Self-Tune?

[Silex]

My Evo 9 has options for self-tuning like ECUFlash which plugs into our OBD2 diagnostic port and is able to put the car into a programmable state to read and write data from the ECU's ROM. Is there a similar setup for the E36 M3? It's more enticing to spend $90 for the hardware for the Evo to tune the stock ECU than $1k+ for a custom tune or $3k for a standalone ECU for the M3.

[silence]

lol

at least you don't have a mercedes

see my sig.- i feel your pain

[markesq]

That would be too easy and the few tuners could not corner the market.

Unfortunately the answer is no.

[Silex]

Oh this sucks...

I should clarify that I am referring to flashing the stock ECU and adjusting timing and fuel trims via third party software.

[PhatTonis]

just got megasquirt :-p

[silence]

look at it as a blessing that you own one car that is so easy!

[325icintn]

Oh this sucks...

I should clarify that I am referring to flashing the stock ECU and adjusting timing and fuel trims via third party software.
We understood. The answer is no. It sucks.

[Silex]

Megasquirt, eh? That's still a standalone ECU though :(. I'm pretty sure you lose a lot of basic functionality on a daily driver which is not an option. This begs the question as to how tuners modify the stock ECU? I guess that's a trade secret of the tuner. Or do they mostly tune piggybacks and standalones for these cars?

[bennyfizzle]

Megasquirt, eh? That's still a standalone ECU though :(. I'm pretty sure you lose a lot of basic functionality on a daily driver which is not an option. This begs the question as to how tuners modify the stock ECU? I guess that's a trade secret of the tuner. Or do they mostly tune piggybacks and standalones for these cars?

no they do both obdII and obd1 dme tuning, just not a public thing afaik :az

[SiGmA]

There are OBD2 tuners, you just may have to bring the car to them. IIRC there is a shop in your town that does it. I think its D/A, Discovery Automotive. They may not be in San Diego, but they are for sure in Cali.

In an e36 you won't lose much body functionality by running a standalone.

[camshaft]

This begs the question as to how tuners modify the stock ECU? I guess that's a trade secret of the tuner. Or do they mostly tune piggybacks and standalones for these cars?

Yes, it is possible to figure it out yourself. Whether it's worth your time versus how much you'll pay a good tuner is the big issue though.

[Silex]

If not much is lost with a standalone, I guess that is still the best route to go as long as there is a base map available to use as a baseline. Isn't DA Motorsports in Turkey, lol? Extreme Motorsports is right down the street from me though.

Hopefully eventually this information will be made public. Evo's used to be like this up until a year ago, but then a hardware cable was released that allows for consumers to do the tuning themselves with free software. Before that you had to rely on tuners to make every
single little change to your car.

[bennyfizzle]

If not much is lost with a standalone, I guess that is still the best route to go as long as there is a base map available to use as a baseline. Isn't DA Motorsports in Turkey, lol? Extreme Motorsports is right down the street from me though.

Hopefully eventually this information will be made public. Evo's used to be like this up until a year ago, but then a hardware cable was released that allows for consumers to do the tuning themselves with free software. Before that you had to rely on tuners to make every
single little change to your car.

evos have a much larger aftermarket backing.

:az

maybe one day...

[markesq]

It will be the last resort for tuners to make money when the E36 market dries up.

[Silex]

^ That argument can't be the case since Evo's were only 3 years old before a self-tuning method was introduced.

[Matt]

If you want it to be that way, learn how to hack ECUs and give all the info away for free.

By the time you get done, you will want to be reimbursed for your efforts. :dunno

Keep in mind, all the tuners who are selling BMW software are actual tuners, not software hackers who have no idea how motors work and leave you to calibrate your own computer, or pay a third party to do it like a lot of Subaru and Evo setups do.

[markesq]

^ That argument can't be the case since Evo's were only 3 years old before a self-tuning method was introduced.

That's the reality of owning a BMW. ;)

Less competition for the tuners.

[325icintn]

^ That argument can't be the case since Evo's were only 3 years old before a self-tuning method was introduced.
It is generally argued that 1) the few number of BMW's sold, 2) the more limited DIY tuner attitude of the average new bmw purchaser, 3) the lack of significant gains by software alone given the nature of a well-tuned non-FI production car, and 4) a possibly more complicated/protected ecu all combine to limit the profitability of selling/creating/sharing a tuning interface.

I have always argued that pro tuners would get alot more business if DIY tuning was available. Reason being, many would install the FI system and try to tune, then quickly become either stuck or want that extra 20% of power that someone like NickG or Karl Hugh or JimC can safely find. The result would be alot more FI bmws buying alot more parts and seeking out quality tuners and dyno time. I guess I'm preaching to a choir of deaf ears ...

[Silex]

I agree 325icintn! But the problem is tuners don't want to take that plunge, because they fear the opposite of what you suggest. Unless someone decides to take the plunge, we will never know. I also agree about the DIY attitude not being as prevalent with BMW's as much as they are with FI cars from the factory. Guess it's just the market we are in.

I only asked this question because I was planning to source an CF supercharger setup shortly and wanted to do my own tuning especially to get the kits to my own custom level. I hate to say it, but a lot of owners gawk at others' accomplishments and never do anything themselves. A DIY product should change all that and allow more owners the freedom to learn about the wonderful world of tuning at their own pace. I think the amount of knowledge, especially on these forums, will most certainly increase.

[gboezio]

Then wait a bit for the Megasquirt sequencer, this stuff is the ultimate DIY/low cost high user implication ECU.

[Robstah]

It is generally argued that 1) the few number of BMW's sold, 2) the more limited DIY tuner attitude of the average new bmw purchaser, 3) the lack of significant gains by software alone given the nature of a well-tuned non-FI production car, and 4) a possibly more complicated/protected ecu all combine to limit the profitability of selling/creating/sharing a tuning interface.

I have always argued that pro tuners would get alot more business if DIY tuning was available. Reason being, many would install the FI system and try to tune, then quickly become either stuck or want that extra 20% of power that someone like NickG or Karl Hugh or JimC can safely find. The result would be alot more FI bmws buying alot more parts and seeking out quality tuners and dyno time. I guess I'm preaching to a choir of deaf ears ...

1) There are interfaces/chips/bins out there for Ferraris. You can't really say that BMW is limited by the amount of cars they sell.

2) Can't really help that, unless you look outside the country for help. Money can get you places too. :stickoutt

3) BMW sells their cars detuned. Let's just say that there are BMW factory flashes that gain 40+hp out of the stock engine. There are also freak tunes out there that BMW tuners made themselves, which make unrealistic numbers from, once again, stock setups.

4) OBDII is easier than you realize. Germany, Italy, and France have all been there, done that, with BMWs. You would be surprised what you may find if you just search on Google.

[Streetcar]

Evo9 is also a forced induction platform from the factroy, making parts of tuning and adaptation easier.

If and when Jim C gets to releasing tuning software, this will be a viable option.

Robstah - carefull on #3 - they are sold "detuned" for emissions and longevity in mind. Very few have the means and resources to understand and test changes.

[Robstah]

Evo9 is also a forced induction platform from the factroy, making parts of tuning and adaptation easier.

If and when Jim C gets to releasing tuning software, this will be a viable option.

Robstah - carefull on #3 - they are sold "detuned" for emissions and longevity in mind. Very few have the means and resources to understand and test changes.

Careful? BMW only detuned their engines because they know there are idiots dumping crap fuel into the cars. They know that there are markets for certain amounts of power, and they target those markets. Detuning does not mean that longevity is reduced either. It does introduce parts outside of the engine to extra wear, and possibly showing their weakness to more power. I highly doubt anyone is caring about emissions anymore, especially when a lot of turbo'ed BMWs are running with no cats. Not only that, but the gains I quoted you actually pass emissions better than with a stock chip/tune. If longevity is really a part of it, I wouldn't mind cutting out 20,000 miles out of an engine that normally lasts 200,000+ for more power.

[Streetcar]

Careful? BMW only detuned their engines because they know there are idiots dumping crap fuel into the cars. They know that there are markets for certain amounts of power, and they target those markets

Wouldn't that mean they'd want to make the most power, safely, in that market? :)


It does introduce parts outside of the engine to extra wear, and possibly showing their weakness to more power.
Very true, GM has been well known to do this with their torque management controls in their engine management. I'm sure other companis as well as BMW do something similar.


highly doubt anyone is caring about emissions anymore, especially when a lot of turbo'ed BMWs are running with no cats. Not only that, but the gains I quoted you actually pass emissions better than with a stock chip/tune.
I would find that hard to swallow as most aftermarket companies wouldn't have the millions and millions to spend on being emissions complient like an OEM would. If you're saying the car has been modified, I'd consider, but again, not many people/shops/tuners have access to an engineering lab...


If longevity is really a part of it, I wouldn't mind cutting out 20,000 miles out of an engine that normally lasts 200,000+ for more power.
Seems like a fair trade off, but how would you determine how long something will last?

Also what platform is this 40+whp perk on? The first thing that came to mind is the 335i..

[325icintn]

1) 4) OBDII is easier than you realize. Germany, Italy, and France have all been there, done that, with BMWs. You would be surprised what you may find if you just search on Google.Name one affordable self-tune option for e36 obd2 from any country you want. I don't think a simple language barrier is causing all obd2 owners to go standalone or pro tuner.

[Silex]

From what I've read here, these engines can take 8psi of boost on stock internals with no detrimental effects to the engine. The magic here lies in the lower compression numbers received from a thicker head gasket. This goes to show how strong the stock block truly is. Definitely a detuned engine in terms of software, but most certainly not in terms of hardware!

[325icintn]

From what I've read here, these engines can take 8psi of boost on stock internals with no detrimental effects to the engine. The magic here lies in the lower compression numbers received from a thicker head gasket. This goes to show how strong the stock block truly is. Definitely a detuned engine in terms of software, but most certainly not in terms of hardware!With a proper tune, you can run 8psi on the stock headgasket too. People have run much higher boost on thicker HG's.

[Robstah]

Name one affordable self-tune option for e36 obd2 from any country you want. I don't think a simple language barrier is causing all obd2 owners to go standalone or pro tuner.

Wanna bet?

[325icintn]

Wanna bet on what? Do you have a name for me?

[Robstah]

Wanna bet on what? Do you have a name for me?

Here's one for ya:

Bjoern Stoeckel

[markesq]

Nothing promising..:dunno

http://www.linkedin.com/in/bjornstockel

[Silex]

^ LOL, what?

[325icintn]

Here's one for ya:

Bjoern StoeckelHow about a little more info. Do you have a link? a product?

[Silex]

I didn't realize that my thread had other BMW enthusiast's interests at heart. I'm glad to see others are taking a proactive approach to figuring out how to tune their own cars instead of relying on tuners who "perform their magic" and never share how they do it.

[325icintn]

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=572173&highlight=tuning+413
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=741305&highlight=tuning+413
and of course
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=431228&highlight=413+ecu
Plenty of interest.

[Silex]

So E36 M3's are what are referred to as "413 DME" ECU's? Is there a chart of what BMW has what ECU? What does DME stand for? I'm too new at this :(

[markesq]

^ LOL, what?

I googled the name looking for the promised DIY program.

[Matt]

'95 M3s have either a 413 or a 506 (same ECU, different software)

DME = digital motor electronics = ECU

In '96, BMW switched to Siemens OBDII complient ECUs.

[zeromagnus]

So E36 M3's are what are referred to as "413 DME" ECU's? Is there a chart of what BMW has what ECU? What does DME stand for? I'm too new at this :(
I know as far as Z3 Roadsters and Coupes are concerned, but it is probably the same for other BMWs with the same engine:

M44 - Bosch DME M5.2
M52 - Siemens DME MS 41.1
M52 TU - Siemens DME MS 42.1
M54 - Siemens DME MS 43.0
S52 - Siemens DME MS 41.1
S54 - Siemens DME MS S54

[Robstah]

I know as far as Z3 Roadsters and Coupes are concerned, but it is probably the same for other BMWs with the same engine:

M44 - Bosch DME M5.2
M52 - Siemens DME MS 41.1
M52 TU - Siemens DME MS 42.1
M54 - Siemens DME MS 43.0
S52 - Siemens DME MS 41.1
S54 - Siemens DME MS S54

S52 is technically a Siemens MS41.2 box.

[bennyfizzle]

S52 is technically a Siemens MS41.2 box.

thats cool, now whats this about this stoeckl fella

[zeromagnus]

S52 is technically a Siemens MS41.2 box.
Oh? So my Bentley is wrong? That makes me sad. My faith in my Bentley has been destroyed.

Do you know of where I can read up more on this subject?

[SiGmA]

zeromagnus, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the Bentley is wrong about a lot of things. TIS FTMFW!

[///36M]

It is generally argued that 1) the few number of BMW's sold, 2) the more limited DIY tuner attitude of the average new bmw purchaser, 3) the lack of significant gains by software alone given the nature of a well-tuned non-FI production car, and 4) a possibly more complicated/protected ecu all combine to limit the profitability of selling/creating/sharing a tuning interface.

I have always argued that pro tuners would get alot more business if DIY tuning was available. Reason being, many would install the FI system and try to tune, then quickly become either stuck or want that extra 20% of power that someone like NickG or Karl Hugh or JimC can safely find. The result would be alot more FI bmws buying alot more parts and seeking out quality tuners and dyno time. I guess I'm preaching to a choir of deaf ears ...

I sorta agree, but all I would do is take your tune, (assuming you basically had the same setup) and tweak it for my car. You could still pay to get the car tuned, but it would no longer be necessary to bring it to the names you alluded to. Any reputable tuner I am sure could then get more out of your car, he wouldn't have to be BMW specific. So basically, I don't see how those people wouldn't lose business.

That being said, I have no clue why someone doesn't bite the bullet and produce these things. Whoever did it would sell 1000's of them. I honestly wonder if there is collusion between the top guns of tuning, being that there are so few, to keep such a product off the market. I really do not see how an argument could be made that this product would not turn a decent profit.

DSMLINK sells for ~500 bucks. So the usual 70% BMW roundel increase should take effect and we should have a product.


Totally off topic: Bennyfizzle i hate your sig with a passion, it screws with and hurts my head when I read your posts. If by some way of enlightenment you decided to change it I would be forever greatful. :stickoutt

[bennyfizzle]

not gonna happen, for those exact reasons :rofl

[zeromagnus]

zeromagnus, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the Bentley is wrong about a lot of things. TIS FTMFW!
I just searched for TIS...technical information system...and I just found a version of it online, now I have something new to play with, thanks! :redspot

:buttrock

[zeromagnus]

correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the majority of information out there, especially the information provided by techno, is for OBDI (I haven't gone through the entire ~500 post thread yet, so I may be wrong)

I think we should start concentrating on OBDII

also, I think the information is scattered so much, that the idea of having to read insignificant post after insignificant post about legality or whatever makes the task daunting...
therefore, we need a concentrated database of useful information, and keep the tangents to other threads

[325icintn]

I think we wait to see what Robstah is talking about.

[325icintn]

Totally off topic: Bennyfizzle i hate your sig with a passion, it screws with and hurts my head when I read your posts.I thought he lived in Australia.

[///36M]

I thought he lived in Australia.

Might as well, living in the capital region of New York State.

The more I think about it the more that makes sense.....