Ultimate euro guide to FI

[liquidtension]

Let us make a thread about forcely inducting the euro S50B30/B32.
This is some stuff i gathered
Anybody with any data,concepts,and real-life experiences please do not hesitate to post.

Some issues that come up:
----------------------------

I've been doing some recent research, apparently some people claim for ~500-600bhp we will need to change the pistons,rods, and work around the stock headgasket because it can not take over 0.9bar of boost. (some solutions comprise of machining the head or block by removing a couple mm's around the surface of the cylinder walls and installing a copper wire there to have a boost-applicable seal.

Many others are having luck just lowering compression via spacers (Erik @ BavariaCars said he can supply one for ~$250) and nothing else.

Proper turbo:
---------------
According to theory, @ 20psi the GT30R and GT35R are both out of the best efficiency island, GT40R would be ideal. T66 would also be good.
Apparently a T66(non ball-bearing) will give full boost of 18psi @ 5200rpm and make ~500whp.

Precision's PT68 journal bearing turbo can support 680hp and spools pretty fast. It costs ~$950.
Theory aside, apparently Mr.Blonde has had good luck with the GT30R, and GT35R on the euro s50 making massive power and spool times of ~3800rpm and recommends them. They cost around $1300.

EFI:
------
SMT-6 and other MAF signal altering piggybacks won't work on the S50B32, they have a limit and the ECU will notice and fix things. Also you will not be able to alter fueling and ignition timing independently.

Many are recommending POWERMOD (found at Erik @ bavariacars.com), it allows you to adjust fueling and timing independently, and has no effect on VANOS EWS and other operations. It costs ~$1100.

MS should be able to work, could use a wasted spark setup with 3 GM coils.
But the vanos would have to be removed. I'm still unsure whether we can trick the ECU into thinking everything is stock and let it run the VANOS by emulating sensors such as replacing the fuel injectors with resistors.

Exhaust Manifold:
------------------
Apparently the e36 325i and US spec M3 manifolds will fit, however they have smaller ports and you'll need to enlarge them which isnt a big deal really. So US-spec turbo manifolds can be used on the euro-spec S50's.

Any comments, corrections, and additional info, greatly appreciated and welcomed!

i will include a PM i received from a member of this board which was very encouraging:buttrock:

"Hi
Here in S.A. we either had the s50b30 or s50b32 so we have done all our work on it by make it or break.
I have a s/c b32, on our dyno it makes 430whp, a stocker on the same dyno makes 260 average. I run a spacer plate, 1mm i think, with 2 head gaskets to lower compresion. Vortech V1 T Trim Blower, intercooler, water meth spray at 1.1bar boost(16psi) onb pump unleaded 95 oct. head and sub are stock. Slight mod on the head as the height changes. Stock head bolts and everything else. Believe it or not occasionally i run around a 80whp nitrous single fogger as well. Dynoed at 510whp at 6500, being a centrifugal blower power peak should be around 550whp at 7600rpm. Calculated back to engine add 100hp to drive the blower plus maybe 80hp drivetrain puts me at around 730crank hp. Thier are about 20 S50b32's supercharged here in S.A., about 5 run with nos. The only failures we've had is ring lans letting go but very seldom. Happened once to me about 10000km ago, could have been detonation or piston fatigue. I wuldn't put this on the forum as not many guys will believe that that figure could be possible on a totally stock motor.
Lastly all our supers run on unichip piggyback, my car runs on two, 1 running the 6 500cc's in stock rail with the timing at +-50% which can be mapped seperately and a second chip running two 500cc's on the charge pipe which feeds above 5500rpm were the s/c really ramps up on power. On pump gas i run 6deg advance above stock timing with fuel ratio's around 11.7. The vanos runs as standard.
This is the reason that i will run the unichip with my current project (Turbo mcoupe, S50b32). My new turbo motor will be fully built though.
My dyno might be unknown to you but a stock s50b32 is rated at 321hp, less 20% max for drivetrain leaves you with around 260whp, just to give you a reference. This engine is strong."
*end of PM*


please help complete this guide..

[Maleckis]

I found some free time and decided to enrich the guide started by Eric. That would be great if everybody, who can add something to the thread, did it.

There were people who have tried to achieve 550-600bhp on stock internals in S50B30/B32 (stock head gasket, connecting rods and shaven down stock pistons). A shaven down stock cast piston heats up in different way and usually its temperature is higher than it would be if piston was stock and untouched. That is why, it often is finished by an engine failure. The weakest parts of the stock engine are piston rings and piston ring-lands. Cracked piston ring-lands are very common on stock cast pistons. A friend of mine from Poland has dynoed 530hp in European version of S50B30 on shaven down stock pistons and stock connecting rods. At compression ratio equal to ~ 9.0:1 he boosted 1.0bar. Piston ring-lands gave up quickly.

With regards to head gaskets, we may also install stock head gasket with pyramid rings, which we can buy in the PPF, apart from o-ringing an engine block but it also requires modifications of surface of the engine block.

This is the picture of prepared S50B32 engine block for pyramid rings from Sweden:

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/3081/kolvariblockdi3.jpg

US-spec turbo exhaust manifolds can be used in euro-spec S50s. However, they need to be modernized and adapted to work properly on our engines. In the USA SPA exhaust manifold is very popular and this one also can be used on euro-spec M3 engines. We would need to enlarge exhaust ports in the manifold to remove a “step”. Euro engines have bigger exhaust ports in a cylinder head than US-spec M3s. From what I know an opening for a wastegate in the SPA manifold has diameter equal to <38mm. We would also need to enlarge this opening to ~45mm. If we are going to install single turbocharger in our euro-spec S50B30/B32 we must use >45mm wastegate to prevent the engine from overboosts.

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/9718/spamanifoldzrozfrezowande5.jpg

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/5113/dsc01481qs8.jpg

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/8462/dsc01482xb3.jpg

It is very hard to tune properly our engines by simply piggybacks. The main problem is when the DME is in closed-loop and then it doesn’t listen anything you tune in a piggyback. For instance, using bigger injectors (such as 550-630cc/min.) we will have AFR 10-11:1 at idle (if our DME isn’t tune for our turbocharger installation). The DME will try to cut an amount of fuel by itself while you're changing V-signals by the piggyback. Then the DME will freak out. AT WOT and in open-loop the DME doesn't change anything.

[purpm3]

I'll chime in with any info I can add.
My e36 3.0 m3 is currently in the shop working out tuning issues.
I have installed a vortech sc and fmic with 42lb injectors.

We are trying a Tec3r PnP EMS from Vic Sias but at the moment it won't play the game - it keeps leaning out about 3500 and 3.5psi - very frustrating.

would like to post photos but don't have enough posts to do so.

[morerevsm3]

you can email them to me (or a link to your photobucket etc) and I will post them for you Simon

[DusM3]

check out Renato's thread,maybe he can be helpful.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=743415

[purpm3]

thanks guys for the info.
I am giving the tuning another week.
if at that time we cant work it all out I will probably take out the Tec3 and follow another avenue.
Nobody seems to know why (including the aussie distributor of electromotive/tec3) but it just won't work the way it should or the way it does in the US spec m3's.
We can start, idle and accelerate but only to 3500 and 3.5psi. no matter what we try to do to it from there it wont put enough fuel in.

bigger injectors wont solve the problem either - tried that with 60's - but it shouldn't need anything more than 42lbs - plenty of fuel pressure, fuel and spark.

moreover now when we try to save a new program into it it just shutsdown. we go to start it and it wont go so we start from scratch again.

me thinks something is not wired right or faulty within the Tec3 but i'm not a mechanic/tuner/computer geek.
i'm hopeful they can work it out between them but in the interim I dont have a car and the $ are mounting.


anyone know of someone with a supercharged euro m3 running tec3 i could bounce some ideas off - or buy the program from???

[Maleckis]

Custom setup installed by Local experts TAS Performance.
Vortech v2sq with RMS pulleys and brackets.
10psi boost is predicted.
Tec3r PnP is PnP on our models and made specially by Vic.
No matter what we punch into the Tec3r at 3500revs it leans out. fuel
pressure ok, injectors ok (42lb) etc etc - it really is frustrating at
this point.
Not even Vic at this point seems to be able to fix the problem.
Not sure about the outputs.
We have a wideband O2 sensor wired in as per Vics suggestion.
Changed to MAP sensor.

There are pictures of PurpM3's supercharged S50B30:

1.
http://lh5.google.com/maleckisPL/R9lM9xScarI/AAAAAAAABPQ/OYNRZexMH3s/s800/webDSC00994.JPG

2.
http://lh5.google.com/maleckisPL/R9lM-xScasI/AAAAAAAABPY/kblRhwWO1vU/s800/webDSC00948.JPG

3.
http://lh6.google.com/maleckisPL/R9lNABScatI/AAAAAAAABPg/uuxpfk87SFs/s800/webDSC00949.JPG

4.
http://lh6.google.com/maleckisPL/R9lNBBScauI/AAAAAAAABPo/YZmDwORHNW8/s800/webDSC00951.JPG

5.
http://lh4.google.com/maleckisPL/R9lNChScavI/AAAAAAAABPw/v-EfjePM-jI/s800/webDSC00952.JPG

6.
http://lh3.google.com/maleckisPL/R9lNERScawI/AAAAAAAABP4/opR71-5w7h0/s800/webDSC00953.JPG

7.
http://lh3.google.com/maleckisPL/R9lNFRScaxI/AAAAAAAABQA/xH76wRoZEvw/s800/webDSC00954.JPG

8.
http://lh4.google.com/maleckisPL/R9lNGhScayI/AAAAAAAABQI/Gh5r0y9WY8Y/s800/webDSC00955.JPG

9.
http://lh6.google.com/maleckisPL/R9lNIBScazI/AAAAAAAABQQ/8aDGST3t_Ko/s800/webDSC00956.JPG

10.
http://lh6.google.com/maleckisPL/R9lNJBSca0I/AAAAAAAABQY/KkkR0c_fDR8/s800/webDSC00957.JPG

11.
http://lh6.google.com/maleckisPL/R9lNKBSca1I/AAAAAAAABQg/tXXB0ruQ3-k/s800/webDSC00959.JPG

12.
http://lh3.google.com/maleckisPL/R9lNLRSca2I/AAAAAAAABQo/O_Jf8u6aDM4/s800/webDSC00980.JPG

13.
http://lh5.google.com/maleckisPL/R9lNNxSca4I/AAAAAAAABQ4/2dynYsRo4kw/s800/webDSC00983.JPG

14.
http://lh6.google.com/maleckisPL/R9lNPBSca5I/AAAAAAAABRA/gypEoLyiUGs/s800/webDSC00984.JPG

15.
http://lh4.google.com/maleckisPL/R9lNQhSca6I/AAAAAAAABRI/4Tn3WQ1DH9o/s800/webDSC00987.JPG

16.
http://lh4.google.com/maleckisPL/R9lNRhSca7I/AAAAAAAABRQ/9-2HENZQ9js/s800/webDSC00988.JPG

17.
http://lh5.google.com/maleckisPL/R9lNSxSca8I/AAAAAAAABRY/Mql2Z6L_6DU/s800/webDSC00981.JPG

18.
http://lh3.google.com/maleckisPL/R9lNURSca9I/AAAAAAAABRg/hPKHStb_ziU/s800/webDSC00989.JPG

19.
http://lh3.google.com/maleckisPL/R9lNVRSca-I/AAAAAAAABRo/XQ5ObYQmCho/s800/webDSC00990.JPG

20.
http://lh4.google.com/maleckisPL/R9lNWhSca_I/AAAAAAAABRw/qYtLfg53zPQ/s800/webDSC00991.JPG

21.
http://lh3.google.com/maleckisPL/R9lNXRScbAI/AAAAAAAABR4/PT2fYj0ga84/s800/webDSC00992.JPG

22.
http://lh4.google.com/maleckisPL/R9lNYhScbBI/AAAAAAAABSA/ZQ6wYbnuwhA/s800/webDSC00993.JPG

[purpm3]

thanks for posting up the pics for me.
all is going well so far with the tuning.
we started from scratch again - reloading the tuning program onto the laptop and starting with a new base tune. whenever we tried to use the supplied tune it would have 'hiccups' for want of a better word.
a corrupt file we think - never seen that before.
tuning mods are all going in so far with no probs.
fingers crossed.

[vision79]

Maleckis: i see u have some pics from our build ;)

We have an issue when plugged the Powermod in that we get some small miss firing , and the AFR is a little worried! it goes up n down through 0.98-1.09 on lamda when going on idle.

I think maby we have soledered the trigger signal earth at wrong point....we r in to this as speaking.

We have a S50B32 M3 E36 late 1997 modell.

Anyone here tuned a S50B32 on boost with Powermod or Morristech?

[foler]

is it possible to anyone write some pricelist for reliable FI project? how much this projects real cost (+-15%)? Price for parts.
I am interested in this but I want reliable car for minimum 80.000km. I will be happy with 450hp (m3 e92 killer).

thanks

[zparker]

I am currently working on a 98 S50b32 project. Motec M600, Cam control option. Will post more info as soon as it is completed.

[S50B30T]

I am currently working on a 98 S50b32 project. Motec M600, Cam control option. Will post more info as soon as it is completed.

How's your project going? Any luck with this?

[fastdrive.org]

is it possible to anyone write some pricelist for reliable FI project? how much this projects real cost (+-15%)? Price for parts.
I am interested in this but I want reliable car for minimum 80.000km. I will be happy with 450hp (m3 e92 killer).

thanks

+1 for especially the 3.2 ,we are in italy two mcoupe euro intrested:)

[JamesM3M5]

I found some free time and decided to enrich the guide started by Eric. That would be great if everybody, who can add something to the thread, did it.
I hope I can help and learn...


There were people who have tried to achieve 550-600bhp on stock internals in S50B30/B32 (stock head gasket, connecting rods and shaven down stock pistons). A shaven down stock cast piston heats up in different way and usually its temperature is higher than it would be if piston was stock and untouched. That is why, it often is finished by an engine failure. The weakest parts of the stock engine are piston rings and piston ring-lands. Cracked piston ring-lands are very common on stock cast pistons. A friend of mine from Poland has dynoed 530hp in European version of S50B30 on shaven down stock pistons and stock connecting rods. At compression ratio equal to ~ 9.0:1 he boosted 1.0bar. Piston ring-lands gave up quickly.
I guess because these engines were designed for high RPMs, and the rings are designed to be lighter and thinner. Lower revs but higher cylinder pressures (such as diesels/turbo diesels) have bigger rings and thicker lands. I've pulled apart a US 3.0L supercharged with broken ring lands. Detonation from continued track use, too much timing in at low loads, etc.


It is very hard to tune properly our engines by simply piggybacks. The main problem is when the DME is in closed-loop and then it doesn’t listen anything you tune in a piggyback. For instance, using bigger injectors (such as 550-630cc/min.) we will have AFR 10-11:1 at idle (if our DME isn’t tune for our turbocharger installation). The DME will try to cut an amount of fuel by itself while you're changing V-signals by the piggyback. Then the DME will freak out. AT WOT and in open-loop the DME doesn't change anything.
What if you were to intervene on the stock crank position sensor with something such as the Split Second FTC-1. You can alter the crank signal to retard timing (this device retards only), then use additional injector controllers based on manifold pressure (after the throttles) to add fuel with more injectors (3 or 6 in our case should do). The Split Second boxes can be a huge PITA to tune, but something else may also be applicable.

I was also wondering (just today, actually) what we could do to keep the stock ECU running the cams, but the load signal is so complex and the ECU is too smart to allow it. You can reflash the ECU, but very few companies do it, and it's not possible to do on a dyno outside of those companies.

Otherwise Pectel, Motec, Haltech, and Autronic are the only boxes I know of that control 2 fully variable cams.

[Maleckis]

What if you were to intervene on the stock crank position sensor with something such as the Split Second FTC-1. You can alter the crank signal to retard timing (this device retards only), then use additional injector controllers based on manifold pressure (after the throttles) to add fuel with more injectors (3 or 6 in our case should do). The Split Second boxes can be a huge PITA to tune, but something else may also be applicable.

I was also wondering (just today, actually) what we could do to keep the stock ECU running the cams, but the load signal is so complex and the ECU is too smart to allow it. You can reflash the ECU, but very few companies do it, and it's not possible to do on a dyno outside of those companies.

Otherwise Pectel, Motec, Haltech, and Autronic are the only boxes I know of that control 2 fully variable cams.
The Polish piggyback unit I was using in my turbocharged M3 Turbo was able to alter crank position sensor which allowed me to adjust spark ignition timing a bit (just +5 degrees or -5 degrees – it is enough for low boost setup like 0.4bar of boost). I don’t know if other piggyback units can read and modify the 60-2 signal, because I had experience only with the Polish one. Over here there is the M50B25 turbo with forged JE pistons which we tuned thanks to additional injectors located in the intake pipe just before the intake manifold. Almost all piggyback units have boost maps and these maps may be used to tune additional injectors. You are able to tune additional injectors fully-variable and create for them their own map based on RPM and load (MAP sensor, TPS or anything else you would like to). We had to put additional injectors because of the maxed out MAF sensor. Due to it we weren’t able to add enough fuel to be safe on the boosted area. We did not want to put bigger injectors in the fuel rail, because it would be a reason for next problem – being too rich during idling or cruising with very low load put on the engine (driving in a vacuum). Using a piggyback unit limits tuning a lot. You control the main fuel maps by changes made to V-signal from the MAF sensor. For instance, you put 450cc/min. injectors in the M50B25 engine and lower V-signal from the MAF to ~0V and the car will be still running rich at idle.
In S50 engines you can unplug injectors from the stock DME and plug them directly to your aftermarket standalone engine management system which will allow you to control fueling without changes made by the DME in fuel maps. We put resistors instead of injectors for the DME and there is even no fault on a computer diagnosis. Ignition, Vanos, idle maps work the same as before.

[fastdrive.org]

just today receive an mail from ostmann in germany,seems they fit the gpower kit:)
http://www.autoservice-ostmann.de/default.php?target=bmw_komp_z3

Die Preis für Kompressor Systeme für den Z3 M sind inkl.Einbau und
Abstimmung auf Prüfstand

EVO I = 9000 Euro inkl.

EVO II = 14000 Euro inkl.

EVO III = 21300 Euro inkl.

Mann muss Super Plus Fahren

Wir Geben 1 Jahr Garantie oder 20Tkm

Ab Evo II muss die Bremse Umgebaut werden

Eine Ostmann Bremse Kostet 2900 Euro inkl.

:D:eek::eek::eek::confused:(

[S50B30T]

Hi All,

I own a Euro Spec M3 that i have turbocharged. I have started a thread about it with some details in the FI section so rather than repeat everything here please click link below....
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1117271

[purpm3]

I am currently working on a 98 S50b32 project. Motec M600, Cam control option. Will post more info as soon as it is completed.


I have now also changed to a Motec M600. The tec3r just wont work.
Controlling the vanos took some time but it works perfectly.
I have a single vanos s50b30 though.

[cedchung]

I have now also changed to a Motec M600. The tec3r just wont work.
Controlling the vanos took some time but it works perfectly.
I have a single vanos s50b30 though.

any pics of your setup?

[purpm3]

all the photos of the daytona m3 above are my setup.
did you need a specific photo thats not shown above?
i have oodles more here on the work computer.


any pics of your setup?

[fastdrive.org]

resume the treadh
At this point,appart the ostamann,anyone know in europe any kit for s50 3.2?
Because naturally see many kit's,but are custom kit..
Other consideration,but whit an fi it's reliable on track or doing 4-5 laps and after require goes slow to refresh,how many milies can live an motor fi?
The fact is really simple,i can spend 5-6k for improve the performace,i will be happy of an improve of around 100hp,but spend 14000k for 450hp doing shortly to change the car ...

[fastdrive.org]

I sent an mail 30 minutes ago,another superchager kit for s50
http://www.dmperformance.fr/realisationsz3mkomp.htm
I am really curios ,nobody know it?

[camlob]

I sent an mail 30 minutes ago,another superchager kit for s50
http://www.dmperformance.fr/realisationsz3mkomp.htm
I am really curios ,nobody know it?

I would like to know as well. Like you, I noticed most FI kits are custom and none from the bigger shops. I actually am also content on +100hp.

[fastdrive.org]

receive the reply 7.800 euros whitout installation
Not bad price,if consider gpower ask 20.000 euros for same evo II kit..but it's to much money to spend today on z3m coupe:(

[calypsoSA]

Try www.savspeed.co.za (http://www.savspeed.co.za), they might be a little cheaper because the South African currency is currently rather weak.

[S50B30T]

As a matter of interest to all the guys that have/are interested in turbo/supercharging their Euro S50B30 engines, I got my hands on a standard piston and cut it in half. I was surprised at how soft/easy it was to machine the cast piston on the mill. Most of the forged pistons I have modified/milled previously have been very “chewy/hard” to machine.

It has been mentioned that ring lands have broken on these pistons. Id be interested in what boost/power output the limit really is before the pistons ring lands give up bearing in mind that the tune be detonation free.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c77/BMEP/S50B30_cut2.jpg

[liquidtension]

IIRC, Maleckis used to tell me that 450bhp is the limit on these engines..

[S50B30T]

450bhp is the limit on these engines..

Are you refering to RWHP or Flywheel HP?

Thanks.

[liquidtension]

flywheel

[2filthy3]

I've been looking at the DTA ecu's...

A wiring diargram for vanos and `picks is included.



V40.00 Release:- Single and Twin VANOS Support

V40.00 Release of the S series software and firmware adds the following abilities:-

Single VANOS support for the BMW S50B30 engine using an S80. Full wiring instructions for crank and cam sensors as well as the cam actuation solenoids is on the wiring diagram.
Twin VANOS support for the BMW S50B32 engine using an S100. A full map for this engine will be included in the software distribution soon.

[S50B30T]

Just an update for those interested in this topic, I’ve been pushing 13psi boost threw the stock S50B30 on pump fuel for approx 3,500kms and the head gasket finally let go.

However I believe that the head gasket could have contained the Cyl pressure for a longer period of time (how long I don’t know) had the previous owner of the car regularly changed the coolant every two years as it was evident when i disassembled the engine that there was corrosion/rust of the head gaskets inner steel frame that would have aided in supporting the fire ring as can been seen in the pic……

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c77/BMEP/HG001.jpg

The pistons ring lands looked fine with evidence of blow by past the top and second rings. When I removed the rings it was obvious that the rings had lost tension hence the blow by. I’d say that the rings had lost tension due to the steel/materials used in the OEM rings not being up to the task of handling the added cylinder temps in turbocharged form and loosing tension over time.

My disclaimer…Before anyone decided to rush out and push 13psi boost threw a stock S50B30 keep in mind that I have been Pro tuning for over 15 years. There is no doubt engine longevity is heavily influenced by the tune so don’t go trying to blame me if you hurt the engine. I’m mentioning this as I have seen people hurt engines at 5 psi boost due to poor tuning.