How About This - Very Interesting

[MrOffshore]

I just got done reviewing my latest Consumer Reports (January 2008), and found a very interesting article I would like to share with you regarding "Owner Satisfaction"

They listed 39 automobiles that people surveyed said they would buy that car again or as "most satisfying"...of the 39 only 6 were American made automobiles. In the same article they listed 22 cars that were classified as "least satsifying"...20 of the 22 automobiles were American. The only two foreign built automobiles were the Suzuki Grand Vitara adn the Mazda B-Series. Ratings cover the three most recent model years of each automobile.

Now, if I was an executive at any of the three big American Automakers I think my stomach would be churning...I realize that Consumer Reports is a somewhat biased magazine and that you need to sift through what you read to get "all" the facts, but this is a survey taken by more than 415,000 individuals...so this can't be too biased.

Factors such as price, performance, reliability, comfort and enjoyment were taken into consideration. The list of 22 least satsifying automobiles received less than 50% satisfaction rating.

The highest rating went to the Toyota Prius with 92% of the owners being satisfied with their automobile enough to purchase it again. What this forum will find interesting is that the BMW 335i (RWD) was the second highest rated automobile on the list with 91% acceptance...trailing not too far behind was the 330i/335i (sedan) with an 85% acceptance rating. Worth noting is that these are the only two BMW's on the list, so while the 3 Series may be the most affordable in the BMW lineup (at least until the 1 Series officially debuts) it has extremely high satisfaction ratings...this comes as no surprise to anyone that drives a 3 Series though.

Other cars worth noting are:
Lexus LS460 (88)
Acura TL Type S (85) - that's not your standard TL...so keep that in mind
Infiniti M35 - RWD (83)
Porsche Boxster (90)
Porsche Cayman (89)
Chevrolet Corvette (88)
Mini Cooper S (88)
Honda S2000 (86)
Porsche 911 Carrera (85)
Audi S4 (81)


So in closing...my real point of this is twofold, pointing out how smart we are for choosing to drive a car that is so highly rated and the real point worth discussing, what is wrong with the American automaker?? Are the days of glory gone forever or will there be a rebirth for the American automaker? What do you think needs to be done to fix the problem?

[brokenbimmer]

I think there are a few examples of US automakers doing things right, the Corvette being number one. But US Automakers don't repeat their successful practices elsewhere. When they do get a new successful line (like the original Saturn), they go back to their old practices, rob the profits, and let it die.

It's the same with assembly plants. Productivity means nothing. Executives will close a productive plant in one area in order to keep a less productive plant open for my$teriou$ per$onal rea$on$. Corporate politics stiffle growth and poison the process. And unions don't exactly encourage productivity.

And then there's customer focus. They don't give us what we want. They just don't get it.

All I know is this: I've had Fords, Chevys, Hyundais, an Isuzu, a Mazda, Dodges, Hondas, and VWs. Now finally, this BMW is the car that I love to drive every day. If a US automaker could give me that, I'd buy their car.

[aftp302]

And unions don't exactly encourage productivity.

You hit it on the head there.

Add that to less than desirable designs and failure to focus on the customer and you have it.

Oh, and they'll never be able to compete if they keep giving $10,000 rebates with 0% financing for 5 years on $30k cars. They can't do that and continue to pay HUGE union labor costs and then expect to get any good R&D. They simply can't afford it.

And one more thing, I think all the US makers also need to kill their "sister" brands; i.e. Ford needs to get rid of Lincoln and Mercury. They waste too much time and R&D "tweaking" a car with different trim to maintain a brand that has outlived it's usefulness.

[Ty Vil]

Prius owners are a damn cult I swear.

[mryakan]

Prius owners are a damn cult I swear.
Do Prius cars come with an electric scooter in the trunk instead of a spare.:D

[J3 L U N T]

Prius owners are a damn cult I swear.

and you think BMWs arent?

[trek1500]

Interesting to know that my car is on the list...I have always wanted a BMW ever since I was in college...Years ago..even when Bimmers were considered the car of choice among yuppies, I still didn't bite but always found myself harboring a secret desire to have one one day...well now I have one and I can see why the satisfaction ratings are so high! This is unlike any car I've ever driven before...One time I had a Mercedes 190E and found it to be a good vehicle but with it's problems..especially with the A/C..

Although I have seen numerous postings on various issues regarding the 335i I am still a newbie in this regard and will keep everyone posted as to my experiences...I've logged about 700 miles on this car so far and have had it for about 3 weeks so I'm a still a "rookie" in regards to this forum..

Keep up the comments because I find them very useful and important!

[MrOffshore]

Without doubt unions have created irreversible problems for the American automaker...if you've ever been in a plant and seen the horrors that unions protect it's easier to understand why the American car companies can't seem to make it. Protecting union members caught doing, selling and distributing drugs on premise...the attitude that it's not my job, look at my job description, the union won't let me do that...it's all ridiculous. Unions had their useful time, but they've since abused the system and created major problems.

Unions aren't the only problems however, I think most of the issues start at the top and flow down...it's just a damn shame when this country used to be known for building some awesome cars and it just continues to slip away. I agree the Corvette and a handful of other cars have made a nice impact but the American automobile manufacturer is not in tune with it's consumer...they just don't have a clue.

[laurenty]

What this forum will find interesting is that the BMW 335i (RWD) was the second highest rated automobile on the list with 91% acceptanceDoes the report say anything about the 328i?

[Scottward]

Does the report say anything about the 328i?

Yes, the comment was that owners found it much slower than the 335i. :rofl:

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Mad Dragon]

...what is wrong with the American automaker?? Are the days of glory gone forever or will there be a rebirth for the American automaker? What do you think needs to be done to fix the problem?Chevy's new Malibu looks like a step in the right direction.

[mryakan]

Yes, the comment was that owners found it much slower than the 335i. :rofl:

Sorry, couldn't resist.
did the study find some 335 owners to be too snobby?:nono

[Bama335]

Chevy's new Malibu looks like a step in the right direction.

agreed - GM has always taken hits from consumers for poor interior materials, and when I saw the Malibu LS V6 at the auto show last month, I was surprised at the improved quality of interior materials. No, it's not the car for us, but it's a definite step in the right direction.

Price was $20K, less than Camry and Accord. Who knows, they may gain some marketshare with the Camry off the CR recommended list due to tranny issues (which my wife's ES also has)

[Blue Streek]

did the study find some 335 owners to be too snobby?:nono
Yeah, what's with those snobby 335 owners? Geeez! ;)

[mryakan]

Yeah, what's with those snobby 335 owners? Geeez! ;)
hahaha :stickoutt.

[MrOffshore]

The 328i was not listed...but that doesn't mean it's not a competent automobilve...truth be known I went to my dealer to buy a 328xi and when they didn't have any it was either a 528xi or a 335xi...I wasn't going to wait and I didn't want to order...I wanted the car that day...I went with the 335xi...it didn't really feel that much smaller than the 5 and it definitely performed better...ride was better too, not as soft, but definitely more refined...now a 535 may be a different story, but that's more car than I need.

As for the Malibu, I haven't seen it yet...but take the new Camaro for example...they show it to us two years ago, everyone thinks it's cool and two years later it still isn't in showrooms...can you say "mssing the bus"? They have some OK concept cars that the public likes...they think this gives them insite as to what the public wants...but what the public wants are THE concept cars...not the aftermath that goes into the production model. Why can't they seem to get that. Look at what's selling in the Japanese adn European market and take cues from those models.

American auto manufacteres seem to keep models around too long without the necesary facelifts to keep the public interested...look at the Fiero, Camaro (last body style), Firebird...it killed them off...why aren't their design departments held accountable for these disasters? Chrysler has the best American designers...but they build crap. PT Cruiser...an inspirational car...Chevy comes out with its version YEARS too late and miles short on the design aspect...the HHR is a loser all the way around...it was doomed before it was built....aside from the panel version it's just not inspiring...it's a blatent attempt to capture a few of the PT Cruiser buyers. We could go on all night listing the failures...but it would be pointless.

Ford has done well lately with the Fusion, Milan, Edge, and Lincoln counterparts, but the rest of their lineup is pretty weak unless you want a truck. Five to eight years ago who would have thought that Toyota was have a great selling half ton pickup truck that gives the big three run for the money? The Japanese just take something and make it better....Americans tend to rest on their laurels far too long. We have the know how...we have the ability...after all didn't we create the six million dollar man??

[Beer Goggles]

There aren't too many concept cars that go from prototype to show rooms that are cheap. Ford GT, maybe the Viper.

It's not rare to wait 3 years or more.

[MrOffshore]

There aren't too many concept cars that go from prototype to show rooms that are cheap. Ford GT, maybe the Viper.

It's not rare to wait 3 years or more.

I understand your point, but they come out with a nice concept car...aesthetics and then the actual production car falls far short of the direction the designer was going. This is all too common. American car companies average 3 years to bring a new model to market from start to finish, the Japanese can do it in 18 months...half the time.

[Beer Goggles]

I understand your point, but they come out with a nice concept car...aesthetics and then the actual production car falls far short of the direction the designer was going. This is all too common. American car companies average 3 years to bring a new model to market from start to finish, the Japanese can do it in 18 months...half the time.

Its not a new model it's a new car. The GT-R has been in the news for about 3 years. They all take time. This isn't redesigning a platform, it's starting a new one.

Most cars fall short of their concept car start. It's called not wanting to pay $100,000 for a $20,000 car.

I think American cars are going to start being a little more competitive soon. I read a brilliant article somewhere explaining why we need to bring back old name plates to get american drivers back. It's very true, aside from a short list the "need to have it' factor of our cars is low.

I really only "want' a few
Corvette
Solstice (I like that little thing)
Jeep Wrangler (current highest sales in that entire company...who would have thought a good SUV for $24,000 would sell...duh)
CTS V
300C SRT



Also I think the new Accord is horrible. The coupe looks better buts still strange. Camry is the best looking family car, but I really like the Astra and Malibu (astra looks better) I just don't think they are big enough like the Camry.


I'll wait to see if the Camaro looks good, I hope it does. Same thing with the Charger.

[MrOffshore]

Its not a new model it's a new car. The GT-R has been in the news for about 3 years. They all take time. This isn't redesigning a platform, it's starting a new one.

Most cars fall short of their concept car start. It's called not wanting to pay $100,000 for a $20,000 car.

I think American cars are going to start being a little more competitive soon. I read a brilliant article somewhere explaining why we need to bring back old name plates to get american drivers back. It's very true, aside from a short list the "need to have it' factor of our cars is low.

I really only "want' a few
Corvette
Solstice (I like that little thing)
Jeep Wrangler (current highest sales in that entire company...who would have thought a good SUV for $24,000 would sell...duh)
CTS V
300C SRT



Also I think the new Accord is horrible. The coupe looks better buts still strange. Camry is the best looking family car, but I really like the Astra and Malibu (astra looks better) I just don't think they are big enough like the Camry.


I'll wait to see if the Camaro looks good, I hope it does. Same thing with the Charger.

Points well taken, but the looks of the car don't necessarily weigh heavy on the price tag...it just seems that the concept cars look so intriguing then they fall so short when it comes to production...I know the concept cars with big 22" wheels will effect price to a point, but if you plan on making 4 wheels per car and plan on selling 300,000 of them the math says the wheels, even big ones would be affordable (hell buy them in China!!).

New platform or not, the Japanese can put a NEW model to market in 18 months compared to our 36 months...that's ridiculous.

I agree the Honda Accord has fallen short the last two designs...Acura (Honda in Japan) is doing quite well with some very nice designs...the TL is very nice...even the RL doesn't look as nice as the more affordable TL and it's going to be available in AWD soon...with a new body design (that's what took it off my short list...I didn't want to wait and I didn't want a one year old car with an outdated body style...just another hit to my cars net worth).

The Camry is a nice car...tranny problems from what is reported above...but overall it's nice, quick, fairly roomy...wanna limo size car look at the Avalon...man, how do they do it, it's a nice looking car with tons of room...would be nice if the 5 Series BMW had as much room. I think the Avalon is nicer than most of the Lexus options out there right now. In the end I took the Camry off my short list as they just weren't dealing on the ones I was looking at...the sport model is nice looking, but they really need nicer wheels on it from the factory. Handling is fair, but not even in the same catagory as the 3 Series...same for the performance...270 hp vs. 300...might only be a 30hp difference but feels more like 100. I also really wanted AWD...more companies need to see the value in AWD across the board, not just in foul weather situations.

I've owned a Jeep...won't own another...had nothing but problems and got absolutely no support, even under warranty. The dealership was bad and so was the corporation...it turned me off on Chrysler/Jeep for good, though I will say my V8 Grand Cherokee was fast...capable in snow, drove nice, but just simply fell apart in every aspect, (tranny, gearbox, A/C, etc, etc, etc.)

[Ty Vil]

and you think BMWs arent?
The average BMW owner is not the one that posts here.

Prius owners are all whack jobs though I swear.

[335eye]

What's going on with Honda?

1. I saw the new Accord yesterday - real ugly from the back.
2. I can't remember the last time I saw the RL sedan on the road.
3. Does anyone hear know about the new NSX? If so, please tell me.
4. Even their F1 team seems all screwed up.

[DrRT]

I just got done reviewing my latest Consumer Reports (January 2008), and found a very interesting article I would like to share with you regarding "Owner Satisfaction"

They listed 39 automobiles that people surveyed said they would buy that car again or as "most satisfying"...of the 39 only 6 were American made automobiles. In the same article they listed 22 cars that were classified as "least satsifying"...20 of the 22 automobiles were American. The only two foreign built automobiles were the Suzuki Grand Vitara adn the Mazda B-Series. Ratings cover the three most recent model years of each automobile.

Now, if I was an executive at any of the three big American Automakers I think my stomach would be churning...I realize that Consumer Reports is a somewhat biased magazine and that you need to sift through what you read to get "all" the facts, but this is a survey taken by more than 415,000 individuals...so this can't be too biased.

Factors such as price, performance, reliability, comfort and enjoyment were taken into consideration. The list of 22 least satsifying automobiles received less than 50% satisfaction rating.

The highest rating went to the Toyota Prius with 92% of the owners being satisfied with their automobile enough to purchase it again. What this forum will find interesting is that the BMW 335i (RWD) was the second highest rated automobile on the list with 91% acceptance...trailing not too far behind was the 330i/335i (sedan) with an 85% acceptance rating. Worth noting is that these are the only two BMW's on the list, so while the 3 Series may be the most affordable in the BMW lineup (at least until the 1 Series officially debuts) it has extremely high satisfaction ratings...this comes as no surprise to anyone that drives a 3 Series though.

Other cars worth noting are:
Lexus LS460 (88)
Acura TL Type S (85) - that's not your standard TL...so keep that in mind
Infiniti M35 - RWD (83)
Porsche Boxster (90)
Porsche Cayman (89)
Chevrolet Corvette (88)
Mini Cooper S (88)
Honda S2000 (86)
Porsche 911 Carrera (85)
Audi S4 (81)


So in closing...my real point of this is twofold, pointing out how smart we are for choosing to drive a car that is so highly rated and the real point worth discussing, what is wrong with the American automaker?? Are the days of glory gone forever or will there be a rebirth for the American automaker? What do you think needs to be done to fix the problem?


First of all: excellent post.

I tend to discard every opinion consumerreport has about cars since they are not car experts. But you can't argue with a survey of that magnitude. I think they are right on BTW.

I am really glad I didn't buy a Suzuki Grand Sh1tara for my wife. We opted for a CR-V instead and we are happy.

All american cars are garbage, period. The only one that escapes this is the corvette, and not by much. The "big three" (how long can they remain being called big?) will never change their ways since the culture of executive greed over sense and marketing over engineering is ingrained in their very sorry souls. The only hope is for them to burn to the ground and new worthy companies flourish to take their place.

Granted. I have yet to see any such company. Perhaps in the future all we will have are Japanese for the poor and German for the rich.

The 335i was called "perhaps the best all around car in the world" by C&D mag. That says something.

[aftp302]

What's going on with Honda?

1. I saw the new Accord yesterday - real ugly from the back.

+1

I don't know what they were thinking there. The front looks nice, it has an aggressive feel with the squared off front grill. But the rear end is a train wreck. They took too much of the rear light cluster and shifted it around to the side (a-la 5 series) but then the rest of the rear end design just fell flat.

[mryakan]

All american cars are garbage, period. The only one that escapes this is the corvette, and not by much.
True, although the Vette is a great performer, the interior look and quality leaves a lot to be desired. Also American cars in the 70s and earlier had a reputation for being indestructible. My dad was a great fan of the 70s Buick and Chevy sedan and kept owning them well into the 90s. You could go through a brick wall with minimal damage with those cars and they withstood all punishment me and my siblings put them through. Alas, since the 80s, quality and durability of American cars has been crap. As if they build in a warranty timer and as soon as that expires, all hell breaks loose. Nothing seems to be getting better and even Daimler gave up trying to fix shit at Chrysler, that gives you an idea how messed up things are.

[777ER]

What I don't get is why does GM kill the production when one of their car gets built good after a while improving?

Look at the Chevy caprice, camaro, firebird, astro van...and a few more...

It's starting to sound like GM wants to keep their shit that don't stink to themselves and not let anyone have it...

[335eye]

Vette's evolving positively, slowly. Leather wrapped interior option is a good step fwd. New shifter is German'like. Std Vette faster than previous ZO6! Steering still lacks feel. Once that's resolved, if price stays the same, sign me up.

[DrRT]

What I don't get is why does GM kill the production when one of their car gets built good after a while improving?

Look at the Chevy caprice, camaro, firebird, astro van...and a few more...

It's starting to sound like GM wants to keep their shit that don't stink to themselves and not let anyone have it...


Pffft, nonsense!!! There is no nonstinking sh1t from GM. Ok only the Z06 perhaps.

[Beer Goggles]

Vette's evolving positively, slowly. Leather wrapped interior option is a good step fwd. New shifter is German'like. Std Vette faster than previous ZO6! Steering still lacks feel. Once that's resolved, if price stays the same, sign me up.

Our crappy Corvette is a $45K car that competes with $100-$250,000 cars. For the price difference it hard to complain.

[DrRT]

Our crappy Corvette is a $45K car that competes with $100-$250,000 cars. For the price difference it hard to complain.

No it doesn't compete. Why? Because it accelerates on a straight line the same? If that is so I can buy a honda engine and strap it on my daughter's tricycle and create a machine that goes 0-60 mph in 1 second for $5k, so?

[Beer Goggles]

Okay.

[mryakan]

AFAIK (and I am not a fan of American cars by any means), the Vette esp. the Z06 beats almost every other car I've seen reviewed in the sub 150K range in acceleration, skidpad #s, braking and slalom. It's a great bargain that beats many other cars twice or more its price, but as every bargain, there is a catch, and for the Vette it is interior refinement. IMO inside it feels like a sub 30K car not a 45-70K car let alone one that would compete with the likes of Ferrari and Porsche among others, but then if driving performance is all you are about no plush accommodations, then it more than competes. Saying the C6 Vette is only good in a straight line is just plain ignorant (no offense).

[Beer Goggles]

They offer an upgraded interior. You can't have a $150K car with all the same parts for that price. There's a reason why it's cheaper...

[azhrei]

In 1993 I was in the market for a new car. I test drove the base model 'vette. As the salesdroid leaves the lot and turns left, we're chatting about features. He hits a particularly rough spot in the road and the passenger side door panel falls off! (The road in front of the dealership was under construction and he grazed one of those manhole covers from hell (!) sticking up from the pavement!).

Okay, maybe that was an exaggeration. The part of the door panel towards the back of the car had a couple of those plastic grommet-things holding it on and the panel came off of those two. But there must've been others missing, too, because the rear of the door panel sagged under its own weight.

But it sounds much better to say it fell off! :eyecrazy

Needless to say, I didn't buy a 'vette. And I'd be hard-pressed to consider one now. Except maybe the Blue Devil. :alright

The 'vette does well on the skidpad, but I read a review somewhere in which the reviewer wasn't impressed with the suspension. They felt there was too much sway during a slalom run.

And then there's the common knowledge that every man with a Corvette is trying to compensate for their inadequacy in another area. ;)

[DrRT]

AFAIK (and I am not a fan of American cars by any means), the Vette esp. the Z06 beats almost every other car I've seen reviewed in the sub 150K range in acceleration, skidpad #s, braking and slalom. It's a great bargain that beats many other cars twice or more its price, but as every bargain, there is a catch, and for the Vette it is interior refinement. IMO inside it feels like a sub 30K car not a 45-70K car let alone one that would compete with the likes of Ferrari and Porsche among others, but then if driving performance is all you are about no plush accommodations, then it more than competes. Saying the C6 Vette is only good in a straight line is just plain ignorant (no offense).

For the confort level and interior quality, I would much rather have this sub $50k car:

http://www.arielatom.com/

[mryakan]

And then there's the common knowledge that every man with a Corvette is trying to compensate for their inadequacy in another area. ;)
They can't afford a Ferrari? :rolleyes

[335eye]

Lots of old opinions here. The Vette's evolving and getting better. Here's an objective write up.

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=123805/pageNumber=1

[Blue Streek]

There are lot's of faster and better handling cars out there... even American made. Some are way expensive and some are sort of reasonably priced. I still love the 3 series for a whole lot of other reasons that I can realize every time I drive. Yes, I wouldn't mind having a Porche GT2 or similar turbo variant, but I would still love my 3 series for its overall personal value in how I use it every day.

Keep talking about other cars though. It's interesting... One of the reasons that I subscribe to Motor Trend and read other car magazines.

[Beer Goggles]

In 1993 I was in the market for a new car. I test drove the base model 'vette. As the salesdroid leaves the lot and turns left, we're chatting about features. He hits a particularly rough spot in the road and the passenger side door panel falls off! (The road in front of the dealership was under construction and he grazed one of those manhole covers from hell (!) sticking up from the pavement!).

Okay, maybe that was an exaggeration. The part of the door panel towards the back of the car had a couple of those plastic grommet-things holding it on and the panel came off of those two. But there must've been others missing, too, because the rear of the door panel sagged under its own weight.

But it sounds much better to say it fell off! :eyecrazy

Needless to say, I didn't buy a 'vette. And I'd be hard-pressed to consider one now. Except maybe the Blue Devil. :alright

The 'vette does well on the skidpad, but I read a review somewhere in which the reviewer wasn't impressed with the suspension. They felt there was too much sway during a slalom run.

And then there's the common knowledge that every man with a Corvette is trying to compensate for their inadequacy in another area. ;)

Any person that brings up penis and cars is probably lacking or gay. Sports cars are in guys DNA...and since you were looking and want the fastest one I'll say "WHAT'S UP TINY"


The fit/finish has come a long way on 14 years. And I don't really base my opinions of a car on what somebody writes. What Michael Schumacher can feel and the average guy are not the same.

There's a stat somewhere that the majority of drivers think they are above average...when in reality they are average. Most people never push car beyond 6/10s of it's ability. If you've ever been in a race car with a good driver you'll appreciate what those 3/10s extra are.

[JD 6SPEED]

Chevy's new Malibu looks like a step in the right direction.

I also like the new CTS, but fully loaded its $50k USD. 2 MUCH.

[callahan1]

As a former Mustang GT owner, I know the current car is a good example of what an American car company does right. However, allowing it's dealers to rape buyers on price ( 20K over sticker for Shelby GT500, K's over sticker for any specialty car such as Bullitt, Shelby GT, and when the 2005 Mustang GT came out, 5K over sticker being common ) is what's wrong with Ford. Pissing off prospective buyers by these practices only makes one give all Fords a pass when car shopping.

[mryakan]

Any person that brings up penis and cars is probably lacking or gay. Sports cars are in guys DNA...and since you were looking and want the fastest one I'll say "WHAT'S UP TINY"

I read that some studies/surveys were done and concluded that sports cars are considered somewhat of an aphrodisiac by both males and females. So although I agree that the compensation theory is just BS, the fact that men or women use cars to attract (or assist in attracting) the attention of the other sex is IMO a valid point.