Manual Driving Questions

[tachyonz]

So I've been driving an old '84 volvo, 4-speed MT w/elec overdrive, for over the past year for the sole purpose of teaching myself to use a MT. I am now upgrading to a brand new 2007 335i with MT. While I am confident in my MT driving abilities there are still a few questions I have regarding techniques for good MT driving. I would be curious to hear any comments or suggestions the forum readers have. Also if there are any useful sites any of you have read regarding MT technique, please post.

Most of my questions pertain to BMWs warning in the owner's manual:
"Never drive with the clutch held down, with the transmission in idle or with the engine switched off; otherwise, engine braking action will not be present or there will be no power assistance to the brakes or steering."

1) You are driving at 65mph. Hit the brakes for an ABS stop. Do you apply the clutch too? Or do you apply it right before the car stops? You don't want to lose engine braking assistance, but how effective is engine braking in 5th or 6th gear when you are at a very low speed?

2) Starting from a standstill. Shift into first, and accelerate. Shift out of 1st about to go to 2nd, but notice car in front has stopped suddenly. So your car is in a forward motion, do you put it into 2nd and brake? Or do you leave the transmission in neutral and brake?

3) Similar to question 1, when coming to a complete stop from 65mph, at what speed do you apply the clutch? Would you ever just stay in 5th or 6th and brake to a complete stop applying the clutch just before the complete stop? Or downshift a few times during the slow down?

From all the reviews I've read, it sounds like the 335i is very forgiving in terms of what gear you are in, and has plenty of torque in pretty much the entire rpm band.

So I reread what the manual says...let's just say I've had a lot of time to read the owner's manual as I anxiously await the arrival of my coupe. I may be over-analyzing but I want to make sure I know how to drive this beast when it shows up. So ABS and power assist to brakes and steering will still work regardless if the car is in gear, but the engine braking will not be present.

Quickly going back to the quote from the owner's manual:
Never drive with the clutch held down, with the transmission in idle - this would pertain to engine breaking action, but WOULD NOT affect the power assistance to the brakes and steering, correct?

Having the car turned off would result in no power assistance to the brakes or steering. I know this from my Volvo breaking down numerous times and it being hard to steer and hard to stop.

Thanks for all your comments.

[2K7328i]

All some pretty good questions...????? To tell you the truth it really all depends on the driver. Some people don't even use the brakes when slowing down, while other do the total opposite. Glide in neutral and use the brakes down.

To answer your questions in my terms of driving mt. Please everyone give their own opinion on it to as for I may not be correct in your books, lol.

1.) When your at high speeds and you need to do an emergency stop. Imediately apply both brake and clutch. You dont want the engine to stall out. Staying in 6th or downshifting to 5th wont really play a big enough role as in stopping you. Leaving it gear will make you stall out.

2.) Definitley both clutch and brake at the same time.

If you wanted to take a driving course. I would highly recommend the Skip Barber Racing School. Ive went there and have had a ball going everytime. Ive been up to the 2 day racing school. The 3 day is in the range of about $4,500. Way to expensive for me, lol. I'm saving my money for the M-School, oh yeaaa.

3.) Listen to your engine. Really a well enough driver doesnt need a tachometer. He/she will listen to their engine to know when to shift or downshift.

To cut things down. Its not hard. All I can say is that to go into reverse now, you dont have to pull up on that black knob around the shifter. You just have to go far left, lol.

[cemman]

The only issue in the long run is brake pad wear. While it's true that the engine breaking will assist in the deceleration process, the brakes with the clutch in or with the trans in neutral will stop the car just fine. In an emergency situation, do what ever you have to do to get the car stopped. If the car stalls because you didn't get the clutch in in time, not a big deal. However, if you hit something because you were trying to maximize the breaking efficiency of the car, that's probably a bigger problem. As I stated in the beginning of the post, the car will stop just fine with the clutch depressed, but it may increase the wear on the rotors. Additionally, the 335i is supposed to have fantastic brakes. Mine is on order so I don't have any first hand info yet.

[denton]

Greetings:

These are my own personal observations, from driving MT on bikes, cars, and even trucks, way back when. I didn;t learn them on the track, so maybe they're not correct, but here goes...

First, I think the warning in the manual is a CYA lawsuit thing. They don't want the car to be potentially out of control. Basically they are saying keep the car in gear under engine power. In a auto car, it would be similar to suggesting that you don't put the tranny in 'n' and roll down the hill. No real mechanical reason I can think of not to do it.

#1. In an emergency stop, just floor the clutch along with the brake. You don't want to be trying to finesse things in an emergency. You want to concentrate on stopping and steering. Engine braking won't get you anything in that scenario.

#2. I'd leave in neutral and again depress both brake and clutch. This way you are ready to choose appropriate gear should the situation suddenly clear.

#3. I'm just not a fan of downshifting in a situation like that. Again, I just drop the clutch along with the brake. What I would do is flick the shifter into neutral again to be ready to choose appropriate gear if the situation changes. One of the reasons I am not in favor of downshifting or engine breaking to a complete stop is cost; as has been noted by many a wag, brake pads are cheaper than synchro gears.

Re your query about driving in idle (i.e., clutch in engine running) power stuff will work. They don't want you driving with what they see as an out-of-control car.

Denton

[GatorM]

In any panic stop, brake and clutch all the way in.

[CokerRat]

One reason to keep the clutch in under braking or collision avoidance is that if you were to decide you needed to accelerate again for some reason, you already have the car in gear. Some drivers ed schools say you shouldn't shift gears in an intersection for that reason as well (may need to get the hell out of the intersection and be unable to get it into gear fast enough), but I do it all the time anyway. I have been caught a couple of times but I'm too stubborn to learn and my daily driver's 1st gear runs out of comfortable revs half way thru the intersection and begs for 2nd.

In a panic situation (eg. off road excursion, spin) you should push the clutch in to disengage the drive wheels for obvious reasons. During hard braking I often leave the clutch engaged (left foot braced against the deadpedal) and push the clutch pedal in when the rpms are bogging down below 1500 or so (none of my cars have had a lot of torque < 1500rpms).

My father taught me to downshift while coming to a stop. It took me a long time to come to realize that he was wrong, since clutches cost >> brake pads!

[tachyonz]

Thanks to all of you who replied to my questions. Sounds like I just shouldn't be afraid to use the clutch. I've always avoided trying to hold the clutch in for extended periods which I know is recommended. It looks like the advantage of keeping your foot on the clutch while braking is the ability to shift into any gear if need be. That's good for me to realize since many times I would put the clutch in, shift to idle, then release the clutch and put my foot on the dead pedal. But I suppose the only reason to leave your foot on the clutch is if you SEE traffic moving ahead and anticipate the need to shift sooner rather than later.

I know every person drives a MT a little bit differently. I've taken the BMW driving school, but it was in an AT 330i '06. From my own experience and what I read, MT driving is a lot about anticipation. Anticipate what gear you will need and get into it. Look ahead in traffic, which I normally do even driving an AT. Don't shift and turn at the same time. Kinda goes along with not accelerating around a turn. You want to keep the car stable and on all 4 tires while in the turn and accelerate when you come out. Keep the number of activities to a minimum...a mix between shifting, turning, and accelerating.

The Skip Barber Racing School looks absolutely awesome and what I need. Just kinda pricey since I'm all ready shelling out a wad of dough for the car. But I would love to learn from the pros. It will be on my list.

[Jhunter]

I typically engine brake in the gear I am in until just before the point the engine will start lugging (avoid this). If I am slowing in a high gear and think I may want to accelerate soon, like when I know the light will go green before I stop, I will put the clutch in and select the gear I will want, rev match and let the clutch out or just hold clutch for a second or two then go to neutral if I was wrong and have to continue braking. I don't engine break by downshifting often due to wear on syncros and clutch, as said previously, brake pads are much cheaper.

[PeterC4]

The one overriding thing to do when driving a manual is to get in the habit of braking while in gear, but don't depress the clutch too quickly. Brake.....then clutch prior to having the engine lugs as Jhunter has suggested. Many people depress the clutch too quickly...don't get in the habit of doing that. Brake.....then clutch.

As to braking from 65 (in a non-panic situation), I tend to downshift once, but conventional wisdom is that you don't...brakes are cheaper than a clutch. Of course if you really want to make the drivetrain run smoothly, you should get in the habit of "blipping the throttle" when downshifting....its a good habit to get into as well....

[cemman]

It's a little more complicated than "blipping the throttle". The idea is to match engine revs with transmission revs to minimize wear on both the clutch and the gears. If you do this properly, you can shift without the clutch. This is a pretty advanced skill that requires a great deal of practice to pull it off without harming your car.

[E90Toad]

I think most of those warnings apply to driving in a downhill situation for a long period of time. In short situations it is always better to do what feels comfortable to you. No need to be messing around in traffic doing something that doesn't feel right.

Most of the time I tend to apply brake first and then clutch second, holding the clutch and moving to a gear I think will be appropriate if I need to reengage quickly. I tend to move down from 5th or 6th to 4th and then to 2nd. Very seldom do I select the odd numbered gears when I'm doing this, don't know why, just habbit. If I'm in to it I will reengage the transmission and match the revs, but that's only if I'm trying to have fun.

[steve99m3]

The biggest advice I can give is to make sure you completely remove your foot from the clutch after releasing it. Don't ride the clutch, just like you don't ride the brake.

It's up to you if you want to engine brake and/or downshift. I do it down to third gear typically, but that's just my preference. Keep in mind it's a hell of a lot easier to replace brakes as compared to the clutch and throwout bearing!

[Babagnush]

Look, driving stick is like having sex. nobody can tell ya how to do it. ya just gotta keep doing it til ya figure everything out

[PeterC4]

It's a little more complicated than "blipping the throttle". The idea is to match engine revs with transmission revs to minimize wear on both the clutch and the gears. If you do this properly, you can shift without the clutch. This is a pretty advanced skill that requires a great deal of practice to pull it off without harming your car.

Well, its a little like Babaganush put it....anyway its not THAT complicated, you'll feel when you do it right....and yes use some common sense and don't rev it to 7,000 RPM and THEN downshift. The objective is to get the revs up to facilitate a smooth engagement of the gears.