New enthusiast with many questions!

[attack vector]

Greetings 8 series owners!

I do not own an 8 series. However I have been interested in this car for quite some time. I have been to E31.net and have read as much material as I could find in an effort to become more educated about the 8 series before posting here. But I still have a lot to learn. I hope I don't ask too many stupid questions.

Over the last few years my interest in owning an 8 has transformed from a long time crush, to the desire to have more of a meaningful relationship with the car. But before I take the plunge and decide to go hunting for my 'perfect 8'. I wanted to ask some questions about the car and get answers from the people who own them, drive them, and live with them daily.

To help you better understand what I'm looking for out of this car, let me explain how it will be driven and used.

This will be my only car. I will daily drive it, but my commute to work is very short. The car will likely see less then 5,000 miles a year. I live in the midwest (chicago IL region) so the car will get driven in the snow, but it will be garaged, both at my house and at work. As this will be my only car, reliability will be key. Also, I am not a millionaire and the cots of annual maintenance will have to be reasonable. However I understand that this is a special and rare car, and therefore will require special attention and costs from time to time.

That said, my first big question is:

840 -vs- 850 ?
While the thought of owning a V-12 is exotic, it's not a requirement to make me happy. However, horsepower and performance is important. I have read the thread in which Dinan vs Wokke vs Conforti chips are discussed.

How much HP will a chipped 840ci produce? Has anyone dynoed their car?

Will chipping the 840ci sacrifice engine longevity with excessive strain, heat and wear?

Will a chipped 840ci outperform a stock 850ci? My thinking here is that the power to weight ratio might work in favor of a chipped 840 and produce a more 'nimble' car (less nose weight, better 50-50 balance?)

Any other considerations between the two cars other then engine displacement? reliability issues? build quality disparities? other good reasons to get one over the other?

Between the two variants, are there specific production years to avoid?

Any specific transmission types to avoid? I've been told by a fellow 8 series owner that the manual gearboxes are "loose and sloppy" with long throws and that the best transmissions are the 96-97 steptronic semi-autos. Any other thoughts on this?


Okay, my second big question:

average annual costs of maintenance?
what are common problems or failures with an 8 series sporting roughly 50K or 60K miles?

How reliable are the onboard computer systems and wiring harnesses? Any regular experiences with flaky computers, corroded electrical, etc?


3rd:

General reliability:
Has anyone ever had cold-start problems?

Any major recall notices?

Any known problematic variants, transmissions, to stay way from, etc?

Any problems with rust and corrosion to the frame or body? (I'd love to hear from other midwesterner's who deal with winter driving)



And finally, aftermarket support:
Is it hard to find OEM parts for regular maintenance and repairs?

Is it hard to find aftermarket body kits?

Do we have decent performance suspension and brake options?



Phew! I think that's it for now.

I genuinely appreciate everyone taking the time to give me answers and feedback on this. I apologize for asking so many questions at once and for any redundancy. Additionally, if anyone knows of other online resources where I can do some more reading about the 8 series post a link! knowledge is power.

Thanks!

-eric

[JimmyBones]

840 vs 850
1. I would personally go with the 850 because the V12 is just such a great motor. It is generally thought to be more reliable than the V8 on the 7 board but when you have to fix the V12 the price is usually higher because it almost has two of everything and is a very cramped space.
2. A chiped 840 would be close to a normal 850 but I still think that the 850 would win in a race because the weight difference was almost neligible between my 7s and it should be that way for the 8s too.
3. Also the early 840s had a Nikisil block orginially that would fall apart with the high sulfer fuels at the time so stay away from the 93 and 94 840s even with a factory warrenty engine swap because they turn into major money pits. They also had "lifetime fill transmissions" too so I would say as far away from an early 840 as possible espically if it is after 100k miles.
I have never heard of any problems with the manual tranny 850s about things like throw but this is coming from a guy who drove a 93 F-250 with an 8 inch throw and the manual 850 I drove was just a blast. Which makes me want one so bad or just a manual trans for my 750.:devillook

Cost
1. From my personal experience the V12 is cheaper to maintain and use daily but the gas mileage will make you want to think other wise. I also have never had any problems with my electrial equipment other than a gremlin in my tail light.

General reliability
1. A major annoying thing about my 740 did at a cold start was run into a trans fail safe mode where it would go limp with no power to the wheels with a message of "trans program" on the dash. I personally thought that the trans had to warm up or something because it wouldn't do it when the engine was warm or had just been run.
2. As I said before the 93 and 94 840s had a recall on the engines because of the Nikisil blocks and the stupid transmissions had a "lifetime fill" where they worked until they didn't and if you were leaking fluid then you are screwed. My cars had a middle east coast winter and came out ok but now I am like you too, in the mid west and wondering about rust too so your guess is as good as mine.

Parts
1. It can be a pain to find parts some times unless you have a local junkyard or know cheap sites like Bavarian Auto Sport for small things.

[840ways]

Go with the 840Ci. I have two friends with the 850 & 850CSI. I out run the 850 all the time. I have driven both the 850/850 CSI; give me a 840Ci. It's easier/cheaper to Tune.

Both are great Cars. The V12 is going to be pricer to maintain. But if a V12 is what you want go for it!

It's a BMW! These Cars are like Tanks! Some of the Finest Machinery every Built!

You can Supercharge an 840Ci cheaper than Twin Turbo Charging a 850!

As for the Nikisil Cylinder Sleave problem, I have yet to run into a 840Ci with that probably - very rare! M60 engine is really a more Tunable/Power engine!

If you are thinking about more power, get a M60 engine (1994). Have a Cylinder Compression Test done!

840ways to C :redspot

[sama]

Either you've tuned your 840, or your friend has a 5.0l 850 not the 5.4l. Here are some 0-60 figures:

1992 BMW 850i 7.3 15.6
1994 BMW 840Ci 7.4 15.6
1994 BMW 850i 6.3 14.9
1994 BMW 850CSi 5.3 13.9

If you do opt for an 850, make sure it's the 5.4 version as these are more powerful.

Final note, the v12 is a better balanced engine, as per this article (http://www.e31.net/navmisc_e.html)

[attack vector]

Thanks for the great feedback!

So far based on what I'm reading here and also based on what I've been reading in my ongoing research. I'm leaning toward the 850Ci

I did some basic math using the consumption chart over at E31.net and it seems that the mileage difference between the 840 and the 850 really is not that different. Especially with regards to city driving, the consumption rate appears to be the same (roughly 17 liters for every 100km, or 14mpg) Highway the V8 appears to consume less, but as I mentioned my daily commute is very short (less then 10 miles round trip) so I'm not overly concerned with the mileage.

As far as power goes. While it is very important, I've become kind of jaded with regards to power adders and forced induction. I've owned a long legacy of turbo charged Japanese sports cars, and while the boost and rush of power is intoxicating, I've become tired of all the mechanical problems and maintenance issues that begin to plague FI systems once you get up in to the higher mileage and years of age. Oil cooling, intake charge cooling, AF ratio monitoring, oil pressure monitoring and the labyrinth of pipes and hard pressure lines that you need to support the addition of FI... well, I'm simply burned out on it. I've had one too many engine rebuilds due to detonation or blown heads. The thought of going with a naturally aspirated engine sounds like a nice change of pace. And as mentioned, I'm looking for LONG TERM reliability. If I ever get in to modding it most likely won't get past some mild ground FX, some lowering springs and an exhaust.

Anyone have any additional thoughts on the selection of a gearbox?

Which is cheaper to repair or maintain? The 6 speed manual or the steptronic automatic?

Are there differences in the longevity of either gearbox?

Can I expect to go through clutches quickly on the manual?

also I'm having trouble figuring out which years the steptronic (semi-auto) gearbox was put in? 95-97 850Ci ?

Any additional information or interesting facts about these cars is appreciated! Thanks again, I am grateful for the knowledge and experiences you are willing to share about these cars.

[Ahmed303]

Either you've tuned your 840, or your friend has a 5.0l 850 not the 5.4l. Here are some 0-60 figures:

1992 BMW 850i 7.3 15.6
1994 BMW 840Ci 7.4 15.6
1994 BMW 850i 6.3 14.9
1994 BMW 850CSi 5.3 13.9

If you do opt for an 850, make sure it's the 5.4 version as these are more powerful.

Final note, the v12 is a better balanced engine, as per this article (http://www.e31.net/navmisc_e.html)


You forgot mine. LOL.

1992 860Ci 4.4 12.2

My 1997 DINAN 840Ci did 0~60 in 6 seconds flat measured with a G-Tech. I did not take it to the Dragstrip as that was my Autocross car.

To Attack Vector.......

I don't want to get into the 840 vs. 850 debate. I owned/own both and loved them equally. I loved the sound of the V8 with Dinan exhaust and the torque of the V12 is unmatched. They are both easy to tune (Pre 1996) and same in maint cost.

The only thing I would say that, If you are not going to do your own maint/repairs then a 840 should be a good choice. Make sure it has a good service history and you get a complete PPI done.

But if you are willing to do your own work then the V12 is easier to work on (but that is just my experience). It is a 60 degree V as opposed to a V8's 90 degree V. So there is more room to work on things. For example, changing the PCV/VCV valve of the V12 takes about 30 minutes and parts cost is about $100 while the V8 takes 8+ hours and the parts cost is about $400. Same way the V8 has 8 ignition coils at $80 each where the V12 has 2 at $100 each. Also since the V12 has 2 of everything it is easy to swap parts with the other side to pinpoint which part has gone bad and replace.

OTOH, More mechanics and Dealers are familier with the V8 engines as they are common. The parts for the V8 are also available quickly. The V12 parts are special order most of the time. That make regular maint easier.

Decide what you want to get, but make sure you are provided with a complete service history. I will try my best to help you with technical issues and repairs if you want to DIY with whatever limited knowledge I have.

Cheers and Good luck.

[brian2415]

nice car

[Koizumi]

My humble opinion will tell you: 840Ci because they are uncommon and quite simple mechanically under the hood.

Chip an 840 and it becomes a beast. You have to remember though that E31 is a hi-speed GT, not a 0-60 demon. E31 is a verrry heavy & large car.

[840ways]

My humble opinion will tell you: 840Ci because they are uncommon and quite simple mechanically under the hood.

Chip an 840 and it becomes a beast. You have to remember though that E31 is a hi-speed GT, not a 0-60 demon. E31 is a verrry heavy & large car.


Koizumi,

You Hit It Right On-th-Nose! That's what I was trying to Say!!

[attack vector]

Ahmed303:

Thanks for the insights! While I am definitely no mechanic, I do my own general maintenance. I have done head gasket replacements and I have done mild suspension and hub work on my own, so I am not opposed to getting my hands dirty and learning along the way, so long as it doesn't require pulling an engine out. Additionally, I am grateful for the offer of technical assistance and help along the way! Thank you!

Koizumi & 840ways:

I completely understand what you're saying about the general character of the car. The 8 series is most definitely a GT. And at slightly over 2 tonnes it will never be a 0-60 machine. I'm more interested in having some fun on the expressway from time to time >:-]

Do you 840 guys have a place where I can look at some HP estimates or figures of chipped 840s?

Any long term reliability / wear issues with chipping the 840? For example, anyone been running a chipped 840 for 5+ years without incident?

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but you guys are saying that I should go with the M60 motor and avoid the M62 as far as the 840 is concerned?

[840ways]

Ahmed303:

Thanks for the insights! While I am definitely no mechanic, I do my own general maintenance. I have done head gasket replacements and I have done mild suspension and hub work on my own, so I am not opposed to getting my hands dirty and learning along the way, so long as it doesn't require pulling an engine out. Additionally, I am grateful for the offer of technical assistance and help along the way! Thank you!

Koizumi & 840ways:

I completely understand what you're saying about the general character of the car. The 8 series is most definitely a GT. And at slightly over 2 tonnes it will never be a 0-60 machine. I'm more interested in having some fun on the expressway from time to time >:-]

Do you 840 guys have a place where I can look at some HP estimates or figures of chipped 840s?

Any long term reliability / wear issues with chipping the 840? For example, anyone been running a chipped 840 for 5+ years without incident?

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but you guys are saying that I should go with the M60 motor and avoid the M62 as far as the 840 is concerned?


This is by Far one of the Funest (Lots of Torque w/ the weight, lots of momentum Torque) Cars on the Expressway! Just have good brakes!!

When I go to S4, I have to worry about Running-Over other cars & the Police

If you get a 1994 (M60 - Nikisil sleave cyclinder Motor /1995 (depends on Manufacture date), you will have a more Solid engine for Supercharging. (More power/more Durability ODBI). Just make sure that the Sleave were not affected by High Sulfur Gas - very rare! Have a compression Test!

If you get a 1995 (M62 motor) or newer 1996 (M62 motor), you will hav tuning limitation due to OBDII; however you get the Steptronic Tranny!

When I finally rebuild by my engine, I want the Short Block (Nikisil Sleave Cyclinder) & Heads (w/ Double Cam sprocket Chain)!

840way to C

[ELIBEEMER]

I own a 96 850ci.

I highly recommend a later 850ci with the Steptronic transmission.

the First Gear on the Later tranny knocks you deep into your seat when you floor it.

I highly recommend you drive both the 840 and 850 and make your decision....

As for me, I came from a E38 740, and I felt that the V8 wasnt enough, thats why I opted for the 850ci.

-ELI

[attack vector]

ELIBEEMER, thank you for your personal recommendation. I have had other 8 owners mention to me that nothing beats the steptronic. I will keep this in mind as I go on the hunt.

*edit*

I just thought of another question. What is the story with the "electronically limited to 155mph" thing? Is this something that can be removed? For let's say a 96-97 850ci? Do you need a performance chip to remove the limiter? or is this done some other way?


Again, thanks guys!

[Koizumi]

Not sure if it can be removed on OBCII cars (post '95). Pre-'96 cars with OBCI have the limiter removed with the installation of certain chips.

Steptronic is fun, but you will never use it (it ain't the same as having a clutch+manual). I am sure some would disagree, but having owned 2 cars with Steptronic-type action, it's pretty lame :D Just put a chip in your car, put her in Sport Mode, and you will be in bliss. If u want something to shift, get a CSi.

[attack vector]

Not sure if it can be removed on OBCII cars (post '95). Pre-'96 cars with OBCI have the limiter removed with the installation of certain chips.

Steptronic is fun, but you will never use it (it ain't the same as having a clutch+manual). I am sure some would disagree, but having owned 2 cars with Steptronic-type action, it's pretty lame Just put a chip in your car, put her in Sport Mode, and you will be in bliss. If u want something to shift, get a CSi.

Intriguing. Is the steptronic not a true semi-auto gearbox? Meaning that it will not lock and hold a gear up to redline until the driver executes a shift? does the unit eventually kick in to the next gear if no driver input is given? Also, don't get me wrong. I'd love the CSI, but alas, that one is out of my price range.

Also I'm bit confused as to which transmission is available in which variant model. I have read some posts that indicate the 5.4 liter V12 850Ci came ONLY with the steptronic 5-speed?

What cars came with the 6 speed manual? Thus far I'm seeing indications that the 6-speed is available only in the 840ci, 850i, and 850csi ?

Also if someone can clarify which 8-series cars can have the 155mph limiter removed that would be great!

One more slightly unrelated question. I have read the tables indicating the HP ratings for the various 8's over at E31.net. Are these readings crank HP or wheel hp? Can someone direct me to a resource where I can review wheel HP output of each car in stock trim? I ask only because I've heard rumors that the drivetrain loss on these cars is staggering. For example 300hp 850i's only delivering slightly over 200 hp to the wheels. Any truth to these claims?

Thanks again for putting up with my endless stream of questions :-D

*edit*
Okay after more digging I'm getting the idea that removing the speed limiter on the M73 is not easily done. There is a thread on roadfly which I found which seems to debate this issue. Videos and dynographs included. Any thoughts on this?

bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e31/8629967-1.html

[TerryY]

The Early 850 up to and including '93 and the 850CSI are the only 8 Series cars brought to the US with a manual transmission. Numbers were limited on the 850 but all 225 CSI's were 6 speeds.

All 840's and all '94 and up 850's are Automatics.

Early 850 autos were 4 speeds.

The 840 has a non Steptronic 5 speed until the Steptronic was introduced on both the 850 and 840 '96 models.

All pre 1/95 built 840 and 850 can have the 155 mph speed limiter removed easily with some variants of after market chip. Post 1/95 builds are more difficult and may be "impossible" although someone claims that they can now replace the OBD2 chip and remove the limiter. But that isn't commercially available yet.

All of the published data on the horsepower readings on the 8 are crank HP.
I have never seen any collection of wheel HP data. Part of the problem is that most of us really aren't worried about wheel hp--just how fun they are to drive:)

I have heard that measured drive train losses are in the 65 HP range for the 6 speeds and not far from that for the later autos.

[Koizumi]

Steptronic system has a bit of a lag due to the torque converter. This lag is noticeable and is in no way as accurate as the total control one can have whilst firing through the gears on a manual transmission.

Essentially, you can have fun redlining the car coming out of corners, etc, but it is in no way as controllable as a manual transmission. You will never use it once the novelty of it wears off.

I prefer manual transmissions, but day to day traffic jams and such makes an automatic a must for me (if the car is a daily driver). Perhaps the Steptronic transmission is the best of both worlds - but you can't chip a Steptronic transmission...

My car is chipped and is automatic. In S4 mode, the car is one hell of a beast! If you want a race car, I suggest getting a car that is half the weight as the mighty 8. FWIW, the E31 is an excellent cruiser.

Your choice & my 2 cents.

[Ahmed303]

"Steptronic system has a bit of a lag due to the torque converter. This lag is noticeable and is in no way as accurate as the total control one can have whilst firing through the gears on a manual transmission." "but you can't chip a Steptronic transmission.."

Wrong. Where are you coming up with all these crazy information?

My 1997 840 Ci with Steptronic had the Dinan Transmission Chip and ECU and posted better HP and Torque than the Confori Chipped Automatic 850s and 840's

If you look at the following picture of the Dyno event you will see that the pre 96 840s posted 210~211 HP and 206~213 lb-ft of torque where as my 840 posted 228 Hp and 269 lb-ft of torque at the wheels. I had more torque than the chipped 850s. Even for argument sake I say wokke adds 10 HP and 10 lb-ft of torque at the wheels on top of the Conforti Chip (Highly unlikely), It still has a gap of 8+ HP and especially 45+ lb-ft of torque. It will not touch the M62 840s in 0~60 especially with steptronic.

Also for the Autocross and track events the Steptronic is much better especially with a higher lockup. And with DINAN chipped tranny in manual mode will not shift to the next gear even at redline. I continually post 3+ seconds better than a full Auto.

Just my 2 cents....There is NO POSSIBLE WAY the pre 96 840 is better than the 96~97 840. You can bring any point you want and I will give you the "proof" to oppose all of them.

Link to the RoadFly post (http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e31/3721003-1.html)

http://members.roadfly.com/p.devita/results.jpg

[Ahmed303]

Also for everyones record....the M62 can be supercharged to extract more power than the M60.

I have seen an M62 equipped 840 with 467 HP supercharged. and the same setup gave the M60 equipped 840 with 444 HP.

[Koizumi]

I think you misunderstood me...

What I meant was that the pre-'96 cars can be chipped more easily (wasn't talking about the tranny chip either).

Also, I am aware that M62 produces "better numbers" than M60. Aside from that, Steptronic shifting in general still has a lag over manual trannys (not talking about E31 cars, just talking about manual versus tiptronic).

And I was not (and am not) referring to the M62 lagging behind the M60, I was referring to Tiptronic trannys as not being as effiecient as manual trannys.

Cheers :)

[JimmyBones]

Also for the Autocross and track events the Steptronic is much better especially with a higher lockup. And with DINAN chipped tranny in manual mode will not shift to the next gear even at redline. I continually post 3+ seconds better than a full Auto.

Hey what I found to really help with Autocross type events is the self-leveling suspension but I am unsure weither it was offered on the 8s.

Also when you mod the steptronic so that there are behind the steering wheel padel shifters it helps alot with gear changes. Plus it looks cool as hell for the later 850s.:redspot

[attack vector]

Wow! So much information! Thanks everyone. It appears that if I want to mod and tinker then the 840 seems to be the car of choice, or at least the early 90's 8 series cars in general.

Seems the general belief is that the 96-97 850ci cannot really be chipped at all? In spite of this, I found a company called powerchip. I cannot yet post url's but the address is here:

powerchipgroup.com/interact/datasheets/datasheets_two.asp?pid=Bmw0129

The claim that for roughly $2,000 they offer a chip that will take the 850ci from it's stock 320hp/360tq up to 350hp/380tq ?! Any validity to this outfit? Anyone tried them?

Also I hear a lot of BMW guys talking about using something called a VMAX to remove the speed limiter on ANY BMW. Any thoughts on such a blanket claim?

[TerryY]

The last that I remember the PowerChip mod dynos at about 18 HP for $2200 according to a gentleman from RF that had it done to his 850.

The VMAX if it is the same that I found for sale in Germany Without TUV approval was 620 Euros. A Wokke Chip set does it for about $200 --3 chips including the EML chip for the 850i and one for the 840. Unfortunately there isn't enough horsepower to get very far beyond the limiter unless you have either an extensively modified 8 or an 850 CSI which tops out at about 300KPH downhill on the Autobahn.

[Koizumi]

Wokke's chip is worth every penny. Drastic improvement.

[attack vector]

Based on all I have read here I would agree that a "3 chip" setup is the best way to extract power out of the early 850s without the braindamage or expense of a FI solution.

But still my original question stands...

Is chipping a 96/97 850ci undoable?
Does nobody offer a boxed solution?
The research I've posted in this thread thus far suggest that if you have a 96/97 850ci with steptronic, your only two choices are powerchip (which seems really expensive for little return) or to track down that fellow 'firebird' or whatever his name is from my earlier roadfly link with the dyno videos and have him work his proprietary magic on the ECU, which seems a bit scary. If that guy vanishes you'd be SOL should the car ever develop a problem as a result of the mod)

[Auraraptor]

Find out about differences in insurance by your provider. I know my insurance gave me notably different quotes between 850/840.

[attack vector]

Find out about differences in insurance by your provider. I know my insurance gave me notably different quotes between 850/840.

Auraraptor, thanks for the tip. You were right. There is quite a difference between the 840 and the 850! As much as a %15 difference / gap depending on what year / variant I chose.

So far I'm leaning toward the 840. I've been doing an exhaustive amount of reading over at roadfly. On the topics of chipping, long term costs of maintenance, fuel economy, etc... If this was going to just be a summer fun toy I would be more inclined to go with a V-12, but the 'slightly' less exotic requirements of the 840 seem to be more in line with my daily-driver expectations.

What seems to be the most fascinating to me is that the 840's on average fetch a slightly HIGHER price on the market then the 850's ?! How is this possible? Is this just a backlash effect due to the mythic fear people have of the V-12?

[attack vector]

Oh I almost forgot.

Ahmed303: As a previous owner of a 97 840, I have some specific questions for with regards to chipping the 96-97 840's. The gains you made are most impressive and I'm interested in doing this to my own car post purchase.

I read a few posts of yours over at roadfly where you mention that the Dinan transmission chip creates a "gear lock" where the steptronic won't up shift automatically at redline anymore. Did you feel that this modification made the steptronic gearbox less of a gimmick and genuinely added to the performance characteristics?

Do you feel the tranny chip could wear down the life of the steptronic over time?

Is the engine 'chip' upgrade for the 97 840 a plug in chip? or do I need to send my ECU somewhere to get reprogrammed? Same for the tranny?

Thanks Ahmed!