The workers putting the cars together are more worried about impending layoffs and how they're going to pay for little Tommy's braces than they are about making sure that the window's correctly aligned in that snazzy new Saturn.

As far as the impact of harsh suspension and a free-flowing exhaust, all cars suffer side effects from these. It's just that with a lesser initial build quality seen in most American cars when compared to their internaional counterparts, the effects are usually accellerated and amplified.

It's also interesting that you chose an M Coupe as the baseline for comparison... it happens to be built in the US. I can tell you from personal experience that my Z4 M Coupe suffered from issues I never saw on my other M's.

It all boils down to personal tastes. If you dig ground pounding big V8 torque and are on a budget, then sure, the GTO makes sense. Just be aware there are trade offs: don't ever expect to handle like an M3; don't be surprised when things start rattling and little things start breaking and be prepared to take a bigger beating on resale value.

Cheers.

[omegaraceshop]

to be in that price range with a c5 z06, you need to get an early model (not 405 hp) and high mileage


drove a 2003 Z06 just recently. 35k miles and they were desperate to sell for $26k. beautiful Black on Black.

GTO looks sooo ugly. I do like the interiors on them though.

[roriii]

gtos are pretty sweet, but the m3 has an x factor that makes you come back for more and more. A gto might be faster, but i doubt gto owners make up excuses to drive their cars as much as e36 m3 owners do. by the way though gm=ftw

[Tuff Guy]

you are all nuts, id put my money on a gto over a stock e36 m3 any day, get off your hight horses. Anyone remember when they tested the 5.7L gto against the 350z and the 330izhp in a drag race, road course and braking? The 5.7l gto killed them in all tests, dont forget the 6.0L is much stronger. Gimme a break, the e36 m3 is about as fast as an 07 camry not an 06 GTO, get over your 10 year old car lol.

[LeMansGTS]

you are all nuts, id put my money on a gto over a stock e36 m3 any day, get off your hight horses. Anyone remember when they tested the 5.7L gto against the 350z and the 330izhp in a drag race, road course and braking? The 5.7l gto killed them in all tests, dont forget the 6.0L is much stronger. Gimme a break, the e36 m3 is about as fast as an 07 camry not an 06 GTO, get over your 10 year old car lol.

Seriously. Like I said before, my car only has 19k miles on it and a supercharger which is why I prefer it to my brother's GTO. I also prefer the way it looks. In terms of performance, though:

Most of the people here have M3s nearing the 100k mark with worn out interiors, sagging glove boxes, ticking valves and vanos units, and worn out suspensions...more likely than not an LS2 GTO will hand you your asses in the straights (that's a certainty) and in the corners as well.

[shaggsM3]

Just keep the M and drop in the 6.0l LS2

Best of both worlds...USA muscle+European handling=Pure Secks

[bmwf106]

you are all nuts, id put my money on a gto over a stock e36 m3 any day, get off your hight horses. Anyone remember when they tested the 5.7L gto against the 350z and the 330izhp in a drag race, road course and braking? The 5.7l gto killed them in all tests, dont forget the 6.0L is much stronger. Gimme a break, the e36 m3 is about as fast as an 07 camry not an 06 GTO, get over your 10 year old car lol.

I couldnt help but comment again. 1st an E36 is 10yrs old and depending on how you look at it you will see it 2 ways. 1, its like comparing an E36 M to a Grand National. A GN was the shit for its time. So was the E36. Compare the 2 and obviously the E36 is better. But the GN is 10 yrs older than the E36 M. Or 2, in todays market you can buy 3 M3's for the price of 1 GTO. F the warranty. If something breaks, take it off your other 2 cars. seriously now....I have 106k on my car and I still like it more every time I drive it. I find it very hard to believe you will want that GTO over 100k. Speed is all relative. You get used to it and someone else will always be faster. I said it already, if I had to pick between the 2 I would go GTO, only because its new but I wouldnt pay anymore for it. Cost and age aside, M3 for me. Sport bikes are the way to go for the speed rush. And to the guy who thinks an E39 M5 is fast, you made me laugh. Fast compared to what? I had an Accord that ran a 13 flat. A 90 accord! Come on man. That accord would own my M3. Just get what makes you happy and who cares what I say.

[LeMansGTS]

I couldnt help but comment again. 1st an E36 is 10yrs old and depending on how you look at it you will see it 2 ways. 1, its like comparing an E36 M to a Grand National. A GN was the shit for its time. So was the E36. Compare the 2 and obviously the E36 is better. But the GN is 10 yrs older than the E36 M. Or 2, in todays market you can buy 3 M3's for the price of 1 GTO. F the warranty. If something breaks, take it off your other 2 cars. seriously now....I have 106k on my car and I still like it more every time I drive it. I find it very hard to believe you will want that GTO over 100k. Speed is all relative. You get used to it and someone else will always be faster. I said it already, if I had to pick between the 2 I would go GTO, only because its new but I wouldnt pay anymore for it. Cost and age aside, M3 for me. Sport bikes are the way to go for the speed rush. And to the guy who thinks an E39 M5 is fast, you made me laugh. Fast compared to what? I had an Accord that ran a 13 flat. A 90 accord! Come on man. That accord would own my M3. Just get what makes you happy and who cares what I say.

I can understand the aesthetic argument. That is the reason I have an M3 and not a GTO (which was an option for me). Even though the M3 is over a decade old, it still looks sexy to me. Mine only has 19k miles though.

I can understand a sentimental attachment to the M3 as well. What I can't understand are some of the other arguments.

1) The M3 is the best handling car in America, and it will be that way forever. Most people here think the M3 can outhandle the C5 Corvette, C6 Corvette, and anything else with a GM badge simply because Jeremy Clarkson said so. Despite the fact that the GTO weighs 600 pounds more than the M3 does not mean the M3 should stomp it in the corners, ESPECIALLY not the higher mileage M3s on this forum. NO YOU WILL NOT TAKE THEM IN THE TWISTIES!

2) At least you drove home in a BMW. Yea, a ten year old BMW...Does that BMW badge add another 20K to the value of your car?

3) On this forum speed is not relative, in general. You would have had him in the twisties is a common reply to many drag contest losses. On this forum, people live and die by those words, so when some other car threatens this supremacy people get pissed.

[ppg4]

I can understand the aesthetic argument. That is the reason I have an M3 and not a GTO (which was an option for me). Even though the M3 is over a decade old, it still looks sexy to me. Mine only has 19k miles though.


Interesting,.. you've mentioned the fact that your M3 has only 19,000 miles on it like three times in this thread, I think we get the picture. I don't mean to be rude, but every time you mention it I keep have flashbacks to the 40 Year Old Virgin and all of those toys still in the packaging.



I can understand a sentimental attachment to the M3 as well. What I can't understand are some of the other arguments.

1) The M3 is the best handling car in America, and it will be that way forever. Most people here think the M3 can outhandle the C5 Corvette, C6 Corvette, and anything else with a GM badge simply because Jeremy Clarkson said so. Despite the fact that the GTO weighs 600 pounds more than the M3 does not mean the M3 should stomp it in the corners, ESPECIALLY not the higher mileage M3s on this forum. NO YOU WILL NOT TAKE THEM IN THE TWISTIES!


A properly set up E36 M3 will absolutely destroy a GTO in the twisties. A properly prepared E36 M3 will beat up on most Corvettes unless driven by someone with an extremely high level of skill. How do I know? Let's see... maybe the GTO I passed on multiple occasions less than two weeks ago at WSIR, maybe the plentitutde of C5 and C6 Vette's I've passed in the past year on various race tracks on the west coast. I'm no Michael Schumacher, so it must be the car that's making the difference.

Look at like this, when you Auto X, how do E46 M3 times stack up to E36 M3 times? At the BMW CCA Auto X's I've been to, the E36's are always the cars setting the fastest times... why? Becuase they're lighter, better handling cars, period. Since you're into caps lock to make points... YOU CAN'T FIGHT THE LAWS OF PHYSICS.
I've got the Top Time and M-Modified trophies to prove it.



2) At least you drove home in a BMW. Yea, a ten year old BMW...Does that BMW badge add another 20K to the value of your car?


I don't know how many people have actually responded with this line of reasoning. It seems like you're distilling all of the arguments regarding build quality and reliability, which you have notably chosen not to address, into this snobified pile of BS. Does the BMW badge add 20k to the price tag of a ten year old car? Clearly, no. But if you buy a BMW for 12k and the Goat for 28k what I will guarantee is that over any given amount of time, two, five or ten+ years, the M3 will be worth a higher percentage of it's purchase price. Proof of this... check KBB. Check leasing rates for BMW vs GM cars (all of which are based on residual value).



3) On this forum speed is not relative, in general. You would have had him in the twisties is a common reply to many drag contest losses. On this forum, people live and die by those words, so when some other car threatens this supremacy people get pissed.

This sounds like argument 1, with a bit of arm chair psycho analysis thrown in. Am I pissed that someone thinks that a GTO is better than an E36 M3? No, for two reasons... first, everyone's entitled to their opinion and what you think really means about as much to me as what you had for breakfast this morning; it has absolutely no bearing on me. Second, the whole concept that a GTO is a superior package to the E36 M3 is just plain amusing... in fact, the whole idea that the M3 is being compared to a car that was designed a decade later is a flattering testament of how timeless these cars really are.

Your strongest argument revolves around a comparison of a relatively new, warrantied GTO vs a 10-14 year old E36 and the fact that after 10-14 years that they're bound to be beat up. However, if you were to make it a true apples to apples comparison and spend the cost differential between the two (10-18k) on repairing and upgrading an M3, those arguments evaporate almost as quickly as the ones above.

Again, to each their own... if you think the Goat is so tits, I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who'd take that 19k mile M3 off of your hands. PM me if interested.

Cheers.

[joenationwide]

It's easy to ascribe negative opinions of American Built cars expressed on these websites as simple BWM fanboy stereotyping. In a lot of cases, it probably is. Personally, I've owned 5 BMW M's along with various assorted other cars... none of which have included a GM brand. You may say that automatically makes my comments biased or strictly based on public opinion, but my family has owned (and continues to own) countless GM vehicles... Yukons, Suburbans, C2500's, C3500's, Avalanches, Camaros, Corvettes (I can't even count how many Vette's have been in my family), Cavaliers, Caddys, a few nameless Buicks and even a couple of Oldsmobiles... all of which have been plagued with rattles and assorted QC issues. These cars are the very reason I won't buy GM products for use as a street driven vehicle. Granted, things have gotten better over at GM now that the Roger Smith impact has run it's course; the C6 Corvette is light years ahead of the old C5 and for that matter. the entire remaining product line, save the newer Caddy's.

Unfortunately, I'm not seeing a lot of that trickle down to the lower model lines and with the corporate profits in the crapper for the US auto industry, build quality is usually the first thing to go. Management starts by cutting corners on material and labor. The workers putting the cars together are more worried about impending layoffs and how they're going to pay for little Tommy's braces than they are about making sure that the window's correctly aligned in that snazzy new Saturn.

As far as the impact of harsh suspension and a free-flowing exhaust, all cars suffer side effects from these. It's just that with a lesser initial build quality seen in most American cars when compared to their internaional counterparts, the effects are usually accellerated and amplified.

It's also interesting that you chose an M Coupe as the baseline for comparison... it happens to be built in the US. I can tell you from personal experience that my Z4 M Coupe suffered from issues I never saw on my other M's.

It all boils down to personal tastes. If you dig ground pounding big V8 torque and are on a budget, then sure, the GTO makes sense. Just be aware there are trade offs: don't ever expect to handle like an M3; don't be surprised when things start rattling and little things start breaking and be prepared to take a bigger beating on resale value.

Cheers.

Fair enough. And no question the attention to detail spent on the C5 vette didn't trickle down to the lesser models. Im not praising/bashing GM or BMW. Just playing devils advocate. I didn't chose the Mcoupe to compare to the Z06, the author of the website did, I just found it interesting. Good point about the Z3, Z4s being built in USA, uh oh I hope the Spartanburg plant isn't dragging BMW down! As for GM, they've killed their image with poor quality from the 70s, 80s, and 90s. Lets hope they really are making significant improvements.

[LeMansGTS]

Interesting,.. you've mentioned the fact that your M3 has only 19,000 miles on it like three times in this thread, I think we get the picture. I don't mean to be rude, but every time you mention it I keep have flashbacks to the 40 Year Old Virgin and all of those toys still in the packaging.



A properly set up E36 M3 will absolutely destroy a GTO in the twisties. A properly prepared E36 M3 will beat up on most Corvettes unless driven by someone with an extremely high level of skill. How do I know? Let's see... maybe the GTO I passed on multiple occasions less than two weeks ago at WSIR, maybe the plentitutde of C5 and C6 Vette's I've passed in the past year on various race tracks on the west coast. I'm no Michael Schumacher, so it must be the car that's making the difference.

Look at like this, when you Auto X, how do E46 M3 times stack up to E36 M3 times? At the BMW CCA Auto X's I've been to, the E36's are always the cars setting the fastest times... why? Becuase they're lighter, better handling cars, period. Since you're into caps lock to make points... YOU CAN'T FIGHT THE LAWS OF PHYSICS.
I've got the Top Time and M-Modified trophies to prove it.



I don't know how many people have actually responded with this line of reasoning. It seems like you're distilling all of the arguments regarding build quality and reliability, which you have notably chosen not to address, into this snobified pile of BS. Does the BMW badge add 20k to the price tag of a ten year old car? Clearly, no. But if you buy a BMW for 12k and the Goat for 28k what I will guarantee is that over any given amount of time, two, five or ten+ years, the M3 will be worth a higher percentage of it's purchase price. Proof of this... check KBB. Check leasing rates for BMW vs GM cars (all of which are based on residual value).



This sounds like argument 1, with a bit of arm chair psycho analysis thrown in. Am I pissed that someone thinks that a GTO is better than an E36 M3? No, for two reasons... first, everyone's entitled to their opinion and what you think really means about as much to me as what you had for breakfast this morning; it has absolutely no bearing on me. Second, the whole concept that a GTO is a superior package to the E36 M3 is just plain amusing... in fact, the whole idea that the M3 is being compared to a car that was designed a decade later is a flattering testament of how timeless these cars really are.

Your strongest argument revolves around a comparison of a relatively new, warrantied GTO vs a 10-14 year old E36 and the fact that after 10-14 years that they're bound to be beat up. However, if you were to make it a true apples to apples comparison and spend the cost differential between the two (10-18k) on repairing and upgrading an M3, those arguments evaporate almost as quickly as the ones above.

Again, to each their own... if you think the Goat is so tits, I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who'd take that 19k mile M3 off of your hands. PM me if interested.

Cheers.

I never said that a properly set up M3 would not beat up on a GTO on a track. I would be delusional to think that. The original poster was vague as to why he wanted to trade in the M3 for the GTO, but I suspect it's because the M3 is old and out of warranty. It is not the car it was back in 1995-1999.

As previously mentioned, my brother picked up his 2006 GTO and a 100,000 mile warranty for $27000 out of the door. That is one hell of a deal. The car already has 35,000 miles and it has not yet had a problem of any kind.

I agree with you that it's unfair comparing a new GTO against a 10 year old M3; and that if the M3's suspension was refreshed it would be the better handling car, no question. But the money spent refreshing a ten year old car (especially with aftermarket components), can be very costly as well.

If the seller intends to track/auto-x the car, then the M3 is a better choice. Why bother putting a new, warrantied car in the track? If he wants a reliable daily driver that is covered by warranty to 100K miles and has a bulletproof LS2 engine, then the GTO is the better choice. You're less likely to be Michael Schumacher in the GTO but more likely to be John Force. To each his own.

If it were me, I would buy a new car and not be concerned with the M3s maintenance for another 10 years. The E36s resale value after 100,000 miles has plummeted recently, and although it may not be bad as the GTOs, I can honestly say that I would prefer not to deal with the hassle of maintaining the M3 and would by a new car.
Fair enough?

[peteraq1]

I'm the original poster that started this mudslinging contest. I asked the question because, I knew you guys have strong opinions about BMW's. I'm retired military, spend 9 years out of 21 years between Germany, England and Italy. I've always owned european cars VW's, BMW's, and Audi's.

I purchased an 87 Buick Grand National, because I always wanted one in the garage for weekend cruising. Besides you don't see them at every stop light. I also have a 03 Silverado SS, that I tow my autocross car (95 GTi Vr6).
The truck has never had a problem what so ever.

Originally got the M3 to be an autcross/HDPE car, but it was in to good a condition to torture it that way. Nothing beats the way it handles at "The Rock" or "VIR".

After you guys voiced your opinions so adamantly for the M3, I think I should continue to drive it.

Granted the exterior of the GTO leaves something to be desired, nothing a Vauxhall Monaro front end from England won't cure. The interior is far superior to most American built cars. The mediocre handling can be cured with springs shocks and swaybars. Thats no more then all of us BMW owners haven't already done anyway.

I'm just a car guy at heart, I'm on the Silveradoss forum, VWvortex forum and the Turbobuick forum.

[99E36M]

LS1 and LS2 motors are awesome, period. Cheap thrills, that's what the GTO wants to be. As a complete package the GTO is much better than the Camaro ever was. I've never driven either. I would assume though that the feel in an E36 is something that no bolt-on will ever be able to replicate. Even with aftermarket suspension and sticky tires turning high G's it probably doesn't communicate the fine details like an E36 can.

There are lots of awesome cars to own. I'd love an LS1 something someday, but for now the E36 M3 is a great vehicle for a sport cars enthusiast. It isn't worldly fast, it doesn't look like a supercar, and it isn't cheap, but it is one hell of a drivers car.

[m3j0n]

just found out my gto has the pedders, front/rear adjustable swaybars, urethane bushings and modded exahsut... :) No wonder i love the way my car handles :) thanks for the tip!

[GG///M3]

just found out my gto has the pedders, front/rear adjustable swaybars, urethane bushings and modded exahsut... :) No wonder i love the way my car handles :) thanks for the tip!

Without all that it would feel like a buick. Btw which year did you pick up. I drove the non-400hp version, and the stock exhaust sounded unreal. Also the steering wheel felt like something of out kids car fisherprice.

[m3j0n]

06.. ;)

[joenationwide]

drove a 2003 Z06 just recently. 35k miles and they were desperate to sell for $26k. beautiful Black on Black.

GTO looks sooo ugly. I do like the interiors on them though.

Dude, I drove one too! What'd you think?

[LeMansGTS]

just found out my gto has the pedders, front/rear adjustable swaybars, urethane bushings and modded exahsut... :) No wonder i love the way my car handles :) thanks for the tip!

That's awesome. I should convince my brother to get the kit.

[Eric98Sedan]

Dude, I drove one too! What'd you think?

I think the C5Z is my next car.

[joenationwide]

I think the C5Z is my next car.

Thats been my plan for about the last year. After driving the C5Z I still have a lot of respect for my M3. Im pretty confident my M3 can beat a stock C5Z at an autox and maybe on track (have done it, but dont know the skill of the C5Z driver), but the C5Z has much higher speed and grip potential. But getting used to the size and driving position of the C5Z will be the hardest part IMHO.

[bmwf106]

There was 1 point that was not made in all of this.....As E36 M3 owners its great to think that our cars still rival cars today. Trendy cars like the 350z will come and go but there will always be a strong following for the E36 and E30. I just hope BMW continues to make driver oriented cars.

[jskibo]

It always reminds me of a roided up cavalier though ,


Funny ....roid was the thought that came to my mind too when my friend drove his into the lot for the first time :D

[Z Driver]

You have an intercooled Grand National. Screw the GTO.

[MagnumX]

very fast
but very ugly

exactly

[Eric98Sedan]

There was 1 point that was not made in all of this.....As E36 M3 owners its great to think that our cars still rival cars today. Trendy cars like the 350z will come and go but there will always be a strong following for the E36 and E30. I just hope BMW continues to make driver oriented cars.

Exactly! Great point!

Cars like the GTO and 350Z are 'hot' at the moment.... but the moment will pass.

The hardcore BMW's from the past (E30, E36, E46) will always be hot.... because they're 'true' drivers cars. Plus they just look so damn good.

Don't get me wrong, I think owning a GTO would be fun.... for about 6 months.... at which point the sizzle will fade fast.

[houstonm3]

IMO GTO is one ugly looking car, there's more to a car than HP.
An E36 M3 gets a lot more attention than a GTO, inspite of being over 10 years old.
A GTO looks too mundane, too boring and on top of that you can rent one for $39 a day.
I have driven a rental GTO, a nice car for $39 a day, but would never buy one.
For a little bit more i'd buy the E46 M3, you'd feel an obvious difference how a bemer delivers 333 BHP as compared to GTO's 400, most American manufacturers are known to lie about HP, like Mustang GT500, actually only produces 450 HP, Ford confessed to lying about HP but never changed the name to GT450.
Besides GTO is too bulky and heavy.