Keep 99m3 or get evo8 [Archive] - Bimmerforums

luckee2bhere

04-23-2003, 09:25 PM

MAN thats a tough choice. I dont know what I would do in your position. I think the EVO is an AWESOME car. The only thing I dont like are the rear tailights. HA! I would be the only person with an EVO with regular 'non euro' tails. The lines of the car are tite and I like everything about it. It definitely could whoop some ass with little money. The M3 with a Turbo would be AWESOME but I definitely think to get it right you would be spending more money than the EVO.

What the one dude said about the STI is prolly true. I have heard alot from people I trust that the STI is going to be WAY better than the EVO and its not just cause of the HP difference. Alot to do with the way the diffs are set up I think.

So IMO....M3 turbo is cooler...EVO is new and easy to be a KING OF THE STREET (which noone here can say they wouldnt enjoy)

DSK M3/4

04-24-2003, 08:54 AM

Originally posted by black99
I can get the evo for 30k. My car is in great shape so I could get probably 27k for it. The evo can go 12's for a grand.
don't forget tax, title and destination charges for the evo. that's a few grand closer to an AA turbo right there.

black99

04-24-2003, 09:25 AM

I can get it for 30 with taxes and etc because I know the dealer. AA turbo is way too much. I think I will keep the car for now.

Boomer

04-24-2003, 02:11 PM

IN MY OPINION: (<---bold and underline that)

evo 8 - ugly, riced out, for ages 16-18 y.o., UGLY. only race oriented car (nothing else)

STI - not as half as good looking/classy as the M3 though better than the Evo, for ages 17-20, only race oriented car (nothing else)

i also heard about turbos that turbocharged engines age much faster than non turbocharged, especially when you mod it and try to get more preformance out of the stock turbo which you are?

exept speed, both the STI and EVO have nothing on the M3 (IMO)
m3 looks better for sure!
i personally would take a 95 M3 with 70K miles on it than both 2004 ralleigh/ricer Race cars...

binh

04-24-2003, 02:41 PM

i have a friend with a 4g63 running 11's with 130k on the clock...

SeattleE30///M3

04-24-2003, 03:53 PM

EVO VIII all the way!

Disclaimer: I predominately look at a cars performance and how the driving experience appeals to the driver. As for the looks, I think the EVO VIII can look pretty good with EVO VII rear taillights and some EVO VII or EVO VI front bumpers. Other than that, I'll be in the car smiling as I drive, I couldn't care less what other think of the EVO VIII b/c it is not that ugly (atleast compared to new BMWs :mdrbig ) and I don't have to look at it as I drive.

The EVO VIII is a raw, pure, rallye bred homologation car. That is what all M3s should be, but post-E30 M3, BMW owners have not had a chance to drive such a raw & pure performance car due to the ultra-liberal translation of new touring car rules.

With the EVO VIII, you have arguably the best turn-in of any car available in the U.S., including ferrari's. I heard that after a spin in a EVO VII, it can make the steering wheel of a Ferrari 360 or E46M3 feel almost sluggish. Plus the EVO VIII is just a monster beast!!!! Just put down on grand on a exhaust, afc, and a chip, and you have 30+ hp. Plus, you really don't have to super finesse the car to drive fast. You can wildly swing the rear end around a lot of cars and still whoop on most cars on the track.

If you want well rounded performance, luxury, and Image, go for the M3.

PBalla

04-24-2003, 03:59 PM

wrx sti, check my thread

SeattleE30///M3

04-24-2003, 05:27 PM

STi is cool as well. I was just replying to the original post. Hopefully the evo VIII FQ-300 w/ ACD comes to the U.S. I'd take the FQ-300 over the STi or wait until the STi comes out.

Rallye STi all get 2.0, so I'd like to see how bulletproof the 2.5 turbo is.

Tommy Vercetti

04-24-2003, 08:29 PM

I was considering the EVO until I drove one last week. The car is and always will be a Mitubishi. It has a blah interior and has no class to it. It feels like it is just thrown together. Its fast but my M has tons more feel and feedback. If you are interested in accel go find a old muscle car like a 455 Olds or something. I swear that Momo steering wheel is a cheap knockoff, the only thing that looks good on the car are the Brembo brakes those red calipers are sweet. I agree with the thought that it is a car that will appeal to the ricer crowd "doh" but it will never have the feel, luxury, smell, and style of the M.

M3corey

04-24-2003, 08:32 PM

SeattleE30///M3

04-24-2003, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
I was considering the EVO until I drove one last week. The car is and always will be a Mitubishi. It has a blah interior and has no class to it. It feels like it is just thrown together. Its fast but my M has tons more feel and feedback. If you are interested in accel go find a old muscle car like a 455 Olds or something. I swear that Momo steering wheel is a cheap knockoff, the only thing that looks good on the car are the Brembo brakes those red calipers are sweet. I agree with the thought that it is a car that will appeal to the ricer crowd "doh" but it will never have the feel, luxury, smell, and style of the M.

Even taking the entire asian geographic region out of the picture, it is utterly amazing the different perceptions that US and Europe have on Japanese cars, or maybe it is just the BMW boards????:az: :dunno

It seems that Europe embraces the EVO and STi with open arms, readily comparing their performance to supercars, while in the US, everything gets blurred by "Rice" goggles. WTF is Rice anyways? Half the BMWs on this board could be called rice. Especially when half the new bmw owners have way more show than go. These new cars coming out reminds of the days of the Audi Quattro, Lancia Delta Integrale, E30 M3, and the MB 190E EVOII. Today, I'd honestly be driving an EVO or STi over any sold out Bangled BMW (with the exception of the E46M3 which needs to still lose 300 pounds, dial in more front camber, and get rid of the staggered tire sizes.) BMW has lost its soul. Corporate doesn't even know what to do anymore. Has anyone seen the dreadful spy shots of the next 3 series???

BTW, if you only buy the EVO just b/c of the acceleration, your a moron. The suspension on the EVO is top notch! as well as the traction. Just wait till the FQ-300 reaches our shores :chix

THe EVO VIII or STi will be all over BMW ///M like white on Rice. If BMW doesn't change, there waiting for a rude awakening over the next model cycle.

M3corey

04-24-2003, 09:00 PM

well the e36 m3 is old man .. been out for 7 years .. u cant compare them to the cars just coming out now ??

M3corey

04-24-2003, 09:02 PM

also .. i just love the interior of the m3 .. my friend has a pretty fast wrx .. but i just dont like the interior at all ..

SeattleE30///M3

04-24-2003, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by E\/O
well the e36 m3 is old man .. been out for 7 years .. u cant compare them to the cars just coming out now ??

Agreed. E36 M3 is great when it was out and still is.

But, you can pretty much compare the EVO VIII and STi to any current performance cars out today.

LinearX

04-24-2003, 10:44 PM

All I can say is this: Remember the slew of fairly inexpensive Japanese turbo sports cars from the late 80s / mid 90s (when most of them died)? How many survived the dip in the sports car market anything like the M cars did? Supra, 300ZX and the RX-7 (somewhat) are known to most. All but the 300 were faster than the M to 60 (stock, please don't raise the 'mods' argument because you destroy any baseline).

Their performance embarrassed many a supercar for a fraction of the price, but did it really matter? Sports cars are on the rise again but remember that the market works in cycles. Doesn't the Evo remind you subtly of the 3000GT? Supercar feature-packed and yet what do we think of it today?

Consider how Toyota is taking a different approach with the Supra this time around. Is there something they know about the market we don't? Just something to consider if you get into this car.

I do believe the Japanese can build a great sports car, but usually with some glaring faults that hurt the vehicle over time. I hope the long-awaited Evo is everything it was hoped to be because it will raise the price/performance bar for everyone, including BMW who tends to tack on an extra fee for the balance of their vehicle. BMW is basically a German Buick across the pond, but they know very well how to make a car like the Evo, they just don't. Ever wonder why? I do.

Uncle_Git

04-25-2003, 04:07 PM

First question you should ask is what are your requirements ?

For pure performance the new generation of rally rockets will eat an M3 alive, but they can't match the fit, finnish and comfort of the BMW.

It's a question of degrees - how hard core are you about performance ?

If you want the fastest / best handling car out there you may as well go the whole hog and pick up a Caterham Superlight R. Forget Luxuries like carpet, AC , radio and doors with that bad boy - but the performance will make your eyeballs pop.

Evo / STi is extremely performance oriented - but it has the little things like carpets and doors that some people seem to require of a car these days ;-)

M3 is more towards the luxury end of the spectrum while still having a performance edge and bite to it. It'll haul 4 people in comfort - but you'll get taken to the cleaners by an Evo or caterham in the twisties.

Where on the chart do YOU fall ?

[edit: cleaned up mountin dew driven typo's]

Uncle_Git

04-25-2003, 04:11 PM

Oh and to the people name checking the Delta Integrale , Quattro's and their ilk -

:clap: :clap: :clap:

:alright

Good to see some people with culture and class on the boards ;-)

"There are two kinds of rally driver - those who have rolled and those who will roll."

SeattleE30///M3

04-25-2003, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by Uncle_Git
First question you should ask is what are your requirements ?

For pure performance the new generation of rally rockets will eat an M3 alive, but they can't match the fit and finnish and comfort of the BMW.

It's a question of degrees - how hard core are you about performance ?

If you want the fastest / best handling car out there you may we all go the whole hog and pick up a Caterham Superlight R. Forget Luxuries like carpet, AC , radio and doors with that bad boy - but the performance will make you eyeballs pop.

Evo / STi is extremely performance oriented - but it has the little things like carpets and doors that some people seem to require of a car ;-)

M3 is more towards the luxury end of the spectrum while still having a performance edge and bite to it. It'll haul 4 people in comfort - but you'll get taken to the cleaners by an Evo or caterham in the twisties.

Where on the chart do YOU fall ?

Amen :clap: :clap: :clap:

We're in agreement 100% and I fall squarely in the middle category, atleast until I can afford a car in each category :buttrock

///M_Wraith

04-25-2003, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by Boomer
IN MY OPINION: (<---bold and underline that)

evo 8 - ugly, riced out, for ages 16-18 y.o., UGLY. only race oriented car (nothing else)

STI - not as half as good looking/classy as the M3 though better than the Evo, for ages 17-20, only race oriented car (nothing else)

i also heard about turbos that turbocharged engines age much faster than non turbocharged, especially when you mod it and try to get more preformance out of the stock turbo which you are?

exept speed, both the STI and EVO have nothing on the M3 (IMO)
m3 looks better for sure!
i personally would take a 95 M3 with 70K miles on it than both 2004 ralleigh/ricer Race cars...

Most Evos and STis are in the 30K + range. Not typically driven by 16-18 yos

SeattleE30///M3

04-25-2003, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by ///M_Wraith
Most Evos and STis are in the 30K + range. Not typically driven by 16-18 yos

True True. But on the other side, it seems like half the people on this forum driving 30K to 60K BMW's are 16-18 years old.

tylerblue

04-25-2003, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by Bill
Hello........... Check YO messages man.

Evo's are for people with small dicks !!

Woah :eek: them is fightin' words.

I would keep the 99 M3 in my opinion, but that is only because M3's of all generations are my favorite cars. Evo's are SWEET though!! You can't go wrong. Good luck with that bro.

--------------
Tyler Blue
Blue Ltd. Clothing

325ISjigga

04-25-2003, 10:11 PM

Am i missing something with the Evo VIII? its looks are pretty disgusting, IMO, the performance is nothing to piss your pants for(271hp?, the STi will have more and the M3 is only like 31 and 40something behind in hp and tq), and its interior is no where near the M3. so how come people are saying its such an "AWESOME" and badass car? :dunno

P.S. sorry if i have offended someone and/or their car.

Boomer

04-25-2003, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by ///M_Wraith
Most Evos and STis are in the 30K + range. Not typically driven by 16-18 yos

i didnt say that they are driven by 16-18 yos, i said that they appeal more to this age group.

///M_Wraith

04-25-2003, 10:26 PM

It's all good.:D

SeattleE30///M3

04-25-2003, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by 325ISjigga
IMO, the performance is nothing to piss your pants for(271hp?, the STi will have more and the M3 is only like 31 and 40something behind in hp and tq), so how come people are saying its such an "AWESOME" and badass car? :dunno

P.S. sorry if i have offended someone and/or their car.

HP and TQ do not tell the whole story. Power/Weight Ratio is vastly more important than just engine output. The Lotus elise with 140HP can beat a E46M3 with 333hp around a track w/o a significantly long straightaway.

And there is a big difference between performance and going fast in a straight line. If you think performance is just about HP, get a Mustang or a Corvette. I'm pretty sure a good driver can lap a EVO VIII around a tight track faster than an E46///M3.

325ISjigga

04-25-2003, 10:36 PM

the Evo is heavier than the M3. im sure the evo handles better than the M3 but by how much? enough to sacrifice luxury and comfort AND have to put in extra money to have it handle better? why not just take that money that it costs to go to the EVO and get some suspension mods. and i dont particularly believe that the EVO has better turn-in that a ferrari and every other car available in the US. chances are if youve test driven a EVO, you havent test driven a Ferari.

black99

04-26-2003, 01:15 AM

I am leanin more towards keeping the m3 because its more mature and etc. The evo is nice but interior sucks and rear is ugly. Still on the fence though cuz the evo does handle better then the m3 and for a few bucks you can have it going 11's.

negari

04-26-2003, 03:16 AM

keep the ///M or save up for E46 M3 =)

FiKtIOn

04-26-2003, 12:19 PM

Originally posted by SeattleE30///M3
True True. But on the other side, it seems like half the people on this forum driving 30K to 60K BMW's are 16-18 years old.

I'm 16, and you'd be quite surprised how many people on these boards are 21+...Kinda funny when I get in an argument with someone on the boards, and I win, then realize they are over 30..

Originally posted by Boomer
i didnt say that they are driven by 16-18 yos, i said that they appeal more to this age group.

I disagree with you completely. I think the EVO VIII is atrocious. The last GOOD looking evo was the EVO V, and POSSIBLY the EVO VI. That's a pretty broad generalization considering you most likely aren't 16-18.

All people over 30 eat is prunes and cottage cheese.

wannaBMthree

04-26-2003, 01:18 PM

I dont care if the EVO8 does 8's in the quater mile, and goes 0-60 in 2 seconds. That thing is damn ugly and cheap looking!

KEEP THE ///M

SeattleE30///M3

04-26-2003, 01:40 PM

I'm 16, and you'd be quite surprised how many people on these boards are 21+...Kinda funny when I get in an argument with someone on the boards, and I win, then realize they are over 30..

Actually that's the really scary part. When I look at all the retarded posts and then I realize that the people posting the stuff aren't 16. :eek:

I guess one good thing about the EVO VIII compared to the E36///M3, is that you won't see many mom's and non-enthusiasts in a EVO VIII. There are just way too many E36///M3's out and they have lost their uniqueness.

Get a E36M3 if you want to keep the bimmer image. If you want performance, get the EVO VIII.

Thirst is everything, image is nothing.:devillook

RobertFontaine

04-26-2003, 01:58 PM

I'm not 16, I just like to remember being 16. The bar has been raised pretty significantly since the e36 m3 in the area of horsepower and torque for small sedans but handling and weight seems to be going in the opposite direction the e30 was a better handling car than the e36 and the e36 is a better handling car than the e46. Anyone ever thought that maybe, just maybe, bmw is more interested in the image buyer than the enthusiast. It makes me really happy to see as many manufacturers as possible enter the ralley/road car space. I'd like my next car to impress me as much as my 328 has as I've been learning to drive it. I want to be blown away by my next car. If hyundai is the one to do it, I'm there.

Yup, sometimes I just like to press the go pedal, spin the tires, chatter through a corner and feel the wind in my hair. When do I get to be 16 again?

luxautodetail

04-26-2003, 02:37 PM

what... mitsu-shiti... come on guys.. who goes from a bmw M car to a mitsu-shiti... whoever says evo is crazy.. plus that car has turbo.. you NA.. if u want to turbo yours.. u will smoke the evo..... whats up in ur head man..??? M3 bottom line

Boomer

04-26-2003, 11:47 PM

thats what im saying.... if you go from a BMW to a mitsushitti then you are not a BMW inthusiast(didnt say car inthusiast)

mitsu and subaru are UGLY IMO... nomatter how fast they are, they are "slow"(as retarded) lookin.

eh guys.. get whatever you want, nobody hsould be able to convince you over an internet forum what to get! which ever car u see yourself better in, then thats the one u go get and buy.
i personaly see myself sitting in an e36 m3 or a nice hooked up 325/8is than both the 2004 ralleigh cars....

black99

04-27-2003, 12:09 AM

I was not looking for anyone to convince me but rather just looking for opinions. I did a lot of thinking and the E36 is a better all around car. Also its time to grow up and drive in class not just fast. I will be keeping the M and modding it to hell. Thank you for all of your opinions. When I need a fix for speed I will take one of my friends DSM's or the Evo for the day.

Uncle_Git

04-28-2003, 03:13 PM

Heh this thread seems to have polarized into 2 camps.

People who look down on Japanese cars because they don't have the "bling bling" factor and are not as luxurious as a BMW.

And those who appreciate the Rally specials for what they are - Performance bred rockets.

I'm getting a bit tired of people bench racing cars by their BHP / TQ figures - it's an utterly meaninless figure by itself - you need to figure in weight. And a car's desirability for me personally has nothing to do with raw speed or performance.

Just to put it all in perspecive - the STi will be at or slightly under 2000 lbs kerb weight, and with 300 BHP and all wheel drive.

The E46 M3 weighs in at 3400 Lbs. and 333 Bhp.

The E46 M3 is heading fast in the direct of weighing twice as much as the STi, with the little subaru only being 33 ponies short of the Bavarian monster.

With lighter mass you get car that is more willing to make direection changes and the AWD lets you put the power down earlier through the corner.

For me personally hp / weight etc is only one side of the coin in what makes a car "lust worthy".

Response and feedback is critical - point in case is the little Toyota MR2 - classic mid engined / rear drive layout - nice tight suspension - lightweight car with a crisp and precise turn in with amazing feedback through the steering - all round a car with gives me a deep desire for cool mornings for a blast through the mountains with the top down. Big BHP ? not at all.

But it delivers satisfaction on a deeper level .

binh

04-28-2003, 04:02 PM

yea, what he said:)

Matt P.

04-28-2003, 04:22 PM

///M3an Machine

dude, the AWD turbos didnt start untill the 993 turbo. Previous 964 and 930 models were RWD Porsches.......

Uncle_Git

04-28-2003, 05:29 PM

Also worth thinking about is that a Turbo M is well outside factory warranty - any new car will be putting out big numbers grunt wise, with AWD and with a full factory warranty, and with less than 2/3 the kerb weight of the M3.

To give these numbers some meaning - to achieve the same power to weight ratio of the STi the turbo M3 will have to put out 510 BHP.

How much of that will be usable power with only driving 2 wheels is debatable - it'll certainly provide a very twitchy drive.

Basically from a pure performance standpoint - the japanese rally specials will eat the M3 alive.

People who are bagging on them have clearly either never driven them or look down on any car other then BMW / German for status symbol reasons, and if that is the case - then you are not an car fan - you are an automotive snob.

The rally specials are a fantastic drive - if you are into motorsport / performance driving in any shape or form - they represent amazing value for money.

BTW: I drive a `99 M3 - I considered the Evo 8 and the STi - but I want a car with a bit more space and comfort than the rally cars provided - hence the M3.

However in my future is a weekend special with no doors, roof, carpet , heating or radio. The M3 would have to put out 680 bhp to keep up with it in power to weight ratio stakes :love1

FiKtIOn

04-28-2003, 06:01 PM

dude..the STi weighs 3263...meaning it weighs only 137 lbs less than the M3

Sorry, but you're wrong.

b0rf

04-28-2003, 06:06 PM

"Response and feedback is critical - point in case is the little Toyota MR2 - classic mid engined / rear drive layout - nice tight suspension - lightweight car with a crisp and precise turn in with amazing feedback through the steering - all round a car with gives me a deep desire for cool mornings for a blast through the mountains with the top down. "

uhh yeah, except for the horrible snap oversteer.

On the porsche topic-- they're not really 'awd', more like 4wd...90% rear power bias until traction is lost. I dont think the front is allowed any more than 30% of available power, regardless of conditions.

"To give these numbers some meaning - to achieve the same power to weight ratio of the STi the turbo M3 will have to put out 510 BHP."

What are you talking about? The STi will put out 300hp and will be lucky to weigh 3200lbs...putting it at MORE THAN 10lbs/hp.

The M3 sits in at around 3400 with 333hp..still over 10lbs per hp, but a slightly better power to weight ratio than the STi.

Don't get me wrong, the STi is going to be great, but all your numbers are totally off.

Uncle_Git

04-28-2003, 06:31 PM

Actually you are totally right [Own3d] - my mistake.

[Someone admitting they got something wrong on the internet ? Should I call Guinness to get my name in the record book ? :laugh ]

The fact remans that a $35K car has a similar power to weight ratio of the $55,000+ E46 M3 though is pretty impressive - combine that with the AWD ability of the Japanese cars and I suspect that it would be a damn interesting comparison.

The figures for the Caterham are in fact correct though - they have a kerb weight of around 1000 lbs. meaning an E46 would have to put out around 700 hp to keep up - Wear the brown shorts when test driving one of those !!

Having a car that you can take to the factory when something goes wrong is a nice thing to have on your daily driver, and turbo'd M3's is pretty new ground - we are yet to see any reliabilty stats on them over the long haul. Plus you are getting a 5+ year old car Vs a brand new car when you compare turbo'ing the E36.

I guess that the point I was trying to make is that the rally rockets are great value performance wise - and people who are performace orientated drivers should give them a long and hard look. But some people can't seem to get over their if it's not BMW / German it's a POS rice mobile.

PS: the snap oversteer on the MR2 isn't that bad as long as you don't do anything silly like a big lift or god forbid stomp the brakes mid corner. And they really are a fun little car - could use a little more grunt - but I'm sure the MR2 Turbo should be along presently ;-)

FiKtIOn

04-28-2003, 07:30 PM

Oh yeah, i'm not disagreeing at all, in fact you make a really good argument.

One of my favorite cars of all time, only second to the e30 m3, is a silvia sub s14. Followed quickly thereafter by any lanevo under VI and above IV....So I definitely am in the same boat..I would consider the lanevo, however it's too ugly IMO...But if I ever got the chance, I'd definitely look deep into a STi..Can't get a whole lot more for the money.

And how could I forget the lovely MR2 turbo..With some stripping be down around 2450, get normal turbo BPU's, you can easily be seeing 250-260 at the wheels...It's not slow stock either, ~6 seconds to 60...I almost got one over my 325...They all just had too many miles...

I know the 3SGTE or the 5SFE are both bulletproof 500K+ motors, I figured i'd get used to driving a non-cramped car first.. :biglaughb

dave is cool

04-28-2003, 10:09 PM

Half the people responding to this damn thread haven't even driven the EVO, let alone seen one in their life. They are giving biased opinions, so they don't know anything about the Mitsu and what the hell they are talking about. Whoever says going from BMW to a Mitsu is just wrong. That is basically a stuck-up personality right there, "Oh, I drive a BMW, so I am better than anyone who drives a Mitsu." Those are the people that give a bad name to BMW owners. Hell, I may be selling my E36 M3 for a Supra TT in a few years. Are some of the stuck-up BMW owners going to say, "Look, he drives a Toyota while we are in our precious BMW's, we are better than him." You won't be saying that when my 650+ RWHP monster rapes your precious BMW. All I am doing is sticking up for the Japanese cars here becuase everyone seems to bash them so much. If it was me, E36 M3 or EVO, both brand new, I would choose the EVO. I personally think it looks good. In the pictures, it looks ok, but in person, it looks damn good. And for all the people saying it's ugly as hell, wait till' you see it in person, you will probably like it more. Damn, so many snobs here.

Boomer

04-28-2003, 10:43 PM

dave is cool

ok.good for u....

i would takethe BMW, even though its not faster and any supra/sti/evo can rape the fastest bmw, OH WELL! i buy the car for the overall package, for its LOOKS (still a very important factor)
so what that an EVO or STI will rape an e46M3? thats not the only imporatant thing when u buy a car? or am i WRONG??

people buy the cars for: (IMO)

Preformance,Looks,Heritage,Class,Quality-Interior-comfort-ride and how many chicks it can pick up.

personally for me: Preformance(1) looks(2) Quality...(3) Class(4)

a BMW fits that description for me... a supra/evo/sti DO NOT.

do you understand me a little bit better now?

thank you

Renat

Boomer

04-28-2003, 10:47 PM

aloso, if i was a rich man...

i would probably have supras and STIs in my garage.... i never said that they are bad cars, its just that they are ugly to me.

they are faster and probably better than BMW, but it still doesnt change my point of view about them... BMW for me nomatter how much it sucks and slow and whimpy and heavy[B/].[B]

FiKtIOn

04-28-2003, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by dave is cool
Half the people responding to this damn thread haven't even driven the EVO, let alone seen one in their life. They are giving biased opinions, so they don't know anything about the Mitsu and what the hell they are talking about. Whoever says going from BMW to a Mitsu is just wrong. That is basically a stuck-up personality right there, "Oh, I drive a BMW, so I am better than anyone who drives a Mitsu." Those are the people that give a bad name to BMW owners. Hell, I may be selling my E36 M3 for a Supra TT in a few years. Are some of the stuck-up BMW owners going to say, "Look, he drives a Toyota while we are in our precious BMW's, we are better than him." You won't be saying that when my 650+ RWHP monster rapes your precious BMW. All I am doing is sticking up for the Japanese cars here becuase everyone seems to bash them so much. If it was me, E36 M3 or EVO, both brand new, I would choose the EVO. I personally think it looks good. In the pictures, it looks ok, but in person, it looks damn good. And for all the people saying it's ugly as hell, wait till' you see it in person, you will probably like it more. Damn, so many snobs here.

I HAVE seen on in person.

And I have also seen EVO IV, V, and VI in person as well.

Why do you care if everyone bashes japanese cars? It's an online forum for God's sake, give it a rest.

Personally I could care less if your 650+ horsepower monster rapes me. At the end of the day, I still drive a car that starts regularly, and functions under 2500 rpm.

I can still be better than you if you beat me in a race, and my BMW will still be precious.

And remember, you drive a "precious BMW." Jackass.

Boomer

04-28-2003, 10:48 PM

FiKtIOn

haha :)

BurnOutz

04-28-2003, 11:03 PM

Originally posted by dave is cool
Half the people responding to this damn thread haven't even driven the EVO, let alone seen one in their life. They are giving biased opinions, so they don't know anything about the Mitsu and what the hell they are talking about. Whoever says going from BMW to a Mitsu is just wrong. That is basically a stuck-up personality right there, "Oh, I drive a BMW, so I am better than anyone who drives a Mitsu." Those are the people that give a bad name to BMW owners. Hell, I may be selling my E36 M3 for a Supra TT in a few years. Are some of the stuck-up BMW owners going to say, "Look, he drives a Toyota while we are in our precious BMW's, we are better than him." You won't be saying that when my 650+ RWHP monster rapes your precious BMW. All I am doing is sticking up for the Japanese cars here becuase everyone seems to bash them so much. If it was me, E36 M3 or EVO, both brand new, I would choose the EVO. I personally think it looks good. In the pictures, it looks ok, but in person, it looks damn good. And for all the people saying it's ugly as hell, wait till' you see it in person, you will probably like it more. Damn, so many snobs here.

Alright, first off, let me say that I love the EVO, STI, 350Z, etc. etc. I have seen the new EVO (there is a black one around my area) and it does turn eyes (not always in a good way). Here is why I've begun to contemplate if I want the EVO VIII or STI. First off, the car is in 2 Fast 2 Furious and I don't like that kind of BS publicity for the car. Its what I call rice. Second, this car will be looked upon as more "rice" by the non-enthusiast crowd. Sure, it will smoke someone's ass, but where is the respect for the car (and the driver for that matter). I'm sorry but we live in a pretty ignorant world where prejudice runs prevalent. Unfortunately, the wing (though functional) and the altezzas don't help the image of this car. Maybe if I lived in Europe where WRC is acknowledged I will get an EVO.

dave is cool

04-28-2003, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by BurnOutz
Second, this car will be looked upon as more "rice" by the non-enthusiast crowd. Sure, it will smoke someone's ass, but where is the respect for the car (and the driver for that matter). Unfortunately, the wing (though functional) and the altezzas don't help the image of this car.

I get what you are saying, but who cares what people think about the car? Hell, I am considering getting black rims, and everyone I have asked their opinion for said it would look ugly. Do I care? No. I could care less about what other people think about my car. If the wing doesn't help the image of the EVO, then does the wing on the LTW M3 help the image of that car? The altezzas don't look so bad, but I agree, it would look much better with EVO VII taillights.

Originally posted by FiKtIOn
I HAVE seen on in person.

And I have also seen EVO IV, V, and VI in person as well.

Why do you care if everyone bashes japanese cars? It's an online forum for God's sake, give it a rest.

Personally I could care less if your 650+ horsepower monster rapes me. At the end of the day, I still drive a car that starts regularly, and functions under 2500 rpm.

I can still be better than you if you beat me in a race, and my BMW will still be precious.

And remember, you drive a "precious BMW." Jackass.

Ok, you have seen an EVO in person, good for you. Why do so many people here care if someone bashes BMW for one small thing? It's because they like the car, kind of like how I like Japanese cars, and half the people that bash them don't even know what the hell they are talking about. As for a 650 HP car starting regularly, ya, they do. Functions under 2500 RPM, ya they do, but once you hit boost, it flies. As for you being better than me in a race, why would that be? Just because you drive a BMW and someone else driving a Japanese car?

And I do drive a BMW. Do I consider it precious? Not at all. And why did you call me a jackass? Are you such a loser that you have to resort to name-calling because I am right?

Originally posted by Boomer
personally for me: Preformance(1) looks(2) Quality...(3) Class(4)

a BMW fits that description for me... a supra/evo/sti DO NOT.

I have almost the same standards as you. The main thing I look for is performance, or the ability to make amazing performance with it. Then comes looks, and then comes quality. As for class, I could care less. You said a Supra doesn't fit your description. It may not fit the description for looks and class for you, but it sure as hell fits the categories of performance and quality. Same with the EVO and STi, performance is really good on those, and performance is at the top of your list. But you don't like the looks, which is ok.

Pepe240sx

04-29-2003, 12:27 AM

Speaking as an Evo owner myself, I would tell you to get the Evo and ditch the M3 :D

But, as a car enthusiast, I appreciate both BMW and Mitsubishi. I'll put it in simple terms. If you want performance and handling, get the Evo. If you want an all-around daily driver, stick with the M3. For $30K, you can't get 300hp(despite Mitsu claiming 271hp), AWD, twin-scroll turbo, Recaro seats, Brembo brakes, Momo steering wheel, a tried-and-true motor which can run upwards of 600hp, a strong and bulletproof 5spd transmission, 17" Enkei rims which are lightweight and durable, and a spacious interior from any other car. Sure its not as luxurious as an M3, but this is a performance car for God's sake, not a luxo sedan. If you want a luxury car, get a Mercedes-Benz if you want a pussy car. If you want a luxury car combined with sport and performance, stick with the M3. I once considered getting a '95 BMW M3 prior to deciding on purchasing the Evo, but modifying a M3, even a tuner-friendly '95 M3, would put me in bankruptcy for decades to come :laugh

The Evo isn't a sports car, rather its a rally car. The M3 isn't a sports car either, rather its a sports coupe. Z8 is a sports car, the M3 CSL is a sports car, even the E30 M3 is more of a sports car than its successors are. The M Motorsport was mean't to be a racing division, not a luxury division, you know? I still have respect for M Motorsport, but with the new and highly controversial direction BMW is heading as far as styling and perhaps performance is concerned, I'm not sure if I should continue to support BMW as long as Chris Bangle continues to crucify the 5er :nono

About the cheap interior in the Evo, who fucking cares? I know it has a cheap interior, but does anyone who own it really cares? As I said before, this is a fucking performance car, not some luxo sedan. People who purchase the Evo are most likely going to take it out for the track, so I highly doubt they would be worried about the "cheap interior" as a lot of you bluntly criticize. If the next M3 became more of a track car by adopting crank windows, lack of sound deadening material, and different seats, I'm sure a lot of people here would be complaining about the lack of luxury features in that, now would they?

Regarding the advanced traction control, anyone who needs traction control to assist them in the track is not a good driver. I'm sorry if you think the DCCD in the STi will make you a better driver, because it surely won't. Driver skill makes the better driver, NOT some POS electronic BS.

And so what if Subaru has .5 more liters than the Evo? Does that automatically make it better? Consider this, the Porsche 911 GT3 has a flat-6, while the Diablo and the Ferraris have V12's? Does Porsche need a V12 to compete with those two vehicles? Give me a break. Its just .5 extra liters for God's sake!

I'm not dissing the STi by any means, because it is a great vehicle in its own respect. I'm just trying to refute the arguements that the STi is better just because it has .5 liters more and has DCCD, which makes you a better driver :rolleyes:

So black99, its up to you. If you want a no-holds barred performance car, get the Evo. If you want a suitable and civilized daily driver with all the ingredients such as luxury, sport, and performance in one package, by all means keep the M3.

P.S. If a lot of you think the rear tails are so damn ugly, just change them for God's sake! Its sad that the rear tails, which can be easily replaced with Evo7 tails, would prevent someone from purchasing a finely crafted automoble which is perhaps one of the best handling automobiles ever made.

I advise a lot of you to ask the European owners of Lancer Evolution's(any iteration) and they will tell you that these are in league with the likes of the Lotus Elises, Porsche 911's, BMW M3's & M5's, Opel Speedsters, etc. There was one issue of CAR magazine, I believe, which reviewed the Evo6.5 TME and said that it was much more fun to drive than the Ferrari 360 Modena, go figure :dunno

RR

SeattleE30///M3

04-29-2003, 12:45 AM

Originally posted by Boomer
BMW for me nomatter how much it sucks and slow and whimpy and heavy[B/].[B]

Even the new Bangled 7 and 5 series :95 :95 :95 :95

If so, you are truly a diehard BMW fan.

FiKtIOn

04-29-2003, 09:38 AM

Originally posted by dave is cool
Ok, you have seen an EVO in person, good for you. Why do so many people here care if someone bashes BMW for one small thing? It's because they like the car, kind of like how I like Japanese cars, and half the people that bash them don't even know what the hell they are talking about. As for a 650 HP car starting regularly, ya, they do. Functions under 2500 RPM, ya they do, but once you hit boost, it flies. As for you being better than me in a race, why would that be? Just because you drive a BMW and someone else driving a Japanese car?

And I do drive a BMW. Do I consider it precious? Not at all. And why did you call me a jackass? Are you such a loser that you have to resort to name-calling because I am right?

You aren't right, you're arguing in circles. I don't know what the argument was..That turbo cars are more easily modded power-wise vs. a NA car? If so you're right.

And with all those 25k dollar 650hp supra's running around, I'm sure you'll find a good one.

Read what I wrote, I said whether you beat me in a race or not, does not characterize me as a human being.

I'm sure you've been around tons of 600+ HP vehicles too. But there is no way for me to guage, because it IS an online forum.

I don't know why i'm even wasting my time.

vjlax18

04-29-2003, 10:05 AM

There was an EVO VIII at the autoX I was in this weekend. I wasn't impressed by the performance, but it was neat for lack of a better term.

It's going to be hard to sell them once the initial shock is gone. $30k for a new lancer is not what most who will pay $30k for a car want. It's not going to be around very long.

I personally don't care for the price of it, but it would be better if the price was around $20k where it belongs.

Ron17

04-29-2003, 10:16 AM

In a word...

Keep the M3.

SeattleE30///M3

04-29-2003, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by vjlax18
It's going to be hard to sell them once the initial shock is gone. $30k for a new lancer is not what most who will pay $30k for a car want. It's not going to be around very long.

I personally don't care for the price of it, but it would be better if the price was around $20k where it belongs.

I'm sorry, but if there is any car that is overpriced, it is a BMW.

If the EVO VIII should be $20K, the E46///M3 should be at $30K not $55K. We have not seen the value/performance like this in a very very long time. Cars like the EVO VIII and STi that should keep up or beat the E46M3 on the track (the car doesn't even deserve M stripes IMO) is setting the standard for affordable performance. BMW better step up or get the F(*K out of the way.

Man are BMW drivers "Snob Enthusiast or Driving Enthusiast??????" Sometimes I just don't get it.

As for luxury... If I want a nice leather seat, I'll go sit on my couch.

vjlax18

04-29-2003, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by SeattleE30///M3
Man are BMW drivers "Snob Enthusiast or Driving Enthusiast??????" Sometimes I just don't get it.

As for luxury... If I want a nice leather seat, I'll go sit on my couch.

The lines in my sig are sarcastic. I'm sorry, NO LANCER is worth $30k. I never said the E46 M3 was worth $55k, and I would never pay that much for one. I bought my M3 used and would never pay retail for a new one. If I wanted power, I'd buy a used C5.... oh wait, the wife has one. It too has a "cheap" interior.

The E46 M3 may be over priced, but the EVO is not going to beat it at a track with a *paved* surface.

SeattleE30///M3

04-29-2003, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by vjlax18
The E46 M3 may be over priced, but the EVO is not going to beat it at a track with a *paved* surface.

The EVO beat the E46///M3 on the R&T article a couple months back. In addition, in a best motoring video, the EVO beat a Ferrari 360 and an E46///M3 on Tarmac. In real world driving, i.e., rough roads, possible rain, snow the EVO will obliterate the E36///M3 and E46///M3 <--- when not in a straight line.

I'm not saying a E46///M3 will never win against an EVO. I'm just trying to say a EVO is a worthy competitor on TARMAC. (to get the E46///M3 to perform well on a track, the camber must be dialed in up front, get rid of the staggered setup, and lose a couple hundred pounds)

Well if no lancer is worth $30K and the E46///M3 isn't worth 55K, then I follow your logic. But you can't argue with the performance/dollar of the EVO.

BTW, the last two lines were general comments and not oriented specifically toward you. I was just addressing BMW drivers in general. C5 are another awesome performance/value car. I love the Z06 it's so fund to drive and powerful :D.

With all these performance cars, we're just lucky to be arguing which car is better. A couple years ago, none of these cars were ever on our shores!

Ron17

04-29-2003, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by SeattleE30///M3
I'm sorry, but if there is any car that is overpriced, it is a BMW.

If the EVO VIII should be $20K, the E46///M3 should be at $30K not $55K. We have not seen the value/performance like this in a very very long time. Cars like the EVO VIII and STi that should keep up or beat the E46M3 on the track (the car doesn't even deserve M stripes IMO) is setting the standard for affordable performance. BMW better step up or get the F(*K out of the way.

Man are BMW drivers "Snob Enthusiast or Driving Enthusiast??????" Sometimes I just don't get it.

As for luxury... If I want a nice leather seat, I'll go sit on my couch.

Easy, buddy. John's comments by no means place him in the "Roundel Snob" category. Simply saying a car is overpriced doesn't mean that he thinks BMWs are the only car priced correctly (which he, in fact, states that BMWs are also overpriced). He's wasted numerous precious minutes of his life trying to defend cars like the Corvette against the onslaught of the narrow-minded, elitist, Roundel snobs that occassionally rear their heads here.

Ron17

04-29-2003, 11:17 AM

Yeah, I posted that before your second post. Ooops... :D

Seriously, though... I was just making sure you understood that John is definitely NOT one of the Roundel snobs. That's all.

I've already made a jackass of myself, so I apologize. :az:

SeattleE30///M3

04-29-2003, 11:20 AM

It's all good and apology acepted :D

Maybe E30 guys are a little Testy :stickoutt

Thumbs up to all the Non-BMW snobs! :buttrock

Ron17

04-29-2003, 03:58 PM

Heh... I guess we all are, at times. Sorry I flew off the handle. John's my boy, so... you know how that goes. :)

Also, I definitely have more respect for E30 drivers than I do for the silly "badge-buyers" I see so many of running around in their E46s. :rolleyes:

Not that all E46 owners are badge-buyers, but I'm just saying there are definitely more of them than E30/36.

FiKtIOn

04-29-2003, 05:24 PM

We haven't seen value and performance like that in a while because there is no market for it. Very few people who have 30k to spend on a car will spend it on an lanevo, it's just a fact.

They would sell 2x as many if they were 20k.

I agree with John. Bring this thread back up in a year, and then see where the lanevo stands.

SeattleE30///M3

04-29-2003, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by FiKtIOn
We haven't seen value and performance like that in a while because there is no market for it. Very few people who have 30k to spend on a car will spend it on an lanevo, it's just a fact.

You have a very funny interpretation of what a fact is. :eyes1

Now if you went to forrestor research or other reputable reseach agencies and backed your blanket statement with real analysis to back up your theory, that would be different (but it still wouldn't be fact). What you stated is an opinion or a generalization.

BTW, are you only talking about the U.S. market. Cause STi and EVO sales in Japan and Europe have proved to be very contrary to your FACT. Due you Due Diligence.

b0rf

04-29-2003, 05:55 PM

Actually the US market is a prime example that good performance for the price sells well.

Hence why dealerships are marking Lanevo's up $5k over MSRP. When was the last time a JAPANESE car was marked up over MSRP?

"We haven't seen value and performance like that in a while because there is no market for it. Very few people who have 30k to spend on a car will spend it on an lanevo, it's just a fact.

They would sell 2x as many if they were 20k."

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about, they're selling like hotcakes.

Yeah they would sell 2x as many if they were 20k, but considering they're selling every car that comes off the boat, i don't think they're doing too badly. I don't think there is a strong argument against the LanEvo when it comes to price.

There is no profit off a $20k lanevo anyway.

ClintonM3

04-29-2003, 06:24 PM

Hence why dealerships are marking Lanevo's up $5k over MSRP. When was the last time a JAPANESE car was marked up over MSRP?

S2000 and 350Z both had markups over MSRP. Some S2K's had a markup as high as 10g. Yes, there are smucks out there who bought a 42g S2000.

Anyhow, my vote is to keep the M3.

dave is cool

04-29-2003, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by FiKtIOn
You aren't right, you're arguing in circles. I don't know what the argument was..That turbo cars are more easily modded power-wise vs. a NA car? If so you're right.

And with all those 25k dollar 650hp supra's running around, I'm sure you'll find a good one.

Read what I wrote, I said whether you beat me in a race or not, does not characterize me as a human being.

I'm sure you've been around tons of 600+ HP vehicles too. But there is no way for me to guage, because it IS an online forum.

I don't know why i'm even wasting my time.

How am I arguing in circles? How am I arguing at all? The dilemma this guy is in is talking about keeping his M3 or selling his EVO. Then some idiots on this thread started calling the EVO a piece of shit because it's Japanese, so I backed up the Mitsu saying it would wreck their M3's in basically every performance category, and it does, SeattleE30M3 mentioned that.

Stock Supra TT's in decent condition with 70k miles or so go around $24k, so 650 RWHP Supra TT's usually go for more than that, maybe mid-high 30's.

Beating you in a race doesn't characterize you as a human being, you're right. But the people that have the snobby attitude that think people that drive Japanese cars are lower than them are the people that are jackasses.

I've barely been around any 600+ HP cars, but the ones I were around were all Supras.

You're not wasting your time. You're giving me things to argue for and against :D

By the way, Seattle, you are right, BMW is definitely overpriced.

325ISjigga

04-29-2003, 06:54 PM

the Honda Odyssey had a MSRP mark-up of up to $5000 in some places. i think the EVO is all hype because people are going around saying its "one of the best handling cars EVER made", "has better turn in than a ferrari", "more fun to drive than a ferrari", hence everyone running out and getting it.

SeattleE30///M3

04-29-2003, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by 325ISjigga
i think the EVO is all hype because people are going around saying its "one of the best handling cars EVER made", "has better turn in than a ferrari", "more fun to drive than a ferrari", hence everyone running out and getting it.

This to me really brings everything full circle. These were exactly the comments that people and magazines were saying when the E36///M3 came out :clap:. So if this is the reason everyone is running out and getting it, that's great. Look how well the E36///M3 turned out. What you guys are forgetting is that this model is only really new to the North American market. The performance capabilities of the EVO and STi have been proven in three other continents. (Europe, Asia, Australia)

Just wait, in three years, the evo will probably get overweight, fat, and more luxuries like the the 3-series M have gotten over the past three generations. Then everyone will be complaining that the EVO and STI have lost their raw performance capabilities and have gone soft:biglaughb :biglaughb :biglaughb

FiKtIOn

04-29-2003, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by b0rf
Actually the US market is a prime example that good performance for the price sells well.

Hence why dealerships are marking Lanevo's up $5k over MSRP. When was the last time a JAPANESE car was marked up over MSRP?

"We haven't seen value and performance like that in a while because there is no market for it. Very few people who have 30k to spend on a car will spend it on an lanevo, it's just a fact.

They would sell 2x as many if they were 20k."

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about, they're selling like hotcakes.

Yeah they would sell 2x as many if they were 20k, but considering they're selling every car that comes off the boat, i don't think they're doing too badly. I don't think there is a strong argument against the LanEvo when it comes to price.

There is no profit off a $20k lanevo anyway.

Prove to me they won't profit at $20 grand. Fuck, I'll even give you a 5 grand buffer zone. My point is simply that there isn't a whole lot of market for them because:

There are "people" that are "snobbish" about "sports" cars, etc. And like I have seen going through this thread "It's a mitsu" "mitsushiti" and the list goes on.

Reason two, if you are well off in your twenties, and decently well off in your 30's, and can afford the car, then it would appeal to you..But most people can't afford it. And if they can, they aren't in the market for a car quite like the evo.

Reason three is that giving a car at least one production year, for safety, feedback, problems, etc with the build can be discussed and fixed.

Another problem is if people are getting it as a daily driver, this is a bad time to buy one. Because if you WERE to get in a wreck, then you may be out of a car a while. I'm just assuming again, because they may have full blown factories producing parts for them, but I don't see that as too feasible as of now.

I'm not trying to argue they aren't a bargain, and I'm DEFINITELY not saying it's a shitty car. I respect it completely, but I hope i'm getting my point across now.

And what are you talking about Seattle? You YOURSELF said they should be 20k. YOU Back it up.

(See Burton)

SeattleE30///M3

04-29-2003, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by FiKtIOn
Another problem is if people are getting it as a daily driver, this is a bad time to buy one. Because if you WERE to get in a wreck, then you may be out of a car a while. I'm just assuming again, because they may have full blown factories producing parts for them, but I don't see that as too feasible as of now.

I'm not trying to argue they aren't a bargain, and I'm DEFINITELY not saying it's a shitty car. I respect it completely, but I hope i'm getting my point across now.

And what are you talking about Seattle? You YOURSELF said they should be 20k. YOU Back it up.

(See Burton)

Let's see what I wrote.
If the EVO VIII should be $20K, the E46///M3 should be at $30K not $55K. This was a hypothetical statement that was a response to a previous post. So why don't you back that up. Don't just write or read half of what I wrote to justify your point. You can't even do due diligence on a damn chat board and you don't even know what a fact is..... and we're suppose to take your very loose assumptions and believe it. I have a better idea, why don't take your foot and put it in your mouth so you can't do it again. or Back Up your FACTS, or don't say an opinion is a FACT. You only discredit yourself.

If people drive around in retarded ass looking Z4's for $40,000+, don't you think SOME people might not think a 4 door rallye bred performance vehicle MAY be worth $30K. Some of my friends, a few on this thread, and I really think the EVO is worth $30K and some of us have the money to buy the car. Do I assume that the EVO is going to be the best selling thing since sliced bread?? Only the market will dictate that.

I don't have a big problem with your reasoning. Those are your assumptions, opinions, and beliefs that you have forumulated and you have every right to express yourself. What irritates me is that you state it as a FACT.

vjlax18

04-29-2003, 08:29 PM

I don't mean to be an ass, but...

How many of the people that have chimed in on this thread can actually afford a $30K+ car. Who here can really afford, or are willing to pay $600/month for a Lancer? I would imagine the target buyer is someone 16-25, but the only problem is that very few of the targeted population can afford that. What's the average income in the US? Something like $30k? That's somewhere around $1400 a month net. So by the time someone makes the car payment ($600) and insurance ($200), they are down to $600 left over for less important things like food and shelter. I don't buy the idea that the car has staying power in the American market. Maybe in Europe and Asia, but not America. The people in the US who can really afford the car are older than 25, most over 30... and they'll buy a 330iPP before buying an EVO, because (this sounds really bad) the business world doesn't accept big wings and such... but they do accept BMW's (no matter how over priced). I hope the car really gets big in the market, but IMO, I do not see the car making past the initial surge of buyers.

FiKtIOn

04-29-2003, 08:43 PM

If people drive around in retarded ass looking Z4's for $40,000+, don't you think SOME people might not think a 4 door rallye bred performance vehicle MAY be worth $30K.

But a Z4 has the roundel.

Don't jump on my ass, think about the statement.

I agree completely John, that's exactly what i'm saying.

vjlax18

04-29-2003, 08:54 PM

I would like to clarify the numbers... $1400 based on $350/week net,which is like $26k a year because it's a starting salary.

$600 based on a $30k loan, which after dealer mark-up and taxes means around a 5-7k down payment which is being generous. Another reason I don't think it's going to sell, people are not going to want to drop 5-7k on a Laner and still having a $600/month payment. And $200/month insurance is around what a normal 16-25 year old would be paying in "real" insurance that covers "real" things. And $600 left over is not going to pay for food and shelter.

Pepe240sx

04-29-2003, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by 325ISjigga
the Honda Odyssey had a MSRP mark-up of up to $5000 in some places. i think the EVO is all hype because people are going around saying its "one of the best handling cars EVER made", "has better turn in than a ferrari", "more fun to drive than a ferrari", hence everyone running out and getting it.

You think the Evo is all hype? Have you driven one, let alone sat in one? If you have, I would think you would refrain from speaking of ridiculous claims as this. This is the first AWD turbo rally sedan we have gotten from Mitsubishi in 11 years. Last AWD rally sedan they released in North America was the Galant VR4, which had a total production of less than 4,000 in 2 years alone. Its not just about hype that is making people purchase the Evo. Its the almost-cult status the car has received in the past 4 years in the states, thanks to the likes of Gran Turismo and WRC. Add that to the 4 consecutive wins in the WRC and you got a car that has a proven reputation of being a no-holds barred performance car. I think its funny how people think the Evo is just another riced-up Lancer, when they haven't even driven, let alone rode in one, because if they rode in one, their opinions would shift rapidly. There was even a Z06 owner who traded his Z06 for an Evo, and doesn't regret it one bit. The Evo is a driver's car, not a fixed-up Lancer. Just because it has a big wing(which is actually functional) and Altezza lights, they think it's "rice". The arrogance of many here surprises me. I understand a lot of people would complain about the Altezzas, but to call this vehicle rice is blasphemy. Let's see what rice is: mainly ANY vehicle, let it be Japanese, American, or German, which is ridiculously customized to utter blasphemy. In other words, it would possess the qualities of a show car, but lack the features of a race vehicle. Now, is the Evo rice, despite having sufficient performance numbers to back up its claim? What about the DTM-style wing that encompasses many customized BMW M3's here? Would that be considered rice as well?

The ignorance running in this board regarding Japanese cars astounds me.

Thank you for your time.

SeattleE30///M3

04-29-2003, 09:30 PM

I agree with you guys that if the EVO was Mitsubishi's bread and butter and the livelihood of Mitsubishi America depended on the EVO. However, unlike the Z4 or 330ipp, the EVO and STi are and expected to remain in low production numbers. Both Subaru and Mitsubishi have spent a lot of money before just deciding to bring these cars to market. I remember that both companies were waiting for a critical mass of market interest for the cars to come in through real world WRC rallye, video games GT3, and the press. They knew this would be an appealing market. Even if the model was not profitable, the change in perception of both the Mitsubishi and Subaru brands and marketing power would justify the losses. That is why we are seeing the spacing of the EVO and STi come so close to each other. They want to capitalize on this market.

Remember we are not talking typical BMW model numbers. I agree that BMW will sell more E36m3's then EVOs. But IMO BMW made way too many E36///M3's. So the EVOs low production is a good thing to me :) Plus, as i've said before, atleast grandparents and soccer moms probably won't be driving EVOs either.

Mitsubishi doesn't even care if they don't sell too much. Here is a quote.
According to Hiroshi Fuji, chief engineer of the Evo, the company isn't out to break sales records. "We want to establish ourselves in this segment, and bring a sporty image to our company,"

Sales comes from many ways.
(1)As a weekend car. I'm sure those rich businessman with S classes can afford an EVO for the weekend. Many EVO buyers already have two or three cars.
(2)A rich parent could buy son/daughter an EVO (if they buy them a M3 or a new BMW model currently, why not an EVO? You know how bad those snotty kids can nag to get what they want! )
(3)18-35 middle income bracket..
(4)Young adults like RalliArtRacer that deliver pizzas??? (i think I read that) to make ends meet so have the opportunity to drive a rallye bred beast. (I edited this part in cause you show the passion that people have for this car out there. + I completely agree with you)

In a lot of ways, I find the new rallye cars very similar to my E30M3's and the rallye and DTM era of the early 90's. European cars like the LANCIA Delta Integrale, MB 190E 2.5 16v EVO II, the E30 M3 Sport EVO, and the Audi Quattro that had bold and agressive body cladding, aggressive FUNCTIONAL wings, a lightweight chassis, minimal luxury items, high strung 4 cyl engines, pure performance bliss, and RACING HISTORY. Maybe that is why I am posting so damn much to this thread... plus snobby roundellers kinda starting to iritate me.

Pepe240sx

04-29-2003, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by ClintonM3
S2000 and 350Z both had markups over MSRP. Some S2K's had a markup as high as 10g. Yes, there are smucks out there who bought a 42g S2000.

Anyhow, my vote is to keep the M3.

Yes there were also schmucks out there who paid well over $10G over MSRP for an E46 M3 and there were even bigger schmucks who paid $20K over MSRP for a PT Cruiser & a Thunderbird, and those people who paid $20K or so over MSRP for the PT Cruiser & Thunderbirds are now kicking themselves in the head for making such a ridiculous investment.

Just wait, in three years, the evo will probably get overweight, fat, and more luxuries like the the 3-series M have gotten over the past three generations. Then everyone will be complaining that the EVO and STI have lost their raw performance capabilities and have gone soft

Ummm, its already here. Have you ever heard of the Evolution VII GT-A? Yes, its a more luxury, more "civilized" version of the Evo7. It has leather interior, a MIVEC automatic transmission with paddles on the steering wheel, less hp & torque than a manual Evolution VII, softer suspension, and more sound deadening material.

Here's some pics of the Evo7 GTA, the pussy Evo:

http://www.myevo.com/Gallery/LancerEVO7/LancerEvoVII_0023.jpg

http://www.lancerevoclub.com/EVOGTA/Depliant/GT-A09.jpg

http://www.xtreme-uk.net/images/databank/67and112.jpg

http://www.xtreme-uk.net/images/databank/75and91.jpg

Believe it or not, when this car was first on sale, it sold more than the Evo7 GSR.

SeattleE30///M3

04-29-2003, 09:44 PM

RalliArtRacer read my previous post. I editted it.

Here's some pics of the Evo7 GTA, the pussy Evo:

Hey it's not that much of a pussy. In the best motoring video, on a tight track, the Evo 7 GTA beat the Ferrari 360 Modena F1 and the E46///M3 SMG. Actually, that kinda makes your quote real interesting :stickoutt

Pepe240sx

04-29-2003, 10:03 PM

the EVo 7 GTA beat the Ferrari because it was a shorter track

on a longer track, however, it can't win, but it would be close(not for the GT-A)

SeattleE30///M3

04-30-2003, 12:48 AM

Yes, I totally agree. It was a tight circuit track where the evo could really excel. I have no doubt that on a longer track, the other cars would be ahead.

dave is cool

04-30-2003, 03:13 AM

Originally posted by SeattleE30///M3
Maybe that is why I am posting so damn much to this thread... plus snobby roundellers kinda starting to iritate me.

Same reason you see me posting in all of these Japanese car threads. I am sick of all the supposed "car enthusiasts" talking shit about Japanese cars here.

Originally posted by RalliArtRacer
The Evo is a driver's car, not a fixed-up Lancer. What about the DTM-style wing that encompasses many customized BMW M3's here? Would that be considered rice as well?

The ignorance running in this board regarding Japanese cars astounds me.

Totally agree man. You know what's weird? How some people here consider the EVO a fixed-up Lancer, then what about the E36 M3?? Isn't that just a fixed-up 325?? Some people are such hypocrites. Also, people say the wing on the EVO is rice. Well then if the EVO wing is rice, so is the wing on the LTW M3.

Pepe, the haters are just jealous that a new breed of JAPANESE cars are finally making it to the States, cars some of us always dreamed about, are coming to our shores, and are competing with BMW's for a fraction of the price tag.

NoSoup4U

04-30-2003, 08:17 AM

E30 M3 - I disagree with you on these things:

(1)As a weekend car. I'm sure those rich businessman with S classes can afford an EVO for the weekend. Many EVO buyers already have two or three cars.

I highly doubt S class owners would be looking at an EVO. Most of them are looking at the 996 GT2, E46 M3, etc. This just from conversations in the office. Driving an S420 or S500 -- most of them think cars that are around 40-60K are good prices for a weekend fun car. In fact, most of them look at the AMG or M5 as a sporty weekend car.

(2)A rich parent could buy son/daughter an EVO (if they buy them a M3 or a new BMW model currently, why not an EVO? You know how bad those snotty kids can nag to get what they want! )

This is true; but, most of the kids here at work, they have different tastes, BMW convertible, E46 M3, etc. You have to remember some of the parents that are willing to spend $30K on a brand new car for a h.s/college kid can easily spend $40K and the kids know it. Give them a choice of porsche boxster, bmw convertible or evo 8.... I would bet 7/10 choose one of the first two.

SeattleE30///M3

04-30-2003, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by NoSoup4U
E30 M3 - I disagree with you on these things:

I highly doubt S class owners would be looking at an EVO. Most of them are looking at the 996 GT2, E46 M3, etc. This just from conversations in the office. Driving an S420 or S500 -- most of them think cars that are around 40-60K are good prices for a weekend fun car. In fact, most of them look at the AMG or M5 as a sporty weekend car.

This is true; but, most of the kids here at work, they have different tastes, BMW convertible, E46 M3, etc. You have to remember some of the parents that are willing to spend $30K on a brand new car for a h.s/college kid can easily spend $40K and the kids know it. Give them a choice of porsche boxster, bmw convertible or evo 8.... I would bet 7/10 choose one of the first two.

That very well be. I was just throwing out possibilities, just like you were pointing out other possibilities. You can imagine that some sales may come from those groups. Until you take a poll or look at sales statistics, nobody can be sure that 7/10 choose one of the first two. Why don't you take a poll at www.evolutionm.net and I bet they'll tell you its 7/10 the other way. I have read of quite a few ferrari and exotic car owners in Europe also have a EVO7 in their collection as a fun car as well (from magazines). Maybe the US will be a totally different market as market branding seems to take precedence over everything here.

Remember, it doesn't even matter how many EVOs mitsubishi sells. Mitsubishi doesn't even care, and with the limited production, I don't think they will have a problem getting the cars off the lot. Is it a bad thing that they will be less EVO VIIIs then E46///M3s and E36///M3s?? I think that is the best thing that could of happened.

I will be a post whore no more. I think I have stated my case that the EVO is a worthy competitor to the M3's if one is interested in the performance aspect of the car. If your about the bling, luxury, and a more compromised performance car, then the M3 is probably your choice.

When the VW R32 comes out, will no one purchase a $30K VW performance hatchback? I think not.

My biggest disappointment is timing. The japanese, as well as supercar manufacturers, all start production when the economy is at its worst. I hope the current line up of cars/supercars dont see the same fate as Japanese sports cars of the mid 90s.

Reno

04-30-2003, 02:20 PM

nothing will give you the pleasure of driving like a bmw

NEVER

cant believe u even consider

NoSoup4U

04-30-2003, 02:46 PM

What, silencer you are smoking to much al-jazeer crack ... :D

1) You haven't driven a porsche --
2) you haven't driven a Z06
3) there are many cars that give me more pleasure then driving a bmw depending on my mood ...

Lexus/MB ... driving one is like floating ... kind of nice at times ...

The evo 8 is an admirable car ... no doubt. The STi is an admirable car no doubt. It will be interesting to see if the M1 will try and compete with the evo 8 ...

black99

04-30-2003, 02:51 PM

I didnt think such a simple question could turn into a huge topic but I can see there is many people who dont have a clue about japanese peformance. There has been many good points made about both cars here pros and cons but in all reality it becomes a personal preference. The evo is a great car while the M is also an amazing car but you need a HUGE budget to do anything to it. People were saying who's going to afford an Evo when the age group is 16-25. Where did you get that age group from first all all because majority of the owners I know are 30+. The evo is a great bang for the buck like the DSMs are but with many improvements. I love my M but i also love speed and turbo so I am still considering both of the options. The lack of market for selling used cars doesnt help the whole situation either. So I am still kind of stomped between both.

vjlax18

04-30-2003, 05:18 PM

I'm sorry, but I only know one person over 30 who would even consider buying the car, and I bet you he'd by a Neon first. I stand with my 16-25 age group. I am in that age group, and I could afford one easily, but I would rather have a used M3, but that is my decision, and I'm sure a few will buy the Evo.

Reno

04-30-2003, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by NoSoup4U
What, silencer you are smoking to much al-jazeer crack ... :D

rofl

btw, i dont see any japanies car in your list

tho i do agree with the car u listed

my friend just bough the 911 (new one, rich mother fucker:D )
sooner or later i put my hands on it

my dad own a benz
nice car

quality is the same i admit but i dont like the look =P

i donno but i dont see myself trading a german made for japanies made (i know they have great cars! but still)

Reno

04-30-2003, 05:58 PM

lets donate money for a s/c for this guy

help a bimmer in trubble:b_blue:

frayed

04-30-2003, 09:46 PM

I can't wait to see what this supercar will do on the track. I've had no issues with two massaged WRX's, and big hp S4's, all of them on R comps and with advanced drivers. It'll be interesting to see what the new AWD adolescent wet dream will do at 105 mph in an all wheel drift.

I still have trouble with the Evo as a car that must be a decathlete for me to own it: look good, be able to shuttle clients around in comfort, tear up the track and embarrass 'better' cars, pick up the lil one from school, get groceries, not attract police, put big a big grin on my face during canyon runs, all while quietly going about its business w/o sticky fingerprints all over the car from wanting pre-pubescent boys.

In any event, it's hard to write a check for 30k when your wife sees one and says 'Ick'.