BMW vs. Horsepower War

[ThrottleJunkie]

As this horsepower war continues, BMW seems like they won't be able to keep up as they have said numerous times they will never make an FI M model. AMG is making 604 horsepower torque monsters with Biturbo V12s. Audi is obviously not foreign to FI, and are being rumored to use it on their upcoming RS5 and RS6; yet BMW still claims that they will not make an FI M car. What do you think this means for BMWs reputation or the M divisions future? Seems like they are in for some rough times and/or major scrutiny either way

[Ianbiz]

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=836068

[FreewheelBurner]

Engines can get more cylinders and bigger displacement, they have yet to use their v12 in an M model.

Also they could stand to lighten their cars.

[M III Pilot]

You still have to get that power to the ground, otherwise it's just waste!

It's pointless to get into competition if all your competing with is numbers, and you can't actually use it.

[Mitch]

BMW already produced the s70/2 a decade and a half ago. If BMW wants to put a 650hp 6.1L v12 into one of their cars, they can just produce another line of s70/X's.

[ThrottleJunkie]

You still have to get that power to the ground, otherwise it's just waste!

It's pointless to get into competition if all your competing with is numbers, and you can't actually use it.

Yes but MB makes arguably the best transmissions on the market, and those numbers are from the factory and the factory will not make a car that lights up the tires to the point of being hardly drivable.

[Rakshas]

Yes but MB makes arguably the best transmissions on the market, and those numbers are from the factory and the factory will not make a car that lights up the tires to the point of being hardly drivable.

Yeah right they won't, you ever seen an SL65 at the dragstrip?

[ThrottleJunkie]

Yeah right they won't, you ever seen an SL65 at the dragstrip?

No but I'm sure its not as bad as the C6Z06 that will spin the tires in 6th gear at 70 mph

[M III Pilot]

Yes but MB makes arguably the best transmissions on the market, and those numbers are from the factory and the factory will not make a car that lights up the tires to the point of being hardly drivable.
Maybe they do make the best transmissions on the market, but that doesn't overcome the physical limits of grip provided by the tires possibly being overpowerd by all that torque.

And if you have to have some kind of T/C to limit power so you don't smoke the tires, well then it's just wasted since you can't use it.

[mazur]

I bet the reasoning behind no FI in their M cars is because these cars have to be able to be good track cars.

With FI you're going to have lag and/or high ass temps. (based on turbo size). Just look at the oil temps the 335i's are making:help

They'll still kick Mercedes ass around the track. I've seen Top Gear test a 730hp SL600 and it didn't really like going around turns. A Z4Mcoupe was faster around the track.:embarrasm

[Ahmed303]

The Transmission used for the 850 CSi is good for 650+ Hp and torque. The Dinan TT Stage 3 850 has 625Hp and 660lb-ft of Torque using 93 pump gas (PumpedTSi on this forum has one of the 4). I have the stock CSi tranny with 500+ lb-ft of torque using a Spec High Torque Clutch.

I will still keep my CSi Tranny after my SC project and see if it still holds at 600 and so on HP. It's not the HP that tears up the Tranny....It is the Torque.

[Ahmed303]

BMW already produced the s70/2 a decade and a half ago. If BMW wants to put a 650hp 6.1L v12 into one of their cars, they can just produce another line of s70/X's.

Agreed. Here is the S70/3 with 635+ HP cranked out from 6064 CC V12 from 1996. This could have been tuned to crank out 1000+ HP at 9500 RPM.

http://www.e31.net/pics/S701.jpg

And here is the 48 valve M72 that can wring out 600+ hp as well in NA form with some minimal tuning. The V10 is naturally the most unbalanced engine. They should have gone with the V12 enhancement with the ///M5 and ///M6. But then I would not have as much fun ripping them from traffic lights (Yes! I am modded but still NA)

http://www.clube31.net/forum/files/m72_v12_48v.jpg

[Serious]

No but I'm sure its not as bad as the C6Z06 that will spin the tires in 6th gear at 70 mph

jesus, every post you make is completely inaccurate.

a c6 z06 wont spin its tires at 70mph PERIOD. chirp possibly but it definitely not spin.

Do you have any idea what the 6th gear ratio is in a z06? its overdrive and is there for cruising at low rpms, for better gas mileage.

[Serious]

And here is the 48 valve M72 that can wring out 600+ hp as well in NA form with some minimal tuning.

by minimal tuning you mean twin turbochargers?

[ThrottleJunkie]

jesus, every post you make is completely inaccurate.

a c6 z06 wont spin its tires at 70mph PERIOD. chirp possibly but it definitely not spin.

Do you have any idea what the 6th gear ratio is in a z06? its overdrive and is there for cruising at low rpms, for better gas mileage.

Who are you to make the generalization that all of my posts are "completely inaccurate?" Are you stalking me? Have a grudge against me? Someone obviously pissed in your cheerios this morning because I don't recall you ever bringing this up in the 3 years that I have been here...as far as I know, I don't post hearsay. I felt a C6 Z06 spin the tires in 6th at 70. I probably should have mentioned that it was wet which may have had an effect on it, but I never said it left a cloud of smoke behind us, I simply said the tires spun.

Do us all a favor and shove a tampon up your vag cuz no one wants to read your negativity in here. This thread was fine until you decided to jump in. kthxbye

[ThrottleJunkie]

Yeah right they won't, you ever seen an SL65 at the dragstrip?

I think you need to re-read my statement. I said that MB will not release a car that has so much torque that a feather touch of the gas pedal will leave a cloud of smoke. No middle-aged man is going to want the headaches of keeping the car from putting him into a ditch. I simply meant that MB would not allow such a car on the road as they have always put class and comfort ahead of driver interaction. You take an E55 and put the pedal through the floorboard of course it's going to spin the tires; but as far as I know, nobody does that from stoplight to stoplight.

[fcvapor05]

I felt a C6 Z06 spin the tires in 6th at 70.

No offense, but no, you didn't. Unless you were driving in the snow, in which case my old camry would spin 'em at 70.

[MBVette]

I felt a C6 Z06 spin the tires in 6th at 70. I probably should have mentioned that it was wet which may have had an effect on it,


May have had an effect on it? Your driving a high HP car in the rain, of course the tires will slip a bit.

[Hopz]

which models were those s70 engines used in???

[E92!Dreier]

jesus, every post you make is completely inaccurate.

a c6 z06 wont spin its tires at 70mph PERIOD. chirp possibly but it definitely not spin.

Do you have any idea what the 6th gear ratio is in a z06? its overdrive and is there for cruising at low rpms, for better gas mileage.


Incorrect my friend...at 2,000 rpm in 6th gear, if you stomp the gas pedal and stand on it in a C6Z06, you will SMOKE the tires.

If you hit the gas hard in any gear up to fourth in a turn -- slip sliding away.

It also outruns a Ferrari F430 in a 1/4 mile straight line 6 times in a row with the drivers switching every other run.
The vette had two modifications -- the butterfly valves in the exhaust system are now cockpit controlled and the second gear skipping feature is disabled. HP is still 505.

[fcvapor05]

Incorrect my friend...at 2,000 rpm in 6th gear, if you stomp the gas pedal and stand on it in a C6Z06, you will SMOKE the tires.

If you hit the gas hard in any gear up to fourth in a turn -- slip sliding away.

I have driven one hard. No, you won't. 2000 RPM in 6th gear is about 90 mph.

[bigdog68]

Heres the thing, why can't BMW produce high horsepower NA engines? A lot of companys do it, Ferrari and Lambo are NA cars, they have V8 and V12 cars. BMW will adapt and increase HP but its not all about HP when it comes to the roundel. BMW's are all about the balance of power and handling. I DONT CARE THAT MB MAKES A CAR WITH 700+ HP it weighs like 6000lbs or somthing stoooopid like that. I am more than happy with the 200hp E30 M3s and will be extatic when I get behind the wheel of my E90 M3 sedan in Germany May of 09!


(If you want to debate vettes your in the wrong place, great there fast who cares, where you can spin the wheels)

[Garrett M]

This is the most stupid topic and discussion ever. BMW is not a "follow the leader" company.

[Ahmed303]

Anyone know how much the new V8 M3 weighs?

[Garrett M]

Anyone know how much the new V8 M3 weighs?

Less than the S54.

[GreekDriver]

New M3 is in the 3600lb range.

I don't care about power, I care about power to weight ratio. When these guys realize, you dont need gross amounts of power to make a car fast, I'll be happy.

[Garrett M]

New M3 is in the 3600lb range.

I don't care about power, I care about power to weight ratio. When these guys realize, you dont need gross amounts of power to make a car fast, I'll be happy.

:rolleyes

[Ahmed303]

Found it. 1655 KGs or 3648.65 lbs. (http://www.bmwusa.com/NR/rdonlyres/E2DF8A41-714F-4846-9066-E558310AB8D8/0/070405_The_new_BMW_M3.pdf)

A little on the heavy side fon an ///M3. 420 HP is cool but could have used a little more Torque.

[Garrett M]

Found it. 1655 KGs or 3648.65 lbs. (http://www.bmwusa.com/NR/rdonlyres/E2DF8A41-714F-4846-9066-E558310AB8D8/0/070405_The_new_BMW_M3.pdf)

A little on the heavy side fon an ///M3. 420 HP is cool but could have used a little more Torque.

I have actually read or watched several test and all those Europeans say it feels torquey.

[DrRT]

I really hope the M badge turns away from FI.

But at the same time is should get back to its roots, which it has not as of late.

M cars used to be the same as the ones they raced. Today it is M for Marketing.

If they build racing cars and go for weight reduction instead of power increase they will remain the kings among connoiseurs, N/A and all.

Fortunately, I believe M execs have hinted that the new M3 has climbed in weight as much as they are willing to go, so next time we could expect a lighter car.

[Garrett M]

How do you expect BMW to make a light weight M3 when the car it's based off isn't light?

[SpunkyE30nOk]

How do you expect BMW to make a light weight M3 when the car it's based off isn't light? they'll find a way... there is rumored to be an e92 m3 csl in the making, but who knows how many lbs lighter than it'll be compared to a regular M3 model

[Hopz]

all new cars, not just BMW's, are heavier because of increased safety standards and additional equipment. also, most new cars just tend to get bigger because that is the style. im sure the new m3 is probably bigger than an old 7

[Ahmed303]

The 16 speaker 825 watt sound system adds a couple of lbs as well.

[S.Spec]

Yeah right they won't, you ever seen an SL65 at the dragstrip?
+1 Some of the cars Mercedes makes are so insanely powerful that in Sport modes they are hardly controlable. I've been in one that would practically light it at any sense of pressure to the throttle. It was great :redspot

This is the most stupid topic and discussion ever. BMW is not a "follow the leader" company.
+1 I don't think BMW will follow (as much as others) into the HP war. They already have to a degree by producing 414 NA hp in the new M3, but BMW's intention is to make a quicker and more solid car around the track, not to claim the highest HP number. I'm sure if wanted, they could do like Mercedes and build insanely high powered cars, willing to smoke the tires at even the thought of hard acceleration, but if they can spend less time developing the turbo, and more time developing the driving mechanics, they'll end up with the car that feels better and produces quicker lap times, regardless of FI or NA.

How do you expect BMW to make a light weight M3 when the car it's based off isn't light?
The new M3 is 80%+ entirely new parts from it's E92 counterpart. Almost every peice has been replaced with stronger, lighter parts. I expect them to continue that trend and hopefully put even more design time into it for the next generation. I too hope the cars get lighter... but then again that's why the 1 series is coming stateside now :)

[Garrett M]

they'll find a way... there is rumored to be an e92 m3 csl in the making, but who knows how many lbs lighter than it'll be compared to a regular M3 model

Yes exactly a CSL that probably wont available to us and cost a lot more.


all new cars, not just BMW's, are heavier because of increased safety standards and additional equipment. also, most new cars just tend to get bigger because that is the style. im sure the new m3 is probably bigger than an old 7

+1 Saftey standards are killing them.


The 16 speaker 825 watt sound system adds a couple of lbs as well.

It's what the people want, a good system...Besides will that make a difference?




The new M3 is 80%+ entirely new parts from it's E92 counterpart. Almost every peice has been replaced with stronger, lighter parts. I expect them to continue that trend and hopefully put even more design time into it for the next generation. I too hope the cars get lighter... but then again that's why the 1 series is coming stateside now :)


Yes, that is true, but even then the car is on a larger chasis and is over all a larger more heavy car.

And even the 1 series is a porker.

[Ahmed303]

It's what the people want, a good system...Besides will that make a difference?

Personally I like a great sound system. Then I also like a heavier car with gobs of power. But I have different cars for different purpose.

If I had to settle for 1 car that will do it all it would be hard choice.

My Z3M makes 50 feel like 100 and the 860 makes 100 feel like 50. You get the idea.

[Garrett M]

Personally I like a great sound system. Then I also like a heavier car with gobs of power. But I have different cars for different purpose.

If I had to settle for 1 car that will do it all it would be hard choice.

My Z3M makes 50 feel like 100 and the 860 makes 100 feel like 50. You get the idea.

So do I, but I could do without it. The new M3 is proving to be an amazing track car, check out my other thread.

[HBpredhunter]

I felt a C6 Z06 spin the tires in 6th at 70. I probably should have mentioned that it was wet which may have had an effect on it,

any car can spin tires in the rain...... my 85 5th avenua 318 v8 could spin the tires at freeway speed by simply putting it in neutral and dropping it into drive while on the gas, when it was DRY.

z06 is whatever. 911 turbo owns it.

[Juicy Double]

OK, how recent are these statements that bmw won't make an FI car???

I read last year in german rags that SUPERCHARGING will never happen, but turbocharging might.

[ThrottleJunkie]

This is the most stupid topic and discussion ever. BMW is not a "follow the leader" company.

Incorrect. If BMW is not a "follow the leader" company, why are they making a V8 M3? There's no way it could be because Mercedes and Audi use V8's. Not possible. BMW is too elite to follow such companies. Why in the hell would they ever stuff a V8 under the hood when all their competition is doing it? I think its just coincidence too, its ok. :rolleyes


z06 is whatever. 911 turbo owns it.

Also wrong. Apparently you have been living under a rock, otherwise you would have read the articles that show the Z06's laptimes vs the turbo's laptimes on the Nurburgring. Something like 2 or 3 seconds faster. Hmm...methinks you should keep up on the news.

[nleksan]

Heres the thing, why can't BMW produce high horsepower NA engines? A lot of companys do it, Ferrari and Lambo are NA cars, they have V8 and V12 cars. BMW will adapt and increase HP but its not all about HP when it comes to the roundel. BMW's are all about the balance of power and handling. I DONT CARE THAT MB MAKES A CAR WITH 700+ HP it weighs like 6000lbs or somthing stoooopid like that. I am more than happy with the 200hp E30 M3s and will be extatic when I get behind the wheel of my E90 M3 sedan in Germany May of 09!


(If you want to debate vettes your in the wrong place, great there fast who cares, where you can spin the wheels)

The reason most companies aren't making engines like those in Ferrari's and other exotics comes down to a couple reasons:

1) Cost. Do you really expect BMW to put as much research and development into a $60,000 car as Ferrari does for their $240,000 cars? It's what makes an exotic and exotic. That said, for the price, the M3's have all offered excellent engines. Hell, the new V8 revs to what, about 8400RPM? That's insane.
2) Reliability. When was the last time you saw a Ferrari for sale with 100,000 miles. You don't. That is because their engines are BIG MONEY to maintain. Belt services for a 360 can run into five figures. And those are based not only on mileage, but age of the car. And, when something does break, it's insanely expensive to repair. On the other end of the spectrum, you could take a Toyota Camry and beat on the transmission until it drops, and you won't be out more than $2500 for a new one, installed. BMW has managed to find a comfortable place between the two extremes but one that still isn't out of reach for a "normal" person.
3) Need. Car enthusiasts represent a very small percentage of the automotive market. When hairdresser Sally goes to buy herself a new 328i, do you think she cares if it revs to 6500RPM or 8500RPM? I'm going to have to say that she doesn't even know what that means. BMW is not going to make their cars needlessly more expensive to buy if the majority of their market doesn't understand WHY they are becoming more expensive. There is a market for exotics, and their is a market for sporty/luxury. They don't often merge. This is why cars like the MB SLR McLaren and the (old) Jaguar XJ-220 failed (and continue to depreciate considerably), and cars like the Ferrari F40 and Porsche Carrera GT were successful (with the F40 actually appreciating lately, and the CGT holding it's value well). This is also probably why BMW doesn't want to make an ultra-expensive supercar that could (and probably would) end up being part of the former grouping.

I don't think we're ever going to see BMW start making exotics, but they will continue to improve on what they're doing now. They don't need flashy 700hp turbocharged sedans to get brand recognition. What they do need to do is focus on the people that buy their cars that ARE enthusiasts, and start making their M cars a lot lighter weight.

[Ahmed303]

I still want a Jaguar XJ-220. That thing is quicker and faster than a Zonda. (http://www.youtube.com/v/fUNSjyfLqdk)

[bigdog68]

I think you miss understood what I was trying to say nleksan, I mean if BMW wanted to they could build engines like Ferrari that have the big NA numbers and you would be suprised but BMW spends more on research on their 60k car then Ferrari does and it pays off as selling 50000 cars in the 60k range is FAR more profitable then selling 1000 240k cars. When I said BMW will adapt I mean it, they will make cars that will compete and beat their compitition, I dont want BMW to make exotics that would be a mistake, I want them to do what they are doing.

Oh just to let you know my father is a long time Ferrari owner and has put miles on them and they are rather reliable, hell much more so then the Jag XKR he had. My father has a 1971 365GTC4 that has about 80k miles on it he bought it brand new back in 71 and it has stood the test of time, also has a 360 spyder with about 45k miles on it and that has been better than my mothers 02 MB S500 and MUCH beter than my fathers 01 XKR (both since replaced) but the Ferrari is still here, they make quality, trust me!

XKR - 07 SL55
S500 - 07 750Li

[Lezard]

I think BMW SHOULD go turbo for the M series. People will say it's better to have NA power, but I think that's silly, it may be technically impressive, but if the same results can be had from turboing, what's the difference? Other than the turbo offering lower emissions, and greater fuel economy.

I am glad BMW went turbo for the N54, but it seems they did just slap on the turbos. Still rocks though, but you have to appreciate companies like Saab, Audi, and Porsche who design turbos into their cars from the blueprints.

[bmwretard]

No but I'm sure its not as bad as the C6Z06 that will spin the tires in 6th gear at 70 mph


:rofl

[Ahmed303]

BMW Spent 2.2 Billion US$ in developing the E31. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_8_Series) Why can't they spend that kind of money now? Even the prototype ///M8 had 550 HP (that is 50 more than the new ///M6)

[bmwretard]

Incorrect my friend...at 2,000 rpm in 6th gear, if you stomp the gas pedal and stand on it in a C6Z06, you will SMOKE the tires.

Dear god, there's two of them :rofl

[fcvapor05]

Also wrong. Apparently you have been living under a rock, otherwise you would have read the articles that show the Z06's laptimes vs the turbo's laptimes on the Nurburgring. Something like 2 or 3 seconds faster. Hmm...methinks you should keep up on the news.

Apparently, you don't really understand much about lap times. 2 or 3 seconds out of an 8 minute lap is 2 driver mistakes. Those 2 cars are so close it is imposssible to call.

[fcvapor05]

Actually, I am wrong. The fastest lap time run in a C6 Z06 is 7:42. The quickest time in a regular 997 turbo is 7:40. Quickest time for a 997 GT2? 7:32- thats 10 seconds quicker. Looks like maybe you should re-evaluate tour take on how sweet the Z06 is compared to Porsche's offerings.

[bmwretard]

Apparently, you don't really understand much about lap times. 2 or 3 seconds out of an 8 minute lap is 2 driver mistakes. Those 2 cars are so close it is imposssible to call.

You clearly don't fully appreciate who you are talking to. This man has personally felt the wheels spin in a Corvette, in sixth gear, at 70mph. No bullshit. I think he clearly deserves some E-cred.

[Christophorus]

If only it were that easy. Take a look at the maintenance schedule and pricing for that engine. (edit: on why the don't use S70's in production cars)

[bigdog68]

ah ha ha ha ha ha

[M III Pilot]

You clearly don't fully appreciate who you are talking to. This man has personally felt the wheels spin in a Corvette, in sixth gear, at 70mph. No bullshit. I think he clearly deserves some E-cred.
Don't forget....it was in the rain.:D

[M III Pilot]

I think BMW SHOULD go turbo for the M series. People will say it's better to have NA power, but I think that's silly, it may be technically impressive, but if the same results can be had from turboing, what's the difference? Other than the turbo offering lower emissions, and greater fuel economy.

I am glad BMW went turbo for the N54, but it seems they did just slap on the turbos. Still rocks though, but you have to appreciate companies like Saab, Audi, and Porsche who design turbos into their cars from the blueprints.
heat soak...

[Serious]

Actually, I am wrong. The fastest lap time run in a C6 Z06 is 7:42. The quickest time in a regular 997 turbo is 7:40. Quickest time for a 997 GT2? 7:32- thats 10 seconds quicker. Looks like maybe you should re-evaluate tour take on how sweet the Z06 is compared to Porsche's offerings.

2 seconds for an extra $70,000. $35,000 a second.

[GreekDriver]

:rolleyes

What are you rolling your eyes at? Is it too much to ask for a light weight car? The new 135i with some aftermarket parts is going to be urinating all over the new M3 and the sodomizing it in front of little kids. BMW is falling behind and fast.

[Hopz]

What are you rolling your eyes at? Is it too much to ask for a light weight car? The new 135i with some aftermarket parts is going to be urinating all over the new M3 and the sodomizing it in front of little kids. BMW is falling behind and fast.

:rolleyes Stamata na les malakies

[Garrett M]

What are you rolling your eyes at? Is it too much to ask for a light weight car? The new 135i with some aftermarket parts is going to be urinating all over the new M3 and the sodomizing it in front of little kids. BMW is falling behind and fast.

The 135i is by no means a light car either. Go ahead and mod it, lose your warranty and worry about the turbos. Either way the M3 just put some amazing times up in a recent test. Unless that is you only care about straight line speed.

[DrRT]

Actually, I am wrong. The fastest lap time run in a C6 Z06 is 7:42. The quickest time in a regular 997 turbo is 7:40. Quickest time for a 997 GT2? 7:32- thats 10 seconds quicker. Looks like maybe you should re-evaluate tour take on how sweet the Z06 is compared to Porsche's offerings.

Whoever just compared corvettes to porsches should be banned and his house lit on fire.

[DrRT]

What are you rolling your eyes at? Is it too much to ask for a light weight car? The new 135i with some aftermarket parts is going to be urinating all over the new M3 and the sodomizing it in front of little kids. BMW is falling behind and fast.

True.

I bet even the 335i can beat the M3 on power/weight ratio with a little tuning. Swap better shocks, breaks and tires and you could possibly beat the M3 around a track for the same refinement and a LOT less money.

[Garrett M]

True.

I bet even the 335i can beat the M3 on power/weight ratio with a little tuning. Swap better shocks, breaks and tires and you could possibly beat the M3 around a track for the same refinement and a LOT less money.

If you have the money then why not opt for an M3?

[DrRT]

If you have the money then why not opt for an M3?

because for that money you can buy a used 911 GT3

[Bring The Noise]

Whoever just compared corvettes to porsches should be banned and his house lit on fire.

why? because the c6 z06 is faster than any current porsche?

[AddictofE30]

why? because the c6 z06 is faster than any current porsche?

I was going to argue with you, then I saw under your "Cars:"... I assume you must own a Z06, so you clearly know.

[Serious]

Whoever just compared corvettes to porsches should be banned and his house lit on fire.

your right, the corvette is much better then the porsche.:stickoutt

btw ill take that z06 + 70 g's worth of mods vs. 911 turbo anyday.

[Garrett M]

because for that money you can buy a used 911 GT3

If thats the case buy the GT3 over the 335, and little warranty on a Porsche.

[Hopz]

True.

I bet even the 335i can beat the M3 on power/weight ratio with a little tuning. Swap better shocks, breaks and tires and you could possibly beat the M3 around a track for the same refinement and a LOT less money.

:confused How do you see that? So the only difference between an M and a regular 3'er is shocks, brakes and tires? i dont know how much the M3 costs, but lets say to mod the 335 its $1,500 for software, another $2,000 for an exhaust (can go as high as $7,000 with the full supersprint with deleted cats replaced by high flow units), $1,500 for suspension, $6,000 for brakes, and another $5,000 for beefier tires and wheels to accomodate them. so thats close to 17gs more, and u steel dont get a high revving engine made for the track, plus additional components (quicker steering rack, upgraded bushings and other suspension bits such as control arms, etc.) and who KNOWS how much an LSD will cost for the 335, another $5,000+ probably. Along with that you lose reliability and screw up your warranty, and u still dont get a sick high revving race tuned M engine

[Juicy Double]

True.

I bet even the 335i can beat the M3 on power/weight ratio with a little tuning. Swap better shocks, breaks and tires and you could possibly beat the M3 around a track for the same refinement and a LOT less money.

Until an affordable solution for that LSD is available...

Hell the m3 is not a bad deal. For 60K you're getting a car that'll do 0-60 in the low 4's. Not to mention luxury and handling.

[Bring The Noise]

I was going to argue with you, then I saw under your "Cars:"... I assume you must own a Z06, so you clearly know.

:lol

[Juicy Double]

software: 1200-1500
Exhaust/intake:1500-3000
Suspension (sway bars, c/o, other stuff, not to mention the geometry and stuff will be different and advantageous on the M): 2000 - 3000
Nicer wheels/tires: 4000
BBK (though the m3's brakes aren't that great): 3-6K depending on whether you do rears
Aesthetics: who knows, those who don't have M's generally mod their appearance some

It add's up. Consider that a stock 335 won't always be under 40K and that options can send it well over 40. Even if you saved 3-5K in the end, you're car won't have a warranty, and the arguably important fact of owning an M and novelties associated with it.

[Lezard]

The 135i is by no means a light car either. Go ahead and mod it, lose your warranty and worry about the turbos. Either way the M3 just put some amazing times up in a recent test. Unless that is you only care about straight line speed.


Very true! Sure software tuning will problably cost around $500(nowhere near $1,500 like that one guy said, but not holding it against him!) and add a lot of hp for the money. Problably 30-50hp. But I'd like to see the person who would void their warranty on a brand new car, on an unproven engine that already has a history of overheating in daily driving.

I am going to predict right now that the 1-series will not sell well at all in the US. Just like the Audi A3 doesn't sell well. Basically the only buyers will be the people on this forum, and the people who want to get in a new BMW cheaply. Especially with how ugly the 1-series coupe is.

[Ianbiz]

Very true! Sure software tuning will problably cost around $500(nowhere near $1,500 like that one guy said, but not holding it against him!) and add a lot of hp for the money. Problably 30-50hp. But I'd like to see the person who would void their warranty on a brand new car, on an unproven engine that already has a history of overheating in daily driving.

I am going to predict right now that the 1-series will not sell well at all in the US. Just like the Audi A3 doesn't sell well. Basically the only buyers will be the people on this forum, and the people who want to get in a new BMW cheaply. Especially with how ugly the 1-series coupe is.

around $500? Where? The AA software is like 1000 i think.

[nleksan]

I think you miss understood what I was trying to say nleksan, I mean if BMW wanted to they could build engines like Ferrari that have the big NA numbers and you would be suprised but BMW spends more on research on their 60k car then Ferrari does and it pays off as selling 50000 cars in the 60k range is FAR more profitable then selling 1000 240k cars. When I said BMW will adapt I mean it, they will make cars that will compete and beat their compitition, I dont want BMW to make exotics that would be a mistake, I want them to do what they are doing.

Oh just to let you know my father is a long time Ferrari owner and has put miles on them and they are rather reliable, hell much more so then the Jag XKR he had. My father has a 1971 365GTC4 that has about 80k miles on it he bought it brand new back in 71 and it has stood the test of time, also has a 360 spyder with about 45k miles on it and that has been better than my mothers 02 MB S500 and MUCH beter than my fathers 01 XKR (both since replaced) but the Ferrari is still here, they make quality, trust me!

XKR - 07 SL55
S500 - 07 750Li

Actually upon rereading your post, I think I did misunderstand you, and we're on the same page. That said, I still believe what I said was pretty valid. I'm glad you and your family has had good luck with Ferrari's. (Pics of the 365GTC4 or ban!!! lol). But being a member of FChat, it's very common to see people come in asking why this or that doesn't work right, or why they are getting charged so much for service. Keep in mind, also, that I'm located in Cincinnati. There is not a Ferrari service shop within 200 miles of me, so the people around here that have them, don't drive them much.

[GreekDriver]

Very true! Sure software tuning will problably cost around $500(nowhere near $1,500 like that one guy said, but not holding it against him!) and add a lot of hp for the money. Problably 30-50hp. But I'd like to see the person who would void their warranty on a brand new car, on an unproven engine that already has a history of overheating in daily driving.

I am going to predict right now that the 1-series will not sell well at all in the US. Just like the Audi A3 doesn't sell well. Basically the only buyers will be the people on this forum, and the people who want to get in a new BMW cheaply. Especially with how ugly the 1-series coupe is.

Do you really think the 1-Series coupe is ugly? :( I thought it was a pretty nice looking car. You are refering to the coupe right? Not the hatch back?

[SportEvo]

So do I, but I could do without it. The new M3 is proving to be an amazing track car, check out my other thread.

The new M3 out of the box is inferior to a CSL on the track. I've been in both. It is too heavy. It needs to go on a diet.

I expect an aftermarket CSL version will rear its ugly head long before BMW produce one.

[bigdog68]

Nleksan - we are on the same page. Ferrari is not the most reliable but (knock on wood) we have had good luck, and there is a dealer here in Orlando as of the last 7 years. Before that we had to go to Miami or Atlanta for a dealer, however we have a sick mech that is Italian and was trained by Ferrari 40 years ago in Italy at Ferrari that we have trusted forever here in Orlando.

As far a the 135i, people its only like 300+ lbs lighter than the 335i and honestly I would rather have the room for my dollar.

M Cars are special, no matter what people might say they are special. Some people buy them so they can say "Oh uh I have an M" to hell with those people, that is who is diluting the brand. If they then become an enthusiast great but if they think of it as a stepping stone car, to a 911 or somthing else, to hell with them. M, no matter what is special, you all know it too!

[Lezard]

Do you really think the 1-Series coupe is ugly? :( I thought it was a pretty nice looking car. You are refering to the coupe right? Not the hatch back?

Actually I think the hatchback is very good looking! One of the best hatchbacks around. I'd say it looks greater than a Peugeot, but not as good as an A3 or Alfa. And nothing would beat having a rear-drive hatchback.

And about the turbo software. I was just using Audi's aftermarket as an estimating point. The best chips money can buy, which bring out like 40hp cost $500. I would assume that someone has made/will make a cost effective performance chip for BMW. Maybe if they turbo more of their line?

[DrRT]

If thats the case buy the GT3 over the 335, and little warranty on a Porsche.

No.

A used GT3 is a little more than an M3 but a LOT more than a 335i.

[DrRT]

:confused How do you see that? So the only difference between an M and a regular 3'er is shocks, brakes and tires? i dont know how much the M3 costs, but lets say to mod the 335 its $1,500 for software, another $2,000 for an exhaust (can go as high as $7,000 with the full supersprint with deleted cats replaced by high flow units), $1,500 for suspension, $6,000 for brakes, and another $5,000 for beefier tires and wheels to accomodate them. so thats close to 17gs more, and u steel dont get a high revving engine made for the track, plus additional components (quicker steering rack, upgraded bushings and other suspension bits such as control arms, etc.) and who KNOWS how much an LSD will cost for the 335, another $5,000+ probably. Along with that you lose reliability and screw up your warranty, and u still dont get a sick high revving race tuned M engine

You are very biased. It is more like:

software: $1000
LSD: $1500
suspension: $1500
brakes: no need unless you are running 24 hr Le Mans.
rest: no need.
misce: throw another $1000 for misce. like the oil cooler issue.
TOTAL: $5000

And you get an engine with WAY MORE TORQUE and same HP. This will probably beat the M3 on a straight line and match it around the track.

and there is no way the BASE 335i vs. BASE M3 price difference is only $5k. More like 15-20k.

[Juicy Double]

You are very biased. It is more like:

software: $1000
LSD: $1500
suspension: $1500
brakes: no need unless you are running 24 hr Le Mans.
rest: no need.
misce: throw another $1000 for misce. like the oil cooler issue.
TOTAL: $5000

And you get an engine with WAY MORE TORQUE and same HP. This will probably beat the M3 on a straight line and match it around the track.

and there is no way the BASE 335i vs. BASE M3 price difference is only $5k. More like 15-20k.

That is WAY oversimplified, and you know that merely adding up mods like that will not replicate an m3's performace. The suspension performance is not as reducible as merely a set of C/O's which will cost more than 1500. 2 k atleast. AFAIK, an affordable diff solution ahsn't been found yet. And high revs do help on the track as well.

And in the end, the 335 will not have the same feel as the m3. It won't be able to replicate the way the M works with all its parts. I'd rather have a factory m3 than my self built m3.

[bigdog68]

Yeah when it comes to time on the track you just can not replicate the feel of a REAL ///M car, I dont care how many go fast drive right parts you slap on a 335 or any car its not an ///M.

[DrRT]

Yeah when it comes to time on the track you just can not replicate the feel of a REAL ///M car, I dont care how many go fast drive right parts you slap on a 335 or any car its not an ///M.

do you work for their marketing division?

[bigdog68]

Ha ha ha, no I dont but I have loved M's for ever and I have much respect for them. I have some track time in an E36 M3 and love the way that car feels, I drive an E46 325i sedan and have modded it, its fast and feel great on the track but its not an M.

[E92!Dreier]

I have driven one hard. No, you won't. 2000 RPM in 6th gear is about 90 mph.

Yes, at 90, if you stomp the gas and hold it down, in sixth gear, your tires will begin to spin, and eventually smoke.

[DrRT]

Ha ha ha, no I dont but I have loved M's for ever and I have much respect for them. I have some track time in an E36 M3 and love the way that car feels, I drive an E46 325i sedan and have modded it, its fast and feel great on the track but its not an M.

I read that the new M3 has an inferior feel to the old M3 because the steering is a bit numb.

If it wasn't for the fact that the new M3 has adjustable suspension at the touch of a button I would probably rather have the old M3.

[Juicy Double]

I read that the new M3 has an inferior feel to the old M3 because the steering is a bit numb.

If it wasn't for the fact that the new M3 has adjustable suspension at the touch of a button I would probably rather have the old M3.

That doesn't mean the 335 will have better feel. Besides, such a feel isn't as easily rectified by swapping in some C/O's.

I'm also pretty sure that 420 vs 333 would probably convince you also.

[M III Pilot]

That doesn't mean the 335 will have better feel. Besides, such a feel isn't as easily rectified by swapping in some C/O's.

I'm also pretty sure that 420 vs 333 would probably convince you also.
Sure, more power is always nice but only really useful if your comparing straight line acceleration at equal weights.

As soon as it gets twisty, you gotta know how to drive and power won't help as much as you would think.

[SpasticDwarf]

Too many idiots in this thread.

[dihedral]

As this horsepower war continues, BMW seems like they won't be able to keep up as they have said numerous times they will never make an FI M model. AMG is making 604 horsepower torque monsters with Biturbo V12s. Audi is obviously not foreign to FI, and are being rumored to use it on their upcoming RS5 and RS6; yet BMW still claims that they will not make an FI M car. What do you think this means for BMWs reputation or the M divisions future? Seems like they are in for some rough times and/or major scrutiny either way

Rumor on the street is that Daewoo will increase to 89 hp next year.

[Juicy Double]

Sure, more power is always nice but only really useful if your comparing straight line acceleration at equal weights.

As soon as it gets twisty, you gotta know how to drive and power won't help as much as you would think.

Huh? The veyron weighs more but it's still easy to compare its power to any m.

Power to weight ratio is what we're after. I was also saying that even if great C/O kits come out for the 335 (and there are plenty already), even if they handle phenomenally, it'll be next to impossible to replicate the factory feel of a great hadling vehicle. It might even handle better, but the overall design will unlikely provide as well balanced a ride as the factory m because it's limited to the design and characteristics that the 335 carries with it.

[M III Pilot]

Huh? The veyron weighs more but it's still easy to compare its power to any m.

Power to weight ratio is what we're after. I was also saying that even if great C/O kits come out for the 335 (and there are plenty already), even if they handle phenomenally, it'll be next to impossible to replicate the factory feel of a great hadling vehicle. It might even handle better, but the overall design will unlikely provide as well balanced a ride as the factory m because it's limited to the design and characteristics that the 335 carries with it.
Ok now it's just ridiculous, I mean comparing a Veyron to a M....come on man get real.
If your only going to go fast in a straight line, whats the point of having a car designed to handle in the turns.

And even if you have a Veyron you STILL gotta know how to drive it!

Secondly, sure M cars are great but they are still a compromised design as far as I'm concerned, which they should be since they're sold to the public as a road car and not some wannabe boy racer.

Therefore the factory feel and balance, while great, isn't as good as it could be without the compromises no matter the vehicle, even the M cars.