View Full Version : Oil Testing .pdf *Closed as Requested*
TouringDan
10-08-2007, 10:24 PM
VERY interesting stuff on this link.
http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil%20Tests.pdf
As a result, I bit the bullet and bought Royal Purple 15/W40 for the S52. (I've been running M1 for, oh - since it came out.) All I can say is that I am now a convert to RP. It idles smoother, the VANOS noise is completely gone and it just seems to run 'better'.
O'Reilly's Auto Parts has the RP stuff on sale for $23/Gal. Normally, it's $7/qt or so....
ThoreauHD
10-08-2007, 10:45 PM
I wish they tested Amsoil. I use the 5w-40 of that brand.
WolfStrong
10-08-2007, 10:48 PM
I wish they tested Amsoil. I use the 5w-40 of that brand.
Amsoil is fantastic stuff! You really can't go wrong with Amsoil, RP, or Mobile 1.
Rolf Karlstad
10-08-2007, 11:38 PM
Amsoil is fantastic stuff! You really can't go wrong with Amsoil, RP, or Mobile 1.
Speaking as someone with Mobil-1 0W40 in my crankcase right now, ... I'd have to say that I'm not at all happy with the results shown in this test.
1500 PSI? and like 200,000 PSI for the RP?!?
I think I'll be buying some Royal Purple. Or this Penrite with the 300,000 PSI protection, if I can find that.
Itsnotme1988
10-09-2007, 12:19 AM
Wow...just wow....so glad I use RP!!
This "test" has been widely discredited. The 4 ball wear test is for use with greases, not engine oils. You can read more than you ever wanted to about the problems with this test over at bob is the oil guy dot com.
skylinergtr
10-09-2007, 02:16 AM
i use lubro moly 5w-40 synthetic. that was no reviews on that:D i dont know wheather thats good or bad...
TouringDan
10-09-2007, 07:27 AM
This "test" has been widely discredited. The 4 ball wear test is for use with greases, not engine oils. You can read more than you ever wanted to about the problems with this test over at bob is the oil guy dot com.
This isn't the 4-ball test. The machine used in the article I linked features the same machine as the Timken machine featured on the site you mentioned. (http://bobistheoilguy.com/oilshear.htm)
Did you actually read the article I posted or are you simply making un-substantiated accusations?
TouringDan
10-09-2007, 09:40 AM
Update:
In the past, when I went out first thing in the AM and cranked her over, I'd hear the usual valvetrain noise for a second, then it would all quiet down once the OP built up. This happened even immediately after an oil change. This morning, it was silent. No noise whatsoever. I popped the hood and was really impressed at how quiet everything became since I switched. Keep in mind, this is using the exact same viscosity.
For the record, I would have gone with Amsoil, but I couldn't locate it nearby.
ghostryder35
10-09-2007, 09:43 AM
Update:
In the past, when I went out first thing in the AM and cranked her over, I'd hear the usual valvetrain noise for a second, then it would all quiet down once the OP built up. This happened even immediately after an oil change. This morning, it was silent. No noise whatsoever. I popped the hood and was really impressed at how quiet everything became since I switched. Keep in mind, this is using the exact same viscosity.
For the record, I would have gone with Amsoil, but I couldn't locate it nearby.
So I take it your pretty happy?
ghostryder35
10-09-2007, 09:52 AM
damn I just read that article. Pretty amazing stuff. Cant believe how bad the results for the oil I use are. Next oil change defiantly going to change to something else. Maybe the valvoline.
This isn't the 4-ball test. The machine used in the article I linked features the same machine as the Timken machine featured on the site you mentioned. (http://bobistheoilguy.com/oilshear.htm)
Did you actually read the article I posted or are you simply making un-substantiated accusations?
The timkem machine works on exactly the same principal, it places a load on a spinning surface and measures when the film strength of the lubercant breaks down. This only tells you 1) how much film strength the lube has (largely dominated by thickness), and 2) how the last line of defense wear additives like ZDDP are functioning, items that would only come into play if you had a loss of oil pressure.
As I said, this test has been widely discredited, the original publishers even posted a follow up stating they were misinformed. In real applications, their darling oil, the Royal Purple has consistently shown itself to shear out of grade and produce higher wear numbers than it's competition.
TouringDan
10-09-2007, 10:50 AM
The timkem machine works on exactly the same principal, it places a load on a spinning surface and measures when the film strength of the lubercant breaks down. This only tells you 1) how much film strength the lube has (largely dominated by thickness), and 2) how the last line of defense wear additives like ZDDP are functioning, items that would only come into play if you had a loss of oil pressure.
As I said, this test has been widely discredited, the original publishers even posted a follow up stating they were misinformed. In real applications, their darling oil, the Royal Purple has consistently shown itself to shear out of grade and produce higher wear numbers than it's competition.
Cary - are you a retailer for Amsoil or another brand? I searched the threads over at Bob's and found a user-oil-analysis where the owner took the used RP oil to a lab and they checked it. Guess what? After 6,000 miles, the oil showed almost the same specs as the stuff did when it was new. The general consensus over there is that it's good stuff. Yes, it can shear out of grade, but so does M1 and just about every other oil.
Regarding your statement above, I don't know about you - but I am more than a little concerned about protection when/if my pump decides to go south. Also - I went over to the streetcommodores.com site (the original publishers of the doc) and searched for the update you mentioned, and came up with nothing. Same goes for the forums - nothing. No update. The one posting I did find was on 'Bob's' site, and dealt specifically with the .pdf listed above and was posted in May of this year - everyone was waiting for an update, but nothing has been posted yet.
Please post a direct link to the update you cite above, as well as information regarding the higher wear-numbers vs. RP's competition. Until I see those numbers, I am going to take what you say with a grain of salt. I am not a complete RP fanatic - I've only used it once. I am merely interested in giving my mill the best that I can, and doing so based on facts and real-world results.
In my car, the difference has been pretty incredible and I'm not talking out of my ass. I've got many, many years of wrenching under my belt - a few of which were professional.
tar.bz
10-09-2007, 12:14 PM
I'd take the results of that "test" with a pinch of salt. It only measures one aspect of oil peformance in a synthetic environment.
Not to mention that thay never specified if it was run at the correct temperature for the SAE rating (100 degc, 212F IIRC). You could argue that it was under W conditions, but again there are a lot more factors as play other than shear.
The review is borderline pointless IMO.
shrike071 if your oil works for you, that great. But I wouldn't base my choice on that article, you would be just as well off choosing oil by what packaging is prettiest and is the correct SAE viscosity.
/edit
Actually it stands to reason that R51 came out on top in this "test". After glancing at RP's website, R51 is a 20W-50 oil. Its the only oil on the test that has a 20 winter viscosity, so at room temperature its going to be more vicsous than the others in the test at this temp. This info by itself is not really relevant to peformance in your engine though, even when cold.
Cary - are you a retailer for Amsoil or another brand? I searched the threads over at Bob's and found a user-oil-analysis where the owner took the used RP oil to a lab and they checked it. Guess what? After 6,000 miles, the oil showed almost the same specs as the stuff did when it was new. The general consensus over there is that it's good stuff. Yes, it can shear out of grade, but so does M1 and just about every other oil.
Regarding your statement above, I don't know about you - but I am more than a little concerned about protection when/if my pump decides to go south. Also - I went over to the streetcommodores.com site (the original publishers of the doc) and searched for the update you mentioned, and came up with nothing. Same goes for the forums - nothing. No update. The one posting I did find was on 'Bob's' site, and dealt specifically with the .pdf listed above and was posted in May of this year - everyone was waiting for an update, but nothing has been posted yet.
Please post a direct link to the update you cite above, as well as information regarding the higher wear-numbers vs. RP's competition. Until I see those numbers, I am going to take what you say with a grain of salt. I am not a complete RP fanatic - I've only used it once. I am merely interested in giving my mill the best that I can, and doing so based on facts and real-world results.
In my car, the difference has been pretty incredible and I'm not talking out of my ass. I've got many, many years of wrenching under my belt - a few of which were professional.
I don't appreciate the backhanded accusation that I am an Amsoil retailer. If you bothered to read a few of my other posts, you will will see that I am clearly not. I have not ever used Amsoil, in large part because I do not agree with their marketing. They do make a quality product, but I would rather use Mobil 1 with their well researched and developed products.
Real world results are called UOA's, short for used oil analysis. Running a scar wear test on a bench at room temperature is not real world. The UOA's of Royal Purple have not been great, but not horrible either. I have written here before of what to look for in an oil, the most important thing being to start with finding an oil that meets ACEA A3, and better yet one that meets BMW LL-01.
Here is the language of the actual retraction, I don't have the link:
"The information we've learned since then suggests the test we performed may be irrelevant. Some sources have advised us that the test we used would have been better served testing some of our favourite greases rather than the engine oils we commonly use on our street cars. Sure, we did the test with the best intentions, with a level playing field for each oil and no preconceptions as to who would perform better than another, but when, and if, we mess up, we like to think that we're man enough to set the record straight."
Here are few links about the problems with the test and RP shearing issues.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB1&Number=962776&Searchpage=1&Main=962700&Words=%2Broyal+%2Bpurple+%2Btest&topic=&Search=true#Post962776
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB1&Number=888020&Searchpage=2&Main=887672&Words=%2Broyal+%2Bpurple+%2Btest&topic=&Search=true#Post888020
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=865422&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=733709&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1
TouringDan
10-09-2007, 02:08 PM
Here is the language of the actual retraction, I don't have the link:
Thanks for the information and it is interesting, to say the least... I also poured over your links looking for the shear information. The first link is nothing but a bash on that specific test.
The second link, from the same board as above, has nothing other than unsubstantiated claims of shearing out of grade. However, it does contain this:
Actually, you said it sheared to a "low 30wt". So, I had a 2-3 typo.
68.2 SUS is a very thick 30wt bordering the 40wt.
68.2 SUS is 12.47 cst using neptune.spacebears calculator.
Referencing SAE J300, 12.5cst is the cutoff for a 40wt. Get rid of the fuel and it would still be a 40wt.
Seems to me, that this debunks a shearing-problem, at least in this case...
Third link: Another thread from the same forum bashing the test itself.
Link four - more from the same board, and in the M1 Vs. RP vein. Looking at postings across the board over there, one begins to see a trend where RP stuff is trashed with very little merit behind the accusations.
Again, I am not a complete RP convert and I didn't intend for this to evolve into a match. However, what it has done is forced me to go out and do more looking into RP and some of the other oils and the independent testing that has been done. That being said, the results do seem to skew towards Amsoil and Royal Purple. I looked all over 'Bob's' board for bona-fide factual reports that show RP shearing out of grade and came up empty handed.
Like the poster stated above - it's all about what works for you (or me, in this case...) and I am very impressed with the oil and already think it is superior to M1 based on my own experience. Will I have that same opinion in 3k miles? Wait a few months and see....
edirtyfour
10-09-2007, 02:29 PM
Hey, let's not turn this thread into the hating that was going on in the oildrop forums that were linked to. The test isn't very indicative of real life engine conditions, and the creators of the article recognized and publicized that.
Best thing to do is run the two oils in your engine through several oil changes and get a used oil analysis each time. That way you have
a) solid data
b) info on what works best in YOUR engine
Seems to me, that this debunks a shearing-problem, at least in this case...
I looked all over 'Bob's' board for bona-fide factual reports that show RP shearing out of grade and came up empty handed.
You need to do a search under the used oil analysis section to get the data. There are enough UOA's of the Royal Purple that show shearing and medocre reports for me to put it on my pass list.
Being constructive, if you are using RP, be sure to use the 5w-40, as none of their 30 weight oils are ACEA A3 oils (HTHS of 3.5 or higher) which is key in BMW engines.
At the end of the day, if you use the proper weight oil (high 30 weight/low 40 weight) which meets ACEA A3, and change it regularly (7.5k miles is more than adequate for Synthetics) any of the major brand synthetics will be more than adequate.
fkong777
10-09-2007, 05:33 PM
i know for a fact the Lubro Moly MS02 made a noticable difference to engine smoothless and reducing valve train sound.
I use Lubro Moly if it was more easy to find for German car. However I use RP now because I can get it at Pep boys and Kragen.
TouringDan
10-09-2007, 06:15 PM
Being constructive, if you are using RP, be sure to use the 5w-40,
Not in an S52
VWguyBruce
10-09-2007, 07:16 PM
I don't appreciate the backhanded accusation that I am an Amsoil retailer. If you bothered to read a few of my other posts, you will will see that I am clearly not. I have not ever used Amsoil, in large part because I do not agree with their marketing. They do make a quality product, but I would rather use Mobil 1 with their well researched and developed products.
I don't regularly post on this forum or get involved in a discussion as personal as motor oil but I needed to interject.
Not to introduce off topic material into the thread but I am an Amsoil dealer. Don't make it sound dirty gentlemen. It's not Amway for God's sake :D And, to say that Amsoil products are not well researched or developed is plainly incorrect. The history of the company and all the research data is there. Amsoil is not new to the market.
Having said that, I used Mobil 1 for years with great results. My buddies and I like having Amsoil delivered to the house. Mobil 1 doesn't deliver.
All oil works if you keep it clean. However, the benefits of synthetic speak for themselves.
Not in an S52
Last I checked, the S52 used the same oil as all the M50 class engines. The only BMW engines that call for heavier oils (which will still meet A3) are some of the later E46 and E39 Motorsport engines which use 10w-60. Royal Purple's 30 weight oils are formulated with a thickness of 10.5-11 cst @100c, which will not allow for an HTHS of 3.5, they need to get it above the 12 range to hit that (it varies depending on the basestocks, but I have never seen an ACEA A3 oil that is thinner than 12CST @100c.).
I don't regularly post on this forum or get involved in a discussion as personal as motor oil but I needed to interject.
Not to introduce off topic material into the thread but I am an Amsoil dealer. Don't make it sound dirty gentlemen. It's not Amway for God's sake :D And, to say that Amsoil products are not well researched or developed is plainly incorrect. The history of the company and all the research data is there. Amsoil is not new to the market.
I never claimed Amsoil is a bad product, but their marketing does stink. Amsoil makes good products, but their R&D budget is miniscule compared to the major oil producers. Also, most of their products are not actually approved by manufactures, API, and ACEA, (likely due to cost), so they claim they "meet" the standards. While they likely do, it could become an issue if there is a warranty claim that is related to an oil failure.
TouringDan
10-09-2007, 08:18 PM
Last I checked, the S52 used the same oil as all the M50 class engines. The only BMW engines that call for heavier oils (which will still meet A3) are some of the later E46 and E39 Motorsport engines which use 10w-60.
You are mistaken, but I am done dealing with you.
You are mistaken, but I am done dealing with you.
Boy talk about immature. I addressed each issue you brought up and this is your response?!!! :confused How about responding to the issue?
TouringDan
10-09-2007, 08:55 PM
Boy talk about immature. I addressed each issue you brought up and this is your response?!!! :confused How about responding to the issue?
You want to get the fu%k off my back?
I'm Immature? Because I won't play your game anymore? You 'addressed' each issue? No, you merely sought out postings from ONE source that supported YOUR opinion. That isn't the way to construct a strong case, but it is a great way to be a troll on a board. Go back and re-read all of my replies to you. I've been nothing but cordial and above-board with you, but you refuse to see anything other than what you want to see.
I refused to respond to your posting about M3 oil because I don't wish to be baited anymore - that's why. Your search button works as well as mine, Cary. Use it. And stop being such a prick. All you've done in this thread is show everyone what an ass you are and that you won't let anyone express a thought that doesn't coincide with yours. If they do, we're all 'blessed' with your wisdom, whether we want it or not.
You've presented nothing but opinions, really. I've seen no data that I can't easily refute within a few minutes of searching on Google. I presented something I thought was interesting, and still do, but now I am tired of the conversation. More importantly - I am tired of YOU. It's assholes like you that can ruin a board.
Now please, go back to the oil forums or wherever you've been hiding until you can contribute to a conversation like an adult.
Itsnotme1988
10-09-2007, 09:23 PM
You want to get the fu%k off my back?
I'm Immature? Because I won't play your game anymore? You 'addressed' each issue? No, you merely sought out postings from ONE source that supported YOUR opinion. That isn't the way to construct a strong case, but it is a great way to be a troll on a board. Go back and re-read all of my replies to you. I've been nothing but cordial and above-board with you, but you refuse to see anything other than what you want to see.
I refused to respond to your posting about M3 oil because I don't wish to be baited anymore - that's why. Your search button works as well as mine, Cary. Use it. And stop being such a prick. All you've done in this thread is show everyone what an ass you are and that you won't let anyone express a thought that doesn't coincide with yours. If they do, we're all 'blessed' with your wisdom, whether we want it or not.
You've presented nothing but opinions, really. I've seen no data that I can't easily refute within a few minutes of searching on Google. I presented something I thought was interesting, and still do, but now I am tired of the conversation. More importantly - I am tired of YOU. It's assholes like you that can ruin a board.
Now please, go back to the oil forums or wherever you've been hiding until you can contribute to a conversation like an adult.
Here here:redspot
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