Pros and Cons of a Custom vs kit

[EstorilRoc3060]

First off my apologies if this is a repost, if so I ask you to kindly point me in the right direction for what to search.
That being said, what are the pros and cons of piecing one together yourself versus getting a kit?
I want turbo, basically was wondering if there was any way I could save some money in trying to create something really close to a TT stg 1.
Either way I'm going turbo, I just didn't know whether it was a way to go for cheaper but the same quality.
I know Nick G puts a helluva kit together and he's the man I would go to for a kit, but I just wanted to see what else was possible.

[Bigsalgt]

TT's Kit is so well made and trouble free, it doesn't pay to do a custom kit unless you have a great parts supplier that can give you great deals. Also, if you go custom, Nick G. will not sell mail order software. This alone is a major downfall of going custom because it eliminates him as a software/tuning supplier! Unless you plan on shipping the car to ICS Performance or TT themselves, you will miss out on the BEST OBDII stock DME software. Also, your WHP goal plays a big part on choosing TT's kit or custom build!

[EastBayMPower]

when it comes to kit forms....my take on it is as follows:

pro: nick's kit includes everything to bolt-on and drive, and also is less expensive than piecing together a kit and then paying him to tune it. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure that there isn't a single other person in this country who could sell you a working turbo kit with tuning for your 98 (obd2) M3.

cons: it's fun to find parts yourself and make them work. If you look for used stuff, you could save money. And also, if you wanted to go with bigger/better parts right off the bat, you could put together a kit to suit those needs without having to replace/sell some parts that would come with a pre-fabbed kit.

[EastBayMPower]

Looks like sal corrected me before I posted- I was unaware that Nick wasn't tuning custom turbo applications anymore. (except maybe in person)

[Bigsalgt]

Looks like sal corrected me before I posted- I was unaware that Nick wasn't tuning custom turbo applications anymore. (except maybe in person)
Nick G. will tune custom turbocharger/supercharger kits in person or if the vehicle is brought to ICS Performance! Before I purchased his software through ICS, I had contacted him and he stated he no longer completes mail order software unless he can somehow view the final project! This insures him the software is functioning properly. IMO, Nick is the best at what he does, no one can beat his software for the OEM DME. Search and you will see how many happy customers he obtains! His turbocharger kit is the same, fantastic, I wish I purchased it in the first place!

[EstorilRoc3060]

Thanks guys, that pretty much answers my question, I now begin the savings endeavor for a TT stg 1!

[EstorilRoc3060]

one more thing guys, I was searching yesterday at school and found a thread that had every FI kit imaginable listed, now I can't find it, can you help me?

[rundatrack]

Custom ya never will know the total cost...

Kit ya have a pretty dead on $$$ give or take a 1-2k because of things you overlooked....

[slcook54]

one more thing guys, I was searching yesterday at school and found a thread that had every FI kit imaginable listed, now I can't find it, can you help me?

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=521046

PS. I would just go straight to Stage II. It isn't that much more plus it saves you $ in the long run.

[Bigsalgt]

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=521046

PS. I would just go straight to Stage II. It isn't that much more plus it saves you $ in the long run.
+1, Stage II all the way! Do it and be done with it, you'll be happy you did so!

[zeromagnus]

he could probably piece together a GT35R setup with a Tec3 for 8-9g

[obnoxious2]

+1, Stage II all the way! Do it and be done with it, you'll be happy you did so!

I emailed NickG regarding the installation of stageII. He told me there is some cutting and welding required and wouldn't recommend installation if you're only a person who knows how to do basic car maintenance work. That being said, he said the total hours it would take him to install the kit was 30 hours...i don't know how much he charges per hour but I'm assuming that it would push your total costs to about 9-10k (7700 for the kit + 2000 for installation)

[EstorilRoc3060]

^^ ouch, that's a lot for me

[Bigsalgt]

he could probably piece together a GT35R setup with a Tec3 for 8-9g
Haha, no way! The Tec3R alone, is $3,000! A GT35R is $1,200! The intercooler, piping, wastegate, BPV, headgasket, headstuds, fuel pump, injectors, exhaust adds up quick. Then you have to tune the Tec3R, :eyecrazy! Not cheap to say the least!

[325icintn]

You need to ask yourself, how many customs kits have you done? If the answer is not more than 1, then go with a kit.

[AngelsNeverLose]

bigsalgt - your car looks sick man

[slcook54]

I emailed NickG regarding the installation of stageII. He told me there is some cutting and welding required and wouldn't recommend installation if you're only a person who knows how to do basic car maintenance work. That being said, he said the total hours it would take him to install the kit was 30 hours...i don't know how much he charges per hour but I'm assuming that it would push your total costs to about 9-10k (7700 for the kit + 2000 for installation)

The cutting he is referring to is cutting the bumper support to fit, which is simple, just take a grinder of your choice and go to town. Like this.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/slcook54/bumper2.jpg

I don't know what needs to be welded unless you opt to have the oil drain fitting welded to the pan, which I would recommend. Pull the pan and take it to a machine shop and have them weld on a fitting, like here.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/slcook54/oildrainin2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/slcook54/oildrainin1.jpg

[slcook54]

You also have to consider the kit doesn't come with gauges, pods, boost controller, turbo timer, or exhaust, some items many feel are necessary, others don't. But you might want to factor those in also.

[Bigsalgt]

bigsalgt - your car looks sick man
Thanks bro! Hopefully you can see it in person at a meet or something! Take you for a spin :evil2 :devillook!

[slcook54]

^^ ouch, that's a lot for me

Don't be intimidate, it isn't that hard, I did it myself, it just takes time. Although, if you feel overwhelmed, have someone do it. I would recommend determining what you want to do before you start though, don't install half the kit and then take it to a shop, it just confuses them and will probably amount to the same time in labor.

[bimmeracer3]

I emailed NickG regarding the installation of stageII. He told me there is some cutting and welding required and wouldn't recommend installation if you're only a person who knows how to do basic car maintenance work. That being said, he said the total hours it would take him to install the kit was 30 hours...i don't know how much he charges per hour but I'm assuming that it would push your total costs to about 9-10k (7700 for the kit + 2000 for installation)

Doesnt this defeat the purpose of a bolt-on ki?

[Bigsalgt]

Doesnt this defeat the purpose of a bolt-on ki?
"Bolt on" in the sense of, items were designed/fabricated for that make and model vehicle! Also, welding in an oil return bung as well as modifying a bumper support hardly takes away from the word "bolt on"!

[obnoxious2]

slcook54 thanks for clearing the work needed to do the install!! (the pictures really helped). I was contemplating if I got this kit would I just get NickG to do the install or find a shop around my area that could do it for me. But now I think I may manage if i get a couple of buds over.

[Shuasha]

I installed Nick's kit on my M3 in two 8-10 hour days plus 3ish 4-5 hour days. That included the boost controller, clutch swap and oil pump nut jobs.

A custom kit always takes a few weeks or more since you have to do your own design work.

[EstorilRoc3060]

very interesting points I had not thought about, especially about the gauges. Is there a place you guys suggest. And what's all this talk of the Tec 3? Is it like a mini boost/fuel god in a box or something?

[bimmeracer3]

OK. Thanks for clearing that up.

[slcook54]

very interesting points I had not thought about, especially about the gauges. Is there a place you guys suggest. And what's all this talk of the Tec 3? Is it like a mini boost/fuel god in a box or something?

No, it is a replacement for the stock DME. It is a standalone computer that is responsible for controlling all your engine functions, fuel, spark, etc. Nick tunes with the stock DME (engine computer), so the tec3 isn't necessary.

[slcook54]

Like shuasha mentioned. You will also need a clutch, I forget to include that. Unlike the other 'optional' items, a clutch is definitely mandatory.

Stage II kit: $7700
Clutch: $900-1000 (UUC cerametallic for example, a lot of happy customers on here with that clutch myself included. I would HIGHLY recommend a single mass lightweight flywheel also while you are doing the clutch)
Exhaust: Conservatively $1000
Electronic Boost Controller: $200-300 (you can opt for a manual boost controller also, most like the simplicity of a EBC though)
Turbo timer: Not sure, $150-200, not really necessary
Gauges/pods: $200-300
Differential reinforcement: I did the Mike Radowski diff brace which is only $30.
Installation for everything: Hard to say, probably around $2500-$3000.

So on the low end of this with installation you are looking at about $12,680 and the high end about $13,530.

Adjust accordingly if you plan on doing the installation yourself.

[NickG]

Just to clarify some of the installation hours.......the basic Stage1 turbo kit takes about 20 hours to install. With Stage2, you also have to swap the head gasket and fuel pump, so that adds about another 10 hours, totalling 30 for the complete Stage2.

If the customer doesn't have any experience swapping head gaskets or dealing with the VANOS assembly, then I always recommend they have a professional do that part of the install. Installing the cams/VANOS incorrectly can lead to engine damage and/or poor running, so you want to make sure it's done right the first time.

In my opinion, the oil drain for the turbo does not need to be welded onto the oilpan. Some people opt for welding it on, and that's fine, but it's not necessary. We include an aluminum template, as well as the proper sized tap for tapping the pan, with every kit now. Every install we've done with this method has worked without any oil leaks at all (my own personal car included).

[Dispatch20]

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=521046

PS. I would just go straight to Stage II. It isn't that much more plus it saves you $ in the long run.

Is it really worth the extra effort of removing the head to gain like 50WHP? The install would be a lot easier for Stage 1. I struggle with deciding on Stage 1 or 2.

All of the headaches I read about the MLS headgaskets doesn't help. It seems like the stock headgasket would be better in the long run (in terms of reliability).

[slcook54]

Good question, Dispatch. Yeah, I can't answer that definitively, balancing headgasket wear and optimum performance seems to be a fine balance, but if PROPERLY installed, the Stage II cars seem to performing very well on this front. And yes, is definitely is worth the extra $. $900 for 50rwhp, definitely good bang for your buck.

[NickG]

Is it really worth the extra effort of removing the head to gain like 50WHP? The install would be a lot easier for Stage 1. I struggle with deciding on Stage 1 or 2.

All of the headaches I read about the MLS headgaskets doesn't help. It seems like the stock headgasket would be better in the long run (in terms of reliability).

Personally, I think Stage1 is more than enough for a street car. But I know that boost is addictive, and people just want POWER. Hence why we also offer the Stage2 kit :)

[slcook54]

Just to clarify some of the installation hours.......the basic Stage1 turbo kit takes about 20 hours to install. With Stage2, you also have to swap the head gasket and fuel pump, so that adds about another 10 hours, totalling 30 for the complete Stage2.

If the customer doesn't have any experience swapping head gaskets or dealing with the VANOS assembly, then I always recommend they have a professional do that part of the install. Installing the cams/VANOS incorrectly can lead to engine damage and/or poor running, so you want to make sure it's done right the first time.

In my opinion, the oil drain for the turbo does not need to be welded onto the oilpan. Some people opt for welding it on, and that's fine, but it's not necessary. We include an aluminum template, as well as the proper sized tap for tapping the pan, with every kit now. Every install we've done with this method has worked without any oil leaks at all (my own personal car included).

Nick is absolutely right! The kit installation is fairly straightforward, but if you don't have experience removing the head, it might be prudent to seek professional assistance.

As far as the oil drain, Nick also provides everything necessary to tap the pan without removing it. For peace of mind I opted to have mine welded the second time around for a few reasons.

- Guarantee there are no shavings left in the pan at all.
- Baffle the pan if you desire
- Secure the oil pump nut
- Peace of mind of having no leaks

Brilliant!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/slcook54/oiltemplate.jpg

[EstorilRoc3060]

I have zero mechanical experience minus spark plugs, oil and the like. Nick G. I emailed you a few days ago, under the name Estorilroc.
Do you do the installs yourself if I were to drive down to you?
Man, that round total cost is kind of a kick in the nuts...my friend just got an Evo...and I want to keep up/beat him...i guess it's gonna be a while...unless Nick G. is feeling incredibley generous and in the xmas spirit! ;)

[Dispatch20]

i guess it's gonna be a while...unless Nick G. is feeling incredibley generous and in the xmas spirit! ;)

I would strongly recommend that Technique Tuning considers a holiday sale similar to the VF engineering Thanksgiving sale. :stickoutt

There is never a shortage of cheap E36 M3 owners, myself included!

[obnoxious2]

Does anyone know if a m50 manifold works better with TT stageII??

[M52 POWER!]

Of course it would.

[NickG]

I have zero mechanical experience minus spark plugs, oil and the like. Nick G. I emailed you a few days ago, under the name Estorilroc.
Do you do the installs yourself if I were to drive down to you?

You might want to check out MP Fabrication in Birmingham, AL (www.mpfab.com). They'll be closer to you and are very capable of installing our kit.

[obnoxious2]

You might want to check out MP Fabrication in Birmingham, AL (www.mpfab.com (http://www.mpfab.com)). They'll be closer to you and are very capable of installing our kit.

Any recommendations in the Maryland/Northern Virginia area?

[Excidium28]

WOW ill keep it short from my experience

Kit = Simple

Custom = :eek: :eyecrazy :unclesam :mad :kb :chainsaw :bazooka :bluecryin :comp: :firedevil :rock: :complain :ar15firin :pissed :angryfire :conf :conf :freak :crazynoel :dunno :deadhorse: :mechstuck :cashwalle :cashwalle and than :ausw_6 :woot: :redspot and than some more :mechstuck :cashwalle

[Excidium28]

How longs the weit list on TT stage 2 kit now?

[EstorilRoc3060]

^^HAHA nice pictograph of a custom build, that seriously keeps me away from such a endeavor

[Juicy Double]

if you hav to aks about the pros and cons of a kit vs custom, go with a kit.

[obnoxious2]

Does anyone know when the stage II spools up at??

i read on m3forums that the stageI spools up at 3200....so with stageII...a lowered compression I should expect turbo to spool later or about the same??

[Shuasha]

Let's look at it this way..

First gear goes by so fast you don't even get so see it. After that, you're high enough in the rpm band to instantly spool the turbo. :)

[mike radowski]

Any recommendations in the Maryland/Northern Virginia area?

We're a bit further north in central NJ.

[NickG]

Any recommendations in the Maryland/Northern Virginia area?

Check out Road Race Technologies. I think their username here is JamesM3M5.

[NickG]

How longs the weit list on TT stage 2 kit now?

About 2 weeks (we're doing our best to always have kits in stock now :redspot )

Oh, and we also have a Stage2 2.8L kit available for all the 328 owners :)

[NickG]

Does anyone know when the stage II spools up at??

i read on m3forums that the stageI spools up at 3200....so with stageII...a lowered compression I should expect turbo to spool later or about the same??

That's fairly correct.

But just for clarification, on the Stage1, positive manifold pressure is seen as low as 2500rpm. It's at about 3200rpm when the full 8.5psi is achieved. And stage2 does spool *slightly* slower, but not so much as to be noticeable.

[badluckM3]

NickG, I've seen multiple users around here with a TT kit with upgrade to a GT35. Can you offer any more details about that kit (or if it exists and not someones custom modification of you kit), and roughly what costs are added for this?

Thanks

[Shuasha]

NickG, I've seen multiple users around here with a TT kit with upgrade to a GT35. Can you offer any more details about that kit (or if it exists and not someones custom modification of you kit), and roughly what costs are added for this?

Thanks
I did a thread on what I had to do to upgrade my TT Stage 2 kit to a GT35R.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=593899&highlight=technique+tuning+gt35r

[Excidium28]

About 2 weeks (we're doing our best to always have kits in stock now :redspot )

Oh, and we also have a Stage2 2.8L kit available for all the 328 owners :)

:eek: thats awesome! .. I remember when the wait list use to be a year long!

[EstorilRoc3060]

As much as I would love to save for a Turbo, with the overall cost being close to 13k+ there's no way I can afford that any time soon. I'd be better off waiting till after I graduate, have a stable job and then do it, that way I have a slightly less shallow pocket book to deal with. In the mean time I think I'll go cams, those should hold me ver for a while, that way I'll be satisfied and I can also better prepare my car for a turbo.
So little by little build up, or turbo then build up is basically how I would have to do it...so I'll go little by little.

Thanks for all the help guys I really appreciate it and Thanks to Nick G. to answering my questions here and through email.

[Dispatch20]

As much as I would love to save for a Turbo, with the overall cost being close to 13k+ there's no way I can afford that any time soon. I'd be better off waiting till after I graduate, have a stable job and then do it, that way I have a slightly less shallow pocket book to deal with. In the mean time I think I'll go cams, those should hold me ver for a while, that way I'll be satisfied and I can also better prepare my car for a turbo.
So little by little build up, or turbo then build up is basically how I would have to do it...so I'll go little by little.

Thanks for all the help guys I really appreciate it and Thanks to Nick G. to answering my questions here and through email.

Aftermarket cams may not be a good choice if you plan to go turbo. You'll want to research that some more.

[EstorilRoc3060]

Yea I know, I'll have to take the Sunbelts out when I turbo, or at least go with Schricks. I've done a lot of research on both since this thread started. Right now I think cams are better way for me to go, the turbo won't happen for 2 years or so now.

[mrt0mjones]

Just do a custom single setup.

if you do it smart it wont run you over 3400 dollars, with good parts.

[slcook54]

Aftermarket cams may not be a good choice if you plan to go turbo. You'll want to research that some more.

I actually disagree with that, my next modification is going to be some sunbelt cams, 7500 redline and new valve springs and retainers. Cams can definitely benefit a car in the upper RPM ranges. I'll be doing before and after dynos, although this is not going to be in the immediate future.

[M3Style95]

all this talk about the TT kit gets me excited. I cant wait till UPS comes tomorrow and drops my stage 2 kit off!!

[obnoxious2]

all this talk about the TT kit gets me excited. I cant wait till UPS comes tomorrow and drops my stage 2 kit off!!

Are you installing the kit yourself or by a shop?? If you're installing the kit yourself please post pics of the install!! And any problems you run into please. I'm contemplating on whether or not I should do it myself when I get the kit or spend another 1-2k to get it done right.

[M3Style95]

Are you installing the kit yourself or by a shop?? If you're installing the kit yourself please post pics of the install!! And any problems you run into please. I'm contemplating on whether or not I should do it myself when I get the kit or spend another 1-2k to get it done right.

It will be professionally installed by a member on this board (nickdrivesm3) and it will be done at a shop.

don't worry I will have pics of the entire install step by step with details.

[slcook54]

Are you installing the kit yourself or by a shop?? If you're installing the kit yourself please post pics of the install!! And any problems you run into please. I'm contemplating on whether or not I should do it myself when I get the kit or spend another 1-2k to get it done right.

Follow the progress here.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=884956