Cooling Down Turbo's??

[MrOffshore]

I remember on my Saab 9000Turbo you had to let the car idle for a bit after running it to let the turbo cool off...just shutting it down with all the heat built up would shorten the life of the turbo.

Is this the case with the twin turbo 335xi? I find it hard to remember to do this and thus it cost me the premature replacement on my Saab...don't want that again on this car.

Any advice is great.

[mryakan]

Nope, the car does it for you.

[CTT]

Nope, the car does it for you.
really? keeps the oil moving for how long?

[Kernel Kurtz]

Post-oilers were common aftermarket add-ons at one time, but I'd think most modern turbocharged cars would have them as standard by now.

[ssigur]

really? keeps the oil moving for how long?
As long as you keep it running at idle or you could use the fan/water hose cooling method. it works extremely fast.

[Danny 335i]

Our turbos are cooled by oil and coolant.When the car is off there is still oil and coolant keeping those babys from frying.

[MNR0]

Yeah, burning inside the bearings.

The only way for the turbos to cool is for oil pressure to push oil through them. I do not know if we have a means of supplying that oil pressure post turn-off, so I always let my car idle for a minute or 2 just till I see the oil temp gauge start swinging cooler before turning her off.

Turbo timers are illegal in Australia.

[MrOffshore]

Yeah, burning inside the bearings.

The only way for the turbos to cool is for oil pressure to push oil through them. I do not know if we have a means of supplying that oil pressure post turn-off, so I always let my car idle for a minute or 2 just till I see the oil temp gauge start swinging cooler before turning her off.

Turbo timers are illegal in Australia.

I would think letting it idle would be helpful, but do you think it's important under normal driving conditions...or only after it's been run hard?

[Jhunter]

The manual says turn the car off when you are done driving. If you are idling you are just wasting gas and your time.

[Bandit335]

I am no engineer but have owned turbo cars before. My recently sold 04 Volvo S60R also made 300hp stock. The Volvo owner's manual and service adviser stated that in order to allow for longest turbo life I let the turbo cool off before shutting down the engine after hard driving. As stated above the way the turbos are cooled by oil or fan (or both, not sure) and once the motor is shut off that stops and they overheat. Normal driving didn't require this procedure and the fan blew after shut off for some time. In the Volvo in hot weather you could hear the fan for as long as five minutes after shut off even in normal driving. From what I know Volvo has used turbo engines longer than BMW.

IMHO I would let the car sit at idle for approx. 30 seconds after running it hard. I did this in the previous cars and never had a turbo go bad. Sometimes it's wise to rely on common sense and not on soome oil cooler to save your turbos. This can be further evidenced by how the current engine can go into Limp Mode after prolonged hard driving even with cars that have the additional cooler. It may be a different thing but goes to show that relying only on technology can lead to unwanted consequences. As with everything else mechanical, the better you maintain something the higher the chances that it will run longer. Then there are those who think technology is fail proof and others who just don't give a damn and will drop the car once the lease is over.

[patrick S]

electric water pump does it automatically?

[Jhunter]

...and others who just don't give a damn and will drop the car once the lease is over.

Thats me!:buttrock

And then there are those who make up procedures to follow based on what the manual for their uncle's '87 Volvo said and old-wives tales.

What's 30 seconds doing for you? An idling car will run at full operating temperature. There is no air going through the oil cooler. You are probably dropping the temperature like 5 degrees. BMW says turn the car off, that's enough for me.

[Beer Goggles]

Thats me!:buttrock

And then there are those who make up procedures to follow based on what the manual for their uncle's '87 Volvo said and old-wives tales.

What's 30 seconds doing for you? An idling car will run at full operating temperature. There is no air going through the oil cooler. You are probably dropping the temperature like 5 degrees. BMW says turn the car off, that's enough for me.


The difference is the turbo isn't glowing red at idle.

Also depending on the design, if the turbo was oil-cooled this makes a huge difference as sludge clogs veins in the turbo. BMW uses water cooled and has a recirc system to keep things going.

[Jhunter]

The difference is the turbo isn't glowing red at idle.

Also depending on the design, if the turbo was oil-cooled this makes a huge difference as sludge clogs veins in the turbo. BMW uses water cooled and has a recirc system to keep things going.

The point that nobody seems to get is that BMW says turn off the car. Cooling the turbos is not necessary.

[mryakan]

I am no engineer but have owned turbo cars before. My recently sold 04 Volvo S60R also made 300hp stock. The Volvo owner's manual and service adviser stated that in order to allow for longest turbo life I let the turbo cool off before shutting down the engine after hard driving. As stated above the way the turbos are cooled by oil or fan (or both, not sure) and once the motor is shut off that stops and they overheat. Normal driving didn't require this procedure and the fan blew after shut off for some time. In the Volvo in hot weather you could hear the fan for as long as five minutes after shut off even in normal driving. From what I know Volvo has used turbo engines longer than BMW.

IMHO I would let the car sit at idle for approx. 30 seconds after running it hard. I did this in the previous cars and never had a turbo go bad. Sometimes it's wise to rely on common sense and not on soome oil cooler to save your turbos. This can be further evidenced by how the current engine can go into Limp Mode after prolonged hard driving even with cars that have the additional cooler.

Ever wonder what the electric pump is doing after you turn off the car? Not all turbo cars are created equal and BMW took this into consideration.


IMHO I would let the car sit at idle for approx. 30 seconds after running it hard. I did this in the previous cars and never had a turbo go bad.
doesn't mean if you don't do it on the 335 that something will go bad. Needless idling is bad for the environment and a waste of energy and money.


Sometimes it's wise to rely on common sense and not on soome oil cooler to save your turbos. This can be further evidenced by how the current engine can go into Limp Mode after prolonged hard driving even with cars that have the additional cooler.
What does the oil cooler have to do with any of this. The Oil cooler provides additional oil cooling when the engine is running, but the main turbo cooling is coolant based which is done even after your car is turned off.


It may be a different thing but goes to show that relying only on technology can lead to unwanted consequences. As with everything else mechanical, the better you maintain something the higher the chances that it will run longer. Then there are those who think technology is fail proof and others who just don't give a damn and will drop the car once the lease is over.
It is not about trusting technology, but about understanding it. The main reason people resist change and new technologies is because they don't understand them. Try convincing your grandpa to use an iPod or even cds instead of his LP collection.

[Beer Goggles]

The point that nobody seems to get is that BMW says turn off the car. Cooling the turbos is not necessary.

You took my comments wrong...there are reasons to to let it cool down. Normal driving is not one of them. Running hard at the track is...and with any car.

But I was agreeing that you don't need to worry. But the "old school" thought was legit.

[Bandit335]

And then there are those who make up procedures to follow based on what the manual for their uncle's '87 Volvo said and old-wives tales.

Just to be clear the Volvo was a 2004 model and it made 300hp from a 2.5 liter engine with one turbo. Don't want to get into discussion about the Volvo as the BMW is a far superior car. My only suggestion was not to always rely on what the manufacturer says about the car's coolers or ability. Why would they openly advertise a potential problem that may or may not come up only once the warranty is up. Remember they still don't think the engine overheating is an issue and we all read the posts on that. I will ask a BMW service adviser about this the next time I'm in for service. At least this is a good debate that I'm sure I and others can learn some info from.

[mryakan]

The point that nobody seems to get is that BMW says turn off the car. Cooling the turbos is not necessary.
Funny how some people think they know better than the BMW engineers. We get that a lot too in my industry too and those people are usually the ones who **** things up and then come running back to the engineers to help them out of the mess they created. Some things never change.

[Beer Goggles]

And then there are those who make up procedures to follow based on what the manual for their uncle's '87 Volvo said and old-wives tales.

Just to be clear the Volvo was a 2004 model and it made 300hp from a 2.5 liter engine with one turbo. Don't want to get into discussion about the Volvo as the BMW is a far superior car. My only suggestion was not to always rely on what the manufacturer says about the car's coolers or ability. Why would they openly advertise a potential problem that may or may not come up only once the warranty is up. Remember they still don't think the engine overheating is an issue and we all read the posts on that. I will ask a BMW service adviser about this the next time I'm in for service. At least this is a good debate that I'm sure I and others can learn some info from.

What does that have to do with anything. You must not understand what HP is, there are advantages to single and twin turbo design.

[535desire]

After running the engine hard (say pulling of the interstate into a rest area), I would suggest you let the engine idle for 30 sec, to circulate cooler oil through the turbo(s).

Probably more important is running a synthetic oil on a turbo, so the oil won't coke up.

[Bandit335]

Ever wonder what the electric pump is doing after you turn off the car? Not all turbo cars are created equal and BMW took this into consideration.


doesn't mean if you don't do it on the 335 that something will go bad. Needless idling is bad for the environment and a waste of energy and money.


What does the oil cooler have to do with any of this. The Oil cooler provides additional oil cooling when the engine is running, but the main turbo cooling is coolant based which is done even after your car is turned off.


It is not about trusting technology, but about understanding it. The main reason people resist change and new technologies is because they don't understand them. Try convincing your grandpa to use an iPod or even cds instead of his LP collection.


I agree with most of what you say. The comparison of the oil cooler to the turbo is simply to point out that manufacturers don't always tell you everything that can go wrong or they risk having to replace this later after warranty as is the case with people asking for rtrofit of the additional cooler.

To add to your point of wasting fuel at idle the BMW manual says that the car can be shut off to save fuel if you plan to idle more than FIVE SECONDS! I found this very interesting and funny. I'm sure they didn't suggest turning the car off at every red light to save some gas. But if you're serious about your environment statement then follow BMW's above suggestion.

[Bandit335]

Correction, BMW's manual actually says 4 seconds. They say "switch off engine during lenghty stops," then they include traffic lights, rail crossings or traffic congestion", and state that approx. 4 seconds or longer idling burns more gas than restart.

[MrOffshore]

Well, it does appear this is a half way worthwhile debate...

I think there can be little harm in letting the car idle for 30 seconds or so after running it "hard" to let the heat disepate a little more easily...and in reality 30 seconds of idle isn't amounting to much fuel waste...

I think under normal driving I might not worry about it...but I do agree that at some point common sense should prevail...it's not like I'm hearing of any safeguard as to why I shouldn't let the turbo cool under idle...I mean there isn't a system or anything that is directly identifying that we're all in good shape and don't worry about it...or is there...the debate continues.:D

[Bandit335]

Does anyone actually know who builds these turbos for BMW? From what I know there are only a few companies that build turbos for all other cars. I'm sure BMW decides on how they want to cool it etc...

Again, I don't think idling is necessary after normal driving. Then again, normal driving of a BMW is different from other cars.

[mryakan]

To add to your point of wasting fuel at idle the BMW manual says that the car can be shut off to save fuel if you plan to idle more than FIVE SECONDS! I found this very interesting and funny. I'm sure they didn't suggest turning the car off at every red light to save some gas. But if you're serious about your environment statement then follow BMW's above suggestion.
Interesting you should bring that up. Actually, on newer 5 series and the upcoming 1/3 series, BMW will force you to do so. Just read about it in the BMW magazine. When you come to a stop and put the car in neutral (MT) and take your foot off the clutch, the engine will shut off. When you depress the clutch, the engine will start again. Average traffic light stops are 30 second to 2 minute so I assume BMW believes they can save quite a bit of emissions by doing so. I admit I don't follow BMW recommendation except on very few occasions, but I would welcome such new technology. It doesn't bother me the bit.

[mryakan]

Does anyone actually know who builds these turbos for BMW? From what I know there are only a few companies that build turbos for all other cars. I'm sure BMW decides on how they want to cool it etc...

Again, I don't think idling is necessary after normal driving. Then again, normal driving of a BMW is different from other cars.
I believe it is Mitsubishi.

[Bandit335]

Interesting you should bring that up. Actually, on newer 5 series and the upcoming 1/3 series, BMW will force you to do so. Just read about it in the BMW magazine. When you come to a stop and put the car in neutral (MT) and take your foot off the clutch, the engine will shut off. When you depress the clutch, the engine will start again. Average traffic light stops are 30 second to 2 minute so I assume BMW believes they can save quite a bit of emissions by doing so. I admit I don't follow BMW recommendation except on very few occasions, but I would welcome such new technology. It doesn't bother me the bit.


Wow, if that in fact is true then I don't know how they got it passed their legal department. Just wait till the first guy gets attacked or robbed or hit by another car at a red light. They will sue the crap out of BMW and say that it delayed their escape or compromised their safety. IMO this new technology will never see the light of day on U.S. streets. I wouldn't like it. Sometimes safety and reason come before a supposed benefit to the environment. What good is the clean air when you're dead. I would rather see them improve in other ways or push for differently powered cars altogether like the hydrogen fuel bimmers.

[Jhunter]

Interesting you should bring that up. Actually, on newer 5 series and the upcoming 1/3 series, BMW will force you to do so. Just read about it in the BMW magazine. When you come to a stop and put the car in neutral (MT) and take your foot off the clutch, the engine will shut off. When you depress the clutch, the engine will start again. Average traffic light stops are 30 second to 2 minute so I assume BMW believes they can save quite a bit of emissions by doing so. I admit I don't follow BMW recommendation except on very few occasions, but I would welcome such new technology. It doesn't bother me the bit.

How can this be??? You will cook the turbos!!! They will seize within 10K miles for sure. Wait, maybe BMW employs lots of engineers, tests materials, runs engines at high speed for days on end. Maybe they know what they are talking about?

And 335desire, highway driving is the opposite of running an engine hard. You are at a constant speed at low RPM (overdrive with an AT, presumably 6th gear with a MT) with maximum air hitting the radiator and oil cooler. Acceleration is running an engine hard.

[Jhunter]

Wow, if that in fact is true then I don't know how they got it passed their legal department. Just wait till the first guy gets attacked or robbed or hit by another car at a red light. They will sue the crap out of BMW and say that it delayed their escape or compromised their safety. IMO this new technology will never see the light of day on U.S. streets. I wouldn't like it. Sometimes safety and reason come before a supposed benefit to the environment. What good is the clean air when you're dead. I would rather see them improve in other ways or push for differently powered cars altogether like the hydrogen fuel bimmers.

Try locking your doors. This technology is already in place on golf carts! I think this will be common technology in the coming years. The carbon nazis will make sure of it.

[535desire]

...
And 335desire, highway driving is the opposite of running an engine hard. You are at a constant speed at low RPM (overdrive with an AT, presumably 6th gear with a MT) with maximum air hitting the radiator and oil cooler. Acceleration is running an engine hard.
That does depend on how hard you are running the car, but my point is that there is practically no cool down opportunity in that scenario of pulling off the interstate and shutting down immediately. When you are driving to work, or back home, the whole time you are tooling down a residential street or in a parking lot the turbo has a chance to cool down.

[mryakan]

P.S. This is true, I am not making it up. Check the latest issue of BMW magazine. AND THIS IS NOT FUTURE TECH. This will be on the 08 1 series, 5 series, but not sure on which model of the 3 series.


Wow, if that in fact is true then I don't know how they got it passed their legal department. Just wait till the first guy gets attacked or robbed or hit by another car at a red light. They will sue the crap out of BMW and say that it delayed their escape or compromised their safety. IMO this new technology will never see the light of day on U.S. streets. I wouldn't like it. Sometimes safety and reason come before a supposed benefit to the environment. What good is the clean air when you're dead. I would rather see them improve in other ways or push for differently powered cars altogether like the hydrogen fuel bimmers.

It takes less than 1 second to crank the engine back on and since you have to depress the clutch anyway to move, this will be almost seemless. If you keep your foot on the clutch and the car in gear the engine will not shut off. There are lots of idiots that will sue for their idiocy, but in such case I doubt any judge will waste time listening to them


How can this be??? You will cook the turbos!!! They will seize within 10K miles for sure. Wait, maybe BMW employs lots of engineers, tests materials, runs engines at high speed for days on end. Maybe they know what they are talking about?

And 335desire, highway driving is the opposite of running an engine hard. You are at a constant speed at low RPM (overdrive with an AT, presumably 6th gear with a MT) with maximum air hitting the radiator and oil cooler. Acceleration is running an engine hard.

You keep forgetting that the electric pump is still on cooling the turbos even when the engine is off. There is a reason BMW chose electric not mechanical pumps.

[daddyO]

I too have had turbo cars since my first '87 Volvo 740 turbo wagon. Some turbos at that time had only oil circulation and no water jacket for radiator cooling, but not the Volvo. At that time the SA and salesman said let the car idle for a while after a hard run in order to avoid coking the oil. If that happens, tiny bits of coked oil will scar the turbo bearing, eventually leading to oil leaks and a smokey exhaust. The Volvo was retired with over 150,000 miles and the original turbo and no oil smoke. I know synthetic oil can withstand more heat than a non-synthetic, and that the risk of turbo damage is reduced, but from habit (usually after a long trip) I let the car run while I unload it. From the water and oil circulation through the turbos and less hot exhaust flow, they will cool somewhat. It can't help but lead to longer turbo life, regardless of oil choice or what the manual says. Same as changing the oil after the first 1000 miles - maybe overkill but worthwhile IMHO.

[Bandit335]

Try locking your doors. This technology is already in place on golf carts! I think this will be common technology in the coming years. The carbon nazis will make sure of it.


It seems that you find it difficult for others to have a differing opinion than yours. I don't care if people like you want this thing as that's your choice, but don't act all anal when people disagree. I can think of many other reasons why I wouldn't want this technology in my car and I think I'm not alone. For one, it will look like your car stalls at every single stop. If you want it this then practice driving around and keep shutting off the engine whenever you stop for a while and see if you like it. Try starting up your car and see how long it takes. The start up takes a moment as the needle sets into the appropriate rpm. Also, I don't think people on golf carts are a good comparison.

I hope that those who advocate for more technology in their cars at every possible level , are not the same people who later complain that BMWs don't drive just like they used to.

[mryakan]

It seems that you find it difficult for others to have a differing opinion than yours. I don't care if people like you want this thing as that's your choice, but don't act all anal when people disagree. I can think of many other reasons why I wouldn't want this technology in my car and I think I'm not alone. For one, it will look like your car stalls at every single stop. If you want it this then practice driving around and keep shutting off the engine whenever you stop for a while and see if you like it. Try starting up your car and see how long it takes. The start up takes a moment as the needle sets into the appropriate rpm. Also, I don't think people on golf carts are a good comparison.

I hope that those who advocate for more technology in their cars at every possible level , are not the same people who later complain that BMWs don't drive just like they used to.
Don't think we have much choice when BMW decides to introduce new technology other than to take it or find another car we like, and this technology is no different. Maybe be glad you purchased your car before they introduced this. P.S. I am not necessarily advocating every new tech BMW comes out with, but I do accept it and try it out for an extended period of time before passing judgment. I am sure people complained like this when ABS or traction control were 1st introduced claiming they don't control their cars 100% anymore etc etc, but now no one complains about them.

[535desire]

....the electric pump is still on cooling the turbos even when the engine is off. There is a reason BMW chose electric not mechanical pumps.
Is this for coolant, oil, or both? (sorry if this is an ignorant question- I don't own a BMW yet)

[Beer Goggles]

It seems that you find it difficult for others to have a differing opinion than yours. I don't care if people like you want this thing as that's your choice, but don't act all anal when people disagree. I can think of many other reasons why I wouldn't want this technology in my car and I think I'm not alone. For one, it will look like your car stalls at every single stop. If you want it this then practice driving around and keep shutting off the engine whenever you stop for a while and see if you like it. Try starting up your car and see how long it takes. The start up takes a moment as the needle sets into the appropriate rpm. Also, I don't think people on golf carts are a good comparison.

I hope that those who advocate for more technology in their cars at every possible level , are not the same people who later complain that BMWs don't drive just like they used to.

Drive a Prius, you'll experience it shutting off.

You have a choice...buy something else.

[mryakan]

Is this for coolant, oil, or both? (sorry if this is an ignorant question- I don't own a BMW yet)
I believe it just keeps the coolant running since the electric pump is only for the coolant, but I could be wrong.

[raceyBMW]

The turbos are cooled with both the engine oil as well as the engine coolant. As Mryakan said, the electric water pump continues to run after the car has been shut off to help dissipate the residual heat and keep the lube oil in the bearings from over heating and caking.

[Bandit335]

Drive a Prius, you'll experience it shutting off.

You have a choice...buy something else.


Exactly. Overall I like just about anything BMW comes up with. I too shut off my car when standing at rail road tracks when I know I'll be there for at least a minute. I just like to do it myself and not at all quick stops. I welcome most technological changes and improvements but this is something I that I can do without. That's all.

About them turbos, the service department at a local BMW dealer (the guy asked three other service men and technicians) and told me that it is advisable to let the car idle for a minute or two regardless what BMW is saying. They think it won't hurt to wait to be on the safe side. Basically, use common sense if you want your turbos' life to reach maximum and not rely on the car's cooling when it is shut off. Rememer this applies only immediately after hard driving. He said BMW doesn't say anything because of the small size of the turbos.

[mryakan]

Exactly. Overall I like just about anything BMW comes up with. I too shut off my car when standing at rail road tracks when I know I'll be there for at least a minute. I just like to do it myself and not at all quick stops. I welcome most technological changes and improvements but this is something I that I can do without. That's all.


They will still give you the choice, albeit a not so comfortable one (intentionally maybe?!): Just don't take your foot off the clutch.



About them turbos, the service department at a local BMW dealer (the guy asked three other service men and technicians) and told me that it is advisable to let the car idle for a minute or two regardless what BMW is saying. They think it won't hurt to wait to be on the safe side. Basically, use common sense if you want your turbos' life to reach maximum and not rely on the car's cooling when it is shut off. Rememer this applies only immediately after hard driving. He said BMW doesn't say anything because of the small size of the turbos.

Those guys have as much experience with the new turbos as anyone else around here. I am not belittling their expertise, I am just saying they are probably basing their feedback on previous experience with other turbos. I bet if you ask them a couple years from now, you'll get a totally different answer. Let's wait and see.

[535desire]

The turbos are cooled with both the engine oil as well as the engine coolant. As Mryakan said, the electric water pump continues to run after the car has been shut off to help dissipate the residual heat and keep the lube oil in the bearings from over heating and caking.
so are both oil and coolant circulated by electric pumps? are these in addition to conventional engine driven pumps? thanks for any info.

[raceyBMW]

No, the engine oil that run through the turbos is driven by the engine pumps. Same with the coolant, it's not a dedicated pump just used for the turbos, the coolant is pumped through with the new 400W electric water pump they have for the N54 engine. However, I don't know if the turbo coolant loop is the only thing that runs after engine shut-off, or if the entire coolant loop is running (which is what I am assuming).

[MrOffshore]

For one, it will look like your car stalls at every single stop.

Interesting how this will give younger, novice drivers an excuse for stalling their cars at traffic lights and in stop and go traffic...they can blame it on malfunctioning systems in the car and save face.

As for the Prius, we have a guy at work that has one and it's pretty cool how it shuts down when stopped for any period of time...sometimes, it's not too bad being a little green. :stickoutt

[Jhunter]

It seems that you find it difficult for others to have a differing opinion than yours. I don't care if people like you want this thing as that's your choice, but don't act all anal when people disagree. I can think of many other reasons why I wouldn't want this technology in my car and I think I'm not alone. For one, it will look like your car stalls at every single stop. If you want it this then practice driving around and keep shutting off the engine whenever you stop for a while and see if you like it. Try starting up your car and see how long it takes. The start up takes a moment as the needle sets into the appropriate rpm. Also, I don't think people on golf carts are a good comparison.

I hope that those who advocate for more technology in their cars at every possible level , are not the same people who later complain that BMWs don't drive just like they used to.

I don't mind differing opinions if something is worth debating. Just seems that some are trying to create a problem that does not exist. Just because old turbo engines required a cool down does not mean this one does. There are two small turbos not one big one, the boost is relatively low, they are built using heat resistant materials. BMW would recommend a cool down if necessary, they warranty for four years and all manufacturers engineer for potential long-term problems that could cost them money with mass out of warranty repairs or negative goodwill.

Also, I am not interest in a car the turns itself off either. I could care less about the gas I burn at a light. Probably $20 a year, big deal. I just think this technology will be forced on us.

[Beer Goggles]

I don't mind differing opinions if something is worth debating. Just seems that some are trying to create a problem that does not exist. Just because old turbo engines required a cool down does not mean this one does. There are two small turbos not one big one, the boost is relatively low, they are built using heat resistant materials. BMW would recommend a cool down if necessary, they warranty for four years and all manufacturers engineer for potential long-term problems that could cost them money with mass out of warranty repairs or negative goodwill.

Also, I am not interest in a car the turns itself off either. I could care less about the gas I burn at a light. Probably $20 a year, big deal. I just think this technology will be forced on us.

They aren't forcing you to save gas, they are asking you to burn cleaner. It's government standards of emissions they are trying to reach. As I stated above, I could care less if oil runs out in 100 years, if we continue to stretch the oil reserve to last, we'll do nothing but pay more. Run out and a technology change is forced. Seems better for the economy to have cheap gas than tax the crap out of it and make unrealistic emissions and MPG mandates that drive up prices as well. Make an emission standard and make gas cheap.

I'm not a green house alarmist that thinks our little cars are ruining the world. We could debate "green house" effect all day. I feel our human ego makes us think we're more important than we are. The earth survived much worse than our little virus infestation. An asteroid changed the face of the planet, as did volcanoes. We had an ice age not too long ago, dark ages...things well beyond our existence on the planet in a much bigger time frame. I'm all for having less impact, but governments maintain control with fear. The current fear is "CO2" a few years ago it was the Ozone layer...what happened to that Ozone layer? We stopped caring and they needed a new thing to unite people.

[Kernel Kurtz]

Probably more important is running a synthetic oil on a turbo, so the oil won't coke up.

That is the key point in this entire debate.


It takes less than 1 second to crank the engine back on and since you have to depress the clutch anyway to move, this will be almost seemless.

I wonder how long starters will last? I'd avoid the first generation myself.

I am sure people complained like this when ABS

I still don't like ABS, but I grudgingly accept it.

I could care less about the gas I burn at a light. Probably $20 a year, big deal. I just think this technology will be forced on us.

I agree with this also. I could have bought a Prius. I didn't.

[mryakan]

I still don't like ABS, but I grudgingly accept it.

Am I safe to assume you are a baby boomer? :D

[742]

Am I safe to assume you are a baby boomer?

A reasonably good driver can beat ABS stopping distances. To take it further, ABS will almost always giver a longer stopping distance in snow/slush regardless of driver ability.

ABS is a trade off that sacrifices stopping distance for improved directional control. This appears to be a reasonable trade off, but it is also a tradeoff that a reasonable person may not care to make. And surprisingly the stats show an increase in accident rates for ABS equipped cars.

[mryakan]

A reasonably good driver can beat ABS stopping distances. To take it further, ABS will almost always giver a longer stopping distance in snow/slush regardless of driver ability.

ABS is a trade off that sacrifices stopping distance for improved directional control. This appears to be a reasonable trade off, but it is also a tradeoff that a reasonable person may not care to make. And surprisingly the stats show an increase in accident rates for ABS equipped cars.


ABS is not just about shorter stopping distance but about being able to maneuver while braking at the limit or on slippery surfaces without skidding and while maintaining steering control. No driver in the world can emulate ABS in that respect. It is a safety thing and not meant to improve your drivign skills and you are correct in assuming a good driver would rarely need it, but even great drivers have bad days and I am sure they would b happy to to have ABS save their day and lives possibly.
Btw, those stats wouldn't be done by manufacturers that don't have standard abs would they? :shifty I have a sales guy feed me that BS trying to sell me an Eclipse (brand new in 97) that didn't even offer ABS as an option!

[742]

ABS is not just about shorter stopping distance but about being able to maneuver while braking at the limit or on slippery surfaces without skidding and while maintaining steering control. No driver in the world can emulate ABS in that respect. It is a safety thing and not meant to improve your drivign skills and you are correct in assuming a good driver would rarely need it, but even great drivers have bad days and I am sure they would b happy to to have ABS save their day and lives possibly.
Btw, those stats wouldn't be done by manufacturers that don't have standard abs would they? I have a sales guy feed me that BS trying to sell me an Eclipse (brand new in 97) that didn't even offer ABS as an option!

I am not saying that ABS is bad, simply that a reasonable person can look at it and decide that they are better off without it. And the statistics are at best mixed, perhaps influenced (as you suggest) by what ax is being ground, so who is to say that they are wrong? For myself I simply wish that I could turn it off in the snow.

That said ABS and its components are necessary for electronic stabilization systems, and they certainly appear to be very good things.

But this is off topic, so back to cooking oil in turbos.....

[Kernel Kurtz]

Am I safe to assume you are a baby boomer?

I was born in '64. Whether that qualifies or not is a subject of debate.

ABS is a trade off that sacrifices stopping distance for improved directional control.

Accurate and succinct. A good driver can modulate the brakes to optimize for either requirement.

But as you say the ability to independently brake wheels is also an important component of DTC/DSC in modern cars. I'm leaning towards not preferring that either, though.

[Jhunter]

They aren't forcing you to save gas, they are asking you to burn cleaner. It's government standards of emissions they are trying to reach. As I stated above, I could care less if oil runs out in 100 years, if we continue to stretch the oil reserve to last, we'll do nothing but pay more. Run out and a technology change is forced. Seems better for the economy to have cheap gas than tax the crap out of it and make unrealistic emissions and MPG mandates that drive up prices as well. Make an emission standard and make gas cheap.

I'm not a green house alarmist that thinks our little cars are ruining the world. We could debate "green house" effect all day. I feel our human ego makes us think we're more important than we are. The earth survived much worse than our little virus infestation. An asteroid changed the face of the planet, as did volcanoes. We had an ice age not too long ago, dark ages...things well beyond our existence on the planet in a much bigger time frame. I'm all for having less impact, but governments maintain control with fear. The current fear is "CO2" a few years ago it was the Ozone layer...what happened to that Ozone layer? We stopped caring and they needed a new thing to unite people.

I think you are splitting hairs. Less gas burned equals less emissions. There really isn't an oil shortage, technology advances actually continually increase the recoverable reserves. If the current prices continue then it becomes economically feasible to recover more oil, and more North American oil. Oil companies won't make the investment necessary on blips in price that last months but will if the current high prices sustain.

The last I heard the ozone hole was shrinking so that is why we don't hear about it anymore. Weren't we going into an ice age in the '70s what happened to that?

[MrOffshore]

A reasonably good driver can beat ABS stopping distances. To take it further, ABS will almost always giver a longer stopping distance in snow/slush regardless of driver ability.

ABS is a trade off that sacrifices stopping distance for improved directional control. This appears to be a reasonable trade off, but it is also a tradeoff that a reasonable person may not care to make. And surprisingly the stats show an increase in accident rates for ABS equipped cars.



I think one thing that you are failing to consider is that people adapt to their cars...you might say that ABS requires longer stopping distances, bu that being the case, people become familiar with that on their car and drive within those limits. Think about it this way, my 335 will stop far quicker than my Suburban...that doesn't mean I'm more prone to crash my Suburban, it just means I drive it differently...I leave enough distance to maintain control of the vehicle for the varying conditions I will encounter.

ABS is very much the same, you adapt to the stopping distances. I am, IMHO, an excellent driver and over the years have pushed the limits of every car I have owned...even the Suburban, but I can park my ego long enough to realize that ABS is an excellent safety feature that in just about every circumstance will enable me to better control the car in various driving conditions...no matter how good I think I am...let's remember, the streets I drive on are not a racetrack where cars are typically going in the same direction with other qualified people onboard...and for that matter I don't know of many people who give daily driving the same attention and concentration that they do when they're on the track...so in my opinion, ABS braking systems are an important safety feature that have not only helped experienced drivers in certain situations, but have saved a lot of lives and prevented a lot of accidents for the novice drivers out there. Remember, stopping a car quickly doesn't matter much if you can't steer and control it.

[742]

I think one thing that you are failing to consider is that people adapt to their cars...you might say that ABS requires longer stopping distances, bu that being the case, people become familiar with that on their car and drive within those limits. Think about it this way, my 335 will stop far quicker than my Suburban...that doesn't mean I'm more prone to crash my Suburban, it just means I drive it differently...I leave enough distance to maintain control of the vehicle for the varying conditions I will encounter.

ABS is very much the same, you adapt to the stopping distances. I am, IMHO, an excellent driver and over the years have pushed the limits of every car I have owned...even the Suburban, but I can park my ego long enough to realize that ABS is an excellent safety feature that in just about every circumstance will enable me to better control the car in various driving conditions...no matter how good I think I am...let's remember, the streets I drive on are not a racetrack where cars are typically going in the same direction with other qualified people onboard...and for that matter I don't know of many people who give daily driving the same attention and concentration that they do when they're on the track...so in my opinion, ABS braking systems are an important safety feature that have not only helped experienced drivers in certain situations, but have saved a lot of lives and prevented a lot of accidents for the novice drivers out there. Remember, stopping a car quickly doesn't matter much if you can't steer and control it.

With all due respect, and I am not trying to start a flame war, you missed my point. I did not slam ABS, I simply pointed out that it involves tradeoffs and that a reasonable person might not like those tradeoffs. And the only comment I made about myslef is that I would like to be able to turn it off in snow.

[mryakan]

Weren't we going into an ice age in the '70s what happened to that?
It was put on ice (pun intended). ;)

[mryakan]

With all due respect, and I am not trying to start a flame war, you missed my point. I did not slam ABS, I simply pointed out that it involves tradeoffs and that a reasonable person might not like those tradeoffs. And the only comment I made about myslef is that I would like to be able to turn it off in snow.

Why would you want to do that. I've found it very helpful to keep directional control in the snow in cases of emergency like when an idiot in an AWD Subaru once took a corner too fast and almost slammed into me if I didn't brake 1st and take evasive maneuver climbing the curb and barely avoiding him and a tree. I know some claim longer stopping distances in the snow, but the advantage gained in an emergency situation such as the one I faced highly outweighs that, plus I drive more cautiously in the snow leaving extra room to maneuver and stop. Most of the time you can maneuver away from a crash if you are a few feet short of stopping when you have directional control, but if you skid, you may hit something you could have avoided.
Just my 2 cents.

P.S. This is a good discussion, no ones assumes you are flaming. We don't always have to agree on this forum and that is the nice thing about it, seeing different opinions. Everyone can take what they like and leave what they don't :).

[Bandit335]

Just to throw in a wrench, I recently heard one of the top meteorologists in U.S. totally go against the popular believe that humans and green house emissions such as co2 are mostly responsible for global warming. The data actually shows that it is CO2 that follows a rise in temperatures rather than temperature following a rise in CO2. There was absolutely no rise in temperature and even a drop during the huge industrial revolution with record CO2 emissions. The expert calls global warming the biggest scam of this century. He says in about 20 years everything will be very obvious to the ordinary people. Further, almost no meteorologist or scientist is willing to say this out loud for fear of losing precious grants and funding. Maybe that's why Al Gore doesn't want to have a fair debate about this topic.

[mryakan]

Just to throw in a wrench, I recently heard one of the top meteorologists in U.S. totally go against the popular believe that humans and green house emissions such as co2 are mostly responsible for global warming. The data actually shows that it is CO2 that follows a rise in temperatures rather than temperature following a rise in CO2. There was absolutely no rise in temperature and even a drop during the huge industrial revolution with record CO2 emissions. The expert calls global warming the biggest scam of this century. He says in about 20 years everything will be very obvious to the ordinary people. Further, almost no meteorologist or scientist is willing to say this out loud for fear of losing precious grants and funding. Maybe that's why Al Gore doesn't want to have a fair debate about this topic.
This still doesn't mean car emissions are harmless and that we shouldn't try to cut down on them. I am not a strong believer in Global Warming either, but it only takes one trip to LA to see for yourself what cars can do (I know many places like LA or worse exist, and I've seen worse, but LA is probably the best example for the North American crowd). If not to save earth, then to make the air we breathe a bit better.

[White94RX]

back to the original point:

modern day turbos are oil and water cooled, and many believe cool-down periods are not necessary under normal conditions, only extreme spririted driving or racing.

if it makes you sleep better at night, let it idle for 20-30 seconds. if you don't feel like sitting there, then don't.

best thing to do is the last mile or two before you get home, just drive easy and don't push it, so it will cool off on it's own before you get home.

I've got a turbo timer on my RX-7, but I only keep it set for 20 seconds.

[raceyBMW]

Not having a huge knowledge of turboed cars other than what I know of my 335i and being a curious engineer; do you or anyone happen to know if the turbo coolant loop is its own "circuit" that can run separate of the other water pump driven coolant lines after the car is shut off? Or does the entire coolant system run during this process?

[Beer Goggles]

ABS does NOT increase stopping distances...who thinks that? RACE CARS have ABS.

[mryakan]

ABS does NOT increase stopping distances...who thinks that? RACE CARS have ABS.
There were many tests done on snow and they consistently showed stopping distances being longer with ABS than without. I remember an R&T article about that and I think they retested after a couple of years and still came out with the same results. They couldn't find a definitive explanation, but there were many theories (e.g. digging into the snow while skidding helps decrease speed). I can try and dig that article up if I can find it. P.S. you are right, as I recall, ABS distances were shorter in every other condition, even wet surface (except maybe gravel). And also they said even though distances were longer on snow, they still recommended ABS mainly for the directional control and being able to swerve around an obstacle.

[mryakan]

best thing to do is the last mile or two before you get home, just drive easy and don't push it, so it will cool off on it's own before you get home.

A very reasonable advice with no side effects (unless you fly into your street and drift the car into your garage!!! :shifty).

[Bandit335]

back to the original point:

modern day turbos are oil and water cooled, and many believe cool-down periods are not necessary under normal conditions, only extreme spririted driving or racing.

if it makes you sleep better at night, let it idle for 20-30 seconds. if you don't feel like sitting there, then don't.

best thing to do is the last mile or two before you get home, just drive easy and don't push it, so it will cool off on it's own before you get home.

I've got a turbo timer on my RX-7, but I only keep it set for 20 seconds.


Agree, although I don't think anyone ever said to idle after normal driving.

One other point- Does anyone truely believe that the car manufacturers do everything that will make the cars run forever? Although cars have improved over time, they are built to run for x amount of time and distance. After that the car manufacturers wnat you to buy a new one or else they wouldn't survive. My father is an engineer for the biggest printing equipment company in the world. They are often told not to make things work too long in order to make money on repairs and new sales. I think this is true in most places. So, I go back to my main point to observe common sense in the face of technological wonders.

[Beer Goggles]

There were many tests done on snow and they consistently showed stopping distances being longer with ABS than without. I remember an R&T article about that and I think they retested after a couple of years and still came out with the same results. They couldn't find a definitive explanation, but there were many theories (e.g. digging into the snow while skidding helps decrease speed). I can try and dig that article up if I can find it. P.S. you are right, as I recall, ABS distances were shorter in every other condition, even wet surface (except maybe gravel). And also they said even though distances were longer on snow, they still recommended ABS mainly for the directional control and being able to swerve around an obstacle.

Which is why many SUVs have hill decent and "dig in mode" so you don't have that problem is sand.

But I think people are using data from 20 years ago. New systems are far better at stopping a car. And while some skilled test driver might be able to wiggle a few more feet out of non-ABS, the fact that 99% of race cars rely on ABS tells you something.

[Jhunter]

ABS does NOT increase stopping distances...who thinks that? RACE CARS have ABS.

Yeah I am not sure where this is coming from either. Someone above mentioned increaed stopping distance in snow. No way a human pumping the brakes can outperform ABS on snow or ice. You can't pump as fast and you can't pump as close to lockup each times as the ABS can.

[mryakan]

Yeah I am not sure where this is coming from either. Someone above mentioned increaed stopping distance in snow. No way a human pumping the brakes can outperform ABS on snow or ice. You can't pump as fast and you can't pump as close to lockup each times as the ABS can.
I am not making this up nor did I test it. Lots of professional testers came out with the same results. As I said the theory is not 100% verified, but the suspicion is that without ABS, the skidding car will dig a bit into the snow increasing resistance and shortening stopping distances. Same for gravel I believe. So in this case the driver would not pump the brakes without ABS (if I recall in both test methods they just mash the brake pedal). I will try to dig up that magazine and scan it. It is a bit too old to be online, and no, ABS technology hasn't dramatically changed to make the results differ nowadays. Here are more recent links to stress this point:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/tp/tp13082/abs2_e.htm
"Is the stopping distance shorter with ABS?
...
You should allow for a longer stopping distance with ABS than for conventional brakes when driving on gravel, slush, and snow. This is because the rotating tire will stay on top of this low traction road surface covering, and effectively "float" on this boundary layer.

A non ABS braked vehicle can lock its tires and create a snow plow effect in front of the tires which helps slow the vehicle. These locked tires can often find more traction below this boundary layer."

http://www.abs-education.org/faqs/faqindex.htm

"In what circumstances might conventional brakes have an advantage over ABS? There are some conditions where stopping distance may be shorter without ABS. For example, in cases where the road is covered with loose gravel or freshly fallen snow, the locked wheels of a non-ABS car build up a wedge of gravel or snow, which can contribute to a shortening of the braking distance."


http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/lh/abs.htm
"Nevertheless, it's recommended that drivers allow for a longer stopping distance with ABS than for conventional brakes when driving on gravel, sand, ice, snow and mud. This is because the rotating tire will stay on top of these low-traction road surfaces and effectively "float" on the boundary layer. (Conversely, a non-ABS-braked vehicle can lock its tires and create a snowplow effect in front of the tires that helps slow the vehicle. These locked tires can often find more traction below this "boundary layer.")"

[Jhunter]

I might buy that arguement on snow or gravel. But not on ice at low temperatures.

[mryakan]

I might buy that arguement on snow or gravel. But not on ice at low temperatures.
I haven't read anything definitive about ice and it is hard to judge how snow tires and ABS interact on the ice. I mean on ice you have almost no traction so do snow tires grip better if they skid on ice v.s. ABS intervening. Anyone lives near a frozen lake and has a non ABS car to try next to his bimmer, could be fun :stickoutt.

[Jhunter]

I just remember an incident years ago in the infancy of ABS where ABS stopped (just in time!) the car (a big old Caddy) on ice going downhill. My opinion was that no human could have done what it did.

[Beer Goggles]

ABS locks up and will break surface.

[raceyBMW]

So much for this thread having anything to do about Cooling Down Turbos...

[mryakan]

So much for this thread having anything to do about Cooling Down Turbos...
hahaha, skidding on ice or snow will throw slush up the engine bay thus cooling the turbos. There's always a degree of separation :stickoutt.

[Beer Goggles]

The answer should be...you can do NO damage by letting your car cool off before shutting it down, there is a possibility of doing long term harm by just shutting it off.

The debate of cool down is more in question, and what is defined as hard runs. I think anytime you're running up to redline repeatedly, taking a minute or two where the turbos aren't being pushed will suffice as cool down. The time it takes me to drive down my street at 15mph is probably enough. Letting it sit another 45-60 seconds in the driveway can't hurt either.

[CTT]

Jeez this thread took off.

So if there is no circulation of oil after shut off, I'm sure as hell cooling down after spirited driving. I've seen my A4's turbo (KO4) glowing bright red and I don't want oil sitting in that. BUT that was only after beating the piss out of it.

Global warming - eh I'm iffy. Anyone read "fear" by Michael Crichton -- good book with lots of real evidence (I know he's a fiction writer, thanks)? Kind of slams the over the top greenies.

ABS - never driven a car without it.

[MrOffshore]

With all due respect, and I am not trying to start a flame war, you missed my point. I did not slam ABS, I simply pointed out that it involves tradeoffs and that a reasonable person might not like those tradeoffs. And the only comment I made about myslef is that I would like to be able to turn it off in snow.


No disrespect taken, and I certainly hope none was taken by you at my comments, as stated above, an intelligent debate is what makes these forums so enjoyable.

I agree that in "certain" circumstances that non-ABS braking systems will stop a car more quickly. There are so many other variables that play into effect...including tire performance capabilities, tire pressure, tire condition, brakes, brake conditions, how hot they are when making emergency stops (fade) and the list goes on...so while "some" drivers may be able to stop a car more quickly or effectively with no ABS, I think we can all agree that the overwhelming majority of the drivers out there will benefit from ABS brakes.

In addition, I think it still goes back to knowing your car...certainly I understand that a big heavy Cadillac is not going to stop short when I needed, but a Corvette probably will stop on a dime...so ABS brakes will stop at different distances too...what you give up in what will amount to only a feet of additional "potential" stopping distance is more than made up with control. If braking distance is that important, I think it would be more important to find the automobile with the shortest stopping distances...regardless of whether or not they have ABS or not. Even though the BMW stops quite well, there are lighter cars that stop shorter...so this would mute a point where you would be unwilling to accept ABS brakes in an effort to get a shorter stopping distance, unless of course you owned a car with THE shortest stopping distance...now this is getting deep!!

[galahad05]

There were many tests done on snow and they consistently showed stopping distances being longer with ABS than without. I remember an R&T article about that and I think they retested after a couple of years and still came out with the same results. They couldn't find a definitive explanation, but there were many theories (e.g. digging into the snow while skidding helps decrease speed). I can try and dig that article up if I can find it. P.S. you are right, as I recall, ABS distances were shorter in every other condition, even wet surface (except maybe gravel). And also they said even though distances were longer on snow, they still recommended ABS mainly for the directional control and being able to swerve around an obstacle.

I recall one time back in the '90's when I was driving my 95 Mustang GT (the last of the 5 liters) in a freak snow- and ice-storm in Dallas. The car's ABS was doing much much more anti-locking than braking...

[White94RX]

So much for this thread having anything to do about Cooling Down Turbos...

+1

too far gone by now. they're arguing about ABS

[Beer Goggles]

+1

too far gone by now. they're arguing about ABS


Welcome to the internet.

[mryakan]

+1

too far gone by now. they're arguing about ABS
Welcome to the internet.

somebody is talking about beer? I heard that new beer magazine is ok.

Let's see where this takes the thread :devillook

[Beer Goggles]

somebody is talking about beer? I heard that new beer magazine is ok.

Let's see where this takes the thread :devillook

What? Beer is okay? It sucks :)

[fire4adrymouth]

Your turbos are cooled by oil, but oil will obviously only circulate with the engine running. If it is anything like my turbo diesel, you have to allow the Exhaust Gas Temperature enough time to cool down to around 300 degrees or less so the oil doesnt "coke" in the turbos. I installed an aftermarket programmer with a turbo timer and heads up display for peace of mind (and more HP/TQ!). Unless your car is scorching hot, just 30 sec-One minute idle time should be sufficient enough to circulate the oil thoroughly. Even with NA cars I always let them run for a minute before shutting down.

[E92Vancouver]

The E92 has an electric water pump. This cools the turbo after the engine is turned off. The electric waterpump also supplies hotwater to your heater if you use the "Rest" function when you turn the car off. I use the rest function all the time in the winter. I will go shopping and leave the heater on so the car is toasty warm when I get back. I love it!!

Any way, sorry for the digression. The Bimmer turbo is water cooled and oil cooled. When you turn off the engine, if the turbo is still hot, the electric water pump continues to circulate water through the turbo housing.

There is no need to circulate oil after the engine is turned off because synthetic oil does not coke up at high temperature like dinosaur blood does.

[Beer Goggles]

The E92 has an electric water pump. This cools the turbo after the engine is turned off. The electric waterpump also supplies hotwater to your heater if you use the "Rest" function when you turn the car off. I use the rest function all the time in the winter. I will go shopping and leave the heater on so the car is toasty warm when I get back. I love it!!

Any way, sorry for the digression. The Bimmer turbo is water cooled and oil cooled. When you turn off the engine, if the turbo is still hot, the electric water pump continues to circulate water through the turbo housing.

There is no need to circulate oil after the engine is turned off because synthetic oil does not coke up at high temperature like dinosaur blood does.

Turbos get to over 1000-degrees while running, and well ABOVE synthetic oil break down temps. So yeah.

[MrOffshore]

The E92 has an electric water pump. This cools the turbo after the engine is turned off. The electric waterpump also supplies hotwater to your heater if you use the "Rest" function when you turn the car off. I use the rest function all the time in the winter. I will go shopping and leave the heater on so the car is toasty warm when I get back. I love it!!


How do you use the "rest" function...is it automatic, only on some cars, an option or is this not a real function of the car??

[Blue330i2006]

Interesting you should bring that up. Actually, on newer 5 series and the upcoming 1/3 series, BMW will force you to do so. Just read about it in the BMW magazine. When you come to a stop and put the car in neutral (MT) and take your foot off the clutch, the engine will shut off. When you depress the clutch, the engine will start again. Average traffic light stops are 30 second to 2 minute so I assume BMW believes they can save quite a bit of emissions by doing so. I admit I don't follow BMW recommendation except on very few occasions, but I would welcome such new technology. It doesn't bother me the bit.


this is true but not on the turbo cars.
Let it cool down after hard driving. normal driving no worries.

[ZemogFC]

back to the original point:

modern day turbos are oil and water cooled, and many believe cool-down periods are not necessary under normal conditions, only extreme spririted driving or racing.

if it makes you sleep better at night, let it idle for 20-30 seconds. if you don't feel like sitting there, then don't.

best thing to do is the last mile or two before you get home, just drive easy and don't push it, so it will cool off on it's own before you get home.

I've got a turbo timer on my RX-7, but I only keep it set for 20 seconds.

Exactly. I've gone straight from the RX-7 world to the bimmer world and this thread was cracking me up. Most Rx7 owners say turbo timers are a useless toy on water-cooled turbos.

I realized bmw guys don't have any knowledge on turbos. I guess that is going to have to change now huh?

[E92Vancouver]

How do you use the "rest" function...is it automatic, only on some cars, an option or is this not a real function of the car??

There is a button called "Rest" on cars with climate control. Once the car is turned off, if you press "Rest", the climate control stays on. Hot water is circulated through the heater core and the fan cycles on and off as needed to maintain the desired temperature.

Cars in warmer climates probably do not have this function. It is very cool.

[azhrei]

Mine has it (I've got a 2007 Coupe), so I don't think it's a regional option.