Which swap is best for the money? LS1, S52, something Jap???

[Righteous]

I am either going to buy a Civic just as a race car or put another engine in my 328i in about a year or so. So I am wondering the price difference to do an LS1 compared to the S52. I assume the LS1 is less expensive because it is domestic and their are a lot of them around, but it might cost more to do the swap on an LS1 compared to the S52...

Or do I just get a Civic and have two cars, one 328i for a daily and a Civic for street racing/SCCA events.

[goobos101]

Cant lose with the LS1 or LS2 swap 300-350hp 200lbs lighter than the S52 and more reliable and room to grow. The LS1 is easier and cheaper to mod. I was so close to doing this to my 99 ///m3 and still am if I could sell my S52 that I just had the head redone with new vales, cams...ect with less than 3,000 miles on it and the transmission. You can get a LS1 w/ 6 speed trans for $3000-4000 range...LS2 $5000. I contacted Hinson Super Cars and they quoted around $11,000 total for the work and the Engine/transmision included. There are kits you can buy if you are willing to put it together. Google for "Nash" he built a 318 ti with an LS1...great guy. He also can sell you custom parts.

[Fair]

I am either going to buy a Civic just as a race car or put another engine in my 328i in about a year or so. So I am wondering the price difference to do an LS1 compared to the S52. I assume the LS1 is less expensive because it is domestic and their are a lot of them around, but it might cost more to do the swap on an LS1 compared to the S52...

Or do I just get a Civic and have two cars, one 328i for a daily and a Civic for street racing/SCCA events.
S52 E36 swap? I have always warned people to not fall in love with a particular car, such as your 328i, and try to do an engine swap that would only duplicate a factory available chassis... like an S52 E36. That's called a '96-99 M3. :confused

Look around, you'll notice that these cars have plummeted in value in the last 3 years. I just saw a '99 M3 2-door with 5-spd and 109K miles for $10,000 last week. That is a LOT of car for the money. Clean examples are $13-16K, they run high-13s in stock form and can be made a little more powerful for a bit of work (cold air, larger MAF, exhaust, header, cams, tuning). 250-265 whp, NA, on pump fuel, is fairly repeatable. Not the least expensive way to make that power level, but easy, reliable, and easy on the eyes. :)

So, if you want an S52 E36 save yourself a LOT of hassles and a LOT of money and just sell your car to buy an M3. You get so much more for that exchange than your would out of an S52 swap, such as bigger/better brakes, wheels, interior, exterior, suspension, gearing and Limited Slip, etc. You can race an E36 M3 with a nice list of allowable mods in SCCA's STU Class, and 3 of the top 5 at the 2007 Nationals were M3s. If you want detailed tips on the suspension set-up, wheels/tires, and power mods on the 2nd place M3, drop us a PM. :)

Civic The Honda Civic is a phenomenon that has started to outgrow the hype from 4-5 years ago, but they are still soild autocross performers. Maybe not the best drag racing chassis/layout... in fact I could hardly think of a worse platform to use for a drag racing chassis / "street racing". Front Wheel Drive (Wrong Wheel Drive) unloads during launch, itsy bitsy motors need lots of power adders to even make 400 hp (...yawn...), and there no room for much more than the stock selection of 1.6-2.0 liters. So, for straight line racing, I'd look anywhere but here.

Autocrossing is another story - these (and the CRX) have always done well in the cones, due to their extremely light weight, low cost, and sophisticated double wishbone suspensions (until they went strut and got heavy in later years). You can build a Nationally competitive SCCA STS Class Civic for $6K or so, including the price of the car! That's a lot of good racing for the money. Power should be essentially ignored, with the focus instead on weight and grip. These also do well in some of the slower SP classes, or did in the past. I honestly don't pay much attention to the Hondas, and would never own one simply out of my hatred of all things FWD. :D

E36 with an LS1 Swap: Well, you may have read our reasoning for choosing the E36 and LS1 package (http://www.vorshlag.com/ls1bmw1.php), twice now. Those early LS1 installation pictures taken 4 years ago have inspired others to do this swap - and honestly, its just an obvious motor and chassis to marry together. Great handling, low weight, plenty of room for a big motor (since the inline-six was already externally huge), and the LS1 is just a marvel of engineering, weight, packaging, and horsepower.

The swap is more than the cost of the engine ($2000 used) and transmission ($1000 used), with an extensive list of parts needed to mate this drivetrain into this chassis. The kit cost will be in the low $1000's for the headers, mounts, trans crossmember, and other assorted bits to allow this mostly bolt-in conversion. The best part is that weight balance is not negatively affected (it improves actually) and weight is not increased with the drivetrain, as well. Power potential can start at stock LS1/2 levels (350-400hp) and go up to OH WOW! levels (500-700+) on the motor. We're having a 650 hp 7.0L built that is based on duplicated engines by the same builder. "Fill it with 93 octane, turn the key, and buzz it around 7500 rpm" kind of motor.

Can you fathom a Civic with 650 hp on pump gas? An S52? This set-up is in a completely different league...

[rao]

^^^^^^ +1, except that the LS1 swap will be anything but cheap.

[DILYSI Dave]

I'm a big fan of having a different street car and racecar. A dual purpose car is great at neither. If it means that the racer is a Civic, so be it. I'd rather race an optimized civic than a compromised bimmer.

[Fair]

I'm a big fan of having a different street car and racecar. A dual purpose car is great at neither. If it means that the racer is a Civic, so be it. I'd rather race an optimized civic than a compromised bimmer.
This is true - keep one car the hard core racer, and let the daily driver be a little more sane.

[VNG704]

except!!! that the civic doesn't need 650 hp to keep up with a 650 hp e36

[scabzzzz]

+1 on that last comment and also, you gotta look at the basics such as what you want out of it, how much money you have (the most important) and where you're going to run it and in what fashion are you going to run it.
If you have plenty of money to throw around, you can do anything you want. Refer back to what you want out of it for the next step.

And i dont agree with the "dont swap an ///M motor into an e36 just buy the ///M"... unfortunately all the club racing and scca races i've encountered were the opposite. The swapped cars outrun because its stupid to run an m3 when you can take an s52 and put it in a 318 that weighs several hundred less and plus not to mention m3 parts are not cheap and are much limited in quantity. Keep the m3's together and strip the 318's.
I agree with everything said though. All the cars we've built at Treehouse Racing were M-powered but not in an M chassis and they usually end of beating the e46m3's and e36m3's. I know a lot is driving skill and a drivers game but the car plays a large role. Theres my .02's.
+123123123 for LSx swapped bimmers!!!!!

[that guy]

hemi + 3 series = heM3??

[Fair]

except!!! that the civic doesn't need 650 hp to keep up with a 650 hp e36
Well, it depends on what you define as "keep up". In an autocross, weight trumps power. On a road course, not so much. At a drag strip, power is still king. Most Civics should be significantly lighter than an E36 car.

As for M motors in non-M cars... where's the magic? Why are non-Ms so much lighter, especially when you gut and prep them for track use? I don't get it. If you can take advantage of some rules loophole by doing an S52 motor into a non-M E36, then go for it, but the chassis is virtually the same. The weight difference between the M3 and 325/328 is in interior and other cosmetic bits. The floorpans are the same thickness, the doors weigh the same, the dash weighs the same, the glass weighs the same. Lots of other parts are the same between all 6-cyl E36 models, such as radiator, transmission, etc. Some additional weight in larger brakes and such, but don't bigger brakes belong in a race car?

Again, where's the weight difference?

If you are building a gutted track car, then sure, don't cut up an M3 unless your class rules force you to pick that model. If you can hack up a $1500 318 and swap in all manner of goodies from any E36, then go that route if it makes sense. But for a nice street car, its hard to ignore the advantages of a factory M3 over the non-M. I've owned and driven both, and in stock or near stock form there's enough difference in performance to choose the M3. I damn sure wouldn't take a street driven 328 and swap in an M3 drivetrain trying to 1) "save money" [time = money to most folks] or 2) to somehow get a magically lighter car. ;)

We've documented the massive amount of weight that's hidden in all E36 chassis by weighing the 375 lbs of interior crap (http://www.vorshlag.com/xp3.php) from a 325is we're building into a race car. There's even more in the sunroof and sheetmetal that will be swapped for aluminum and CF. You can make a light E36 if you are serious about it.

To each his own, of course! :)

[erikerikerik]

lets see, CF parts they make for the E36
trunk
roof
doors (coupe only)
hood
front and rear fenders
bumpers
dash



heck, if you really really want to top out your car, you can get an areo plate made up by the boys over in www.ba-automotive.co.uk <- :evil2

[JoeZ]

If you go with an LS series motor, you should do it for the potential of the motor rather than how inexpensive some make the swap sound.

[sprbxr]

ets see, CF parts they make for the E36
trunk
roof
doors (coupe only)
hood
front and rear fenders
bumpers
dash


Where can I get the roof, fenders and hood for a Sedan?

[spare]

Wow some really good info in this thread :)

[EducatedFool]

I think you should go for a 2nd car. Although, not a civic. E30 :D

[///Ficarra]

screw the LS1. Build yourself a SBC(small block chevy. the LS1 is a small block, but not quite the motor that built the legend), or get a local shop to do it for you. way cheaper and way more power with the right parts (dome pistons and good heads, alum. roller rockers and a big ass cam.)

I grew up on SBC's, so for me LS1<Custom SBC

[Fair]

screw the LS1. Build yourself a SBC(small block chevy. the LS1 is a small block, but not quite the motor that built the legend), or get a local shop to do it for you. way cheaper and way more power with the right parts (dome pistons and good heads, alum. roller rockers and a big ass cam.)

I grew up on SBC's, so for me LS1<Custom SBC
Uhh... the LS1 offers way more potential than the traditional SBC. The LS1/2/3/7 aluminum block is not only significantly lighter (70 pounds) but stronger and capable of more cubic inches, with the LS7 block capable of 454" displacement. The latest iron GM "LSX" block is capable of 480" (standard deck) to 500" (tall deck) and built to withstand 2500 hp. Twenty five HUNDRED. More (http://www.ls1tech.com/misc/LSXblock.jpg) and even more (http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0702gm_lsx_engine_block/).

http://gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0702gm_03_z+lsx+.jpg

Not to mention the LS1 series head blows the hell out of any SBC heads this side of a $5000 set of NASCAR heads, and even those cannot match the low speed velocity of the LS heads. As for cost, the gap is narrowing. If you ask machine shops who specialize in LS1 based motors for a quote on a big inch LS quote vs similar size SBC quote, I think you will be amazed. Then ask for the SBC to be an aluminum block and its all over.

Again, a big part of the allure of the LS1 in the E36 is the lack of additional weight the LS motor has over the BMW 6. A lot of us grew up on the SBC, and they are going to be the measuring stick for years to come... but the SBC also grew up and became the LS1. :D 45 years of SBC development went into the LS1 design - Ron Sperry and the team at GM took the best parts of the SBC (and a good bit of the SBF architecture), added in the latest in cylinder head and block technology (6 bolt mains, deep skirt block, radical valve angles), then mixed in the latest high tech materials (nylon intake, reusable and leak-free gaskets), and came up with this unstoppable v8.

Aftermarket development on the SBC has stopped (except in certain racing orgs like NASCAR, the technology showcase of the 1960s) and moved to the LS1.

[///Ficarra]

why is it then, that at all the racetracks around here, people use aluminum SBC's that they built themselve? because they cannot affor an LSx? no, the motors i speak of cost $30k +

I did not say that the LSx series was bad, but lets be honest, is he really gonna put that motor to full use. he could save a lot of money having a SBC custom built for him, and i promise you he will never push it past its limits. to make the same power with an LSx he would need a lot more money, and even you cannot deny that. That is what makes SBC's so ghreat in the first place- they are cheap as hell to buily, easy and cheap to work on, and everyone makes aftermarket parts.

[vinax]

why is it then, that at all the racetracks around here, people use aluminum SBC's that they built themselve? because they cannot affor an LSx? no, the motors i speak of cost $30k +

I did not say that the LSx series was bad, but lets be honest, is he really gonna put that motor to full use. he could save a lot of money having a SBC custom built for him, and i promise you he will never push it past its limits. to make the same power with an LSx he would need a lot more money, and even you cannot deny that. That is what makes SBC's so ghreat in the first place- they are cheap as hell to buily, easy and cheap to work on, and everyone makes aftermarket parts.

I think SBC and LSx words need to be swapped in your entire message. ;)

A stock LS2 pulled + heads + intake + cams will give 600hp easy with minimal fuss for around $6000. No work anywhere! Will be reliable as hell. Factory motor reliability, build quality (yes!) and "aftermarket"-type horsepower combination is unbeatable.

Even the cams are easy to install - try and say that for a BMW motor.

[scabzzzz]

:eatpop:

[rao]

I'm completely lost on the SBC comments :eyecrazy

The engine management of the stock LSx series motors is something you could not even come close to with a Gen 1 small block.

The proven power capabilities of the Gen 3/4 motors is also clear.


However, if you like SBC's (which could never be emissions legal in an e36) then go for it :) I will stick with my stroker LS2 ;)

[dynamowhum]

LS2 will be the best bang for the buck. LS3 will be too new too costly. LS1 will be cheapest but the early years they had some issues. I think they got cleared up with the LS6 updates. The LS1 also is around 80 less hp stock compared to the LS2.
I too grew up with the SBC and while I had my fun with it, the king is dead long live the king. And that king is LSX. Whether it be power to weight ratio or cost to build or smog legal, the SBC loses in all catagories. Enough said.

[BigM62]

:eatpop:
+1

[///Ficarra]

I think SBC and LSx words need to be swapped in your entire message. ;)

A stock LS2 pulled + heads + intake + cams will give 600hp easy with minimal fuss for around $6000. No work anywhere! Will be reliable as hell. Factory motor reliability, build quality (yes!) and "aftermarket"-type horsepower combination is unbeatable.

Even the cams are easy to install - try and say that for a BMW motor.

yeah, because i know lots of people that use LSx motors in their race cars. haha. why are we arguing? the point is: he does not have $6k or more to spend on an LSx motor, so therefore, a SBC from a local shop would be more in his ballpark and just as good.you are acting as though i said that he would be better off with for or something. why is it that everyone here needs to argue to justify their points? i am not saying anything bad about the LSx motors, BMW motors, or any motor. Both have had amazing accomplishments in motorsports.


and yes, the cams are easy to install, i did my first cam install when i was 15. by myself, with no experience. again, why are we arguing over which is a better chevy motor?

[///Ficarra]

I'm completely lost on the SBC comments :eyecrazy

The engine management of the stock LSx series motors is something you could not even come close to with a Gen 1 small block.

The proven power capabilities of the Gen 3/4 motors is also clear.


However, if you like SBC's (which could never be emissions legal in an e36) then go for it :) I will stick with my stroker LS2 ;)


Um, the point was that not everyone has that kind of cash. If you would re-read my post, you would realize that i meant that the SBC's were cheap to build and stil have enough power for an E36. Never said that they were better than the LSx's.

Call me a fanboy, but I would rather build a SBC with a holley doublr-pumper than buy any LSx, and that's not because of power output.

[Fair]

Um, the point was that not everyone has that kind of cash. If you would re-read my post, you would realize that i meant that the SBC's were cheap to build and stil have enough power for an E36. Never said that they were better than the LSx's.

Call me a fanboy, but I would rather build a SBC with a holley doublr-pumper than buy any LSx, and that's not because of power output.
YEEEE HAW! Lets get us some holley "doublr-pumpers" up in here! :D

Doing a quality, powerful, reliable, lightweight, emissions legal, drive-it-in-any-condition (EFI) V8 swap into a BMW isn't about finding the cheapest motor you can conceive of. Hell, they even use LS1 motors in ASA stock car racing. You bet your ass they'd use them in NASCAR if it weren't limited to 50 year old engine designs. Toyota had to "design" a special cam-in-block V8 to be eligible for that series. :rolleyes

Fanboy, run on over to the pick-a-part and get that $99 305cid V8, slide in that 3/4 race cam, some double-hump factory heads, dial in that HEI and MSD, slap on some Hookers tied into some Cherrybombs, and get er dun!!. :buttrock Then slap on that Number 3 sticker in the back window...

OK, last post on the old skool SBC-vs-LS1 debate for me... let's quit picking on Ficarra now. :)

[rao]

Um, the point was that not everyone has that kind of cash. If you would re-read my post, you would realize that i meant that the SBC's were cheap to build and stil have enough power for an E36. Never said that they were better than the LSx's.

Call me a fanboy, but I would rather build a SBC with a holley doublr-pumper than buy any LSx, and that's not because of power output.

My point is that I disagree with your cost analysis. But to each his own. I would like to see a SBC powered BMW so go build one!

[///Ficarra]

My point is that I disagree with your cost analysis. But to each his own. I would like to see a SBC powered BMW so go build one!


i plan on it.

3 series + 5.7L motor = 357. Althought it wouldnt be a Magnum unless it were a Chrysler. :-\

[///Ficarra]

YEEEE HAW! Lets get us some holley "doublr-pumpers" up in here! :D

Doing a quality, powerful, reliable, lightweight, emissions legal, drive-it-in-any-condition (EFI) V8 swap into a BMW isn't about finding the cheapest motor you can conceive of. Hell, they even use LS1 motors in ASA stock car racing. You bet your ass they'd use them in NASCAR if it weren't limited to 50 year old engine designs. Toyota had to "design" a special cam-in-block V8 to be eligible for that series. :rolleyes

Fanboy, run on over to the pick-a-part and get that $99 305cid V8, slide in that 3/4 race cam, some double-hump factory heads, dial in that HEI and MSD, slap on some Hookers tied into some Cherrybombs, and get er dun!!. :buttrock Then slap on that Number 3 sticker in the back window...

OK, last post on the old skool SBC-vs-LS1 debate for me... let's quit picking on Ficarra now. :)


Actually i hate the "drive fast, turn left" BS that surrounds me. I just know what is effective in a street rod. Can anyone else say that they did a motor and tranny swap single-handedly when they were 16-17?

I did not want to debate which is better. Undoubtedly the LSx motors are more advanced than the old school SBC's, but which is cheaper/easier to put in/fix?

Anyways, to the OP: lets see some pics when you get it finished.:redspot

[ChevelleRyan]

why did you decide on 357ci?

[///Ficarra]

why did you decide on 357ci?

no, no, 350ci = 5.7 litres.

a 3 series car + engine size makes the model

eg.

3 series with 2.5 litre = 325

so a 3 series with a 5.7 (350 ci) would be a 357.

[JoeZ]

a 3 series car + engine size makes the model

eg.

3 series with 2.5 litre = 325


Unless of course you work for BMW Marketing dept....then what you describe above could also be a 323i ;)

[///Ficarra]

o rly?

care to elaborate?

[JoeZ]

o rly?

care to elaborate?

My wife's E46 323i has a 2.5l engine.

Many more examples of this can be found if you use the search button, hell just check out the new 328i on BMW's site http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/3/328isedan/techdata.htm

[ReiheSechs]

Anyone have a link to a running LS1 swapped into a E36?

[Fast 7]

i agree on the ls swap. It is really cheap to do. I work on ls1 at work and have built lots of them. My Trans AM is built and has 460 all motor to the tire and if that not enough for you, it got a 200 shot on on top of that. Its all out and it only cost me around 10000 to do a fully built and forged LS1. You can get the complete motor and harness with a 4l60e from 3000 and up. T-56's run a little more. But spend 300 on a cam and have the heads done for 1100 and 125.00 and you are done. Now you have 425 HP and around 390 torque and one bad ass Bimmer. Last what i think.:buttrock