Clutch Disengagement Problem

[douglee25]

Car: 1997 M3 - Clutch, throw out bearing, pressure plate, plastic pin for clutch fork, slave cylinder (rebuilt from Advance auto), guibo, shifter bushings all replaced June 2007. 4k miles on since new clutch.

Problem - As the temperature has dropped in the past 2 months or so, it has become more difficult to get into gear on the first try. If I attempt first gear, drop back to neutral (clutch still pushed in), then attempt first gear again, 99% of the time it goes right in. I noticed today that on flat ground, Ebrake off, regular brake off, when attempting first gear, the car rolls forward about 1 - 2 inches. This tells me the clutch is not fully disengaging. After the car is driven about 30 mins or more, the car usually goes into gear on the first try, everytime.

Notes:
1. When I installed the slave, I bled it on the ground with a mity vac and then finished up with a hand bleed before I installed it.
2. Since the shiting has become more difficult, I re-bled with the mity vac. I don't think it made much difference.
3. Pumping the clutch doesn't have an effect on gear selection. I've pumped about 30 times and it doesn't make the gear engage any easier.

Questions:
1. What do you recommend I try first at this point? Re-bleed the slave off of the transmission or on?
2. Could the slave be defective as it was a remanufactured unit?
3. Could the clutch master cylinder be on its way out?

I am almost positive that all the air should be out of the slave by now. By driving on the car for the past 6 months, any air should be gone. It honetly feels like the push rod on the slave is about 1/4" too short.

Any suggestions?

Thanks again.

Doug

[L3000C]

our cars are almost identical...but i have the stock clutch....and i have the same dam problem....ive bleed mine about 10 times, and its only gotten a bit better.....


i dunno what to tell u, im gonna get a new clutch, master cylinder, slave, throwout bearing, pressureplate, and guibo in dec....so ill see if any of those fix my problem.

[NeilM]

Questions:
1. What do you recommend I try first at this point? Re-bleed the slave off of the transmission or on?
2. Could the slave be defective as it was a remanufactured unit?
3. Could the clutch master cylinder be on its way out?
Doug

1. The only way to bleed the slave fully is with it off the transmission so that the bleed nipple is uppermost. I'm not a fan of vacuum bleeders, since they tend to suck in air via the nipple threads and give a false alarm. If you pressure bleed, make sure to constrain the slave actuator rod, or else it'll fly out.

2. Suppose it could be. Stuff happens.

3. Certainly could be; more likely than #2, I'd think.

Does the clutch fully disengage if you pump the pedal?

Neil

[ScotcH]

Do you have a clutch stop?

[Ron97M3]

The symptom of having the clutch not disengaging fully after the car has set but then working better after using the clutch can be air in the clutch slave hydralics. Left to settle the air bubbles come together and the slave doesn't work well, pump it and it works better but still not right!

I had a professional transmission place do my son's Saturn clutch and it had just this problem. When I picked up the car to drive it I struggled to get it into gear and I drove it straight back. When I drove with the trans shop owner the problem was 75% better so I said well if it appears again I will bring it back. Next morning sure enough basically impossible to get in gear untl I pumped the clutch some. Drove it back and he bled it again and said maybe the slave needs to be replaced (FYI honest mechanic). I left it overnight at the shop and when I got it back it was fully good.

There are other possible clutch problems with similiar symptoms. People have posted about a bad pivot ball and spacers? I am not positive what parts those are. I know there is a plastic pivot which should be replaced and on 12/96 and earlier cars apparently the clutch fork has a BMW engineering order
stating it needs to be replaced with a newer model, why I don't know.
I have also read about a BMW engineering report about transmission "catch pins" causing bad shifting? I have read E37 roadster owners complaining of this! I also know from http://www.101projects.com/BMW/index.htm book (good book to buy) that shifter worn bushings should be replaced ($100 parts) when easy to reach with clutch/transmission out because they result in a a marginal shifter which may otherwise make you think you have bad transmission syncros.

[douglee25]

Notes:
1. When I installed the slave, I bled it on the ground with a mity vac and then finished up with a hand bleed before I installed it.
2. Since the shiting has become more difficult, I re-bled with the mity vac. I don't think it made much difference.
3. Pumping the clutch doesn't have an effect on gear selection. I've pumped about 30 times and it doesn't make the gear engage any easier.



1. The only way to bleed the slave fully is with it off the transmission so that the bleed nipple is uppermost. I'm not a fan of vacuum bleeders, since they tend to suck in air via the nipple threads and give a false alarm. If you pressure bleed, make sure to constrain the slave actuator rod, or else it'll fly out.

I'm going to take the slave out tonight and try to hand bleed it again

2. Suppose it could be. Stuff happens.

3. Certainly could be; more likely than #2, I'd think.

I'm with you on this one

Does the clutch fully disengage if you pump the pedal?

See highlight above

Neil

See bold above.

Doug

[douglee25]

Do you have a clutch stop?

Nada, but good thought.

Doug

[douglee25]

The symptom of having the clutch not disengaging fully after the car has set but then working better after using the clutch can be air in the clutch slave hydralics. Left to settle the air bubbles come together and the slave doesn't work well, pump it and it works better but still not right!

I had a professional transmission place do my son's Saturn clutch and it had just this problem. When I picked up the car to drive it I struggled to get it into gear and I drove it straight back. When I drove with the trans shop owner the problem was 75% better so I said well if it appears again I will bring it back. Next morning sure enough basically impossible to get in gear untl I pumped the clutch some. Drove it back and he bled it again and said maybe the slave needs to be replaced (FYI honest mechanic). I left it overnight at the shop and when I got it back it was fully good.

There are other possible clutch problems with similiar symptoms. People have posted about a bad pivot ball and spacers? I am not positive what parts those are. I know there is a plastic pivot which should be replaced and on 12/96 and earlier cars apparently the clutch fork has a BMW engineering order
stating it needs to be replaced with a newer model, why I don't know.
I have also read about a BMW engineering report about transmission "catch pins" causing bad shifting? I have read E37 roadster owners complaining of this! I also know from http://www.101projects.com/BMW/index.htm book (good book to buy) that shifter worn bushings should be replaced ($100 parts) when easy to reach with clutch/transmission out because they result in a a marginal shifter which may otherwise make you think you have bad transmission syncros.

I did replace the plastic pivot when I did the clutch job. There were no washers between the pivot and the bell housing.

Interesting points on the 'catch pins'. Not sure exactly what that is unless you're speaking of the synchros or dog bones that mesh the gears. I did replace all the shifter bushing while the car was apart.

Doug

[ScotcH]

Well, it certainly does sound like a bad slave or master ... the slave is cheap, so might as well replace and see it that does it.

[douglee25]

Well, it certainly does sound like a bad slave or master ... the slave is cheap, so might as well replace and see it that does it.

Well there is a 1 year warranty on it. I could swing by tonight and pick another one up and return the old one. I guess if I'm going through the process of bleeding, I could just as well throw on another one. This probably would help the process of elimination.

Doug

[mreloc]

Doug- how is reverse? I have the same symptoms (exact) 'cept reverse is hard to engage as well when cold.

[douglee25]

Doug- how is reverse? I have the same symptoms (exact) 'cept reverse is hard to engage as well when cold.

Reverse is identical to 1st gear. It's also tough to get into gear until the car warms up. Since the car rolls when I attempt to select a gear, it's obvious that it's not disengaging fully. Now I just have to find the reason why. Up until last week, I never noticed the car rolling forward the inch or so (probably always have the brake applied). At least I'm making some progress.

Doug

[mreloc]

Reverse is identical to 1st gear. It's also tough to get into gear until the car warms up. Since the car rolls when I attempt to select a gear, it's obvious that it's not disengaging fully. Now I just have to find the reason why. Up until last week, I never noticed the car rolling forward the inch or so (probably always have the brake applied). At least I'm making some progress.

Doug

Yes, exactly the same for me. If the car inches forward, very easy to get into gear. Please keep us informed if the new slave solves it.

[Ron97M3]

Doug read this thread about catch pins.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73180&referrerid=&highlight=catch+pins

I found out about this by finding a TSB in my BMW service CDs I bought on ebay. The different clutch fork TSB was also interesting. Perhaps to talk to Art at rmeuropean.com about this might help too!

Seems like your a smart guy! When I hear of your troubles it makes me nervous about working on my clutch in the future.

Question --- did you let the plunger fall out of the slave cylinder when you did the clutch? Of course that would allow air in the system and then who knows what here? After your problems and others I will make sure I tape that in place when I take things apart.

[douglee25]

Doug read this thread about catch pins.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73180&referrerid=&highlight=catch+pins

I found out about this by finding a TSB in my BMW service CDs I bought on ebay. The different clutch fork TSB was also interesting. Perhaps to talk to Art at rmeuropean.com about this might help too!

Seems like your a smart guy! When I hear of your troubles it makes me nervous about working on my clutch in the future.

Question --- did you let the plunger fall out of the slave cylinder when you did the clutch? Of course that would allow air in the system and then who knows what here? After your problems and others I will make sure I tape that in place when I take things apart.

I did some searching on the link you posted above. I went to Realoem.com and looked at an E46 M3, build date 9/2003. If you drill down in the transmission line, you will see something they call the locking pin (item 1). The 'catch pins' are acually called 'locking pins' by the diagram. What was happening in that guy's case was the fact that the stick would not center and/or would not even go far enough towards the correct gear because the 'catch pin or locking pin' was stuck inside the bushing bore. I prefer to call them 'plungers' myself and they are associated with the 5th gear and reverse gear fix on the E36. I forgot to mention that I also did the 5th gear and reverse gear fix at the time when the trans was removed. :D The shifter no longer rests in the 5th position when it's cold out. Fortunately/unfortunately this is not my problem. :) Good looking out though.

Doug

Edit: I did some more searching and I stand corrected... there are in fact 'catch pins' which are different from the 5th/reverse gear bushings. They are similar but indeed different. Ignore my post above.

[Ron97M3]

Well good to hear you don't have the catch pin problem.

I will be very interested to have to find out what the problem is so I don't
fall into the same pit myself!

Did you open the clutch hydralics to the air? Which then would allow air in the system? If not then I don't think it should be the slave except I guess a slave can go bad like brake cylinders when it's riding spot is changed with servicing the clutch/brakes.

You said pumping the clutch makes no difference so then it really should be the slave. Well I am lost .... there was a poster which had similiar problems in the last month which end saying it was the pivot in and spacers? I replied asking just what he meant by spacers but got no reply. I will try to find the post/thread now.

[Ron97M3]

A poster named "Temporary" at this link ...

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=861534&highlight=pivot

said ....

ok, I have an update and a solution. Pulled the car on a lift at work and tested the hydraulic system. System worked perfectly. So we pulled the transmission and found the Clutch, p.plate, fork and t.o. bearing all in good condition!

I called Active Autowerke (who I bought the kit from) and explained the situation. Mike asked if I had gotten the washers with my kit to space out the pivot ball. I told him that I didnt, and he sent me a new pivot ball and the washers!!

The car now runs perfect!! No problems shifting at all. Big thanks to AA!

[douglee25]

Well good to hear you don't have the catch pin problem.

I will be very interested to have to find out what the problem is so I don't
fall into the same pit myself!

Did you open the clutch hydralics to the air? Which then would allow air in the system? If not then I don't think it should be the slave except I guess a slave can go bad like brake cylinders when it's riding spot is changed with servicing the clutch/brakes.

You said pumping the clutch makes no difference so then it really should be the slave. Well I am lost .... there was a poster which had similiar problems in the last month which end saying it was the pivot in and spacers? I replied asking just what he meant by spacers but got no reply. I will try to find the post/thread now.


A poster named "Temporary" at this link ...

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=861534&highlight=pivot

said ....

ok, I have an update and a solution. Pulled the car on a lift at work and tested the hydraulic system. System worked perfectly. So we pulled the transmission and found the Clutch, p.plate, fork and t.o. bearing all in good condition!

I called Active Autowerke (who I bought the kit from) and explained the situation. Mike asked if I had gotten the washers with my kit to space out the pivot ball. I told him that I didnt, and he sent me a new pivot ball and the washers!!

The car now runs perfect!! No problems shifting at all. Big thanks to AA!


I did in fact have the system opened to the atmosphere when I swapped the original slave cylinder at the time of the clutch job. As I said before, I bled the slave with it off the car and the bleeder in the 'up' position. I used the mity vac first and finished off with the hand bleeding technique.

I also read that thread that you posted last night. I'm aware of what the washers probably did (spaced out the clutch fork a specified distance which in effect gained more travel when the pedal was pressed) but I know for a fact that I did not remove any when I did the clutch job. This however does not mean that it shouldn't have them. I'd be curious to see if there were certain years with or without the washers.

Doug

[AutoXfreak]

Well, it certainly does sound like a bad slave or master ... the slave is cheap, so might as well replace and see it that does it.

Absolutely Right!

Replace the Slave and see if that helps, if not the slave then the Master is probably dieing.

The seals in the slave or master are allowing fluid past the piston. So you are not building full pressure when you depress the clutch.

Its really quite simple...

/thread... :alright

[douglee25]

Update:

I went to pick up a new slave at Advance Auto. The unit I bought in June has a 1 year warranty so I figured I'd buy another one and return the old 'defective' unit. Turns out they have to order it and it won't be in till tomorrow.

Despite not having the slave, I decided to pull the slave out and hand bleed it. I bled it about a dozen times with the bleeder pointing upwards. I didn't observe any air bubbles while doing this. After I reinstalled the slave, I tested the clutch while the car was on ramps. It went right into gear. Sweet. So I lower the car and proceed to do about 6 stop/starts in the street. Everything seemed to be working good. I tried observing if the car rolled forward an inch or so when I engaged 1st gear. It did not move. On the 7th or so try, the car is back to its old self again. It's still tough to get into gear and it's rolling about an inch again.

So at this point, I suppose it's a crap shoot if it's the slave or the master cylinder. I would think it's got to be one of them since the clutch felt good for about 2 minutes. The slave will be in tomorrow and I will try to replace it before friday.

Any other thoughts?

Doug

[mreloc]

Doug- I forgot to ask a basic question- how is the shifting when the engine is off. If it is still difficult, the problem is not the clutch hydraulics, is it?

[douglee25]

Doug- I forgot to ask a basic question- how is the shifting when the engine is off. If it is still difficult, the problem is not the clutch hydraulics, is it?

When the engine is off, the shifting is like butta :D

Doug

[NeilM]

I also read that thread that you posted last night. I'm aware of what the washers probably did (spaced out the clutch fork a specified distance which in effect gained more travel when the pedal was pressed) but I know for a fact that I did not remove any when I did the clutch job. This however does not mean that it shouldn't have them. I'd be curious to see if there were certain years with or without the washers.

Doug

Just to put this to rest, there are no washers under the pivot pin in any E36 years as far as I know or can find on RealOEM. My guess on AA's recommendation is that this was to adapt a different clutch/flywheel setup that has a non-standard stack-up length.

Incidentally the same plastic pivot pin is used in a huge variety of BMW models past and present (see http://************/33mv4m if you're curious). However the 850Ci uses a stainless steel pivot pin with the same dimensions that can be substituted in our cars.

Neil

[douglee25]

Just to put this to rest, there are no washers under the pivot pin in any E36 years as far as I know or can find on RealOEM. My guess on AA's recommendation is that this was to adapt a different clutch/flywheel setup that has a non-standard stack-up length.

Incidentally the same plastic pivot pin is used in a huge variety of BMW models past and present (see http://************/33mv4m if you're curious). However the 850Ci uses a stainless steel pivot pin with the same dimensions that can be substituted in our cars.

Neil

Good to know. Thanks.

Doug

[Ron97M3]

It makes sense that the spacers are for a non-stock clutch, just wasn't sure since no reply in other thread.

Sounds to me like it must be a bad slave which is sucking in some air. After you replaced the clutch the riding position of the slave plunger changed in the old slave cylinder. The new riding place of the plugger causes the old plugger seal to be worn/cut by the build up of hydralic fluid dust and dirt on the inner cylinder wall of the slave. Then a small leak occurs sucking in air and expelling some fluid. Only problem with this theory is I would expect a small amount of fluid sweapage from the slave, do you have that?

[douglee25]

It makes sense that the spacers are for a non-stock clutch, just wasn't sure since no reply in other thread.

Sounds to me like it must be a bad slave which is sucking in some air. After you replaced the clutch the riding position of the slave plunger changed in the old slave cylinder. The new riding place of the plugger causes the old plugger seal to be worn/cut by the build up of hydralic fluid dust and dirt on the inner cylinder wall of the slave. Then a small leak occurs sucking in air and expelling some fluid. Only problem with this theory is I would expect a small amount of fluid sweapage from the slave, do you have that?

I changed the slave at the time of the clutch job back in June 2007. The slave in there right now is the new one. There is no fluid leaking at all. The fluid is probably leaking past the piston (inside the slave) when the pedal is depressed which won't fully release the clutch.

Doug

[Ron97M3]

got me Doug I don't know what it is!

Seems you have all the bases covered but must be something!

Make sure to post here as to waht the problem proves to be, as I surely
don't want to run into it after I do my clutch.

[douglee25]

I went to pick up the slave today and it didn't come in. Apparently the person I dealt with yesterday misread what part house it was being shipped from. I don't think I'll have a chance to install it until Saturday or Sunday.

I'll keep you all posted.

Doug

[Ron97M3]

I bet if you would have ordered the slave from www.rmeuropean.com it would
have got there quicker and been cheaper!

[douglee25]

I bet if you would have ordered the slave from www.rmeuropean.com it would
have got there quicker and been cheaper!

You're probably right. I just checked pricing and they were about the same. The only reason why I went local was because my current warranty is through Advance Auto.

Doug

[douglee25]

Update #2

I swapped out the slave cylinder today. The problem still exists. I ended up taking the old slave rod, cutting it and welding in a piece to lengthen it approximately 1/4". Originally I had thought the lengthened push rod would increase the overall stroke of the slave, but in retrospect, I believe the stroke of the slave is determined by the stroke of the clutch master cylinder. Because the clutch master cylinder's stroke has not changed, the slave stroke probably has not changed. The problem still existed with the extended rod as well.

At this point logic would tell you to replace the clutch master cylinder. I have a sneaking suspicion that this will not fix the problem. I pulled the dash panel to have a look at the master cylinder and it appears I have the old style (pre 5/97 longer style) that looks like it's going to be a bear to replace.

Any other thoughts?

Doug

[mreloc]

Sorry that didn't work Doug. The only other thing I've heard that can make 1st gear hard to engage is an input spline that needs more lubrication. Obviously, I think the master cylinder would be the next thing I would try. Thanks for keeping us updated.

[douglee25]

Sorry that didn't work Doug. The only other thing I've heard that can make 1st gear hard to engage is an input spline that needs more lubrication. Obviously, I think the master cylinder would be the next thing I would try. Thanks for keeping us updated.

That crossed my mind as well. When I did the clutch back in June, I made sure to put plenty of lithium grease on the splines as well as the quill tube for the throw out bearing. I am boggled at the moment. I'll tell you what, I am definitely not looking forward to replacing that master cylinder.

Doug

[douglee25]

Question (just throwing this out there):

If I put the car into 1st gear, clutch still depressed, I can shift to any gear without issues. Any gear.... 1,2,3,4,5,R and they all go in fine as long as I don't let off the clutch.

Wouldn't this lead you to believe it's not hydraulic related? Say in fact the master cylinder seals are allowing fluid to flow past the piston. The clutch doesn't fully release but with some finesse, it goes into gear. If the transmission is shifted to neutal and then to another gear, the clutch should not be in a fully released position still, correct? If the clutch wasn't released, one would think engaging any other gear would be difficult, but it's not?

Doug

Edit: Car is running during this test.

[ScotcH]

Question (just throwing this out there):

If I put the car into 1st gear, clutch still depressed, I can shift to any gear without issues. Any gear.... 1,2,3,4,5,R and they all go in fine as long as I don't let off the clutch.

Wouldn't this lead you to believe it's not hydraulic related? Say in fact the master cylinder seals are allowing fluid to flow past the piston. The clutch doesn't fully release but with some finesse, it goes into gear. If the transmission is shifted to neutal and then to another gear, the clutch should not be in a fully released position still, correct? If the clutch wasn't released, one would think engaging any other gear would be difficult, but it's not?

Doug

Is this with the car on or off? If it's off, then obviously it does not prove anything ... you can do that without the clutch in at all (try it!). if it's with the car ON, well, you might be on to something, but I don't know what :)

I would still bet on hydraulics not allowing the clutch to fully disengage. It just doesn't seem reasonable that it would stop working for any other reason, unless maybe you pressure plate somehow got foobared?

[ScotcH]

Just thought of something ... I seem to remember that the lever itself (the pivoting release arm) has been known to fail (bent maybe?). I guess the only way to diagnose that would be to pull the tranny though.

Can you maybe fab up some sort of slave push rod block that you could use to test if the hydraulics are applying pressure properly? A U shaped metal strap across the rod to stop it from moving bolted to the slave body, then press the clutch, and see if it still moves even with the rod travel blocked?

[douglee25]

Is this with the car on or off? If it's off, then obviously it does not prove anything ... you can do that without the clutch in at all (try it!). if it's with the car ON, well, you might be on to something, but I don't know what :)

I would still bet on hydraulics not allowing the clutch to fully disengage. It just doesn't seem reasonable that it would stop working for any other reason, unless maybe you pressure plate somehow got foobared?

I forgot to mention, the car should be running when doing the test I mentioned. I will replace the master cylinder anyway, but I'm not 100% sure it's going to fix the issue.

Doug

[douglee25]

Just thought of something ... I seem to remember that the lever itself (the pivoting release arm) has been known to fail (bent maybe?). I guess the only way to diagnose that would be to pull the tranny though.

Can you maybe fab up some sort of slave push rod block that you could use to test if the hydraulics are applying pressure properly? A U shaped metal strap across the rod to stop it from moving bolted to the slave body, then press the clutch, and see if it still moves even with the rod travel blocked?

It's possible the clutch fork could have bent, but I honestly don't think that's the problem. When I had it out, the fork is basically gusseted down the side. It would seem to be highly unlikely for it to fail. It's hard to tell from this picture, but the metal actually wraps around the back side of the fork forming a gusset.

Doug

[douglee25]

Some more details....

With the engine running, push in the clutch, snap the throttle to 2k, let the car come back to idle, push stick to 1st gear... it goes right in.

With the engine running, push in the cluch, DO NOT snap throttle, push stick to 1st gear... the gear does not engage.


At this point I am almost thinking the clutch disk is binding on the input shaft (disc either bent or from the lack of lube). When the clutch is depressed and the throttle is snapped, I believe the vibration from the crank spinning, combined with the pressure on the diaphram from the throw out bearing, causes the clutch disc to fully release. The other thing that I noticed is that when I release the clutch, I am able to feel a slight 'pop' in the shifter if my hand is on it. The 'pop' almost feels as though the clutch disc has come past the point where it sticks on the input shaft.

I am going to retest this scenario again after work. I will probably still swap out the master cylinder just to eliminate it, but I'm leaning towards a mechanical issue rather than the hydraulic side of things.

Doug

[Ron97M3]

There are two TIS report related to clutch problems.

One is the clutch fork should be replaced on all 12/96 and earlier build date cars. Apparently there is a different manufacturing mark on the later and earlier clutch forks. The TIS reports doesn't say why it needs to be replaced.
Of course one would think metal fatique and perhaps bending?

Then there is another report about replacing catch pins. Apparently the shifting can be mess up by these somehow. The pins are very cheap but I believe their internal to the transmission. So I don't know how hard they are to replace or what is required. The report indicates this spans E36 cars but I have only heard of the E37 roadsters reporting this problem in our forum.

Doug I doubt it's your master cylinder as you have no fluid leaking and I would
think you would get almost no slave movement if you had a problem there.
Also pumping on the clutch would make a difference which I don't think you
have right?

man-o-man I am sorry you are having this bitch of a problem and boy am I
waiting to learn what is causing it! I figure the same thing could happen to
me and I surely don't like this kind of problem!

[douglee25]

12/10 - Ordered clutch master cylinder from Advance Auto. The picture didn't appear to be the correct one, but I ordered it anyway (appears to be screw in style vs. clip style). It should be in by Thursday.

12/11 - Ordered clip style master cylinder from RMeuropean.com along with two clutch pedal bushings and a new clutch hose. It should also arrive Thursday.

I plan on installing one of these master cylinders on Saturday and will post results.

As another side note, I have found that just holding the clutch to the floor between 5 - 10 seconds with no rev of the throttle, the car goes right into gear. It appears more and more that the clutch is hanging up on the input shaft.

I will keep you all posted what happens with the install.

Doug

[fsmtnbiker]

So - Just to summarize:

This problem did not exist before clutch replacement, but does now.

This would lead me to believe that one of the components that you replaced is faulty (ie, not hydraulics). A defective pressure plate is certainly a possibility.

Just my thoughts.

[Ron97M3]

Doug a while back I bought a BMW OEM service software set and installed it on my computer. The BMW windows programming is poor and unfortunately will not allow one to cut and paste but only print screen shots/pictures. Anyway I printed a number of clutch problems service reports which may be your problem. So here I go.

---------

#1 - 23 03 98 (347) Date 10/98 Transmission difficult to shift/diagnostic aid all models series.

Complaint: Gears difficult to engage especially !st gear, gear shift mechanism catches.

Causes can be Taper spline of transmission input shaft not greased or grease dried out. Original grease (Microlube GL261 BMW used until 4/1998) has been shown to fail under high bell housing heat. Superceded by use "Esso UNIREX S2 grease" part number 83 23 9 416 138.

Diagnosis
1. Run engine at idle speed
2. Depress Clutch
3. Try to engage 1st gear from neutral
IF 1st gear is difficult to engage, hold the gear lever at the resistance point (about half total travel) with constant force and then switch the engine ignition off with the other hand.

IF after the engine is turned off 1st gear engages completely without additional-more pressure, there is a problem in the clutch.
If this is true they say to clean the input shaft of old grease and renew the drive plate. Grease with new grease
Question: is the drive plate aka the clutch disc?

IF after the engine is turned off 1st gear doesn not engages completely but remains at the resistance point, there is a problem in the outer gearshift mechanism or in the transmission.

-----

#2 Trouble shooting the clutch

(just the possible that fits your difficult to engage gears issue)

a) Lining of clutch plate broken

b) guide bearing for input shaft defective

c) leak in clutch hydralic system

d) leaf springs of clutch bent down

e) unit binds on guide sleeve

---

#3 21 01 97 (251) date 8/1997 Diagnosis Clutches all models with manual gearbox

a) new clutch liners in 1996 to improve issue.

b) as of January 1997 an optimized release lever is installed which identified by a punched number 2 on the interior side. part number 21 51 1 223 302

----

#4 11 04 97 (242) Date 8/1997 Alignment Dowels missing.

can cause

a) clutch shudder or poor disengagement
b) input shaft noise
c) gears jumping
d) snagging gearshift

dowels are part number 11 11 1 743 118 for e36 m3

[douglee25]

So - Just to summarize:

This problem did not exist before clutch replacement, but does now.

This would lead me to believe that one of the components that you replaced is faulty (ie, not hydraulics). A defective pressure plate is certainly a possibility.

Just my thoughts.

The problem did not exist before or after the cluth replacement. The problem has just come about recently (30 - 45 days). I had close to 5k miles before the problem showed up.

Doug

[douglee25]

Doug a while back I bought a BMW OEM service software set and installed it on my computer. The BMW windows programming is poor and unfortunately will not allow one to cut and paste but only print screen shots/pictures. Anyway I printed a number of clutch problems service reports which may be your problem. So here I go.

---------

#1 - 23 03 98 (347) Date 10/98 Transmission difficult to shift/diagnostic aid all models series.

Complaint: Gears difficult to engage especially !st gear, gear shift mechanism catches.

Causes can be Taper spline of transmission input shaft not greased or grease dried out. Original grease (Microlube GL261 BMW used until 4/1998) has been shown to fail under high bell housing heat. Superceded by use "Esso UNIREX S2 grease" part number 83 23 9 416 138.

Diagnosis
1. Run engine at idle speed
2. Depress Clutch
3. Try to engage 1st gear from neutral
IF 1st gear is difficult to engage, hold the gear lever at the resistance point (about half total travel) with constant force and then switch the engine ignition off with the other hand.

IF after the engine is turned off 1st gear engages completely without additional-more pressure, there is a problem in the clutch.
If this is true they say to clean the input shaft of old grease and renew the drive plate. Grease with new grease
Question: is the drive plate aka the clutch disc?

IF after the engine is turned off 1st gear doesn not engages completely but remains at the resistance point, there is a problem in the outer gearshift mechanism or in the transmission.

-----

#2 Trouble shooting the clutch

(just the possible that fits your difficult to engage gears issue)

a) Lining of clutch plate broken

b) guide bearing for input shaft defective

c) leak in clutch hydralic system

d) leaf springs of clutch bent down

e) unit binds on guide sleeve

---

#3 21 01 97 (251) date 8/1997 Diagnosis Clutches all models with manual gearbox

a) new clutch liners in 1996 to improve issue.

b) as of January 1997 an optimized release lever is installed which identified by a punched number 2 on the interior side. part number 21 51 1 223 302

----

#4 11 04 97 (242) Date 8/1997 Alignment Dowels missing.

can cause

a) clutch shudder or poor disengagement
b) input shaft noise
c) gears jumping
d) snagging gearshift

dowels are part number 11 11 1 743 118 for e36 m3

Ron thanks for the info.

Doug

[Ron97M3]

I wonder why the revision #2 clutch fork? They say the original revision #1
should always be changed out!

Doug I also remember somebody else had a problem that I think was like yours
were it turned out the one of the pressure plate bolts had broken apparently
right after he installed the new clutch. This caused the pressure plate to not fully disengage the clutch disc.

I guess it's a good idea to replace the heat stressed pressure plate bolts with
news one when you do the clutch! Sure are a LOT of possible problems with the transmission/clutch which can cause bad engagement problems.

I have two reason for wanting to see you find the problem.
#1 is I am sorry you are suffering with it.
#2 is I plan to do mine someday I don't want to suffer like you!

[douglee25]

I too am curious why they changed out the clutch fork.

I installed new pressure plate and flywheel bolts when I did the clutch in June.

Doug

[Ron97M3]

So doug about the diagnosis procedure in the information I gave like ...

1. Run engine at idle speed
2. Depress Clutch
3. Try to engage 1st gear from neutral

If 1st gear is difficult to engage, hold the gear lever at the resistance point (about half total travel) with constant force and then switch the engine ignition off with the other hand.

Two outcomes ....

1. If after the engine is turned off 1st gear engages completely without additional-more pressure, there is a problem in the clutch.
If this is true they say to clean the input shaft of old grease and renew the clutch plate. Grease with new grease. I assume you could just clen the clutch plate splines well to remove any old grease and that would be ok.

2. If after the engine is turned off 1st gear does not engage completely but instead remains at the resistance point, there is a problem in the outer gearshift mechanism or in the transmission.

So what result do you get with this test procedure? 1 or 2

[douglee25]

Update 12/14/07

I installed the new clutch master cylinder, new clutch hose, and new pedal bushings. I had a little bit of a tough time getting all the air out of the system, but since driving on it the pedal feel is back to where it should be.

On a positive note, the gear engages on the 1st try now everytime.... but... for some reason I still get a slight creep of the car if my foot is off the brake. To me it would seem as though the clutch is still not be disengaging 100%, but it must be further than the previous because it does go into gear much easier.

Strange huh? Anyway, I'll keep driving it and see how it performs.

Doug

[mreloc]

Doug- I think that's excellent news about the improvement in clutch engagement. Hopefully after your car is fully cold and you try again it is still improved. Strange you still get the creep- I'm surprised if you're able to get it in first easily and that the clutch isn't fully disengaged.

[Ron97M3]

Update 12/14/07

I installed the new clutch master cylinder, new clutch hose, and new pedal bushings. I had a little bit of a tough time getting all the air out of the system, but since driving on it the pedal feel is back to where it should be.

On a positive note, the gear engages on the 1st try now everytime.... but... for some reason I still get a slight creep of the car if my foot is off the brake. To me it would seem as though the clutch is still not be disengaging 100%, but it must be further than the previous because it does go into gear much easier.
Strange huh? Anyway, I'll keep driving it and see how it performs.
Doug

Of course you know that the creep indicates that the clutch disc must be
rubbing all the time. The creeping must be causing a lot of friction and heat and I don't like that at all. So the clutch must be still disengaging towards the bottom of the floor, is that correct?

[douglee25]

Doug- I think that's excellent news about the improvement in clutch engagement. Hopefully after your car is fully cold and you try again it is still improved. Strange you still get the creep- I'm surprised if you're able to get it in first easily and that the clutch isn't fully disengaged.

Well the car sat overnight and it's back to being tough to get into gear. After the car is warmed up (30 mins) I can get it into gear though on the 1st try. I will see how the car feels come spring time. Depending on the outcome, I may decide to throw a whole new clutch kit in it.

Doug

[douglee25]

Of course you know that the creep indicates that the clutch disc must be
rubbing all the time. The creeping must be causing a lot of friction and heat and I don't like that at all. So the clutch must be still disengaging towards the bottom of the floor, is that correct?

The clutch pedal feels perfectly fine at this point. It's definitely the clutch disk dragging on the input shaft and or the clutch disk is bent.

Doug

[Ron97M3]

IF the clutch works better after the clutch is used/pumped then that indicates
there is still some air in the system. This how I understand these things.

[2vicious]

im having problems with my clutch i sent out a thread if anyone could help me that would be grea

[douglee25]

I wanted to update everyone on this issue....

I purchased the updated spline grease from BMW and finally got to tear the clutch down again. The clutch has approx. 11k miles on it since installation last May 2007. Nevertheless, the splines on the disk and the input shaft were completely dry (none visible). The lithium that I put on the throwout bearing sides and clutch fork was still present but very dry to the appearance.

I took the clutch disk and chucked it up in the lathe this morning. The center hub was true (0.003" run out) but the outside circumference of the hub/disk was not. Run out on the outer circumference was in the neighborhood of 0.040" - 0.045". I have no idea if this value was acceptable or not, but I decided I was going to try and straighten the hub portion. I marked the high spot and took a dead blow to it. After every blow I rechecked that the center hub run out was still 0.003" before I checked the outside run out. I was able to get run out down to 0.010" which I felt was acceptable for the given application. Running the lathe at speed now showed that in fact the disk was much straighter.

I reassembled with the new grease on the input shaft (liberal amount this time), clutch disk, throw out bearing, clutch fork, and quill tube. Clutch pedal pressure is much easier and more positive. The car also appears to finally go into gear on the first try and the 1 - 2" that the car moved when engaging first has also disappeared.

In hindsight, I have no idea if I personally bent the clutch disk or I received it this way. I believe the 0.040" run out plus the incorrect/dry lithium greased contributed to the difficulty with engaging first gear.

As a side note, my brother and I had the job completed on jack stands in exactly 5 hours. Not too shabby if I do say so myself.

Doug