TS Dyno....VERY Low AFR's...

[Tanks95]

Okay,

Well here goes: The fuel pressure regulator is new; injectors new, vac line from TS to FPR clear; Feed and return fuel lines are clear no kinks; fuel pump new. So the only thing in question is the 02 sensor. I have ordered one as per Josh's instructions. I put down a 281hp and 275tq on two different dyno's (mustang and a dynojet) the Dyno jet guy stopped the runs because it was too lean. The freakin AFR line looks like a radio sine wave! I trust Josh, he says replace the 02 sensor and it should be good. So my baby is down until Friday of next week.

Any other input?


I'm going out with the wife to blow off some steam, so my replies will be late.

Thanks guys

William

http://home.earthlink.net/~willtwallace/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/ts1.jpg

http://home.earthlink.net/~willtwallace/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/ts2.jpg

[Ryan-N-Austin]

Are you monitering fuel pressure during the run? Looks like it could be vacume related.

On a plus note, I dont think it would make near the power it did, and nearly as smoothly, if indeed your a/f was correct.

[Tanks95]

Are you monitering fuel pressure during the run? Looks like it could be vacume related.

On a plus note, I dont think it would make near the power it did, and nearly as smoothly, if indeed your a/f was correct.


so, are you saying if they (the AFR) was correct it would not put those number down? It should be putting down in the vicinity of 360whp?

[Ryan-N-Austin]

so, are you saying if they (the AFR) was correct it would not put those number down? It should be putting down in the vicinity of 360whp?

No, what I'm saying is that if indeed your A/F is going up and down, fluctuating as fast as the dynograph shows, your power would not have remained on a steady climb. I think you definitely need to swap the O2 sensor, and go from there.

[Ryan-N-Austin]

Doh - You just posted the Torque graph, it didnt have that when I first posted. It looks to be some sort of vacume problem perhaps with your FPR. You're either losing fuel or detonating very badly. The torque graph shouldnt have spikes like that. It is not the o2 sensor that is the problem.

[jmc]

You said in your title very low AFR (rich) but you said the guy stopped the run because it was very lean. Which way are your AFR's rich or lean?

I had a uber rich condition from a boost leak (I had normal vaccum and normal boost) but the car ran like a dog at wot and was pinned rich. My manifold was not seated properly on the head. I dont know if the ES kit wants to lean off the rear part of the head (towards the snout bracket) like the AA one does. But that could be your problem, I would check all the nuts on the studs. If your leaking boost your AFRS will be all over the place.

Also check to make sure you did not switch your o2 sensors aound (bank 1 is in bank 2) when you reinstalled them.

JMC

[///M3///M5]

William, make sure you have the right O2s pluged into the correct ports. Header 1-3 goes to the back and 4-6 goes to the front. This is very important and will cause you to run VERY lean if swapped.

EDIT: I just saw you said the same thing JMC, but great mind think alike. :D

[Mod Addict]

I think this kind of looks like some sort of belt slip.
My 02 cts

[5mall5nail5]

Does not look like belt slip...

[M_US_E30]

kinda looks like mis fires when they get jagged like that. Mis fires are lean registered also.

T

[Tanks95]

You said in your title very low AFR (rich) but you said the guy stopped the run because it was very lean. Which way are your AFR's rich or lean?

I had a uber rich condition from a boost leak (I had normal vaccum and normal boost) but the car ran like a dog at wot and was pinned rich. My manifold was not seated properly on the head. I dont know if the ES kit wants to lean off the rear part of the head (towards the snout bracket) like the AA one does. But that could be your problem, I would check all the nuts on the studs. If your leaking boost your AFRS will be all over the place.

Also check to make sure you did not switch your o2 sensors aound (bank 1 is in bank 2) when you reinstalled them.

JMC

I meant high numbers as in lean. I only have one bank, i'm obd 1.

[Tanks95]

William, make sure you have the right O2s pluged into the correct ports. Header 1-3 goes to the back and 4-6 goes to the front. This is very important and will cause you to run VERY lean if swapped.

EDIT: I just saw you said the same thing JMC, but great mind think alike. :D

I only have one 02 sensor, OBD 1.


I think this kind of looks like some sort of belt slip.
My 02 cts

Do you think it could be clutch slip? If belt slip would i hear the squeal? or no?


kinda looks like mis fires when they get jagged like that. Mis fires are lean registered also.

T

I did change plugs to a colder value? So many freakin possibilities!!!!!!!

[Tanks95]

Okay, I just got back from dinner. Before I left, I filled the car up with fuel and parked it in the garage. When I returned I could smell fuel in the garage. I checked and checked and checked and checked and I cannot see any leakage on the ground or around any hose clamps??????????????????????????????????????

[jmc]

You gotta go thru everything fuel related that you installed, especially the fuel pump and make sure the FPR is installed correctly. Maybe your FPR is not reading boost and adjusting the fuel pressure accordingly. Check the vac source.


JMC

[Tanks95]

You gotta go thru everything fuel related that you installed, especially the fuel pump and make sure the FPR is installed correctly. Maybe your FPR is not reading boost and adjusting the fuel pressure accordingly. Check the vac source.


JMC
Yup, i agree. I have some ideas; tomorrow morning will be troubleshooting 101. First will be the fuel pump, there was a wire that was on the old pump housing that was kind of questionable, that i am going to check and replace if the dealer is open on Saturday? Is the parts dep open on Saturday?

[jmc]

Yup, i agree. I have some ideas; tomorrow morning will be troubleshooting 101. First will be the fuel pump, there was a wire that was on the old pump housing that was kind of questionable, that i am going to check and replace if the dealer is open on Saturday? Is the parts dep open on Saturday?

I have 2 dealers in my area one the parts is open on sat. the other is closed. I guess its dealer specific.

Good luck, dont let it get you down, It all works out in the end. I wouldnt buy an o2 sensor till you check everything, I kinda doubt thats the problem, it was working fine before the install right?

JMC

[Tanks95]

yes it was. I have a confession, that when it happened i was affraid it would come back to bite me in the butt. I think the culprit may be the positive wire that runs to the fuel pump inside the tank. When I pulled my OEM pump out, it seemed that it had overheated or something, it was a little frayed, and where the wire exits the tank to the plug the hole looked as if it had melted a little. When i striped back the insulation the wire was oxidizing. I guess the tank had been ran too low in fuel in the past. But, the fuel pump was my last step in a long day of working, so what did i do, I soldered the new one in anyway (smart). I am thinking I am not getting good continuity in that wire, which in turn is causing the fuel pump to act erratically?

****** edit: the fuel pump is basically a little motor, so if the voltage was up and down due to a bad wire then it would also fluctuate in pressure up and down, correct? Which in turn would cause the sine wave effect on the torque curve, and AFR?

[///M3///M5]

yes it was. I have a confession, that when it happened i was affraid it would come back to bite me in the butt. I think the culprit may be the positive wire that runs to the fuel pump inside the tank. When I pulled my OEM pump out, it seemed that it had overheated or something, it was a little frayed, and where the wire exits the tank to the plug the hole looked as if it had melted a little. When i striped back the insulation the wire was oxidizing. I guess the tank had been ran too low in fuel in the past. But, the fuel pump was my last step in a long day of working, so what did i do, I soldered the new one in anyway (smart). I am thinking I am not getting good continuity in that wire, which in turn is causing the fuel pump to act erratically?

****** edit: the fuel pump is basically a little motor, so if the voltage was up and down due to a bad wire then it would also fluctuate in pressure up and down, correct? Which in turn would cause the sine wave effect on the torque curve, and AFR?

Did you solder directly to the pins or cut the wire and solder to it? You are supposed to go directly to the pins and make sure to use the provided harness.

[Tanks95]

Seems like the 02 sensor may have done the trick. I’ll see next week if it will be the cure to the retarded AFR’s. Taking it to Motorsport Connections and let some real BMW guy’s put it on a dyno. She definitely feels a lot better, well as for that, she felt great before, but now even better.

BTW it develops 10psi now (as per my VDO gauge). Nice side effect, maybe.?

William

[5mall5nail5]

I am pretty confused - you're faulting a stock NB O2 for your AFR reading? When you dyno, you are WOT. When you are WOT you go open loop and O2 isn't considered...

[Tanks95]

??? school me, im learning. what do you think?

but with the new 02, its running super? even better than it was! new dyno next week.

[5mall5nail5]

??? school me, im learning. what do you think?

but with the new 02, its running super? even better than it was! new dyno next week.

Typically WOT disregards the fueling and runs straight from the fuel map. No target no nothing. It could be placebo - I guess the only way to find out is to sniff it again.

[54ODell]

Typically WOT disregards the fueling and runs straight from the fuel map. No target no nothing. It could be placebo - I guess the only way to find out is to sniff it again.

wait, won't the ltft be applied to the open loop maps.

[5mall5nail5]

wait, won't the ltft be applied to the open loop maps.

User said he's OBDI so the ltft isn't going to do much anyway from my understanding. Additionally, the LTFT is "long term fuel trim" - the guy has assumingly reset that when putting his chip in etc.

[gerry_miranda]

LTFT will not cause a jagged AFR at open loop. It adds/subtracts a SET amount of fuel to whatever is in the MAP. It can make the run ALL lean or ALL rich, but not like the graph....

[Tanks95]

Typically WOT disregards the fueling and runs straight from the fuel map. No target no nothing. It could be placebo - I guess the only way to find out is to sniff it again.


I agree, i plan to sniff some time early next week. maybe a AFR guage is not a bad idea. Are there any under $300?

[e36'n]

I agree, i plan to sniff some time early next week. maybe a AFR guage is not a bad idea. Are there any under $300?

Yup. The NGK AFX is the most accurate on the market and under $300.

[Tanks95]

Yup. The NGK AFX is the most accurate on the market and under $300.


and where can i get one? how does AEM stack up?

[Johno]

I have a TS on the way, and your experience raises some questions..

Is it obvious driving the car that there is a problem, or does it show up only on the dyno?

Would you consider a post-install dyno as essential to confirm the install was correctly done?

Thanks,

[resisTm3]

Would you consider a post-install dyno as essential to confirm the install was correctly done?

Thanks,

YES... especially if you dont have the correct gauges to monitor the setup.

[jmc]

Any progress?


JMC

[Tanks95]

Any progress?


JMC
YUP!

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum//showthread.php?t=661730

[Tanks95]

YES... especially if you dont have the correct gauges to monitor the setup.

YES! Thats a double, double, double YES! Ditto on the gauges!

[jmc]

While your in there you should check the resistance to your ignition coils. Doesnt cost anything and a bad coil could cause misfires and/or lean AFR's.


Good luck. Keep us posted.

Taking out the TS becomes second nature after you have done it enough times, been there done that :mad


JMC

[Tanks95]

While your in there you should check the resistance to your ignition coils. Doesnt cost anything and a bad coil could cause misfires and/or lean AFR's.JMC

How? or should i say at what points do i check?

[jmc]

The procedure is in bently. IIRC With the plug disconnected, I believe you place the leads on the outer two ports, I forget what the ohm reading is. I would double check the how to though, I usually read over the bently before I do it and Its been ahile since I tested mine.


JMC

[Tanks95]

The procedure is in bently. IIRC With the plug disconnected, I believe you place the leads on the outer two ports, I forget what the ohm reading is. I would double check the how to though, I usually read over the bently before I do it and Its been ahile since I tested mine.


JMC


okay, i'll break out my bently

thanks

[Johno]

Taking out the TS becomes second nature after you have done it enough times, been there done that

Posts like this scare the crap out of me. If I have to take out the TS enough so it becomes "second nature," I will be .... words escape me.

How likely is it that I would need to unistall it?

Thanks,

[///M3///M5]

Posts like this scare the crap out of me. If I have to take out the TS enough so it becomes "second nature," I will be .... words escape me.

How likely is it that I would need to unistall it?

Thanks,

If the install is done properly and you never have to remove your head (gasket etc.) then never. There is no reason to have to remove the TS unless a sensor goes bad or the install was done improperly. That said, the TS is easier to remove than the stock manifold.

[jmc]

yup, if you do it right the first time, it should rarely have to removed. I believe it HAS to come out if you have to change out your altenator (or atleast loosened). Also, if you decide to do an oil cooler after the fact it WILL have to come out, so do right the first time (Its easy during the install).

JMC

[Tanks95]

Posts like this scare the crap out of me. If I have to take out the TS enough so it becomes "second nature," I will be .... words escape me.

How likely is it that I would need to unistall it?

Thanks,

I understand your fear. First, the kit was installed correctly, what I am doing has NOTHING to do with how the kit was installed. Keep in mind my car just went over 100,000 miles, she’s ageing (I’m sorry maturing). The fault code 1226 i have had for a while before FI, i never did anything about it because i did not think it was affecting my performance (my bad).

I can’t stress this enough THE TS DID NOT CAUSE THIS! Besides the clutch, 99% of what I am doing is either good to have stuff or general maintenance items that were either already bad, going bad or needed to be changed anyway. Ask any guy here, no matter the kit, our babies are ageing (maturing) and they need to be freshened up for FI. All the old school guys here, along with Josh, told me the exact same thing when i was shopping for a kit. They said whatever kit you get "be sure your car is running in tip top condition"

The TS itself is AWESOME! If my baby was 50,000 younger or if I had done all the little things before I installed the kit she would running like a top!

*don’t tell her I said that comment about being younger :-)

William

[agu845]

Very nice clarification. So far mine has zero fault codes (she only has 60K and is a '99), and my butt dyno tells me all is well. But, to be sure, I plan on dyno-ing mine soon, just to be sure .....

[Johno]

Thanks for the reassurance.

My car has 118K miles, so maturing is happening here too.

However, my car is in exceptionally well-maintained condition, with about 60K of that being highway miles. (Does that really even matter???)

Looks like I need to schedule a dyno session the day I get the car back....I can;t see spending $300 more on a sniffer right now...

Surely an independant BMW shop would have this device?

[Tanks95]

Thanks for the reassurance.

My car has 118K miles, so maturing is happening here too.

However, my car is in exceptionally well-maintained condition, with about 60K of that being highway miles. (Does that really even matter???)

Looks like I need to schedule a dyno session the day I get the car back....I can;t see spending $300 more on a sniffer right now...

Surely an independant BMW shop would have this device?


Sounds good. If they have a dyno, they will have a sniffer.

[MoeMuny]

ok so my Eurosport TS kit got here just before Christmas and I was going to install it the week between Christmas and New Years, but, I was out getting a few last minute gifts.... sitting at a light and #$BAM$# someone rear ended me:mad .... Don't worry, nothing serious just some scrapes and bruises on the bumper... So I am waiting for it to get back from the shop before I install it....

The car runs great no codes or errors, has nearly 85k on the clock, I dynoed the car a few months back and she looked good 229/216, but it helped me find a small vaccum leak.

I have just replaced the front O2 sensors. I will be installing the oil cooler, new S54 radiatior, lower thermostat, a full set of gauges and a jdt underpanel.

I was wondering if there is anything else I should look at replacing while I am in there?

I was thinking the ICV maybe.... any other suggestions?

[Tanks95]

While your in there you should check the resistance to your ignition coils. Doesnt cost anything and a bad coil could cause misfires and/or lean AFR's.


Good luck. Keep us posted.

Taking out the TS becomes second nature after you have done it enough times, been there done that :mad


JMC


Resistance on all coils is between .4 and .8 ohms. Good. Thanks boss.

William