M3 or 911

[Inniswhe]

I am searching for my first weekend fun car and possibly some DE trips to the track. I am 37yrs old and am not able to drive any M3's where I live so I am looking for some opinions here:

I was pretty well set on an 80's 911 but am reconsidering now. I also always liked the looks of the E36 and E46 M's. Have driven other recent BMW's but was not terribly impressed ( not M cars). Probably leaning more to the E36 series due to price (40-90K mileage). I am looking for FUN Factor her, this car will be my stress release and handling is big in my books. What I would like comments on is the following:

1.- How does a E36 M3 with suspension upgrades only compare with a stock 911 carrerra 84-88 vintage ? I know the E36 is supposed to be one great handling car ? What I mean here is what is more fun? Faster on the street , faster around a track?

2. - Reliability of the E36 M3 - Is it very good ? How major are the cooling issues ? Are they easily under control with preventative maintenance?

3. - Do it yourself maintenance - How tough is it , Porsche 911's prior to '89 are fairly straight forward from an electronics perspective. I hear the BMW's can be an electronic nightmare? I will be doing all of my own maintenance with the aid of forums, books, and what ever I can get my hands on.

4. - Headroom - I am 6'3" and wondering if the sunroof models will support my stature without tilting my seat back or do I need a sunroof delete ( hard to find).


I appreciate any comments

[iateyourcheese]

You'll notice that some of the people on this forum (not me...) have really nice daily drivers but then choose the e36 m3 as their track rat. It's just a nice mix of decent reliability, low purchase cost, moderately good handling, etc. It's not a superstar, but there are plenty of aftermarket parts available for it to make it handle better. Oh, and it's a very forgiving car.

There was a Car and Driver article in the 90's about the car being the "Best handling car at any cost" where they compared it to the 911 of the time. Search and you should be able to find it. I don't really buy it, personally. I think they meant to say the M3 was the *easiest* car to drive quickly.

[Balthazarr]

That article is a must read.

[Icecream ///Man]

iateyourcheese: ouch you don't seem to enthusiastic about your m car :rolleyes I've never beat on an old 911 but they're legendary for being tailhappy and tail first is not a good situation in a vintage sportscar. I looked at 80s 911s but the ///M has superior performance and is as practical as a bmw 3 series which won me over.

I don't think it's fair to catagorize e36 m cars as "track rats". They are older and less expensive, but you can search and find many people who went from e36 to e46 reverting back to e36. And yes the won the "Best handling car at any price" according to professionals who drove all the best cars of 1997 (including Porsche 911, Ferrari, Corvette, etc) in the same test.

I've driven many fun cars and I have no plans to get rid of my ///M

[Ron97M3]

I was looking for a performance car which was fun to drive that I could service and that wouldn't drive me to the poor house.

At first I thought a 911s targa would be cool. Loved the look of those.
I started out getting a bunch of porsche books on amazon.com. One of them listed the differences and weaknesses of each year. After reading that I knew the 87 or 88 was the year 911s to have.

Then I got a book on doing engine rebuilds on the 911s this convinced me
It would be $hard$ to find a good mechanist to do the machining on a porsche engine if you wanted. I started to ge the idea it just wouldn't be
cheap to maintain a porsche.

Then a porsche is just a two seater and I wanted to be able to load four.
My insurance also likes 4 doors more than a two seater porsche.

So I went with the M3 and I am happy I did. Meanwhile my neighbor inherited
a 1974 carrera and it sits in his garage because it will cost $30,000 to fix up?
It's a money pit!

[ParadigmGuy]

:round

[Safetywork]

Having owned an '78 911SC (bumped to 3.2 litres), I can say that Porsches are fun to drive. However, it's not as easy to drive as the M. You'll need to "learn" how to drive the Porsche and it's one of those cars that'll reward good driving technique.

The M on the other hand is more balanced and obviously easier to drive. It's more practical and safer. The M is a great car, just a different car then the Porsche.

In terms of maintenance, the aircooled Porsches are rather robust. But as someone has already stated, each has their issues. From an ownership experience, Porsche maintenance isn't very expensive. However if something's goes wrong..... well, then the cost of ownership changes. Porsches in my opinion will keep their values better though, so in the end it might be a wash.

I do miss "piloting" a Porsche and hope to return to the fold someday. Meanwhile the M is a blast to drive.

[pig4bill]

An M3 is easier to drive, but that doesn't always equate to the most fun. A well driven 911 is very hard to beat on track. The weight in the rear is good for braking and laying down the power on corner exit. The dry sump makes a bulletproof oiling system, something the M3 can't claim. The slanted block leads to oil starvation on long left handers if you don't overfill, and sometimes even if you do. But the thing that has claimed more BMW engines than anything else is the money shift. The 911 is basically just as quick in a straight line. The M3 is short on headroom - you'll either need racing seats or a lot of recline.

[DucatiBoy]

Then a porsche is just a two seater and I wanted to be able to load four.
My insurance also likes 4 doors more than a two seater porsche.

I thought that a 911 was a 4 seater. It's not much of a rear seat and you better have small friends, but I could have sworn that it had 4 seats.

[Rennmeister M3]

I thought that a 911 was a 4 seater. It's not much of a rear seat and you better have small friends, but I could have sworn that it had 4 seats.

It does, it has two seats in the rear. It's been like that since the inception of the 911.

[Rennmeister M3]

1.- How does a E36 M3 with suspension upgrades only compare with a stock 911 carrerra 84-88 vintage ? I know the E36 is supposed to be one great handling car ? What I mean here is what is more fun? Faster on the street , faster around a track?

I was born in 84' so watch the vintage remarks :D I don't want to be reminded that at some point I'm going to have to grow up and be old.

The M3 handles better than any torsion bar standard 911 out there. You also don't have to mess with re-indexing the torsion bars and other 911 specific issues. It's a modern coil over shock setup.

A common driver will be able to drive faster in the M3. Being balanced it inspires more confidence and feels very stable. The 911 on the other hand is not very smooth and favors oversteer. Oversteer is fun, but not when you are trying to go fast. Without power steering they have excellent feel, steering is heavy but not obnoxious, and I love the feeling of MR / RR cars on turn-in.

911's have exceptional braking ability when you get sticky tires on them and good brakes. This is something Porsche has led the group with for a good long while.

Weight favors the 911. Hard to get under aircooled RR with a luxury boat.



2. - Reliability of the E36 M3 - Is it very good ? How major are the cooling issues ? Are they easily under control with preventative maintenance?

The cooling maintenance is not a big deal. Replace the radiator, hoses, and thermostat (housing if plastic), and you are set for a long time.

Need I remind you that you are comparing this to a 20+ year old aircooled 911. Both cars can be found in exceptional condition, but buy the wrong one of either and you are going to be doing the full car rebuild. Price heavily favors the M3 in that regards.



3. - Do it yourself maintenance - How tough is it , Porsche 911's prior to '89 are fairly straight forward from an electronics perspective. I hear the BMW's can be an electronic nightmare? I will be doing all of my own maintenance with the aid of forums, books, and what ever I can get my hands on.

Not hard at all. The inline motor has benefits over the flat-6 in some departments (spark plug for example), but I wouldn't consider either car hard to work on.

They are both German cars though, and because of this... they will be 5x's harder than it would had they of been designed by Japanese engineers. Anyone that argues this needs to work on a 92' Honda Civic.

[nick325xit 5spd]

I'd have a hard time recommending an old 911. They'll be slower than an E36 M3, less easy to drive and a lot more difficult to maintain.

I mean, hell, it's a pain in the ass just to add oil to my girlfriend's 993s. And basically one substitutes for the other at the shop. An E36 M3 with the common fail points taken care of (a couple K worth) will be relatively bulletproof.

[SKooT1027]

I thought that a 911 was a 4 seater. It's not much of a rear seat and you better have small friends, but I could have sworn that it had 4 seats.

have you ever been in the back seat of a porsche? It'll make you debate whether or not you really want to call those seats. Strap in a harness and theyre perfect sized for a baby seat though

[Ron97M3]

Little kids maybe, storage yes ... big people no!

[kutscher]

What I would like comments on is the following:

1.- How does a E36 M3 with suspension upgrades only compare with a stock 911 carrerra 84-88 vintage ? I know the E36 is supposed to be one great handling car ? What I mean here is what is more fun? Faster on the street , faster around a track?

-An e36 M3 with coilovers from a reputable company and making sure nothing else is wrong (RTABS or other bushings), will DESTROY a stock 84-88 911 on the track. Handling will be night and day different. I've never been in that series of 911 with an upgraded suspension, so I can't give you insight there. Also remember that early 911s are notorious for big bump steer under compression of the rear suspension which causes sudden snap oversteer, not exactly fun on the track.


2. - Reliability of the E36 M3 - Is it very good ? How major are the cooling issues ? Are they easily under control with preventative maintenance?


-depends on your definition of reliability, but check the FAQs and it'll give you a good idea of the points you need to address


3. - Do it yourself maintenance - How tough is it , Porsche 911's prior to '89 are fairly straight forward from an electronics perspective. I hear the BMW's can be an electronic nightmare? I will be doing all of my own maintenance with the aid of forums, books, and what ever I can get my hands on.

-I find working on my car isn't very hard at all, but that will vary with your experience.


4. - Headroom - I am 6'3" and wondering if the sunroof models will support my stature without tilting my seat back or do I need a sunroof delete ( hard to find).

-tough call, what's your inseam? If you're all legs you might have a chance, but either way you'll have trouble with a helmet on. There are remedies to this but they cost money. If you can find a no-roof e36 BAG IT!

[HBpredhunter]

a 78 sc is superior in every way to the 80's carerras.

the m3 will blow all of the 80s base trim carerras out of the water. a set up 78 sc is a badass car though.

arguably the best year of 911, EVER.

but also sounds like you dont know much about either cars, in which case the porsche is def. not for you.

m3 all the way. 911's are for people who want the next level, and are willing to pay for it.

[MRichmond]

I drove a '98 M3 for seven years until getting an e60 M5 two years ago. I have tracked the M5 extensively, but decided that I wanted a dedicated track car. After considering everything from Nobles to Z06s, I picked up a '98 M3 Coupe yesterday and am about to start the process of making it a true track car. The combination of balance, reliability, cost, steering, and the abundance of aftermarket parts make the E36 M3 a potent contender.

I am 6'2" and have no headroom problems at all (both of mine with sunroofs). I have not yet tried it with a helmet, but I am putting in a race seat anyway.

[RUddin3]

Are you guys actually serious in thinking that and E36 M3 and 1980 vintage 911 are performance competitors? :shifty

A STOCK E36 M3 should destroy a stock 1980s Porsche 911. Both modified to the same level, I think the gap will still exist.

I don't think there's much comparable between the 2 especially since one benefits greatly from a 10-year technological quantum leap compared to the the other. That's no knock against the 911, but the reality of car development and progressing technology.

The only 911s comparable to an E36 M3 are 964s and 993s. Stock tunes, I'd give the nod to the E36 against the 964, but it would be very close against the 993 with the edge probably to the Porsche.

Drive Safely,
Raza

[Mtgman]

Asking bimmerforums? We'll vote for the M3. Post your question on a Porsche forum and see what happens.............

I really like my M3, but I've been considering going to a 911 myself. BMWs are really durable, cheaper to maintain and easier to work on. The 911 requires more skill when driven at limit and the M3 is more forgiving. The good news is you'll enjoy either car!!

[kutscher]

a 78 sc is superior in every way to the 80's carerras.

the m3 will blow all of the 80s base trim carerras out of the water. a set up 78 sc is a badass car though.

arguably the best year of 911, EVER.

m3 all the way. 911's are for people who want the next level, and are willing to pay for it.

I must say I'm intrigued. The SC is a great car, but the best 911 EVER? You sure you didn't mean to type 1973 RS?

While the carreras of the 80s put on weight over the SCs they also increased power and performance as well. I wouldn't be suprised to see a 3.2 Carrera beat a SC in all performance categories with the possible exception of braking.

Once again as it's been stated to the OP (who never seems to have come back?), the e36M3 is a better performing car in every respect, but if you really like the history/panache/mystique of the 911, then buy it, they're still great cars and head turners too.

[Lee101315]

Go to your local events. The E36 is a great car, but the 911 feels a lot more focused.

At early driving skill levels, the E36 seems superior.

At higher power levels on either car (400+WHP), the 911 will put the power down exiting corners, and the E36 will be losing time and traction. The engine belongs at the rear in a high power, pure sports car, although a middle engine is optimal. The reactions are completely different between an F/R and a R/R. If you corner a R/R like a F/R, you are in for an unpleasant suprise. This is what gives the 911 "unfavorable" handling. Once you get used to it though... its very nice

The lightness factor is also big, an 80's 911 weighs 2600-2700. I have helped prepare early 911s that got down to around 1800lbs, you will never see that in an E36.

I would personally use the E36 M3 for AutoX and light track duty, until I felt I needed to get a lot more serious.

[iateyourcheese]

iateyourcheese: ouch you don't seem to enthusiastic about your m car :rolleyes I've never beat on an old 911 but they're legendary for being tailhappy and tail first is not a good situation in a vintage sportscar. I looked at 80s 911s but the ///M has superior performance and is as practical as a bmw 3 series which won me over.

I don't think it's fair to catagorize e36 m cars as "track rats". They are older and less expensive, but you can search and find many people who went from e36 to e46 reverting back to e36. And yes the won the "Best handling car at any price" according to professionals who drove all the best cars of 1997 (including Porsche 911, Ferrari, Corvette, etc) in the same test.

I've driven many fun cars and I have no plans to get rid of my ///M

What I said and what you think I said don't seem to match.

I like my car very much. It's really pretty good, especially considering how cheaply they can be purchased for these days. And mine is one of the four doors, so it can be practical when I need it.

That being said, I stand by my statement that many people on this board have turned their e36 m3's into track rats. Just wander over to the Track sub-forum on here and I think you'll see it's the most common car. heck, just a couple of posts above this we have a person with an e60 M5 who tracks an e36 m3. <-- Perfect example of what I'm talking about.

I'm just not going to say that the e36 M3 is the greatest car of all time... because it's not. But I do agree that it's the better choice when we're debating against an '80s 911.

[M III Pilot]

Well if your idea is to reduce stress, I wouldn't think a tailhappy car that requires great driving to really go fast would be your answer.

[wimpwgn]

An 87-89 3.2 w/ G50 in baltic or venetian blue would be my top choice.

[Inniswhe]

Thanks for all of the great feedback on my questions. I know this is going to be a BMW biased board but I expected some of you to have experience with both cars and appreciate the feedback.
It sounds like an M3 would be a better car for me. From a servicing perspective I grew up on japanese 4 cyl's and plated with the E30 4 cylinders motors a bit in university so the modern BMW technology might be easier to grasp than the air cooled porsche.
Also lower parts prices for BMW is a plus but the 911 depreciation is non existant for the late 80's air cooled cars compared to E36 M's and especially E46 M cars.

I spoke to a friend today who drives and E46 3 Series and knows both the E36 and E46 M's He does some track days and said if there is any way to swing it get an E46 M.
Hard to justify the cost/depreciation of a toy but I will look some at E46's as well. Is a well set up E36M as fun as an E46M keeping in mind that they don't have the power of the newer E36.

Also any more comments on the headroom issue . Any tall E36M / E46M drivers out there. The sunroof delete cars are tough to find so racing seets might be the only choice

[Rennmeister M3]

I don't think you are going to see significant depreciation with the E36 M3. The prices have been fairly stable in the few years I've been looking at them prior to purchasing. The E46 M3 however, will continue to decrease in price yearly.

If you aren't concerned with maintenance, and don't plan on putting alot of miles on the car I would recommend an E30 M3 over the E36. It's a rawer experience, and would be more of what I personally would seek in a fun car.

If I sell my 240SX it will be to buy something else, and an E30 M3 is pretty high on that list.

[Ron97M3]

3. - Do it yourself maintenance - How tough is it , Porsche 911's prior to '89 are fairly straight forward from an electronics perspective. I hear the BMW's can be an electronic nightmare? I will be doing all of my own maintenance with the aid of forums, books, and what ever I can get my hands on.

4. - Headroom - I am 6'3" and wondering if the sunroof models will support my stature without tilting my seat back or do I need a sunroof delete ( hard to find).


I have had a bad brake light switch if you call that bad electrics which I don't. I know the early e36s had bad light sockets in the rear lights perhaps
they can be loose. The wiring from the body to trunk lid gets bent each time the lid is flexed, it appears BMW attempted to upgrade support here from early e36s but it's still a potential problem to be watched over.

I am 6'1" with a 31" inseam (long torso). When I sat in a sunroof coupe my hair rubbed the head liner barely. In my 97 m3 sedan I have tons of room, like inches. I think part is the electric seat but some is the sedan too and I have a sunroof. So a M3 sedan is the one to try a fit in!

I have had my 97 m3 for 4.5 years and 36,000 miles. Nothing of a serious nature has gone wrong with it and the do it yourself maintenance has been
relatively easy and cheap. Just now at 101,000 I have done the radiator, thermostat water pump, and I am doing my shocks and struts too.
I would say $500 a year as do it yourself is probably a good guess, so I think that is nothing! Even a $1000 isn't much. Of course if you did the dealership then I would think $2000+ a year might be a good guess.

[Budget M3]

If you aren't concerned with maintenance, and don't plan on putting alot of miles on the car I would recommend an E30 M3 over the E36. It's a rawer experience, and would be more of what I personally would seek in a fun car.



The e30 M3 is probably more of an apples to apples comparo with a mid-80's aircooled 911. Both are relatively light, about the same hp (stock) and LOTS of fun to drive. If it's only for fun, you can't go wrong with either.

e36 M3 is in a different league...you will definitely go faster in an e36 M3, so it comes down to your definition of "fun". If going fast is your number 1 priority for fun, get the e36 M3. If intangibles like driving a racing legend is near the top of your fun list, go for the e30 M3. If classic bathtub styling and tailhappy rear engined weight bias are your thing (and it IS fun to learn to drive a 911 fast), then go for the 911...

My e36 M3 is my daily driver...not just for fun. The Budget M3 (see below) is just for fun. If I could find a nice e30 M3 that did not cost >$20K, that would be MY choice for a fun car...

[nixtfy]

Presently I use the m3 as my daily driver and partial track car. Certainly the m3 is easier to drive fast, but I would not say that it is any funner than the 911. The inherent challenges in the Porsche design and old technology makes it more challenging and a lot of fun on the street and track. On the street for weekend drives the 911sc wins hands down the air-cooled motor is addicting along with the pure rawness and lightweight of the 911. My 911 is always engaging to drive on the street being a 30 year old car with old technology that one doesn't need to break the speed limit to have fun with it.

Both the m3 and Porsche are great cars. If the car you are purchasing is only for limited weekend use I would probably buy a Porsche. The 911 will hold it's value, if not appreciate being an air cooled Porsche. Secondly, the limited weekend use of the car you purchase will probably negate any reliability issues for either car as they are both pretty reliable sports cars. The Porsche will fill your main goal of letting off steam on weekend drives. Trust me I am always making up errands to do with the 911
The M3 on the other hand is best for all around use, but

[Lee101315]

I have had a bad brake light switch if you call that bad electrics which I don't. I know the early e36s had bad light sockets in the rear lights perhaps
they can be loose. The wiring from the body to trunk lid gets bent each time the lid is flexed, it appears BMW attempted to upgrade support here from early e36s but it's still a potential problem to be watched over.

I am 6'1" with a 31" inseam (long torso). When I sat in a sunroof coupe my hair rubbed the head liner barely. In my 97 m3 sedan I have tons of room, like inches. I think part is the electric seat but some is the sedan too and I have a sunroof. So a M3 sedan is the one to try a fit in!

I have had my 97 m3 for 4.5 years and 36,000 miles. Nothing of a serious nature has gone wrong with it and the do it yourself maintenance has been
relatively easy and cheap. Just now at 101,000 I have done the radiator, thermostat water pump, and I am doing my shocks and struts too.
I would say $500 a year as do it yourself is probably a good guess, so I think that is nothing! Even a $1000 isn't much. Of course if you did the dealership then I would think $2000+ a year might be a good guess.

Regarding lamp repairs,the E36 also has something called a light module. It is expensive . The 911 has a switch, relay, and a headlight. You cant tell a 911 owner it will cost $450 to fix a headlight.

[Ron97M3]

My neighbor with the iinherited 74 carerra in his garage, has already told me
some totally insane prices for porsche parts.

So while a BMW can be $$ a porsche is $$$$ I think.

[99BlkM3]

I love ///My M3

[GG///M3]

Yea your much better off getting a e36 m3 over a 80's 911. I wouldn't get a 911 unless it was a 96-02 911. Btw I'm thinking of selling my m3. :)

[pkracer21j]

I own both, 99 M3 and a 77 930 turbo, BUY THE 911! I love my M, but theres somthing about driving a 911 fast that puts the biggest cheeze on my face. the M's fun, but the 911's a ball.

[95RedBMWe36M50]

I too faced this similar dilemma at 42 years old. I purchased my e36 with sport package new in ’95 and recently retired it as my daily driver. My “dream” car was also the late 80’s 911 for the weekend autocross and track car. After countless hours researching the 911, I came across a thread on the e36. I was (and still am) amazed at the amount of aftermarket performance parts available. What I have learned is a properly equipped e36 will take on just about and 911 on the street. One of the greatest features of the e36 is its nearly perfect 50/50 weight distribution between the front and rear wheels. This enables outstanding cornering abilities that the 911 will never be able to compete with. Next issue is the extreme ease of working on these cars. I have my car completely torn down and it only took one weekend. I’m installing new suspension, a supercharger, new brakes and will have an amazing track car for under $7,200.00 with 300 hp out of a 2.5L engine. Next will be a 3.2L upgrade to push it to 400 hp. These engines are almost bullet proof provided you take care of them.

By a 911 if you want to look good and go straight, purchase an e36 if you want one of the most amazing sleepers around.

Hope this helps.

[wimpwgn]

Yea your much better off getting a e36 m3 over a 80's 911. I wouldn't get a 911 unless it was a 96-02 911. Btw I'm thinking of selling my m3. :)

What do you mean 96-02 911? 95-98 is the aircooled 993, 99-04 is the watercooled 996. If you like 993, why not a 95? If you like the 996, why not the 03-04?

[GGray]

Ive had both. I USE to be a Porsche guy a long time ago. I have driven quite a few 911's on track. I had a 1980 911SC I autocrossed heavily.

Skip any mid 80's 911 over an E36M3...Its slower, handles worse..Harder to drive for a noob, and harder to learn for a Noob...


Any E36 chassis model, M3 especially, are great track and daily drivers. SHIT TON of hot rod parts and interchangable affordable upgrades form various years. easier to drive, also easier to get in WAY over your head due to the high limits you can get being a Noob on track...

911, harder to drive, cost more to maintain, slower...
E36 M3, easier to drive fast, lots of cheap parts, and faster.... AN it has an actual back seat someone over 8 can use..WITH a trunk big enough to stick large crap in....Like track gear ;)

[Inniswhe]

Th guys that have a 911 and an M3 are recommending the 911. The guys that only appear to have M3's are recommending the M3.
Has anyone gone from 911 to M3 for the fun weekend car and was happy with the move.

I thought I was getting convinced to go the M3 route but the recent comments on the fun factor for the 911 are temping me back to the P-car.

Looks like it will be a lottery that I probably can't lose.

[donoman]

I have both. Go with the 911 if it's your dedicated weekend car. Don't let the weenies (except that guy 3 posts above who had both) convince you otherwise.

To give you my take on your questions:

.- Handling: Stock for stock the 911 has better ride quality and is more nimble. The weight of the 911 is less to throw around than the M3. The M3 is more neutral meaning it won't bring the back end around as easily. But the M3 will still get tail-happy for what it is, which is why you may have noticed that BMW went with the staggered wheel setup after 1995.

2. - Reliability of the E36 M3 - From my experience BMW electronics are crap, and all German rubber is crap. But the engines are great. The S52 (E36M3 engine) is known for being bullet-proof. Preventative maintenance is sufficient, it seems. I have owned a 325is (1994) that had over 210K miles (and ran STRONG) before I sold it.

3. - Do it yourself maintenance - How tough is it. E36 isn't bad to work on. Then again the 911 isn't bad either - with the caveat being a few things require you to drop the engine. BUT this is your weekend ride.

4. - Headroom - I am 6'1" and have trouble fitting in both cars with a helmet. I have to recline a bit and neither cars have tilt/telescopic wheel features. I would say you will need a racing seat if you're going to be serious about tracking this car. The E36 has a larger cockpit, though.


I own a 964 and there is no way in hell I would pick my E36M3 over this car unless it was for commuting or picking up friends. Having driven older 911's as well I feel like all the points I'm about to make are valid:

-911 is TACTILE. You won't find as much feedback from a car unless you are driving a Miata R-pkg (I also owned one of these). Steering is precise and fun.

-911 is a totally different beast than any other normal front-engined car. The butt wiggles, the front cuts directions, the noise is behind you. This car is fun to drive. I am not sure if my 964 is faster than my M3 but I'm at the point in life where I don't care. I am not racing for a trophy or sponsorship or points. I drive for the technique aspect and having that tail swing around and hooking it up again at just the right angle with the 911 is something from the gods, let me tell you. I'm not saying this can't be done with an E36 M3. I'm saying I'm not good enough to do it under control with the M3 but I can do it with the 911. YMMV.

-Porsche Club is REALLY cool. And you need to own a Porsche to join. I also belong to BMWCCA for Auto-x, etc, but PCA is very impressive.

-911 has no cup holders --- it was built as a sports car from the ground up.

-H6 engine sounds raw. It sounds ... you need to do YouTube searches and see which sound you like better. The power delivery with the H6 is so smooth. The inline-6 is rev-happy, which I also like as it really comes on as a surge after 5000 RPM. Ahhhh this is so hard as I like both engines but I would pick the 911 still because it's just so smooth! I'm pretty sure the E36 M3 is going to be faster than one of the older 911's but I'm not sure about how it stacks up to the 3.6L in my 964. They're both so fast it doesn't really matter to me. I always scare myself as both cars will reach (very) illegal speeds very quickly.


Nuff said. Drive both cars if you can. I wouldn't want to be a hypocrite and tell you otherwise.

[donoman]

Well if your idea is to reduce stress, I wouldn't think a tailhappy car that requires great driving to really go fast would be your answer.

I disagree with this. To some degree the same logic might be extended to "I wouldn't think a car that requires a clutch and a shift lever to really give the driver an intimate connection to the car would be your answer."

[GGray]

There you have it. Ive had numorous 911's, try this on for size, and P cars...

72 914 ( poke and hope gear box)
73 914 2.0 with hot rod motor and suspension..fun car
77 924 POS got it almost free
80 924 turbo, got it almsot free actually faster than a pick up truck...
84 944 sold one of the SC's to buy....sucked compared to a 911 sold it bought another 911

73 911s
73.5 911 (first car with CIS injection)
75 Carrera with a euro motor 230hp
79 911sc
90 911sc
85 Carrera

I have also owned a crap load of BMW's far to many to list.. MANY E30M3's and E28's..Several E36's...

So when I tell you "from my expierience" I'm not blowing smoke up your bung hole...

ONE of the reasons I sold aall the Porsches and went to BMW's...The people in the BMW CCA, once again inmy expierience, are not as big a snobs...And Yes i have been to a few PCA Parades....

ANYONE who has driven both an early to mid 80's 911 and an E36 BMW will tell you the 911 is much more a demanding car to drive. On track when my car was NA I would practically run the hell over any 80's 911. Now I call them moving chicanes, somewhat like a miata....

Buy an E36M3 you will not regret it....Join the BMW CCA and enjoy the people and club..

Been there done both....

[donoman]

In my experience, out here in the Bay Area, PCA vs. BMWCCA is not really a snobbery thing. But at 29 years old, I'm definitely in the younger 5 percentile at auto-x. Whereas with BMWCCA I would guess I'm in the younger 50 percentile.

[GGray]

In my experience, out here in the Bay Area, PCA vs. BMWCCA is not really a snobbery thing. But at 29 years old, I'm definitely in the younger 5 percentile at auto-x. Whereas with BMWCCA I would guess I'm in the younger 50 percentile.

Im in the middle at 39. Most of my BMW buddies are about my age and come from various backgrounds. The local P car guys are completely different.

We went to Pikes Peak in the 911SC back in 1988. I Drove my SC up to the top of Pikes peak. Which was one of the high points of the trip driving up. Gives a whole new meaning to "large balls" and "racing uphill".. So we get back and this dude has his Cabrio in the wash area. My Dad and I are jabbering away at how cool it was driving up to the top and the guy looks over with a look of horror..."you mean you took your 911 up to the top on the gravel?" our response "errrr yeah its a car..." Then we talk to him about 911's and racing...and what he has done to his car...Turned out basically he had everything you could get hot rod for it...Next...us "so you going to autocross it tomorrow"....His response " NO. I don't abuse my car that way..." At this pont we just decided he was a dipshit and made idle chat until we got the car cleaned up....

Basically the above story kinda typifies the type of people I have ran into over the years who own Porsche's. I call them the "clean car, no balls group"

Over the years the BMW guys I have run into are the "you haven't hit the rev limiter yet!: type of guys....

There are more Porsche owners at the track than back then but they still tend to have the my car is better than yours air about them....

One more thing..Ive taken apart and worked on more crusty 911's than I want to remeber (restored them on the side for 10 years) ALl the BMW's I have worked on are far easier to work on and maintain. If you do your own work like I do that's important.

[Mtgman]

When you attend a HPDE, the typical Porsche owner has a bigger wallet than the BMW owner. You wont see any grease under their fingernails (manicured hands BTW). The BMW owners are more likely to have the hood up tinkering and tuning. While there are exceptions to this, the BMW owners seem a little more grounded and not so arrogant. All that being said, I still admire the 911, especially the 993 for its uniqueness.

Having worked on many makes of cars, I've found BMWs are the easiest to work on, with or without a service manual. If you don't plan on doing any wrenching to your car, then a Porsche might be the car for you. Plan on spending big $$$ on major services for a 911. I highly recommned you talk to a Porsche mechanic about maintenance intervals and costs before you take the 911 plunge. If your pockets are really deep, then buy both cars!

[Inniswhe]

Just so you all know,
I live in PEI Canada, so I don't have to worry about car clubs and the attitudes that go with them . The most I will be doing would be taking this car to Atlantic Motorsports Speedway in Nova Scotia for sime DE days that the NS BMW club puts on . Both BMW's and some Porsche's will be there . Snobbery and attitude are not an issue to me as I am just not close enough to get to involved in these clubs in a big way.

Regarding maintenance, there are a couple mechanics around that would have some familiarity with standard BMW's, no porsche guys, no M car guys.
I will be doing ALL the maintenance and service myself armed with the literature that is available, forums like this and a pretty decent mechanical inclination. I grew up fixing beater jap cars and volvos. If the car is down for repairs for a few weeks no big deal, this will not be my daily driver.

I am all about what is the most fun to drive ( even if may not be the fastest) . I should have clarified that better in the initial post. If the M3 is faster around a twisty road or track than the Porsche but the porsche is more fun than the porsche wins the contest. But if the 911 is that difficult to learn to drive safely in a spirited manner than the m3 may be a better choice.

[Haifisch M3]

M3 all the way

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c338/sharkm3/page3chart.jpg

[GGray]

Just you all know,
I live in PEI Canada, so I don't have to worry about car clubs and the attitudes that go with them . The most I will be doing would be taking this car to Atlantic Motorsports Speedway in Nova Scotia for sime DE days that the NS BMW club puts on . Both BMW's and some Porsche's will be there . Snobbery and attitude are not an issue to me as I am just not close enough to get to involved in these clubs in a big way.

Regarding maintenance, there are a couple mechanics around that would have some familiarity with standard BMW's, no porsche guys, no M car guys.
I will be doing ALL the maintenance and service myself armed with the literature that is available, forums like this and a pretty decent mechanical inclination. I grew up fixing beater jap cars and volvos. If the car is down for repairs for a few weeks no big deal, this will not be my daily driver.

I am all about what is the most fun to drive ( even if may not be the fastest) . I should have clarified that better in the initial post. If the M3 is faster around a twisty road or track than the Porsche but the porsche is more fun than the porsche wins the contest. But if the 911 is that difficult to learn to drive safely in a spirited manner than the m3 may be a better choice.


Based on the above I would say get an E36M3. easy to work on, I do everthing myself too. Not much i will not tackle on my car.

fun...My e36M3 STOCK was about 100x more fun to drive than my Mid 80's 911's. Nothing like the sound of the BMW straight six motor. ANd the thrust even in stock form is great...The nuetral handling on the M3 is far better to learn on than the ass heavy 911. I did enjoy sliding the 911 around the autocross course..It must have looked fast every time I did an autocross i had a line of people wanting to go for a ride:D

The shifter on the 911 was the worst shifter I have ever put my hand on;)

[frayed]

Based on the original post, get an E36 M3.

Dollar for dollar, there isn't a german enthusiast car that can even remotely compete: street, track, performance, speed, feel. The E36 M3 makes older 911s feel, well, old.

OTOH, the 911 is an icon. Like driving a restored hemi cuda or a badass chopper, there's a coolness factor that cannot be denied. . . but this is more about the ownership experience beyond the driving experience.

Depends on what you are after.

[sausrigging]

Based on the original post, get an E36 M3.

Dollar for dollar, there isn't a german enthusiast car that can even remotely compete: street, track, performance, speed, feel. The E36 M3 makes older 911s feel, well, old.

OTOH, the 911 is an icon. Like driving a restored hemi cuda or a badass chopper, there's a coolness factor that cannot be denied. . . but this is more about the ownership experience beyond the driving experience.

Depends on what you are after.
+ 1
If you do end up buying a 911 I have a authority intake mas intake kit
http://www.autothority.com/products/Mass-Flow-Kits.html