m50 manifold before and after dynos

[dustent]

m50 manifold before and after dynos

Cars:
1999 BMW m3
5-speed
92k miles

Mods:
Dinan Euro MAF
Dinan Big Bore TB
Dinan Carbon Fiber Intake
Dinan Free flow exhaust
Dinan Stage 3 software

I used a manifold from a '95 m3 and Eric's kit (m50manifold.com). Eric's kit works VERY well.
His instructions and pictures make it an easy install. Total install time was about 6 hours, I
took my time.

I was imediately impressed with the new power. With my snow tires (235/45/17 Dunlop Wintersport D3s)
the tires would spin at anything more than 1/2 throttle in 1st AND 2nd gear. That's kinda fun.

Dyno runs were done 3 days apart, temperature was between 50-60 degrees in the dyno room.
The dyno is a 2WD 450DS at Performance Engine in Madison, Wisconsin.

Baseline dyno results:
These are uncorrected, so they look a little low.
http://180customs.net/Gallery/d/6270-1/m50+manifold+007.jpg

After the m50 manifold installation:
The result is a 22 hp max hp gain. There is the expected small torque lose, but as you can see
on the graph, max torque is almost the same, it just hits later in the rev range. The red line on the graph is the pre-manifold install, the teal and purple lines are two post-manifold install runs.

http://180customs.net/Gallery/d/6278-1/DSCF5341.JPG


Here is the corrected version, 13% correction added:
http://180customs.net/Gallery/d/6276-1/DSCF5340.JPG


Manifold runner size comparision:
http://180customs.net/Gallery/d/6272-1/DSCF5338.JPG

I didn't get a print out of the AFR, but it gets pig rich around 4500 rpms. My guess is that Dinan runs a conservative rich tune. I think it's time for cams and new software now.

[mitchelrl]

Very nice.

I'm almost wondering how much I can get out of my M52, lol.

[GG///M3]

Very nice.

I'm almost wondering how much I can get out of my M52, lol.

I've seen them make about 22xwhp with simliar mods(cams from an s52 included).

[M3forJTB]

I need to get a dyno run with my schrick IM on and then with the M50... The curiosity is KILLING ME! (and killing others I've talked to)

Time to bite the bullet!

[fcvapor05]

Wow... thats a big jump! If you had just posted numbers I would have called BS, but you cant really argue with dyno data.

[BMWALDO]

Very fuhken impressive numbers after correction.

[G///ME]

isn't a 184 whp rating low for these cars???

[dustent]

isn't a 184 whp rating low for these cars???

That's uncorrected. Dyno Dynamics run low, or other dynos run high. Usually a 13% correction is added to Dyno Dynamics numbers. The max hp numbers don't matter as much as the difference between the two.

[MELSM3]

How many of those Lights you go through during the install?

[Patrón]

nice info, great post. seems like the best mod for the money.

[mitchelrl]

I've seen them make about 22xwhp with simliar mods(cams from an s52 included).

I was referring to my manifold.

[G///ME]

That's uncorrected. Dyno Dynamics run low, or other dynos run high. Usually a 13% correction is added to Dyno Dynamics numbers. The max hp numbers don't matter as much as the difference between the two.

ahh i see now. so in theory if you dynoed on a dynojet (or other) it would be around 207whp as a baseline and ultimately ended up with 230whp after the mod. not too shabby my friend. you had me worried there for a bit.

[dustent]

How many of those Lights you go through during the install?

3. :)


ahh i see now. so in theory if you dynoed on a dynojet (or other) it would be around 207whp as a baseline and ultimately ended up with 230whp after the mod. not too shabby my friend. you had me worried there for a bit.

You got it.

[freeagnt54]

i thought stock m3's made 240hp, or is that from the crank?

[F1SportsFan]

Very nice:buttrock

This will definitely be my next power mod.

[BeastinM3]

i thought stock m3's made 240hp, or is that from the crank?

Exactly

Nice numbers OP

[Eddie916]

What lights?

[dustent]

What lights?

Miller Lites.

[pbonsalb]

I did not notice supporting mods like exhaust, CAI, software, etc. You can find the European Car Eurosport cam kit test online with some Googling. There are various dynos available, one of which is similar to yours. With supporting mods, including cams, the torque loss at low rpm almost goes away.

[Patrón]

I just noticed you have the dinan throttle body and stage 3 software, i'm surprised you didn't make more hp.

[Eric98Sedan]

Wow! The area under the curve is dramatically increased after 4k. That thing must really open up now.

I've also got the exact setup as you, minus the Mani. I'm about to get a baseline run as well, before I throw the Mani on.

[dustent]

I did not notice supporting mods like exhaust, CAI, software, etc. You can find the European Car Eurosport cam kit test online with some Googling. There are various dynos available, one of which is similar to yours. With supporting mods, including cams, the torque loss at low rpm almost goes away.

Mods:
Dinan Euro MAF
Dinan Big Bore TB
Dinan Carbon Fiber Intake
Dinan Free flow exhaust
Dinan Stage 3 software

I'm guessing it's stage 3 software. It was on there when I bought it. Anyone know how to determine what stage software I have? Does Dinan keep track of that?

[Eric98Sedan]

Mods:
Dinan Euro MAF
Dinan Big Bore TB
Dinan Carbon Fiber Intake
Dinan Free flow exhaust
Dinan Stage 3 software

I'm guessing it's stage 3 software. It was on there when I bought it. Anyone know how to determine what stage software I have? Does Dinan keep track of that?

That's funny, I bought my car with all the same mods as well:buttrock

I'm curious as well about the software. I 'wonder' how the Shark might perform in comparison. Did the Stage 3 software run rich BEFORE the mani?

[dustent]

That's funny, I bought my car with all the same mods as well:buttrock

I'm curious as well about the software. I 'wonder' how the Shark might perform in comparison. Did the Stage 3 software run rich BEFORE the mani?

Yeah, it was rich before the mani swap. I'll email the dyno operator right now and see if he can send me the AFR graphs as well. Might be worth starting a new thread on Dinan richness.

[GrifM3]

Yeah, it was rich before the mani swap. I'll email the dyno operator right now and see if he can send me the AFR graphs as well. Might be worth starting a new thread on Dinan richness.

With the mods you have listed, your programming should be at Stage IV. With the intake, you might consider moving to Stage V, which Dinan wrote for Stage IV cars + the Schrick intake. I would get another dyno with AFR done, just to confirm you're not running lean with the M50.

HTH,

GrifM3
Dinan S2

[dustent]

With the mods you have listed, your programming should be at Stage IV. With the intake, you might consider moving to Stage V, which Dinan wrote for Stage IV cars + the Shrick intake. I would get another dyno with AFR done, just to confirm you're not running lean with the M50.

HTH,

GrifM3
Dinan S2

That does help. I think I need to contact the dealership that did the Dinan mods and find out if they have records. I did have AFR done with the dyno, but I didn't get them printed out. I just email the dyno operator to get them sent to me, then I'll post them up.

[GrifM3]

That does help. I think I need to contact the dealership that did the Dinan mods and find out if they have records. I did have AFR done with the dyno, but I didn't get them printed out. I just email the dyno operator to get them sent to me, then I'll post them up.

They dealer should have records. But if they don't, just have them hook up the Dinan programmer and have them read which level of programming the car has. Takes 2'.

I would very surprised if your car is running rich. I haven't added the M50 yet, but will soon. Most dyno's I've seen with Dinan Stg V and the M50 do not run rich, even with the rising rate FPR installed. My car, currently in Stage IV trim, runs right on target, not rich at all.

Bottom line, get some data to review so you don't cook your engine with the M50.

GrifM3
Dinan S2

[dustent]

They dealer should have records. But if they don't, just have them hook up the Dinan programmer and have them read which level of programming the car has. Takes 2'.

I would very surprised if your car is running rich. I haven't added the M50 yet, but will soon. Most dyno's I've seen with Dinan Stg V and the M50 do not run rich, even with the rising rate FPR installed. My car, currently in Stage IV trim, runs right on target, not rich at all.

Bottom line, get some data to review so you don't cook your engine with the M50.

GrifM3
Dinan S2

Do you need to have the rising rate fuel pressure regulator installed for Stage 5? How does Stage 5 work with cams?

[GrifM3]

Do you need to have the rising rate fuel pressure regulator installed for Stage 5? How does Stage 5 work with cams?

Your car should already have the FPR if installed correctly. Dinan includes it as insurance against lean AFRs.

Stage V has been proven to work well with Schricks, do a search. Can't comment on Sunbelt or Evosport cams.

GrifM3
Dinan S2

[whopwood]

Grats on the new found ponies.

Now, get to work on that substandard beer selection!

Should we go for pinks this weekend? My snows can't hold for jack either. Especially with all the expansion cracks bucking up ;~)

[dustent]

Your car should already have the FPR if installed correctly. Dinan includes it as insurance against lean AFRs.

Stage V has been proven to work well with Schricks, do a search. Can't comment on Sunbelt or Evosport cams.

GrifM3
Dinan S2

Thanks, I've tried finding more info on what the different Dinan stages contain, but haven't had much luck. If I knew what the Dinan RRFRP looked like or where it's mounted I'd just take a look and see if it's there. Does it replace the factory FPR?


Grats on the new found ponies.

Now, get to work on that substandard beer selection!

Should we go for pinks this weekend? My snows can't hold for jack either. Especially with all the expansion cracks bucking up ;~)

LOL

Have you had yours dyno'd yet? No excuse not to with that nice dyno dynamics sitting out in Middleton.

[Ced]

Thanks, I've tried finding more info on what the different Dinan stages contain, but haven't had much luck. If I knew what the Dinan RRFRP looked like or where it's mounted I'd just take a look and see if it's there. Does it replace the factory FPR?



You get the RRFRP when you add the Euro HFM. You can utilize that BBTB if you do the ASC delete mod. It's a throttle body too, bottleneck.

http://www.dinancars.com/

[whopwood]

LOL

Have you had yours dyno'd yet? No excuse not to with that nice dyno dynamics sitting out in Middleton.


No dyno yet. The clutch that could hold it went in right about when the blizzak's went on :(

Does that portable dyno give good numbers? It looks a little Fischer Price to me =/ Do they know how to strap down an E36 with hooks?

I'm on the list to get one of those new fangled GPS based perfomance logging systems. I'll run the accellerometer version (Gtech) in parallel. That will be dyno enough for me. 290, 295, 300... it's all the same. My sphincter tells me when I have purchased enough HP. Make yourself pucker and that is just about the right amount.

[dustent]

No dyno yet. The clutch that could hold it went in right about when the blizzak's went on :(

Does that portable dyno give good numbers? It looks a little Fischer Price to me =/ Do they know how to strap down an E36 with hooks?

I'm on the list to get one of those new fangled GPS based perfomance logging systems. I'll run the accellerometer version (Gtech) in parallel. That will be dyno enough for me. 290, 295, 300... it's all the same. My sphincter tells me when I have purchased enough HP. Make yourself pucker and that is just about the right amount.

It's a good dyno, costs about $80k. Dyno Dynamics are supposed to be the best (more accurate, consistent) you can buy. David is the only guy that runs the Dyno and he has experience with strapping e36s down. Jim (black supercharged sedan) dynos there and so do the Polley boys. Nothing to worry about. Yes, he uses hooks. I have a video if you'd like me to post it.

[Edlvrt]

Can someone please explain why there is a torque loss? And, just for argument sake (i won't do it) if I were to put a M52 manifold on my '92 M50, would I gain low end torque and lose high power? Or is the HP gain/torque loss a result of different stock cams and VANOS when compared to my '92? Thanks

[fcvapor05]

Torque is lost because the larger M50 mani runners have lower velocity in the midrange. This decreases cylinder filling, decreasing midrange torque a little. If you put an M52 manifold on your M50, yes, you would likely gain some torque and lose some high-end power.

[dustent]

Can someone please explain why there is a torque loss? And, just for argument sake (i won't do it) if I were to put a M52 manifold on my '92 M50, would I gain low end torque and lose high power? Or is the HP gain/torque loss a result of different stock cams and VANOS when compared to my '92? Thanks

Take a good look at that hp and torque curves. The additional power created higher in the rev range is MUCH more usable that the small amount that was lost. The torque isn't really lost, it's just redistributed.

I can't fell the low end difference, but I can REALLY feel the high end gain.

[pbonsalb]

I am not sure about much more useable. 99% of my driving is below 4000 rpm. However, I feel the torque of the 3.2L is more than sufficient in a manual trans M3 and am happy to sacrifice some down low for an even greater bump up top. I get my thrills up top. I did add Shricks and headers and track pipe and rear exhaust and swapped a 3.38 rear for the 3.23, so I am probably not losing anything down low now.

[Patrón]

I am not sure about much more useable. 99% of my driving is below 4000 rpm. However, I feel the torque of the 3.2L is more than sufficient in a manual trans M3 and am happy to sacrifice some down low for an even greater bump up top. I get my thrills up top. I did add Shricks and headers and track pipe and rear exhaust and swapped a 3.38 rear for the 3.23, so I am probably not losing anything down low now.

sounds like you have a really nice setup there.

[pbonsalb]

I like the NA mods, but it is really the Vortech supercharger with air to water intercooler and 12 psi boost that wakes the car up.

For naturally aspirated, lower gearing through the diff brings back lost torque. I could feel the difference from even the small upgrade from 3.23 to 3.38. Many people go to 3.46 or 3.64. Metric Mechanic has some good write ups on the effect of differential gearing.

[Dispatch20]

Yeah, it was rich before the mani swap. I'll email the dyno operator right now and see if he can send me the AFR graphs as well. Might be worth starting a new thread on Dinan richness.

I have dinan sw (not sure what stage, probably 1 or 2), and an M50 manifold. I run super rich past 5krpm. It gets as low as 10.9 and tends to puke black/brown smoke out the exhaust sometimes.

graph of AFR is here:
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j253/Dispatch20/dyno_afr.jpg

[dustent]

Here is the AFR plot. See how rich it is at 5k rpms? Anyone else have a Dinan Stage 4 AFR plot?

http://180customs.net/Gallery/d/6384-1/dyno+with+afr.jpg

I'm curious what the Stage V software does to the AFR?

[JBFMCAR]

I want to hear more i have the full Dinan car with mods below and im getting ready to do the manifold.

Power Mods:
Dinan Euro MAF and Dinan FPR
Dinan Big Bore TB
Dinan Carbon Fiber Intake
Dinan V2 Free flow exhaust
Dinan Stage 4 software
UUC UD pulleys
Fan Delete
ASC Delete

['96 E36 M3]

20 hp gain with the M50 manifold is very nice! As mentioned previously, it might well have been better were you to have the Dinan Stage 5 software installed.

I noticed something odd in the baseline dyno numbers. If the baseline included everything (i.e., Dinan goodies) but the M50 manifold I would say something is off. The reason I say this is that my car put down 182 whp stock and 219 whp after installing the Dinan CAI, Dinan Exhaust, and Dinan Stage 2 software. The baseline and post-mod dynos were performed on the same Dyno Dynamics dyno, though they were spaced a few years apart.

I found this thread while searching for experiences moving from my setup (CAI, Exhaust, Software) to the Euro HFM, BBTB, and Stage 4 software. Based on what I see here, I can't extrapolate what my gains would be in moving to that setup.

Note: when I say something is off, I'm not implying yours is off. Indeed something could have been off with mine as well.

[Nik1703]

I like the NA mods, but it is really the Vortech supercharger with air to water intercooler and 12 psi boost that wakes the car up.

For naturally aspirated, lower gearing through the diff brings back lost torque. I could feel the difference from even the small upgrade from 3.23 to 3.38. Many people go to 3.46 or 3.64. Metric Mechanic has some good write ups on the effect of differential gearing.


Try mine :]

[MontyM3]

all i've read is good things about the M50 mani, plan to get one here soon

[pbonsalb]

Try mine :]

I am sure a 4.11 rips, but 4250 to 4500 to run 75 to 80 mph on the highway is just too much for me. I have driven my car over 30,000 miles since supercharging it in 2005 and need to keep it reasonably comfortable as a daily driver at the present time. Maybe if I had a 6 speed . . . .

[racer m]

nice pull