Turbo or NA

[turb02]

I have been kicking around the idea of turbo'ing my 02 but have run into issues. I really want to do it and do it right the first time but cant seem to let go of that much money. I wanted the engine to be built professionally by one of the big names (Metric Mechanic, TEP) but in order to get the engine built by them they are wanting big $$$$$ for a turbo build and all associated parts. TEP quoted me 13K for everything from intake to turbo including electromotive EMS. That is way more than I am willing to spend on just the motor. So... I have been kicking around just doing a NA build and sacrafice the power for $$$ savings. What is the best way to achieve the most HP out of the M10 motor keeping it NA?

Thanks in advance!

[tommozza]

Maybe think about an m20 conversion? Or even an s14 conversion?

Best way to get higher numbers out of an m10 - build a stroker m10. Alternativly, high compression with ITB's or twin carbs and a 292 or 304 degree cam from Schrick.

[Beaner7102]

Maybe think about an m20 conversion? Or even an s14 conversion?
Best way to get higher numbers out of an m10 - build a stroker m10. Alternativly, high compression with ITB's or twin carbs and a 292 or 304 degree cam from Schrick.

With the S14 or the Stroker you are into high $$$ input for the high BHP output. I old equation is (If money=speed, How fast do you want to go?). Will a Korman 300° cam (approx $200 - Schrick 304° approx $500) with twin sidedraft webers satisfy your need for speed? But remember you want a stock cam and lowish compression for a Turbo motor. How about putting the EFI from an E30 on it (e30 head - 02 block) it will be very strong and as reliable as hell too. Plus its ready for the turbo when the $$$ come along. TMHO Beaner7102.

[turb02]

I am already planning on doing an efi swap and am looking into a 18I head. From doing this is 220 whp attainable ( with other mods of course)? If so what would I need to do piston and cam wise? Stroke it with an S14 crank, high comp (how high and what type of pistons), dual valve springs, +1 SS valves, Header?

I dont want to do another swap. I did the swap myself in the 332is, although it was fun and I really enjoyed that much power, I want to keep the engine that is specific to the 2002. Besides, finding a S14 that is complete to the ecu and in great enough shape to just drop it in would put me in the same boat as the cost of a professionally built motor from TEP or MM.

Thanks again.

[turb02]

Anyone else?

[cheechthechi]

Some the better build n/a m10s top out at like 180hp, with non streetable m10s hitting 200ish or so I have heard. If you are looking for 200 + whp you should definitely look into turbocharging or supercharging with alot of n/a mods. Obviously the former will be cheaper than the latter. I know you don't really want to swap in an engine, but consider the m20. You can find them for realitively cheap and attain you hp goals with very little n/a mods.

good luck

[turb02]

What would have to be done to the motor mounts? Would the tranny tunnel need to be chopped up to fit the bigger tranny?

[BradRevelli]

I have a currently have a very early 1600 w/Turbo and 2002 Racecar with 45's 304 schrick, headers, lightened flywheel etc. Both engines have been professionally built. I would sell either car or engine at a fraction of the price of the rebuilt you were quoted. Send me an email to Brad_Revelli@yahoo.com

[turb02]

So... is there anyone out there that has done a built M10 that comes close to the 200 whp mark? If so what are your mods?

[kpolito99]

I have exceeded 200 and am approaching 300 RWHP! Check out the link on my sig/avatar to read about the list of mods.

I have made some recent changes that significantly increased my specific fuel consumption and have temporarily stopped tweaking because I have run out of fuel injector. My 500 cc/min injectors are hitting 100% duty cycle before reaching 18psi. I would guess that based on how the car is pulling and how easily the tires are spinning that I have surpassed the 270 RWHP/TQ values recorded using the smaller turbine housing.

[turb02]

Right. I dont have that kind of money to throw at a turbo project as I have a boy on the way. Looking more towards 200 rwhp out of an N/A streetable motor.

[jcfoster22]

hey ok so im new to this whole forum thing and im not really sure how to work all this out yet, but i was wondering if any1 knew any sites that i could go to to find out information on the demographics, sales, and marketing of BMWs...i just have a few questions about stats and stuff...so if any1 can help me out id really appreciate it...thanks

[Le Nitro]

so u can attain 200hp out of a m10 and its not streetable meaning? Ill get 10mpg? but im sure itll sound mean as hell for a 4 banger and especially w/ a straight pipe...omg i cant wait to get mine on the road, i dont gotta pass emissions so im jus gonna have 1 loud ass str8 pipe hehe...if that gets annoying maybe an ansa muffler.

[SOUTHBAYeric]

Right. I dont have that kind of money to throw at a turbo project as I have a boy on the way. Looking more towards 200 rwhp out of an N/A streetable motor.

That will not happen. If that does happen it will not be streetable and will not idle at a normal RPM. You will also spend more on that than you would on a turbo kit putting out the same amount of power. With your situation it looks like you should build an engine with 9.5:1 compression, 292 or 300 cam, dual carbs and headwork with a nice exhaust. But it all comes down to; speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?

[Le Nitro]

whats the purpose of that pic^^^?

[turb02]

jcfoster22- try not to hijack threads. thats a start. Do a search for what you want to know.

I would really like to keep the price of the motor around 3000-3500. What can I get (performance wise) for that price?

Thanks again.

[turb02]

whats the purpose of that pic^^^?

Thanks for the free bump but...OT.

[my2002tii]

Right. I dont have that kind of money to throw at a turbo project as I have a boy on the way. Looking more towards 200 rwhp out of an N/A streetable motor.

If you do a search in this forum for many long winding threads on the subject, you'll find we go through this idea about 4-5 times a month some times.

I want to help, but I struggle with in your line of questions, so I have some of my own

1) Where did you decide your 'target' goal of 200 rwhp as what you need ??
2) None of us know what your budget to get that 200 rwhp is so need a $$ number ??
2) Assuming your price/performance is reached, what did your plan to do with it (0-100mph runs ?? drag racing ??)
3) Have you considered other BMWs which are easier to get 200 rwhp from on price/performance ratio ??

Not to throw a wet blanket on this idea, but we've seen this happen before. The names of those people and those cars don't show up here in this forum on the owners list so they are not here to tell you how bad things went.

If you loose interest in the project, such a car, or the incomplete attempt on a car will probably be like setting fire to cash in your gas grill. It may only bring cash to you on some of only some of the more desirable parts to get out of it.

Selling it even to another 02 enthusiast would probably drastically limit the people willing to take such a beast on and keep it going.

2002s are a great car but they were designed in a time when any car could go fast in a straight line with enough horsepower. These cars were and are about balance... power, driving and handling that work in concert together. When 2002s roamed the streets everyday, they were the 'anti' car to just about everything else. It's probably what makes them a cult car 40 years later. In terms of power they have design limits in terms of how much horsepower and torque you can put into them before you find that limit. Some people here can speak to that limit because they either snuck up on it or blew past it.

The right balance of power and handling can be improved in the car you have, but once you cross over that... well.. you find yout you could have spent less money on a Ford or Chevy to do the same thing and gone twice as fast, so what does it prove?

If the voice of some of those long gone were here, my bet is that they would be telling you - 'just because you can, doesn't mean you should'. :cool


Before you jump with your checkbook, do a lot of research. In the long run you may be glad you did.

[74tii]

not to pile on but like my2002tii says I can't think of many times when I wish I had 200 hp in my 74tii. It flows through corners and accelerates like a banchie to from 50 to 90 (like passing a truck or something). It can take corners faster than any other car I've ever driven and I live in a very twisty part of the world so it fits my driving style perfectly.

Not to say I wouldn't LOVE dropping an s14 into on of my other 2002s and find out how much more fun higher HP would be, but I can't see how spending the kind of dosh to hit 200 hp would make the car that much better. With these light cars the tii range (what 120-130 HP) is plenty. I think if you could get in that range.. maybe 140 hp you'd be plenty happy (i would)

I guess if i was filthy rich i might do a 200 hp it just to see what would happen but ...

[turb02]

My2002tii- thank you for the insight. I guess my goal is to get the same thrill that I had everytime I got behind the wheel of my 332is: great power and equal handling. I know that the 02 weighs quite a bit less than the E36 and yes I am new to the 02 scene (owned it for a little over a year), so what can be done to get that thrill and what HP range and suspension setup would you recommend?

I like to go fast like most of us on the board and I want to get into tracking the car. On another note I would like it to be a street sleeper as well as a performance minded track car. Make sense?

Since I hardly drive the car as I am wanting to get it where I want it to be (all around performance wise), it is sitting impatiently in my garage awaiting the work to be done.

With that said, and a budget set to 7K for the car (I will be doing the paint and mechanic work myself to save $$$) and since I am not sure what this car will be able to offer me performance wise, what would you recommend be done to the drivetrain and suspension without throwing the idea of swapping the motor?

I want the car to be daily driveable (not to say that I would drive it daily) and have put a excel spreadsheet together of every thing that I would need for a complete engine rebuild with off the shelf parts from either TEP or Ireland including suspension, brakes and 5 spd swap. I can send it to anyone upon request and you can make changes where you think they need to be and send it back so I get a better look at things.

Again thank you all for the info and opening my eyes to see that my 200 hp goal is a little far fetched.

Any responses are welcome and appreciated!

[my2002tii]

Most people have never seen what a good, dialed in car with solid suspension replacement/upgrades and some basic engine mods runs.

I just picked up a malaga '72 2002 that looks for all the world like a rat rod. Surface rust, peeling paint, original Cali car. It has a pretty tired engine with who knows how many miles with the stock cam, stock exhaust, crunchy 4 speed and bad valve seals.

It has a modified 'peanut" manifold which is a ported stock BMW 2002 smog style intake with the two holes for the Solex 2 barrel hogged out to wide open - like a figure 8 or peanut shape to flow better and a 38/38 down draft weber.

Stock exhaust manifold and muffler. It runs better than any 2002 I have owned in the past except my Tii but on it, everything is new. The secret is the carb setup. It's amazing how well the stock engine responds to breathing improvements. It will throw you back in the seat when you hit 4,000 rpm and just keep on going. If it had more compression and a mild cam, watch out.

If I was in your shoes....

If it had not been done yet, invest money in getting what's under the car correct first. The baseline to everything you want done in the future!

Spend at least 1/2 the money on that. Shocks, springs, bushings, sway bars, and LSD rear end from an E21. 15" tires and wheels, 195/50/15s.

Do a basic rebuild on the engine with good components it will work great on the street with some occasional track time. The stock engine was designed to be driven at 6,000 RPM for hours on end - read your owners manual, it's for a spec that is for real.

Have the E12 head rebuilt and make sure and replace the valve guides and seals with the later E30 M10 parts.

Have somebody port your stock intake manifold out and put a 38/38 weber on it. Tii manifold or one of Tom Rafalski's mild steel Tii type headers. New clutch and pressure plate. Free flowing exhaust setup also. Try a mild cam, like 292 and for starters. Do a good engine break in, and at 6,000 miles switch to 15W50 Mobil 1.

You would be amazed at what the above would do to your car. You have an upgraded 2002 better that runs with a Tii. And if you want more horsepower down the road, sell the 38/38 and put on a cannon manifold and a set of DCOE 40s or Mikunis. You will get even more smiles to the mile.

Seriously... Sneak up on what you want. Don't just read the board here and assume we all have it figured out.

If you are in St Louis, solicit a few local owners. See who would be happy to show you/give you a ride. I'm about 4 hours west of you, come over to KC and visit sometime if you get near the area. We would be happy to show you whats possible with what I have around.

[turb02]

Most people have never seen what a good, dialed in car with solid suspension replacement/upgrades and some basic engine mods runs.

I just picked up a malaga '72 2002 that looks for all the world like a rat rod. Surface rust, peeling paint, original Cali car. It has a pretty tired engine with who knows how many miles with the stock cam, stock exhaust, crunchy 4 speed and bad valve seals.

It has a modified 'peanut" manifold which is a ported stock BMW 2002 smog style intake with the two holes for the Solex 2 barrel hogged out to wide open - like a figure 8 or peanut shape to flow better and a 38/38 down draft weber.

Stock exhaust manifold and muffler. It runs better than any 2002 I have owned in the past except my Tii but on it, everything is new. The secret is the carb setup. It's amazing how well the stock engine responds to breathing improvements. It will throw you back in the seat when you hit 4,000 rpm and just keep on going. If it had more compression and a mild cam, watch out.

If I was in your shoes....

If it had not been done yet, invest money in getting what's under the car correct first. The baseline to everything you want done in the future!

Spend at least 1/2 the money on that. Shocks, springs, bushings, sway bars, and LSD rear end from an E21. 15" tires and wheels, 195/50/15s.

Do a basic rebuild on the engine with good components it will work great on the street with some occasional track time. The stock engine was designed to be driven at 6,000 RPM for hours on end - read your owners manual, it's for a spec that is for real.

Have the E12 head rebuilt and make sure and replace the valve guides and seals with the later E30 M10 parts.

Have somebody port your stock intake manifold out and put a 38/38 weber on it. Tii manifold or one of Tom Rafalski's mild steel Tii type headers. New clutch and pressure plate. Free flowing exhaust setup also. Try a mild cam, like 292 and for starters. Do a good engine break in, and at 6,000 miles switch to 15W50 Mobil 1.

You would be amazed at what the above would do to your car. You have an upgraded 2002 better that runs with a Tii. And if you want more horsepower down the road, sell the 38/38 and put on a cannon manifold and a set of DCOE 40s or Mikunis. You will get even more smiles to the mile.

Seriously... Sneak up on what you want. Don't just read the board here and assume we all have it figured out.

If you are in St Louis, solicit a few local owners. See who would be happy to show you/give you a ride. I'm about 4 hours west of you, come over to KC and visit sometime if you get near the area. We would be happy to show you whats possible with what I have around.

I have gotten on the stlbmwcca board and kicked around questions and am trying to meet up with someone that has another 02 as I type this.

I have looked at the DCOE 40's and would like to know more about the difference in performance and tunability from the DCOE's and fuel injection, if anyone can give me some insight. The car has a 32/36 on it and the valve seals are shot on the exhaust side of #4.

My first steps are to get teh body where I want it first. Hopefully get it media blasted by a friend of mine, then get the rust fixed. There is surface rust on the front driverside shock tower and rot on the passanger floorboard along with some between the trunk floor and passanger rear quarter. After that the I will go to suspension and brakes, then drivetrain and finally the engine.

I dont just read the board and assume, I ask the questions that I would like answered to get a better feel for what I am getting into and then once I have what I need, I start getting everything lined up for the start of the project.

Here are a few shots of when I first got the car. Sorry about the quality (old camera).

[turb02]

I have more pics if you would like them. Also I can send my gathered parts list to you to see if I am missing or buying something I might not need.

[my2002tii]

Looks like a good plan you have laid out. The body looks pretty nice in these shots.

Some good engine bay shots - which proves all of the smog gear still attached to that engine, and the thermal reactor (that line of the front of you exhaust manifold can be seen) The 75 model year USA car when stock was probably the worst with all that stuff robbing the performance.

[Le Nitro]

looking at what kind of 02's people buoght the 1 i bought from a member of this forum...i got so freakin ripped off and i feel like a jackass for buying mine, i coulda gotten 1 in so much better condition then the 1 i bought...im a sucker and i hate it.

[good & tight]

I have more pics if you would like them. Also I can send my gathered parts list to you to see if I am missing or buying something I might not need.
Car looks familiar, when did you buy the car and did you buy it from a chic?

[turb02]

Nope bought it from the original owner (older guy) in Belleville Illinois. Have every maintenance record and almost every oil change reciept even the original window sticker.

[drtyryder]

turbo

[bigdog68]

Great looking interior, I wish my seats looked that nice, definatly stay away from turbo, the 2002 really is about balance and poise on the road, when every other car had 350+ HP the 2002 was running around them and smiling all the way. My Dad used to have a 3.0CSi and always laughed at friends with big muscle because they couldnt corner at all. On my 2002 the first thing I did was put E30 15 inch rims and tires on it, I am now working on the suspension with my cousin (who is a BMW tech) and then were going to get some more power in the car. There definatly drivers cars and should always be.

[Pinepig]

It would still be a drivers car with a shitload of horse power, it would just take a bit more driver.:stickoutt