DIY Water Injection... (LONG)

[John in DC]

Just spent ~5 hours reading the archives re: Water Injection and came up empty.

In short, I would like to build a water injection unit that is able to meter the alky/water mix based on the fuel injector pulsewidth (ala Aquamist's high end units minus the computer interface). By doing this, I will be able to maintain a relatively fixed water/fuel ratio and ensure steady-state heat reduction & detonation control across the RPM and load range.

One idea I had was to use an "extra" fuel injector with pressurized alky/water as the feed.

Any ideas as to whether the above would work given the corrosive nature of alcohol?

Any alternate suggestions welcomed as long as it makes use of low-cost readily available parts.

Rgds...

[BMWSOB]

megasquirt has an output for a water/alchy solenoid that is pulsed linear to fuel injection. I will be useing only the pump output and a pressure check valve though and trimming fuel for air/fuel.

[John in DC]

I'm not interested in a driver circuit as I've got that covered already.

What I need is the pump, valves, and water injector that can be slaved to a driver circuit - - be it a driver circuit already in the car (or one provided by an aftermarket unit ie MegaSquirt).

Thanks...

[///M3 CRAZY]

this is just an idea but two tanks one with water and one with alky. two pumps one for each. and have them y into one line after so they can mix. if you some how use the rpm current to control the volume of the pumps output i think you may have what you are looking for. i have no idea how to make this work nor if it can but it is an idea.

[DukeM535i/Turbo]

Try this -
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=750&highlight=diy

Or this -

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1214&highlight=surflow

http://www.shurflo.com/pages/home.html

[John in DC]

Thanks Duke - - Shurflo was on my list of possibles already.

Thanks also for the Aquamist links, and while I'm very familiar with their products, I was looking for something (much much) more affordable.

[pbonsalb]

Just use an Aquamist FIA and high speed valve and corresponding manifold. No need to reinvent the wheel. The FIA takes a signal from an injector without affecting that signal, amplifies it and uses it to drive the high speed valve, which is essentially a solenoid just like an injector. The high speed valve pulses the same as the injectors, for load proportional water injection. You still have the boost onset threshold, but can set it lower since you need not worry about injecting too much water. Duty cycle controls the flow. You can still control the range of the flow by sizing the water nozzle.

You can also use these parts on your DIY kit. There is another approach, that used by the Snow Performance Boost Cooler, which is to use the air mass meter output to vary the output and thus pressure of the water pump to vary the flow, again with a boost onset threshold that you can adjust. I use the Aquamist.

Philip Bradley

[DukeM535i/Turbo]

For Aquamist pieces and parts go to URD - http://www.urdusa.com/index.php?cPath=17_89&osCsid=30568e18ae33c6c9c6ad9d44f2643b61

http://www.urdusa.com/images/catalog/124806201_lrg_med.jpg

For example - Here is the manifold and pressure switch - $88.

I you don't use the AM pump (over $500) and a surflow, you are way ahead of the game already.

I have a AM 2C system and am very happy with the results thus far. I bought it from one of the members of this forum for under $500.

[John in DC]

pbonsalb / DukeM535i/Turbo -

Thanks but the whole point is to use components OTHER THAN AQUAMIST.

To that end, any suggestions?

Rgds...

[5mall5nail5]

I don't understand what you're trying to do - make a water injection kit but not use common parts... why?

[Shuasha]

Look at the cooling mist website. They have a big selection of pumps, high speed solonoids and the control boxes you're looking for at a decent price (way below Aquamist at least).

[uberhammer]

coolingmist.com


pbonsalb / DukeM535i/Turbo -

Thanks but the whole point is to use components OTHER THAN AQUAMIST.

To that end, any suggestions?

Rgds...

[pbonsalb]

In the original post, you wanted to avoid the expensive Aquamist programmable interface. You do not need it, as I explained above, if you use the FIA and high speed valve and manifold. I was told early on (i.e., five years ago) by Brad Schaffner, one of the top Aquamist guys in the UG, that if I had high impedence injectors, I could run the Aquamist high speed valve right off an injector by splicing, and did not need the FIA. I ran this way for a while without any problems. Assuming you have high impedence injectors, maybe you can piggback something else off one of them -- but I would do some research on exactly what you might get away with first. The ground at the ECU is what pulses the injector so it may be possible to tie another solenoid to that ground.

If you cannot afford or do not want to buy those $300 in Aquamist parts, there is the complete $400 Boostcooler kit that is load proportional and uses no quamist parts.

If you do not want to spend even that much, but still want all those features, you might have a problem. There is or used to be an internet "club" you could join that was based in Australia and that had hundreds of "technical" and "DIY" articles available. Some were based on low cost electronic circuits you could buy or make. One was called "intelligent intercooler sprayer."

Megasquirt provides for extra outputs also, but of course, you will need a high speed solenoid valve to pulse the water and I know of only the Aquamist, but there are probably others. Maybe you could use a fuel injector if you ran the right fluids through it -- you would have to research what you can run through one - alcohol, toulene, maybe a limited percentage of water? See what the E85 ethanol people run for injectors and you will know the answer for alcohol.

Philip Bradley

[John in DC]

I don't understand what you're trying to do - make a water injection kit but not use common parts... why?

Uh... Nice name, Urin... -

Judging from the tone of your post, I'm not surprised that you don't understand.

To borrow a quote I saw here some time ago: "If you want to have a clue, build something".

Rgds...

[John in DC]

pbonsalb -

Thanks for your on-target reply. I have been looking into using E85 and M85 compatible units. Just looking for guidance as to what, if anything, has been tried by those on this board. Ditto for pumps, solenoids, and pressure switches.

FYI, I was already aware that you could use the Aquamist injector unit with the stock injector driver in the car. In the end, that is the one I may end up purchasing.

In the meantime, I'm still looking to DIY and - - at the expense of "urinating" on myself - - get a clue.

Rgds...

[pbonsalb]

UrineMachine has built a Megasquirt, installed it on his BMW -- perhaps one of the first fuel injected BMW applications -- and tuned it. While much of building a Megasquirt is paint by numbers -- I built one a few years ago and am not at all electronically minded, the application to a particular car does require a lot of work and often some pioneering.

Philip Bradley

[GodFather]

i sense a lock of thread after a few more posts :rolleyes
:eatpop:

[Ahmed303]

Guys..... I have monitored John in DC's TT quest from the beginning and contributed my time and a helping hand when ever I could.

John hand-fabricated every piece of a twin turbo system for the M70 V-12 including the manifolds (The first design and the current), intercooler, plumbing, and all of the engine management bits. He was the first to discover a bug in the BMW EML unit and re-designed the engine management circuits to fix it.

So, I guess you could say that John is also a pioneer of sorts.

[5mall5nail5]

Uh... Nice name, Urin... -

Judging from the tone of your post, I'm not surprised that you don't understand.

To borrow a quote I saw here some time ago: "If you want to have a clue, build something".

Rgds...

What in the hell is your problem?

I have not said anything with any sort of tone - you want a system that injects water/alcohol based on injector pulse but you don't want the aquamist because...

I don't understand 1) your attitude toward me 2) your intention of accomplishing this without some form of computer control.

You cannot use a fuel injector for water injection - you can try it, but who knows how soon it will fail as meth/alcohol/water have different lubrication properties than the gasoline it is originally intended for.

Again, not sure what your problem with me is - I have built a DIY waterinjection controller - its called MegaSquirt. You could build a megasquirt for $189 and have water control. Again, my question originally is (and this is literal, without tone) "What are you trying to accomplish - what are you going to interface this injection system to?"

It sounds like you're wanting to simply tap a fuel injector signal to pulse the water injector, however that will double the resistance on your injection circuit and perhaps damage something there.

Maybe you can clarify without being a shithead - I was genuinely asking you what you are trying to do whilst not using Aquamist based systems... but hey, if you want to play that card, go for it.


Also worth mentioning is that by simply T-ing a water injector into the fuel injection, you'll be triggering at all RPMs. I don't think I'd want to be spraying water/meth at idle - its not economic nor is it effective. Yes, your water injector would perhaps follow a close match in pulsewidth to that of the fuel injector, but PWM type valves and highspeed valves differ in speed. Typical injector opening time is 0.1ms - what of the valve you intend to use? It could be more or less effective - again I am not sure why you took huge offense in my first post, I literally was asking why you're trying to DIY a circuit that is widely available and cheap.

I would recommend a more controllable concept but up to you of course.

http://www.extraefi.co.uk/manual/MS_Extra_Hardware_Manual_files/water-circuit.jpg

http://www.extraefi.co.uk/manual/MS_Extra_Hardware_Manual_files/water-flow.jpg

This circuit is obviously logic-based and turns on at certain boost/load/rpm/tps. But, you get the premise. They recommend using the Aquamist valve.

[John in DC]

Perhaps I should make things a bit more clear for those that missed the intention of my original post (excerpt below).


One idea I had was to use an "extra" fuel injector with pressurized alky/water as the feed.

Any ideas as to whether the above would work given the corrosive nature of alcohol?

I am not looking for driver circuits as the electronic part of the project is easy. I am, however, looking for hardware bits (injectors, pumps, solenoids, pressure switches, etc) that can live in the corrosive alky/water environment.

I've investigated a bit of the E85 & M85 stuff but was looking to see if anyone here had any experience with those.

And for the record (again), I'm looking to use other than Aquamist bits to accomplish this.

Rgds...

[5mall5nail5]

John - perhaps there are no other parts than Aquamist to accomplish this. I mean, this forum rarely uses water injection and when they do it's usually 99% aquamist stuff. Aquamist is probably producing or sourcing their stuff for/from a main provider anyway. I would trust the Aquamist stuff - any reason you don't want their stuff other than price?

[Neil]

John - perhaps there are no other parts than Aquamist to accomplish this. I mean, this forum rarely uses water injection and when they do it's usually 99% aquamist stuff. Aquamist is probably producing or sourcing their stuff for/from a main provider anyway. I would trust the Aquamist stuff - any reason you don't want their stuff other than price?

I don't know John (though I live/work in DC), but suspect he enjoys the DIY challenge and sense of accomplishment from having something that no one else has

Neil

[John in DC]

I would trust the Aquamist stuff - any reason you don't want their stuff other than price?

Price isn't the motivator. Rather, I'm interested in learning about technologies by fabricating them on my own. Example - Boost Controller: Building my own BC allowed me to determine what features are important to me. I now own an off-the-shelf unit that I consider to be best-of-breed.

It usually costs more in the long run ie building a megasquirt and eventually replacing it with a Haltech or similar unit. The $189 MS was the learning curve. The Haltech is the realization of that learning coupled with the reliability of a well-established product company.

For me, the extra cost is worth it.

[uberhammer]

Once again COOLINGMIST has the parts at good prices

[techno550]

late to the game here... but a few suggestions.

Most fuel injectors won't like water. Misting nozzles, usually the industrial/agricultural kind, will be fine with it though.
I played with water injection for a bit on my 525. I used a shurflo pump, a 12v flow control solenoid, a few different agricultural sprayers, and of course a 1 gallon hawaiian tropic bottle. :)

If you get a fast enough solenoid, the easy way to control it would be to piggyback off of one of the injector signals. Not directly, but use that as an input to an amplifier. Then it comes down to either modifying that signal on the way to the solenoid for fine tuning, or playing with nozzle sizes, or both. The whole thing should be under $200, budgeting ~100 for the pump itself.

[dynamowhum]

Try autospeed.com for that Austrailian performance site. I think you will have to pay like $15 a year for a subscription. Aussies really like DIY stuff.

[NYYanksFan]

any updates?