S54 into 2002

[bmwlovr]

Can/has it been done? :D

[MrBlah]

m20's fit ok, how much bigger is an s54?

the problem is weight, that's alot of weight up front, boosting gets you 250 at the wheel easy on an m10

[visionaut]

Well, I know for sure a M54 engine installation has been done. (M54 being the alum block decendent of S54). See the July 2006 issue of Roundel for the awesome modded 2002 Paul Cain built with/around that motor.

The work/mods for that swap were HUGE - i.e. it's not anything like a 'drop-in' Mod like even an S14 or M20 are...

http://www.bmwcca.org/files/roundel/2006/Mission-Improbable-July2006.pdf#search=%223002TTil%22

[MrBlah]

that car is so neat, but it's a total custom one off, without serious shop time that's not gonna be recreated


I'm not sure an engine that big is gonna do much good, my korman engine burns the tires in 1st/2nd, with boost guys rolling onto the throttle will smoke the tires in 3rd, these cars are so light it's hard to put that much power to the ground without wheelspin

[Alpine003]

http://www.automakedonija.com.mk/webcontent/0e3cc822e73a486e9ad4d3fb17a04b59.jpg

[bmwlovr]

:eyecrazy wow.

Absolutely insane. But, agreed, ~500hp in an 02 is a little nuts and impractical. So if you could build the dream 2002, what would you use as a powerplant. NA, to turbo or SC...

[visionaut]

: ...So if you could build the dream 2002, what would you use as a powerplant. NA, to turbo or SC...

From frequenting this and other forums, and seeing the many wild and modded O2s folks have built out there I see 2 primary 'trends' to very high HP 2002s. The M3 S14 motor replacement path and Turboing the 2002 M10. Yeah, there's lots of other variants, like SCing the M10, stroking/boring the M10, FI-ing the M10, applying rare Alpina/Schnitzer Grp5 M10 motor mods, or doing the M20 motor replacement - but from what I can recollect, the 1st two paths seem to be the most common means to mod to get the most HP (i.e. get over 275+HP).

I'm sure other's will weigh in... ;-)

[2many02s]

HAveing had all 3 my preference is the S 14. Sure, you could build a monster motor out of an M10, but The S 14 is pretty bullet proof. I just get in it and drive th snot out of it.

[MrBlah]

boost is too fun to pass up for me

[Savage76]

OMG I would dream to have an s14 in my 02... I'd cry if I could ever get ahold of one for cheap.
Buuuuuuuuuut i'd rather have a responsive motor over laggin' turbos. I wana build an autoX/Canyon/Drift car.;)

[MrBlah]

if you have turbo lag you did something wrong, or lowered compression too much

[Savage76]

I thought turbos always lag, unless you dump a bunch of money into them and soup them up. Please enlighten me if I am mistaken

[MrBlah]

I thought turbos always lag, unless you dump a bunch of money into them and soup them up. Please enlighten me if I am mistaken

extreme performance turbo's lag, the comp ratio must be dropped pretty low, so you wont have off idle power. People tend to put large turbo's on in that application which causes lag, ie the import tuner crowd


if you only want 250hp you do not need a huge turbo, proper sizing the turbo, and keep compression at least 8 and you'll have driveability and performance

when the original turbo's were made, they did not have spark control, or fuel control, or intercoolers, and log manifolds, so the only choice was to lower comp to a very very low level, those cars made power over 4000rpm, but they did not break 200hp, something like 6.9:1 ratio for 170hp

modern conversions cover all those bases so you will have a very drivable car when done. Proper fuel/spark control, and an intercooler allow you to run much higher compression ratios, and still boost, the number I see thrown around alot is..

static compression ratio of 18:1 for a driver, max of 22:1 for short periods of time. Ie if you have 9:1 compression you can run 9 psi turbo safely, you still get a driveable car, but that boost will be real nice, and you shouldnt have lag with a proper sized turbo

But if you want 300+hp at the wheel you will loose some driveability and have lag, that's the nature of the game

there are exceptions for more boost, water/alch injection etc, but 9psi on these cars is pretty good, that's all I'm gonna go for, 9psi built for a max of 13psi these cars are so light, my korman engine breaks the back end loose way too easy already, you'll need an LSD if you boost

if you look at the new bmw turbo's they are pushing the limits on compression vs boost, the new mini runs a twin scroll turbo, 1.6liter at 175hp (conservative) with a extra boost feature that bumps it up even more for short a short time. The new 335i turbo runs 10.5 compression ratio with twin turbo's

[m2002]

I guess I just don't get it. Why do so many people want to butcher these little cars? I have had a bunch of performance oriented BMW's (Dinan S2 M5, Stg2 M coupe, M3's etc). Have also owned quite a few 2002's with various engine configs (S14, SC, Stg2 & 3 M10's, stock). The 2002 was built for less than 150 HP. When you get over 200HP, you dramatically change the character of the car. If you want muscle car performance, there are better BMW platforms to do it with. As much as I respect Paul Cain's work, there aren't too many guys out there who will take the time and money and have the skill to build such a holistically designed 2002. Buy the way, an S54 crate motor costs more than the finished car would be worth.

[2many02s]

Yup, Tim is right. Don't plan on recouping alot of what you spend.

[MrBlah]

I think the appeal to modify these cars is a few reasons

cost/parts availability
looks
emissions issues with newer cars

in my case it's all three, but I'm not shoving a s52 into it, an m20 is a better choice if I wanted a bigger engine, as they almost bolt right in, but it throws the weight off even worse than it is

lets face it, they are damn cool cars, handle great, and extremely easy to work on, I just did all my suspension, started at 9:30, done at 1, the gland nuts on the struts held me up a while


I dont think you make what you put into a car ever, I did on my e30 & jeeps but both seem to have a fad thing going on here right now

[holdfastgreg]

if you have turbo lag you did something wrong, or lowered compression too much


extreme performance turbo's lag, the comp ratio must be dropped pretty low, so you wont have off idle power. People tend to put large turbo's on in that application which causes lag, ie the import tuner crowd


if you only want 250hp you do not need a huge turbo, proper sizing the turbo, and keep compression at least 8 and you'll have driveability and performance

when the original turbo's were made, they did not have spark control, or fuel control, or intercoolers, and log manifolds, so the only choice was to lower comp to a very very low level, those cars made power over 4000rpm, but they did not break 200hp, something like 6.9:1 ratio for 170hp

modern conversions cover all those bases so you will have a very drivable car when done. Proper fuel/spark control, and an intercooler allow you to run much higher compression ratios, and still boost, the number I see thrown around alot is..

static compression ratio of 18:1 for a driver, max of 22:1 for short periods of time. Ie if you have 9:1 compression you can run 9 psi turbo safely, you still get a driveable car, but that boost will be real nice, and you shouldnt have lag with a proper sized turbo

But if you want 300+hp at the wheel you will loose some driveability and have lag, that's the nature of the game

there are exceptions for more boost, water/alch injection etc, but 9psi on these cars is pretty good, that's all I'm gonna go for, 9psi built for a max of 13psi these cars are so light, my korman engine breaks the back end loose way too easy already, you'll need an LSD if you boost

if you look at the new bmw turbo's they are pushing the limits on compression vs boost, the new mini runs a twin scroll turbo, 1.6liter at 175hp (conservative) with a extra boost feature that bumps it up even more for short a short time. The new 335i turbo runs 10.5 compression ratio with twin turbo's



I dont think you catch the real point of turbo lag. Its not compression driven, its not AR driven; its simpley the design of the product your using. Turbos lag no matter what. From a t25/disco potatoe to T91's youll find lag as the volume of flow at early RPMS is not sufficient enough to actuate your wastegate, thus giving you boost. Lowering your compression is to offset the CFM's your expecting to flow. PSI, is irrelevant and subjective. 10psi at 100cfm is a lot different than 10psi at 1,000cfm.. Also you do not need 8:1comp to see 250whp on a m10. The m10 is bullet proof and ironically enough, unlike other boosted engines, will respond positively to NA mods(cam, heavy PnP, intake adjustments and etc.)

If you dont want lag, run a blower.

[MrBlah]

the lag most people talk about is completely oversized turbo's ie ricers.

I've driven/rode in lots of cars with no, or almost no noticable turbo lag

[holdfastgreg]

I wouldnt say no lag as thats not physically possible. You might not notice the lag, but its there. I have a buddy who has a T4 on his h22B prelude and lets say the lag sucks but with 200whp stock, it doesnt matter because once that turbo spools in its game over.

[jon volk]

Theres a simple solution to turbo lag. Downshift ;)

[luke318is]

Well, I know for sure a M54 engine installation has been done. (M54 being the alum block decendent of S54). See the July 2006 issue of Roundel for the awesome modded 2002 Paul Cain built with/around that motor.

The work/mods for that swap were HUGE - i.e. it's not anything like a 'drop-in' Mod like even an S14 or M20 are...

http://www.bmwcca.org/files/roundel/2006/Mission-Improbable-July2006.pdf#search=%223002TTil%22

Sweet Jesus what a car!:eek:

I recently aquired an S54, and was looking for a car to drop it in to, after reading this i'm going to look further!

thnx 4 the info!

[visionaut]

Sweet Jesus what a car!:eek:

I recently aquired an S54, and was looking for a car to drop it in to, after reading this i'm going to look further!

thnx 4 the info!

Just realize the S54 is WAY heavier than the M54 - it will have significantly more weigh/balance issues than Paul had to deal with in custom-engineering his S54-powered 2002...

[2many02s]

you can drop int in my325is....

[kpolito99]

extreme performance turbo's lag, the comp ratio must be dropped pretty low, so you wont have off idle power. People tend to put large turbo's on in that application which causes lag, ie the import tuner crowd


if you only want 250hp you do not need a huge turbo, proper sizing the turbo, and keep compression at least 8 and you'll have driveability and performance

when the original turbo's were made, they did not have spark control, or fuel control, or intercoolers, and log manifolds, so the only choice was to lower comp to a very very low level, those cars made power over 4000rpm, but they did not break 200hp, something like 6.9:1 ratio for 170hp

modern conversions cover all those bases so you will have a very drivable car when done. Proper fuel/spark control, and an intercooler allow you to run much higher compression ratios, and still boost, the number I see thrown around alot is..

static compression ratio of 18:1 for a driver, max of 22:1 for short periods of time. Ie if you have 9:1 compression you can run 9 psi turbo safely, you still get a driveable car, but that boost will be real nice, and you shouldnt have lag with a proper sized turbo

But if you want 300+hp at the wheel you will loose some driveability and have lag, that's the nature of the game

there are exceptions for more boost, water/alch injection etc, but 9psi on these cars is pretty good, that's all I'm gonna go for, 9psi built for a max of 13psi these cars are so light, my korman engine breaks the back end loose way too easy already, you'll need an LSD if you boost

if you look at the new bmw turbo's they are pushing the limits on compression vs boost, the new mini runs a twin scroll turbo, 1.6liter at 175hp (conservative) with a extra boost feature that bumps it up even more for short a short time. The new 335i turbo runs 10.5 compression ratio with twin turbo's

I really like this thread, great topic and not too much speculation. I found the quoted section to be a very accurate account of my experiences playing with FI.

I don't intend to get on a turbo pulpit and demean anything else, but all those who bash turbos for having lag really need to get a ride in a properly engineering turbo setup. Yes, there are more things happening and the throttle response may not always seem quite as crisp as a strung out highlift cam big carb motor, but those engine setups are not without fault either.

I really found the book by Corky Bell informative and tried to put many of his suggestions into practice. Everyone bashes turbos for always lagging but in his words if you have no turbo aren't you effectively always lagging.

The reason people complain about lag is because the huge rush of torque is not instantaneous precisely when they mash the loud pedal. This is because they are trying to spool too large of a turbo or the engines power band has not been matched to the rest of the system.

The new 335 setup is going to help dissolve some of the turbos bad rep. Barring expense it is the best of both worlds. I have yet to drive the new turbo six but based on the extensive research that I have done I bet the lag will be indiscernable compared to any NA car.

Lighten up on turbocharging and the less than perfect example delivered to the public during the 1970s in the 2002 turbo. For its time, it was a technological marvel and BMW engineers did their best. By todays measure of performance and driveability the 2002 turbo is an abomination.

I have found that the M10 is remarkably strong and currently I have my static compression around 8.5:1 and limit max boost to 16 psi on 93 octance super unleaded. I have been enjoying the driving experience and truth be told am a little uncomfortable with the idea of increasing the boost much further. I have been told by many tuners there is more untapped power, but I don't want to inadvertantly discover a mechanical weakness. My 2002 will light the tires up during 3rd gear roll-ons @ approximately 45 mph and launches incredibly hard out of the hole. There is no real perception of lag. I am sure the increased displacement helps to offset the losses of the camshaft and time requried to spool the larger turbo.

If you really want to eliminate all lag and feel the rush of a turbo just spray a little NOS to get the power up before reaching your systems boost threshold.

In closing, a lot of bad press and misinformation regarding turbos kept me from investgating them sooner. If I had only taken the time to stop and disprove the common folklore for myself a while ago, I could have been enjoying the rush of turbos that much sooner. :redspot

[MrBlah]

kurt, do you have your current engine/fuel/spark config posted on your site somewhere?

[NobleForums]

I really found the book by Corky Bell informative and tried to put many of his suggestions into practice. Everyone bashes turbos for always lagging but in his words if you have no turbo aren't you effectively always lagging.


Haha, I love this. :lol

[kpolito99]

kurt, do you have your current engine/fuel/spark config posted on your site somewhere?

I think that everything should be listed on the spec page. If you have a specific question just ask.

The major thing I wish I had done differently was purchase an engine management system with integrated fuel and spark control. I was misinformed while learning about EFI and this feature could be improved in my application.

Haltech F9A fuel control only 500 cc/min RC Engineering injectors
Jacobs Ultra Team w/boost timing control (drops timing while on boost)
Blitz Sequential Boost controller (very good investment for managing/controlling boost level)

[MrBlah]

I'll be using a megasquirt to do everything, they should have the add on code done very soon

and the new add on output board will let you do whatever you want

[kpolito99]

Not sure what you plan on using for a head gasket, but I believe Cometic is somewhere in GA and they make the MLS gaskets that VAC and everyone else sells.

I was shocked to dicover how many thicknesses were available for the M10 in just about any bore size that I wanted. This motor design is approaching 50 years of age!

You can effectively tune your static compression very easily even after making dramatic combustion chamber shape changes as I have done.

I felt a significant increase in NA performance (less lag :rolleyes) just going up a few points in compression. Initially I was using the S14 head gasket which resulted in a CR of 8.19:1 and now I have a theoretically measured CR of 8.5:1.

This made a dramatic change in throttle response combined with the reduction in diameter of the discharge tube between compressor and A/L intercooler. I find that the off idle response is very good.