staggered setup?

[jaross]

The guy at the most trusted BMW/porche shop in town said that a staggered wheel setup is bad for handleing and just promotes understeer. Is that true?

Heres the setup I would be looking at:
Racing Dynamics RGQ wheels all around.

17x8 in front
18x8.5 in rear

should I go for it?

[German Pride 10]

I've had my staggered 18x8.5 and 18x9.5 SSR GT3's for a week now and have not noticed any "promoted" understeer. Still feels just as balanced as my 17x8's were.

[Daved]

It's true. Some people will notice it, some people will not but it's there.

I don't know how many times I have said to go with a neutral set-up.

It also lets you rotate the wheels.

[volcomnator999]

really...then why did the LTW's come staggard??

[FreewheelBurner]

I thought the e36 had a special deal with the suspension that made it so the tires couldn't be rotated due to unbalanced tire wear.

Pretty much most new sport packaged BMWs have staggered wheels out of the factory.

[jaross]

It's true. Some people will notice it, some people will not but it's there.

I don't know how many times I have said to go with a neutral set-up.

It also lets you rotate the wheels.

so, maybe a little more about my situation:

I bought the 17x8 RGQs for maybe $250 shipped.
I have snows on my stock wheels which are on the car right now.
what I want to do, is put summer tires on another set of wheels, thats what I bought the RGQs for. My only option right now may be to get tires that fit the stock wheels, or, get a staggared setup like the on described in the OP.

so should I go with stock 15"s or the staggared setup i mentioned?

[e36bmdub]

understeer or not being able to rotate the tires wouldnt bother me since saggered wheels are BADASS!

[cooljess76]

Staggered wheels will have slightly worse handling and are a PITA when it comes time for rotating tires. Most low profile performance tires are directional, which means if you want to rotate the tires, you have to remove them from the rim and then remount and balance them. If you go with a neutral setup, your car will handle better and you could rotate your tires from front to back without dismounting the tires from the rims. Staggered wheels are stictly cosmetic. The only benefit is improved traction upon takeoffs, but unless your car is hevily modified, you really have no need for wider rear tires. Trust me, if your car is lowered you're going to want to rotate your tires frequently.

[cosmos schwarz]

all understeer is lost with a little poke from your big toe anyway. go for it.

to be honest i found even putting just wider tyres on the rear did make the front of my car slide out a little bit. when i say little, very little. you can either floor it, clutch kick(not advisable, but i dont give a fook) or let off quickly depending what gear your in to correct this.

[Daved]

Read this thread, guys:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=690801

[The HACK]

I've had my staggered 18x8.5 and 18x9.5 SSR GT3's for a week now and have not noticed any "promoted" understeer. Still feels just as balanced as my 17x8's were.

You've got to push the limits of the car in order to feel "understeer" or "oversteer". If you just drive around town like a grandma you can put 105s up front and 305s in the back and the car will still feel just as "neutral" to you.

[The HACK]

really...then why did the LTW's come staggard??

MARKETING.

[Daved]

MARKETING.
:werd:

It's amazing how the people thinks that just because BMW does it that way it's because it's the best way.

They need to sell the cars to make money, that goes before anything else, like it or not.

[coldblooded 328]

if your not tracking or auto-x, more than likely you will not be able to tell the difference.

[patmcd]

really...then why did the LTW's come staggard??

BMW switched to staggered wheels to increase the amount of understeer in 96+ cars.

[lmartin5]

besides it looks great, on the right car of course

[asianvenom]

horse shit...I can rotate my car fine with stagger set-up by stiff'n up my rear end...People always say go un-stagger it's better...to me its not...you're be able to rotate more cuz the rear is slipping...if you put more tires in the rear (staggered) it will stop reduce slipping/rotate right? if you're reduce your car's ability to grip, isn't that reducing the ability of your car's handle at it's limit?

Now my justification..if you want un-staggered setup...wouldn't be better to run wider front (same as the rear's original size 245/245 wide) to make it rotate? cuz you have more grip in the front same grip on the back will cause the car to rotate/oversteer more right? Ok I can understand that...

Now what I don't understand is, people go un-staggered...by reducing the rear at the same time widen the front example 235/235 wide...now your car will rotate/oversteer more right? ok this is true...but the reason that it's oversteered isn't because the rear ability to grip is reduced? by going 235 from 245 wide? now wouldn't that reduced it's ability to handle at is limit?

you be the judge.

[cooljess76]

horse shit...I can rotate my car fine with stagger set-up by stiff'n up my rear end...People always say go un-stagger it's better...to me its not...you're be able to rotate more cuz the rear is slipping...if you put more tires in the rear (staggered) it will stop reduce slipping/rotate right? if you're reduce your car's ability to grip, isn't that reducing the ability of your car's handle at it's limit?

Now my justification..if you want un-staggered setup...wouldn't be better to run wider front (same as the rear's original size 245/245 wide) to make it rotate? cuz you have more grip in the front same grip on the back will cause the car to rotate/oversteer more right? Ok I can understand that...

Now what I don't understand is, people go un-staggered...by reducing the rear at the same time widen the front example 235/235 wide...now your car will rotate/oversteer more right? ok this is true...but the reason that it's oversteered isn't because the rear ability to grip is reduced? by going 235 from 245 wide? now wouldn't that reduced it's ability to handle at is limit?

you be the judge.
No explanation neccesary, You're an idiot. The End

[Daved]

if your not tracking or auto-x, more than likely you will not be able to tell the difference.
You will be able to tell the difference if you take corners fast in the streets but you won't...

...If you just drive around town like a grandma you can put 105s up front and 305s in the back and the car will still feel just as "neutral" to you.

[Daved]

besides it looks great, on the right car of course
Sorry but staggered set-ups look stupid to me when they're not needed. I have seen FWD cars with staggered set-ups... (like Preludes).

[elh0102]

horse shit...I can rotate my car fine with stagger set-up by stiff'n up my rear end

Now what I don't understand is, people go un-staggered...by reducing the rear at the same time widen the front

you be the judge.

By stiffening the rear, you are doing the same thing as those who reduce rear tire size, and probably even to a greater degree. In both cases you are achieving less understeer by giving up some rear grip; not the way to do it. You can get more front grip, and much better turn in, with more front camber, and larger front tires.

[beem3]

When I went to a staggered setup, I definately felt more understeer. I had to turn the steering wheel more to take the same turn as when I had my car neutral. I went from stock 16x7 to 17x7.5 fr and 17x8.5 rear. When I made the switch, the only suspension mod I had was an x-brace. However when I put sway bars on, I did not notice the understeer. Even taking hard turns around the streets as Daved mentioned, you will feel the understeer assuming you don't have any suspension mods. The understeer is minimal. I still like staggered setup because of the look. It depends on your reasons for switching to staggered. I did it for the looks and extra grip. Even on the track and autocross, I'm happy with the staggered setup because I'm not competing, just having fun. Hope this helps.

[The HACK]

When I went to a staggered setup, I definately felt more understeer. I had to turn the steering wheel more to take the same turn as when I had my car neutral. I went from stock 16x7 to 17x7.5 fr and 17x8.5 rear. When I made the switch, the only suspension mod I had was an x-brace. However when I put sway bars on, I did not notice the understeer. Even taking hard turns around the streets as Daved mentioned, you will feel the understeer assuming you don't have any suspension mods. The understeer is minimal. I still like staggered setup because of the look. It depends on your reasons for switching to staggered. I did it for the looks and extra grip. Even on the track and autocross, I'm happy with the staggered setup because I'm not competing, just having fun. Hope this helps.

:confused

Understeer and oversteer doesn't mean you have to steer more or less to make a turn. Understeer means your front tires give up grip first, oversteer means your rear tires give up grip first. It wouldn't make it so that you'll have to turn your steering wheel more to make the same turn.

[jaross]

:confused

Understeer and oversteer doesn't mean you have to steer more or less to make a turn. Understeer means your front tires give up grip first, oversteer means your rear tires give up grip first. It wouldn't make it so that you'll have to turn your steering wheel more to make the same turn.

I dont know man, that makes sense to me. if the front tires are not gripping to their full potential then you probably have to turn the steering wheel more. In a turn, its impossible that all 4 tires are gripping the road %100 - atleast it would seem. correct me if im wrong...

[black_box]

horse shit...I can rotate my car fine with stagger set-up by stiff'n up my rear end...People always say go un-stagger it's better...to me its not...you're be able to rotate more cuz the rear is slipping...if you put more tires in the rear (staggered) it will stop reduce slipping/rotate right? if you're reduce your car's ability to grip, isn't that reducing the ability of your car's handle at it's limit?
stiffening up the rear is reducing the grip at the rear. effectively the same as running a narrower tire in back (in terms of cornering speed).

Now my justification..if you want un-staggered setup...wouldn't be better to run wider front (same as the rear's original size 245/245 wide) to make it rotate? cuz you have more grip in the front same grip on the back will cause the car to rotate/oversteer more right? Ok I can understand that...

Yes. I'm running 245/245 (both on 8.5" wheels) and also increased negative camber up front, the car handles much better.

Now what I don't understand is, people go un-staggered...by reducing the rear at the same time widen the front example 235/235 wide...now your car will rotate/oversteer more right? ok this is true...but the reason that it's oversteered isn't because the rear ability to grip is reduced? by going 235 from 245 wide? now wouldn't that reduced it's ability to handle at is limit?
you be the judge.
I needed a spacer to fit 245's up front. 235 front/rear will fit without modifications and tires are a little cheaper.

The E36 M3 in stock form (225/245) understeers. 235 up front can reduce the understeer, 235 in rear can then further reduce understeer (same thing as increasing oversteer). While the rear end may have less grip, the car can still be faster overall because of how the grip is distributed when the car is cornering (look up "weight transfer"). In general, you want to get on the gas to help the car rotate through the turn. This way you're accelerating through the turn and going faster when you leave the turn (look up "late apex" and "corner exit speed").

That said, in stock form with my shocks at 60k, getting on the gas in a turn meant the front end would push. There was no throttle-on oversteer unless I gave it so much gas that the tires broke loose. At that point, its not really a controlled slide (or at least i'm not that good yet).

I dont know man, that makes sense to me. if the front tires are not gripping to their full potential then you probably have to turn the steering wheel more. In a turn, its impossible that all 4 tires are gripping the road %100 - atleast it would seem. correct me if im wrong...
100% on all four tires is difficult, and probably not always possible, but that is the goal. Theres too many variables to list though.

What The HACK was saying is that understeer and oversteer are relative terms. Understeer is when there is less grip in front relative to the rear, and vice versa for oversteer.

Does more understeer mean you have to turn the wheel more? no. 2 ways to get more understeer: 1) reduce grip at the front and 2) increase grip in the back. Assuming you're cornering at a constant speed, if you reduce grip at the front, you just have to slow down to make it through the turn. More grip at the rear, you can take it the same way as before.

BTW, if your car is truly understeering, turning the wheel further into the turn will actually reduce your cornering capability. At some point, you'll have turned the steering wheel so far that the front tires are no longer rolling on the ground, they're skipping. You should be able to feel the vibration when this happens. You need to reduce the amount of steering (might seem counter-intuitive, but true), or transfer weight to the front tires by reducing the throttle or maybe applying the brake. Or, some combination of those. This will take practice so you don't just hit the brakes and go into snap oversteer.

[cooljess76]

horse shit...I can rotate my car fine with stagger set-up by stiff'n up my rear end...People always say go un-stagger it's better...to me its not...you're be able to rotate more cuz the rear is slipping...if you put more tires in the rear (staggered) it will stop reduce slipping/rotate right? if you're reduce your car's ability to grip, isn't that reducing the ability of your car's handle at it's limit?

Now my justification..if you want un-staggered setup...wouldn't be better to run wider front (same as the rear's original size 245/245 wide) to make it rotate? cuz you have more grip in the front same grip on the back will cause the car to rotate/oversteer more right? Ok I can understand that...

Now what I don't understand is, people go un-staggered...by reducing the rear at the same time widen the front example 235/235 wide...now your car will rotate/oversteer more right? ok this is true...but the reason that it's oversteered isn't because the rear ability to grip is reduced? by going 235 from 245 wide? now wouldn't that reduced it's ability to handle at is limit?

you be the judge.


No explanation neccesary, You're an idiot. The End

Lol, maybe an explanation is needed. Rotating your tires means taking them off of the car and switching their location to increase the life of your tires. Not spinning them as implied by "asianvenom". If you go with a staggered setup, it will cost you about $80 everytime you want to have it done because you will have to remove the tire from the rim and have it remounted and balanced facing the other direction. Also, you're limited to switching the rears with the rears and the fronts with the fronts. Regardless of how slight, you're still sacraficing handling for looks. If your car is lowered, more than likely the negative camber is high which will cause excessive inner tire wear on the rear tires. Sure you could correct the camber to even it out, but then you run into the issue of tires rubbing on the fenders. So then you roll your fenders only to find out that your rear tires are too wide and rub anyway. My car is lowered and I rotate my tires with every oil change. I run 17x8 et20 Style 42's off of an e39 with 215/40/17 Michelin Pilots. At $170 a pop, I'll try to stretch the tire life as far as possible. Staggered wheels are strictly cosmetic and the only benefit of traction during takeoff is offset by the PITA of rotaing, poor handling, tire wear and clearance issues. While the wheels might look cooler staggered, the driver will look like an idiot. Take lots of pictures, because that's all your car will be good for.