eurospec e36 vs e46 m3 [Archive] - Bimmerforums

AMDdude

10-09-2007, 07:29 PM

So I'm always wondered if a eurospec e36 m3 is just as fast or maybe faster than an e46? I know the e36 is down on hp a bit but it's lighter than the e46 I would imagine. Are they close in performance?

morerevsm3

10-09-2007, 11:17 PM

stock for stock, E46 handles better (more neutral) on track and is faster because of it, E46 JUST gets edge in 1/4 mile as well

GazM3

10-10-2007, 05:17 AM

e46 also runs lower gearing, partially offset by larger diameter wheels/tyres esp in 19" guise

synkro

10-10-2007, 05:38 AM

you are comparing with the 3.2l , right ? because I think that between m3 e46 and m3 e36 3.0 is a bigger difference than you say here

jonr

10-10-2007, 06:02 AM

I've had a few straight line drags with the E46 M3 and it's been extremely close indeed with perhaps my car pulling slightly (mine is bone stock). Probably whoever had the least fuel in their tank would clinch it :) I can't comment on cornering but I would definately expect the E46 to be superior due to it's more modern chassis and suspension etc and slightly larger tyres.

There's a few vids on YouTube of the E36 3.2 euro vs the e46 m3 (as well as the 3.2 vs the 3.0 and a 3.2 vs a 3.0 GT) straight line racing.

Jon
-97 M3 Evo

zparker

10-28-2007, 01:07 PM

I am waiting for one to step up on the freeway.....here in dubai

shalashaska1985

10-29-2007, 02:31 PM

I am waiting for one to step up on the freeway.....here in dubai

where ru in dubai????

jvit27

10-29-2007, 04:13 PM

I own both. I think the E36 may have a slight edge powerwise but it's not a fair compromise since it has quite a few mods and my E46 is basically a stock SMG car. E46 chassis is definitely better though.

Rory

10-29-2007, 08:36 PM

I've had a few straight line drags with the E46 M3 and it's been extremely close indeed with perhaps my car pulling slightly (mine is bone stock).
Jon
-97 M3 Evo

+1

My findings too, in fact above 100-120mph it really starts to close in. In reality though nothing really in it.

This is based on a few encounters. (private test tracks of course ;) )

zparker

10-30-2007, 06:01 AM

I am in the JBR in the Marina. Where are you at?

zparker

10-30-2007, 06:04 AM

Did you buy that M3 in sharjah about 2 months ago?

zparker

10-30-2007, 06:10 AM

Oh yeah, i raced one in my US m3 in houston, off the line i got a slight better launch, 2nd gear was neck and neck till 6 grand then he started walking, 3rd gear walking steadily off and then we stopped.

As for the Euro....still waiting....

wingshot

11-01-2007, 09:06 AM

zparker

11-01-2007, 06:06 PM

I think we are talking about S50B32 not B30. B30 is only 290hp rounded up. So yes, e46 m3 will walk all day. We are talking about 321hp and 3100lbs vs 333hp and 3300 lbs with pretty much the same gearing. I think the E46 has a .315 rearend and the e36 has a .318? I will have to check with my friend. He is a master tech at BMW

jvit27

11-01-2007, 06:24 PM

jonr

11-02-2007, 06:48 AM

Our E46 SMG M3 will walk our Euro M3 (s50B30) every time. With my babee driving one or the other, the Euro car will get a quicker launch, but the E46 will even things up by about 35 mph. Up top, it's a little closer for 15-20 mph, if we both launch between 70 and 90, but the E46 just keeps on pulling after that.

The 3.0l is definately slower, I've been up against a couple and pulled away from them every time. Again, there are a few YouTube vids of the S50B30 (and even the lightweight 3.0l GT) vs S50B32 showing the 3.2 pulling away fairly easily.

Jon

morerevsm3

11-02-2007, 10:07 AM

The 3.0l is definately slower, I've been up against a couple and pulled away from them every time. Again, there are a few YouTube vids of the S50B30 (and even the lightweight 3.0l GT) vs S50B32 showing the 3.2 pulling away fairly easily.

Jon

there are currently 2 NA E36 M3's in the world running 12 second 1/4 miles...both S50B30 powered (mine is with unopened motor)

liquidtension

11-02-2007, 10:54 AM

Let's steer this thread clear from a m3 3.0 vs 3.2 iceburg :)
ps: the 3.2's will own the 3.0's any day of the week!

JUST KIDDING! :p

rommelrules

11-02-2007, 12:30 PM

We are talking about 321hp and 3100lbs vs 333hp and 3300 lbs with pretty much the same gearing. I think the E46 has a .315 rearend and the e36 has a .318? I will have to check with my friend. He is a master tech at BMW

Those are incorrect stock weights. Either way, it's irrelevant as the difference in weight between the two can be 100 pounds or 400 pounds
even in stock configuration depending on a variety of factors. And 321 is a little wishful... :devillook

Either way, given comparable conditions and similar factors all across the board, they are close,
but the E46 will inevitably run away at autobahn speeds and on the Ring.

liquidtension

11-02-2007, 12:56 PM

jvit27

11-02-2007, 01:51 PM

by the way, doesnt the m3 evo have 321PS (not Bhp) ? and doesn't the us-spec e46 m3 have 333Bhp? cuz i remember the eurospec e46 m3 had 343PS, 5 extra due to location of cats farther downstream of the headers, and the other 5 extra due to horsepower unit conversions from PS to Bhp, or is it DIN to SAE ? i forgot
can somebody confirm this ?

E46's have 333hp (SAE) in the US, and 343Bhp in Europe. Exactly as you said - about 5hp lost to the cats and 5 lost in the conversion.

321PS for the S50b32 is 310-315hp SAE. There were never any SAE numbers published for Euro motors (for obvious reasons). Since most people dyno between 270-275 at the wheels in stock form, the numbers are spot-on if using a 15% drivetrain loss correction factor.

zparker

11-05-2007, 02:02 PM

look at the top of this window...err i mean page...

Eurospec Conversation about 286hp and 321hp non-US engines and chassis models not normaly found in the United States

jvit27

11-05-2007, 02:27 PM

look at the top of this window...err i mean page...

Eurospec Conversation about 286hp and 321hp non-US engines and chassis models not normaly found in the United States

What's your point? :confused

gobuffs

11-05-2007, 02:46 PM

What's your point? :confused

glad I am not the only one confused by that reply.

TheM3nsah

11-05-2007, 04:38 PM

this is a proper comparison of M against M. finally no BS us e36 v e46. we didnt even get a proper engine!!

zparker

11-06-2007, 03:29 AM

E46's have 333hp (SAE) in the US, and 343Bhp in Europe. Exactly as you said - about 5hp lost to the cats and 5 lost in the conversion.

321PS for the S50b32 is 310-315hp SAE. There were never any SAE numbers published for Euro motors (for obvious reasons). Since most people dyno between 270-275 at the wheels in stock form, the numbers are spot-on if using a 15% drivetrain loss correction factor.

My point was that its 321bhp not 321ps. I have yet to see where it is listed as 321ps. If it is 321ps then it is 316hp, which would be 272.6 rwhp. Lets see what the dyno states.

Now the e46m3 from europe says 343ps. I have seen it in several places now since i looked for it. Some places state 343hp. I guess the only real way to check is dyno the damn things. Converted that is 338hp, which is due to what, different headers?

I will find a dyno hopefully today for a baseline test before i do all my mods for this weekends race.

Party on everyone!!:redspot

abradic

11-09-2007, 02:17 PM

stock for stock, E46 handles better (more neutral) on track and is faster because of it, E46 JUST gets edge in 1/4 mile as well

I was always under the impression that the E36 was the better handling car. Here are a couple lap times from Nurburgring

8:20 --- 148.320 km/h -- BMW M3 E36, 321 PS (Autocar magazine 1997)

8:22 --- 147.749 km/h -- BMW M3 E46, 343 PS/1584 kg (sport auto 12/00)

Although it's only 2 seconds, it's pretty impressive that the E36's older chasis and suspension more than held it's own. It's lighter, evenly balanced, and more agile. The 2 seconds either way could probably be attributed to driver, so I will call them even. Still, the E46 M3 has the gearing advantage and a more modern suspension, yet the E36 has such great handling that it still hangs in there.

morerevsm3

11-09-2007, 08:12 PM

I was always under the impression that the E36 was the better handling car. Here are a couple lap times from Nurburgring

8:20 --- 148.320 km/h -- BMW M3 E36, 321 PS (Autocar magazine 1997)

8:22 --- 147.749 km/h -- BMW M3 E46, 343 PS/1584 kg (sport auto 12/00)

Although it's only 2 seconds, it's pretty impressive that the E36's older chasis and suspension more than held it's own. It's lighter, evenly balanced, and more agile. The 2 seconds either way could probably be attributed to driver, so I will call them even. Still, the E46 M3 has the gearing advantage and a more modern suspension, yet the E36 has such great handling that it still hangs in there.
different drivers on different days make that comparrison worthless, could easily make 30 second difference with slightly damp section of track, or drivers first time at ring etc...

Dispatch20

11-09-2007, 10:22 PM

different drivers on different days make that comparrison worthless, could easily make 30 second difference with slightly damp section of track, or drivers first time at ring etc...

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordschleife_fastest_lap_times the E46 M3 is significantly faster around the Ring than the E36 M3 (321HP), which backs up morerevsm3's statement earlier.

8:22 (E46) vs 8:35 (E36)

I assume they only recorded the best time amongst handfuls of different drivers on different days in that specific car.

zparker

11-10-2007, 01:19 PM

nice llama

haahaa

=BA=

11-16-2007, 04:24 PM

Thing with the ringtimes is that they are driven on different years as well. Usually the sportauto tests are driven by Horst von Saurma or so, and offcourse he gets faster as well. The new pavement this year supposedly allready makes the track 4-5 sec faster. Newer tires with better technology etc.

The E46 M3 had a stiffer suspention setup, but if you look at the geometry the difference between a E36 M3 and a E46 M3 is minimal really.

E36 M3 3.2 and E46 M3 are very compareable in straightline speed and handling, E46 M3 just barely edges it out.

I'd say fit them both with equal tires and drive them across the ring at the same day now and the difference would be way less than 13 sec. Which is not a big thing on 20,6 km really, if you look at the HHR times they are a lot closer. Still E46 M3 has the edge but the same thing goes here, hard to compare 1997 times to 2001 times or so.

wingshot

11-16-2007, 08:37 PM

Just for comparisons, I ran the Euro 3.0 cabrio at the dragstrip this past week. High 13's at 102 mph was about the best I could do on runflat 18" tires. Either axle-hopping all the way through first, or spinning all the way through first and second. I'll take the E46 M3 over for comparison, hopefully before the track shuts down for the winter. I'm expecting that car to run low 13's.

breeze

11-17-2007, 12:28 PM

+1

My findings too, in fact above 100-120mph it really starts to close in. In reality though nothing really in it.

This is based on a few encounters. (private test tracks of course ;) )

My experience is exactly the same - certainly very little in it.

Nizmo

11-19-2007, 06:00 AM

Here in SA a chipped e36 M3 runs with a e46 M3.

COUNA

11-30-2007, 08:55 AM

you are comparing with the 3.2l , right ? because I think that between m3 e46 and m3 e36 3.0 is a bigger difference than you say here
For what i have seen here im Portugal, both the 3.0 and the 3.2, are just as fast.
I'm talking about stock vs. stock.

euro m3

11-30-2007, 03:58 PM

a friend of mine had a 1995 3.0 mint condition (stock) his dad had a 1997 mint 3.2 evo (stock) and the 3.0 was quicker up to 100 mph but evo was slightly quicker after that all in all the evo won by about half a bonnet length over quite a distance

both drivers were equal in terms of competence(driving ability)

what has this got to do with the e46 i hear u say well in comparrison if a 3.0 and 3.2 evo having little in way of a performance gap

its my opinion that the e36 evo against the e46 the e46 would just about edge the e36 evo and if the e46 was to race the 3.0 it would most probably win by about a car length

although condition of cars,weights with drivers,driving ability,weather,tire pressure,amount of fuel and visibilty would all play important factors and also distance of the race.

digger

12-01-2007, 07:27 PM

My point was that its 321bhp not 321ps. I have yet to see where it is listed as 321ps. If it is 321ps then it is 316hp, which would be 272.6 rwhp. Lets see what the dyno states.

Now the e46m3 from europe says 343ps. I have seen it in several places now since i looked for it. Some places state 343hp. I guess the only real way to check is dyno the damn things. Converted that is 338hp, which is due to what, different headers?

I will find a dyno hopefully today for a baseline test before i do all my mods for this weekends race.

Party on everyone!!:redspot

.....Car: PS... HP... KW
E60 M5 507 500.1 372.9
E46 M3 343 338.3 252.3
E92 M3 420 414.3 308.9
E36 M3 321 316.6 236.1
E36 M3 286 282.1 210.4
E39 M5 400 394.5 294.2

PS = metric hp (no longer a statutory unit)
HP SAE = mechanical hp

1 PS = 75 kp·m/s = 0.73549875 kW = 0.9863201652997627 hp (SAE)

so e46 m3 in US is down 5hp and s50b32 does not make 100hp/L on paper let alone dyno numbers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower#PS

zparker

12-03-2007, 05:35 AM

yup i did some hardcore checking and you are correct. No OBD2 and minor mods will raise it to being 100+hp/liter.

Mine dynoed 244.5 with air intake temp being 78(c) due to very poor cold air intake....Crunched the numbers and at 25(c) which was ambient would have put down 291.55, with a 15% dt loss would be 343(hp) at flywheel.

number correction is scientific, still speculation, but will post true numbers with cold air routing to intake.

Oh yeah this was on a DynoDynamics which people cry about low numbers from. I think the error is only 3.5% not 15 like others say.

Lap times only 8.5 seconds behind ZR-06 and E46 CSL...of course i took out the headlight for cold air routing.

morerevsm3

12-03-2007, 08:17 AM

my 3.0L makes 271.3 rwhp on dyno dynamics...

zparker

12-03-2007, 11:17 AM

but thats not sucking in 175degree hot air lol....

dont you have some sick mods as well?

and like i said i recalculated the power output at ambient air temp and it would have been 291.55 :(

korto

12-03-2007, 01:07 PM

I had a run with e46 m3 on highway.
I was driving at approx. 80-100 km/h when e46 m3 joined me from an on-ramp, matching my speed. We were side by side, with me in the left lane, when he stepped on it and gained car length. I was able to gain on him quite quickly, though. Once I pushed it, I kept him in my rear view mirror at a steady distance of 20 meters or so with no problems... max speeds were about 220-250 km/h...
Not sure, but his car probably had no mods...
My car has Hartge exhaust, chip and cams... in German brief document it was rated at 360 HP... I think...

morerevsm3

12-03-2007, 04:12 PM

but thats not sucking in 175degree hot air lol....

dont you have some sick mods as well?

and like i said i recalculated the power output at ambient air temp and it would have been 291.55 :(
the intake temp probe automatically corrects to 20*C, so the numbers you have are the numbers you have on DD

zparker

12-03-2007, 11:56 PM

I will have to check, i have the spreadsheet output from the dyno, it showed the rpm in 120rpm increments, temp every rpm change, afr, lambda, speed, hp at rpm from 1690rpm to 7700. temps rangine from 71.3c to 78.7c.

And if the car was running that weak, there would be absolutley no way it could pull away from slightly modded evos and sti's on the track down the straightaway.

breeze

12-20-2007, 03:27 PM

Hardly scientific but:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss2FgMiv2fo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NlXXqgNfro

:D

Dreamer99

12-20-2007, 05:34 PM

Hardly scientific but:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss2FgMiv2fo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NlXXqgNfro

:D.

The first video is a bit deceiving because the E46 had to slow down for traffic. With the second video it looks to me like the gear ratio of the E46 gives it the jump but the evo blows it away once they get going.