Ultimate Engine Build-up

[ACS3 CLS]

Some people say I'm carzy, and maybe I am, but anyway, here's a little background on what I am trying to do. First off, I am looking to build a motor with a moderate amount of reliability. This motor should be able to put down somwwhere in the neighborhood of 750+ RWHP with similar TQ numbers. My goal is to have the car somewhat streetable and at the same time and handle the track (1/4 mile and road course). My dream would be to make this car a triple threat ie. 10sec 1/4, 1000hp, and 1.0g on skidpad. I fully understand that compromises must be made to satisfy one aspect of my goal never mind all threeand that is not going to be cheap.

The motor will be torn apart and if need be it will be sleeved. It will be balanced and blueprinted: Forged pistons w/lower CR, rods, Knife edged crank, cams, custom head work, etc., etc, etc. The motor should be bullet-proof. It will then be the beneficiary of some form of forced induction.

Well, given the choices in the above poll, I'm leaning towards the 4.4l out of the 540. I toyed around with te idea of a V12, but it's just too much weight. Not exactly sure on the weight of the weight of this vs. an I6. One major bonus about this choice I think will be the gained handling characteristics, with the weight moved slightly towards the center of the vehicle. Second, would be the initial cost of the motor. I have an idea that a pre vanos motor might be best suited for a stand alone EM system. What are your thoughts? The 4.4l would probably be be bored and stroked to 5.0l +. I have always thought that there is no replacement for displacement. Ive seen a couple blown 540's with stock internals put down over 440hp at the wheels. and blown M5's that put out over 600hp. This leads me to my next problem. Supercharger or Turbo? I tend to lean towrads the supercharger due to the linear power nubers it produces but I'm really not sure. There's no way of modifying the boost on the fly with a supercharger right? The turbo could possibly be easier to tune? But the turbo I'm almost sure would lead me to higher HP and more problems. Also keep in mind that this will probably run through an M5 transmission and diff, with a custom driveshaft.

So in conclusion, this is what I'm leaning towrads. A fully built 4.4l bored and stroked to 5.0l, Supercharged (single or twin, I still don't know), thats able to put down 750+ hp and still impress on the track. So here's some more questions.

What motor given the high HP goals will be most reliable?

Who's the best engine builder?

Given only two choices M5 or 540 engine, which one?

Supercharger or Turbo?

Optimum C/R?

I know that many of these topics are often discussed, but I feel many should be considered on a csae by case basis. And would the engine builder have his own ways of doing this or am I on the right track?

TIA. I would appreciate any and all feedback. And O, I almost forgot to mention, this beast of a motor will be transplanted into my E36. AND AGAIN I'LL STRESS , THE IMPORTANTANCE IS REALIABILITY! I really don't feel like spending even more money, rebuilding a motor after 6 months to 1year.

[dinans3m3]

To hit near the 750rwhp you will need a turbo and it can or has been done on an inline 6. Do a search. No need for a V8.Boost can only be modified via pulleys on a SC (not on a fly)whereas on a turbo its a bit more involved but much easier to tune given your standalone options. If your digging deep into the motor and looking for massive power try throwing cardcounter , highboostingm3 a pm as im sure they may post here anyway.
Good luck

[marc1119]

I think centri supercharging is out...going by your list of criteria..

You will not be able to make the type of Torque you are looking to make, with a boost building form of FI..like a centrifugal supercharging..

[card counter]

2.8

[jrhaile]

2.8


+1980943859407549238839457238234875238 :buttrock

[Chuck Finley]

2.8

:buttrock

[5mall5nail5]

I don't know why you chose the motors you chose. Euro S38B38? Notoriously not as strong as S38B36. M50 non vanos should be up there as well as M52. Why i sthe M62 up there? Why is the M5 4.9 up there?

[nickdrivesm3]

The Euro 3.0 has forged rods and crank. Dunno about the pistons but the rods and crank are ready to go. You would have to turbo it of course, but I'm sure it could handle the power.


Stay away from the V8s, they dont fit in the e36s too well. The last M62 I saw in an e36 had to sit 3 inches to the right to clear the steering column.

[Alphaman]

I don't know why you chose the motors you chose. Euro S38B38? Notoriously not as strong as S38B36. M50 non vanos should be up there as well as M52. Why i sthe M62 up there? Why is the M5 4.9 up there?

The M62 is up there for the same reason I posted on this forum earlier about a possible M62 build up. I have never built a BMW engine but have built more than my share of american iron from mild small blocks all the way up alcohol hemis. The rule of thumb for american v8's is "there is no replacement for displacement" and assuming that BMW engines aren't made in a parellel universe the same should hold true. Example:

3.2L N/A engine built to the nuts will not surpass or equal the power of a 4.4L N/A motor built with the same in mind. Add FI to said builds and the same should hold true. The total weight of an M62 is roughly 477 pounds so it isn't that heavy of an engine either.

I can see where the pre-disposition for an I6 engine is coming from seeing that the majority of R&D and work has been done on these engines because they are the most widely available to the BMW entusiast. That being said, with some time, money and determination the same incredible performance should be seen from an M60 - M62 engine. Just my .02 cents.

[highboostingm3]

What body are you willing to go with? If you are willing to go with an e39 body then I think that would be sick. Yes it is a lot heavier but if you totally gut it and only have two racing seats plus electronics and fuel setup then it can be made much much lighter, would be different and very sick. That way you could do the V8.

I like the idea of using the smaller V8 and boring to 5.0 liters. You would almost have to go turbo to pull your goal whp. Besides you really would need to go twin screw if you wanted to do that power S/C style and that would be a project from hell. A nice twin turbo setup with twin GT30Rs would really do the trick perfectly!

The thing I like about the V8 for this project is that it remains very streetable. The I6 has been done and is a great platform but with a lot less displacement you will deal with a lot of turbo lag to make those numbers. With the V8 those puppies will spool nicely and you will have a fun car for the street, drag and road race! :buttrock

[sausrigging]

He wants to go with the e36..
I also would love to see a gutted e39 with a tt non vanos m62!

[llegos]

i believe BMWandreas has a 1000+HP(could be wrong) S38 in his E30 M3, so that gets my vote.

[DU09]

s38 ftw!

[Juicy Double]

3.6

fixed;)

s38 ftmfw

[ACS3 CLS]

I don't know why you chose the motors you chose. Euro S38B38? Notoriously not as strong as S38B36. M50 non vanos should be up there as well as M52. Why i sthe M62 up there? Why is the M5 4.9 up there?

The reason for chosing most of these motors is just for options, others for pure displacement. I know that most all these motors are very strong, but it really doesn't matter, as I'm planning on making it bullet-proof. The reason for choosing the two V8s' is that the motor will be much more reliable with the power numbers I want to achieve. I would have to think that a 650hp 3.2l engine would be much more strained than a 5.0l V8 making the same 650hp. The M5 is IMO one of the most technologicaly advanced engines to date from BMW, which could be its one major flaw, as I would like to be able to tune it with a standalone EMS. It's already at the displacement I want and the intake setup and head are basically the direction I would have to take the 4.4l.

[ACS3 CLS]

2.8


Are you saying I should contact ICS?

[el bob]

What body are you willing to go with? If you are willing to go with an e39 body then I think that would be sick. Yes it is a lot heavier but if you totally gut it and only have two racing seats plus electronics and fuel setup then it can be made much much lighter, would be different and very sick. That way you could do the V8.

I like the idea of using the smaller V8 and boring to 5.0 liters. You would almost have to go turbo to pull your goal whp. Besides you really would need to go twin screw if you wanted to do that power S/C style and that would be a project from hell. A nice twin turbo setup with twin GT30Rs would really do the trick perfectly!

The thing I like about the V8 for this project is that it remains very streetable. The I6 has been done and is a great platform but with a lot less displacement you will deal with a lot of turbo lag to make those numbers. With the V8 those puppies will spool nicely and you will have a fun car for the street, drag and road race! :buttrock

So Cam when you are switching to a V8 and GT30Rs for your M3?



Cue Triump the Comic Insult Dog voice: I kiiiid I kiiiid...

No, but really :devillook :D

[5mall5nail5]

The reason for chosing most of these motors is just for options, others for pure displacement. I know that most all these motors are very strong, but it really doesn't matter, as I'm planning on making it bullet-proof. The reason for choosing the two V8s' is that the motor will be much more reliable with the power numbers I want to achieve. I would have to think that a 650hp 3.2l engine would be much more strained than a 5.0l V8 making the same 650hp. The M5 is IMO one of the most technologicaly advanced engines to date from BMW, which could be its one major flaw, as I would like to be able to tune it with a standalone EMS. It's already at the displacement I want and the intake setup and head are basically the direction I would have to take the 4.4l.

Actually your thinking can be considered wrong on this. A V8 is not a naturally balanced motor and therefore has more forces against it than an Inline 6 which is naturally balanced. I think if you really want a V8, use an M62 4.4L. The M5 is a 4.9, not a 5.0. The extra displacement is good for the NA cause of things, but a 4.4L on boost will be exponentially cheaper when if it breaks. It'd be a bitch to fit biturbo in a BMW chassis at the manifolds and most people complain about remote mount turbos without ever trying. Superchargers are not worth the money IMHO and so what do you really want to do? A 650whp inline 6 is not a hard thing to do especially since you're building the motor. Do almost any one of the M/S50/52's and you'd be fine.

[uberhammer]

I will have over 500 hp soon:D From a 4.4l V8 with only a Vortech Supercharger.

[highboostingm3]

So Cam when you are switching to a V8 and GT30Rs for your M3?


Cue Triump the Comic Insult Dog voice: I kiiiid I kiiiid...

No, but really :devillook :D
:stickoutt I researched doing an s38 and doing a v8 before I went with the basic m50. Reasons why I changed my mind:
1) Cost
2) Space

The e36 unfortunately is so damn tight even with the basic I-6 motors that my decision was made easy. That is why I mentioned that if he did go with an e39 body then he would have enough room. An e30 and he'd be fine too.

If I was going to do a V8 I'd buy an older e39 and do that. But since I am married with a baby the car collection idea is far down the priority list.

[MrBlonde]

You're on the wrong track withyour thinking. If you want to build a BMW engine then you want to be intimate with the BMW Motorsports division. There are various series of race components for *some* engines which are totally different to the stock parts.

The "S" engines have motorsports parts. Those are the ones to go for. Obviously the S38 has the largest displacement and a four valve head. Sounds like good eatin' to me. The S50B32 is also a cracker (that's what I use in my M Coupe). The S14 is a top engine as well but is down there at 2.3-2.5 litres.

If you know pushrod V8s .. why not build a Chevelle?

[uberhammer]

'If you know pushrod V8s .. why not build a Chevelle?"

Your right American car companies don't use over head cams.

Look at the Ford mustang 5.4l 32valve supercharged from the factory

<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[ACS3 CLS]

The M5 is a 4.9, not a 5.0.

For the record, I am fully aware that the S62 is 4.9l. Also, pardon my ignorance, but could you explain what a "naturaly balanced" motor is.

So, given the two V8's, the M62 and the S62, would I be better off staying with the one built by the Motorsports division? Or does all this really matter if I'm going to tear the motor apart?

[Alphaman]

You're on the wrong track withyour thinking. If you want to build a BMW engine then you want to be intimate with the BMW Motorsports division. There are various series of race components for *some* engines which are totally different to the stock parts.

The "S" engines have motorsports parts. Those are the ones to go for. Obviously the S38 has the largest displacement and a four valve head. Sounds like good eatin' to me. The S50B32 is also a cracker (that's what I use in my M Coupe). The S14 is a top engine as well but is down there at 2.3-2.5 litres.

If you know pushrod V8s .. why not build a Chevelle?

That may be why he wants to build a Bimmer V8

[xatlas0]

In terms of cost, I have seen about 50k thrown at a M62 and you end up with about 500rwhp. (P&P, cams, displacement bump to 5.3L, forged everything, supercharged)

Comparatively, a built S38 has been shown to make big numbers, as well as a build M50, S50, S14. Nobody has taken a S62 and run with it because long blocks are about 15k each.

While there is no replacement for displacement, there is also no replacement for R&D. The easiest way, if you are set on the M62, would be to source a pair of turbo manifolds from the old Bentlys. Those used twin-turboed M62s. That will get you to the power you want. I'd be more concerned ith the driveline. Your trans will probably go south rather quickly, as people have been munching synchros with stock power. The diff might be able to take it, as a blown diff isn't a very common occurance.

[ACS3 CLS]

In terms of cost, I have seen about 50k thrown at a M62 and you end up with about 500rwhp. (P&P, cams, displacement bump to 5.3L, forged everything, supercharged)

Comparatively, a built S38 has been shown to make big numbers, as well as a build M50, S50, S14. Nobody has taken a S62 and run with it because long blocks are about 15k each.

While there is no replacement for displacement, there is also no replacement for R&D. The easiest way, if you are set on the M62, would be to source a pair of turbo manifolds from the old Bentlys. Those used twin-turboed M62s. That will get you to the power you want. I'd be more concerned ith the driveline. Your trans will probably go south rather quickly, as people have been munching synchros with stock power. The diff might be able to take it, as a blown diff isn't a very common occurance.


With that said, I'm even more confused on what to do. Time is not really an issue so I guess I have plenty of time to decide, but where do I go from here? So many people, so many different opinions. I did however just finish watching some of the videos from ICS. VERY IMPRESSED! Especially the 1000+ hp M3. The few things I would be concerned about would be: DRIVEABILITY, and RELIABILITY. As I stated before, I would like the car to be trackable as well. When tires break free at 100 mph+, that does not make for a good/safe track car, right? It seems at this point that an S52 might be the way to go, matted to a Euro 6-speed and a custom diff., given the cost and fitment issues of a V8. If I could only find someone that would be willing to take on such a task of swapping a V8 with FI.

[Alphaman]

Anyone that dumps $50k in an engine and only gets 500 whp should ask for his money back. Especially seeing that it has been bored (and stroked?) to 5.3L AND supercharged. I understand that these engines aren't as easy to work on as an american V8 but still. 1.25 hp per cubic inch is a very realistic and fairly simple goal for any N/A engine. 5.3L = 323 ci * 1.25 = 404hp at the crank. Going as high as 1.5:1 hp per CI on an N/A engine while remaining streetable can be done with some monies invested and that would be about 484 - 500 HP at the crank.

Now let's throw in some FI, supercharged preferred, due to the higher compression N/A build and run say 5 - 7 lbs. of boost and your around 600 - 625hp at the crank. Now we aren't at the 750 whp the OP is wanting but a build like this in theory would at least be a starting point and worth looking at. Just my .02 cents.

[DIRT11]

With that said, I'm even more confused on what to do. Time is not really an issue so I guess I have plenty of time to decide, but where do I go from here? So many people, so many different opinions. I did however just finish watching some of the videos from ICS. VERY IMPRESSED! Especially the 1000+ hp M3. The few things I would be concerned about would be: DRIVEABILITY, and RELIABILITY. As I stated before, I would like the car to be trackable as well. When tires break free at 100 mph+, that does not make for a good/safe track car, right? It seems at this point that an S52 might be the way to go, matted to a Euro 6-speed and a custom diff., given the cost and fitment issues of a V8. If I could only find someone that would be willing to take on such a task of swapping a V8 with FI.
It would be a really tight fit in an E36 to fit a built M62 or S62 engine but , I believe Rickard Andersson in Sweden built a 4.6 Litre 680HP and 8120NM M62 ,I have a picture of the engine but too large a file for the forum, he fit it into an E30 i think,so it can be done it justs takes $$$$.... My 540i should be around 500WHP , in theory if we get 14 PSI boost I will get 543WHP but , that is in theory,I now get 440WHP at 7psi boost...Talk to George at ICS I am sure he would love to build you a monster , he has my car now....BTW I have a lot less than 50K in the engine and actually I have a lot less than 50k in the whole system(Suspesion , Brakes , Headers , Exhaust , Race Cats , new fuel system , InterCooler , ETC..) excluding the price of the car of course...Inline 6 much easier I would think......

[Alphaman]

It would be a really tight fit in an E36 to fit a built M62 or S62 engine but , I believe Rickard Andersson in Sweden built a 4.6 Litre 680HP and 8120NM M62 ,I have a picture of the engine but too large a file for the forum, he fit it into an E30 i think,so it can be done it justs takes $$$$.... My 540i should be around 500WHP , in theory if we get 14 PSI boost I will get 543WHP but , that is in theory,I now get 440WHP at 7psi boost...Talk to George at ICS I am sure he would love to build you a monster , he has my car now....BTW I have a lot less than 50K in the engine and actually I have a lot less than 50k in the whole system(Suspesion , Brakes , Headers , Exhaust , Race Cats , new fuel system , InterCooler , ETC..) excluding the price of the car of course...Inline 6 much easier I would think......

Well thank you for this post as you have solidified my earlier post. 440 whp w/ stock internals @ 7psi boost. Now rebuild motor bore and stroke to 5'ish liters, new internals, cams, head work, etc.. PLUS 7psi boost and voila 600+ hp. Again it's just a matter of opinion and preference at this point, at least I would think.

[MrBlonde]

'If you know pushrod V8s .. why not build a Chevelle?"

Your right American car companies don't use over head cams.

Look at the Ford mustang 5.4l 32valve supercharged from the factory

Those are your words not mine.

[Motorsports14]

3.2 US is no good for turbo especially for 750hp.... b/c aluminum block

[Tuff Guy]

ls1

[5mall5nail5]

A naturally balanced motor is one that has a cylinder of the same mass in an opposite direction as any other cylinder given a point in time in combustion sequence. An inline 6 motor has a cylinder going down and the next cylinder going 180 degrees from that. A V motor will never be balanced because of the direction of rotation. That direction of rotation compromises ultimate integrity of motor balance. Yes, V8s are strong, we know they make huge power in domestics, but in theory, and practice, an inline motor will always be stronger with the same type of development, machining, and measurement.

Flat 4, inline motors, and flat 6 motors are all naturally balanced engines. V6, V8, V10, etc, are not.

Whats the point? Why stress a V8 more than its designed for? An inline 6 we can get away with because the stress on all of the components is not asking the motor to do something it's physically incapable of doing, therefore less development and strengthening is necessary. Have you seen what it takes to make a RELIABLE high horsepower BMW V8? Talk about blueprinting EVERYTHING, massing everything, cryogenic freezing... yeah... i'll skip that and chose an inline 6 :)

I guess my point is, if you want a high horsepower car with large displacement, BMW is the wrong car. Put an LS1 in it. If you want to have a high horsepower car with less displacement, BMW is the way to go. In a street car, I am not impressed when a guy rolls up in a 5.7L V8 with 700hp from a blower. When a 2.5 or 2.8L inline 6 rolls up with the same power, now we're talking :)

[ACS3 CLS]

Maybe I'm a little slow, but I'm still having an issue fully understanding this "balanced" thing. Is this why you see a ton of high hp Supras and Skylines, and not many 3000gt's, 300zx's or 350z's?

Alright, I've been thinking more and more about this. My best bet seems to be the I6 I guess. But now that I've chosen to go with the 6 instead of the 8, wich I6 is the best to build up. Also, is it possible to have a 3.2 bored and/or stroked to 3.5+. What type of tolerances are there? I'm thinking of the 3.0 or 3.2 as the parts I assume would be much more readily available for it vs. the 3.6 or 3.8 out of the E34 m5. And if I was to sleeve the motor would it really matter wich engine I choose, it should be bullet-proof right?

So, I go back to my original post in the thread. Wich engine will make the Ultimate Engine Build Up? Forget the poll at this point. Just give me your opinion.

[toddman35]

3.2 US is no good for turbo especially for 750hp.... b/c aluminum block


The only aluminum block in the m50-s52 family in the US was the M52 block found in some z3s.

[morerevsm3]

hands down S38B36 is best engine option for your stated requirements

with naturally ballance issue, a V6 can be balanced only for small rev range, usually road car engines are designed to run smooth at idle to mid range rpm, race V6 engines usually have flat plane cranks designed to run smoothly in 5500 - 8000rpm rang, at the expense of vibration down low, on the other hand a L6 configuration is smooth throughout the rev range, but suffers from sizing constraints, need long hood etc

[5mall5nail5]

Maybe I'm a little slow, but I'm still having an issue fully understanding this "balanced" thing. Is this why you see a ton of high hp Supras and Skylines, and not many 3000gt's, 300zx's or 350z's?

Alright, I've been thinking more and more about this. My best bet seems to be the I6 I guess. But now that I've chosen to go with the 6 instead of the 8, wich I6 is the best to build up. Also, is it possible to have a 3.2 bored and/or stroked to 3.5+. What type of tolerances are there? I'm thinking of the 3.0 or 3.2 as the parts I assume would be much more readily available for it vs. the 3.6 or 3.8 out of the E34 m5. And if I was to sleeve the motor would it really matter wich engine I choose, it should be bullet-proof right?

So, I go back to my original post in the thread. Wich engine will make the Ultimate Engine Build Up? Forget the poll at this point. Just give me your opinion.

You have to realize. All of these motors, you will wither bore and stroke, or turbo... but not both. A 3.2L can go to 3.5L NA, but the cylinder walls are QUITE thin and most people figure ~50k miles before the give up but only a few 3.5L builds have been done.

Best bet is to either do an M52 which has been proven over 600 hp or an M50 non vanos which I am personally fond of.

[328iJunkie]

The only aluminum block in the m50-s52 family in the US was the M52 block found in some z3s.

+1..... Cast iron block and alum head... thats why the thing is so heavy...

[Robstah]

You have to realize. All of these motors, you will wither bore and stroke, or turbo... but not both. A 3.2L can go to 3.5L NA, but the cylinder walls are QUITE thin and most people figure ~50k miles before the give up but only a few 3.5L builds have been done.

Best bet is to either do an M52 which has been proven over 600 hp or an M50 non vanos which I am personally fond of.

Square engines (M52 @ 84mm bore and 84mm stroke) are fun.

[ACS3 CLS]

I'm no engine builder, but if I was to bore the cylinders and then have them sleeved, wouldn't that strengthen the walls enough to handle high boost.

[Mr.M3]

LS1 swap will give you about 400hp/tq to the wheels and be NA. Throw a twin screw on that (or turbo) and you should be able to hit the numbers you're looking for and still have a reliable engine, not to mention the LS1 is lighter too ;)

I'll probably get flamed but oh well :)

[Bmwandreas]

S38!!!!!

[MrBlonde]

LS1 swap will give you about 400hp/tq to the wheels and be NA. Throw a twin screw on that (or turbo) and you should be able to hit the numbers you're looking for and still have a reliable engine, not to mention the LS1 is lighter too ;)

I'll probably get flamed but oh well :)
Totally agree. Buy an LS1 and put any supercharger you like on it. Rock on you bad thing.

[techno550]

Some people say I'm carzy, and maybe I am, but anyway, here's a little background on what I am trying to do. First off, I am looking to build a motor with a moderate amount of reliability. This motor should be able to put down somwwhere in the neighborhood of 750+ RWHP with similar TQ numbers. My goal is to have the car somewhat streetable and at the same time and handle the track (1/4 mile and road course). My dream would be to make this car a triple threat ie. 10sec 1/4, 1000hp, and 1.0g on skidpad. I fully understand that compromises must be made to satisfy one aspect of my goal never mind all threeand that is not going to be cheap.

The skidpad bit will be easy. 1G is nothing. I see over 1G laterally on street tires.
Making a high powered car that is at home on the track will be difficult though. You will need to make a system that isn't a peaky dyno queen/drag car.


M50 non vanos should be up there as well as M52. Why i sthe M62 up there? Why is the M5 4.9 up there?
M50 and M50TU are probably not great candidates for 750+ hp. The 4.9L M5 motor would be a good candidate though.


I would have to think that a 650hp 3.2l engine would be much more strained than a 5.0l V8 making the same 650hp. The M5 is IMO one of the most technologicaly advanced engines to date from BMW, which could be its one major flaw, as I would like to be able to tune it with a standalone EMS. It's already at the displacement I want and the intake setup and head are basically the direction I would have to take the 4.4l.
you just need the right standalone. Motec or EFI. Skip the consumer grade BS ad make some real power... reliably. The M5 motor is a great choice, and wouldn't need much internal work (if any). less than 10 psi should get you darn close to your 750 goal.


Actually your thinking can be considered wrong on this. A V8 is not a naturally balanced motor and therefore has more forces against it than an Inline 6 which is naturally balanced. I think if you really want a V8, use an M62 4.4L. The M5 is a 4.9, not a 5.0. The extra displacement is good for the NA cause of things, but a 4.4L on boost will be exponentially cheaper when if it breaks. It'd be a bitch to fit biturbo in a BMW chassis at the manifolds and most people complain about remote mount turbos without ever trying. Superchargers are not worth the money IMHO and so what do you really want to do? A 650whp inline 6 is not a hard thing to do especially since you're building the motor. Do almost any one of the M/S50/52's and you'd be fine.
A twin screw SC would be one option for the V8. A pair of turbos could also be relatively easily made to fit.

As for the balance side of things, why would it not being naturally balanced affect anything?



In terms of cost, I have seen about 50k thrown at a M62 and you end up with about 500rwhp. (P&P, cams, displacement bump to 5.3L, forged everything, supercharged)

Comparatively, a built S38 has been shown to make big numbers, as well as a build M50, S50, S14. Nobody has taken a S62 and run with it because long blocks are about 15k each.

While there is no replacement for displacement, there is also no replacement for R&D. The easiest way, if you are set on the M62, would be to source a pair of turbo manifolds from the old Bentlys. Those used twin-turboed M62s. That will get you to the power you want. I'd be more concerned ith the driveline. Your trans will probably go south rather quickly, as people have been munching synchros with stock power. The diff might be able to take it, as a blown diff isn't a very common occurance.
while they would be some lovely cosworth engineered parts, they may not actually fit in the car.I can't imagine what a Cosworth engineered Bentley part would cost either. :help It also only made like 350 hp.
I'd say you're probably better off starting from scratch.


The few things I would be concerned about would be: DRIVEABILITY, and RELIABILITY. As I stated before, I would like the car to be trackable as well. When tires break free at 100 mph+, that does not make for a good/safe track car, right? It seems at this point that an S52 might be the way to go, matted to a Euro 6-speed and a custom diff., given the cost and fitment issues of a V8. If I could only find someone that would be willing to take on such a task of swapping a V8 with FI.
If anything, you'd want more displacement to make it trackable. You want to spool the turbos as quickly as possible, that or have excellent control over HOW boost comes on. (which can be done with advanced wastegate control schemes.)


3.2 US is no good for turbo especially for 750hp.... b/c aluminum block
:confused No. It's cast iron, not AL

ls1
That'd work. That or a LS7. Stock LS7 + boost should get you to your goal easily. A built LS1 + boost would probably be the least expensive solution, and the LS7 + boost next in line cost wise.


A naturally balanced motor is one that has a cylinder of the same mass in an opposite direction as any other cylinder given a point in time in combustion sequence. An inline 6 motor has a cylinder going down and the next cylinder going 180 degrees from that. A V motor will never be balanced because of the direction of rotation. That direction of rotation compromises ultimate integrity of motor balance. Yes, V8s are strong, we know they make huge power in domestics, but in theory, and practice, an inline motor will always be stronger with the same type of development, machining, and measurement.

Flat 4, inline motors, and flat 6 motors are all naturally balanced engines. V6, V8, V10, etc, are not.

Whats the point? Why stress a V8 more than its designed for? An inline 6 we can get away with because the stress on all of the components is not asking the motor to do something it's physically incapable of doing, therefore less development and strengthening is necessary. Have you seen what it takes to make a RELIABLE high horsepower BMW V8? Talk about blueprinting EVERYTHING, massing everything, cryogenic freezing... yeah... i'll skip that and chose an inline 6 :)

I guess my point is, if you want a high horsepower car with large displacement, BMW is the wrong car. Put an LS1 in it. If you want to have a high horsepower car with less displacement, BMW is the way to go. In a street car, I am not impressed when a guy rolls up in a 5.7L V8 with 700hp from a blower. When a 2.5 or 2.8L inline 6 rolls up with the same power, now we're talking :)
Where to start...
1. V motors can be balanced. V12.
2.Direction of rotation has no effect.
3. Not all inline motors are naturally balanced. I3, I4, I5 are all *not* balanced.
4. The stresses are a function of RPM's. A cross plane 90degree V8 is pretty darn smooth too.
5. the Inline 6 has the disadvantage of having a massively long crank, and thus a very low resonant frequency.
6. The inline 6 does NOT have a cylinder 180 degrees out of phase from it. It has 2 banks of 3 cylinder engines, each cylinder in the bank 120 degrees apart. Bank 1 and bank 2 are mirrored across the centerline of the crank. The *other* bank has the matched piston 360 degrees out of phase. (meaning the pistons move WITH each other, but are on a different point in the combustion process.) So the engine is balanced end to end. The mirroring eliminates the end to end vibration that would otherwise be seen.
7. to make reliable power in an I6, you must blueprint and balance everything too.
8. the only forces opposing the piston in the I6 are the counterbalances.

... I'll just stop there for now. :nono


hands down S38B36 is best engine option for your stated requirements

with naturally ballance issue, a V6 can be balanced only for small rev range, usually road car engines are designed to run smooth at idle to mid range rpm, race V6 engines usually have flat plane cranks designed to run smoothly in 5500 - 8000rpm rang, at the expense of vibration down low, on the other hand a L6 configuration is smooth throughout the rev range, but suffers from sizing constraints, need long hood etc
V6 engines do NOT have flate plane cranks.



Square engines (M52 @ 84mm bore and 84mm stroke) are fun.
Oversquare and rev happy is more fun.


I'm no engine builder, but if I was to bore the cylinders and then have them sleeved, wouldn't that strengthen the walls enough to handle high boost.
I don't think the concern is only for the cylinder bore. The stock block isn't sleeved. It is an aluminum block though, so sleeving it will be difficult. Perhaps you can bore it slightly and then sleeve it dropping the displacement. :dunno
My main concern would be with block flex and distortion. If things flex too much, clearances get out of wack and that breaks things.


LS1 swap will give you about 400hp/tq to the wheels and be NA. Throw a twin screw on that (or turbo) and you should be able to hit the numbers you're looking for and still have a reliable engine, not to mention the LS1 is lighter too ;)

I'll probably get flamed but oh well :)
I agree. lots of displacement will make this task much easier and more drivable.

[DIRT11]

Totally agree. Buy an LS1 and put any supercharger you like on it. Rock on you bad thing.

Like This ?? :D :( :( :( :( :(

[morerevsm3]

or this...

[highboostingm3]

The 4.9L M5 motor would be a good candidate though. The M5 motor is a great choice, and wouldn't need much internal work (if any). less than 10 psi should get you darn close to your 750 goal. A pair of turbos could also be relatively easily made to fit.

As for the balance side of things, why would it not being naturally balanced affect anything? If anything, you'd want more displacement to make it trackable. You want to spool the turbos as quickly as possible, that or have excellent control over HOW boost comes on. (which can be done with advanced wastegate control schemes.)

lots of displacement will make this task much easier and more drivable.
Hmmmmm so it looks like techno550 agrees with me on some things. :devillook Noice! :buttrock

I said 4.4 instead of 4.9 only due to cost and tuning, but f he goes EFI then 4.9 all the way!

[5mall5nail5]

Where to start...
1. V motors can be balanced. V12.
2.Direction of rotation has no effect.
3. Not all inline motors are naturally balanced. I3, I4, I5 are all *not* balanced.
4. The stresses are a function of RPM's. A cross plane 90degree V8 is pretty darn smooth too.
5. the Inline 6 has the disadvantage of having a massively long crank, and thus a very low resonant frequency.
6. The inline 6 does NOT have a cylinder 180 degrees out of phase from it. It has 2 banks of 3 cylinder engines, each cylinder in the bank 120 degrees apart. Bank 1 and bank 2 are mirrored across the centerline of the crank. The *other* bank has the matched piston 360 degrees out of phase. (meaning the pistons move WITH each other, but are on a different point in the combustion process.) So the engine is balanced end to end. The mirroring eliminates the end to end vibration that would otherwise be seen.
7. to make reliable power in an I6, you must blueprint and balance everything too.
8. the only forces opposing the piston in the I6 are the counterbalances.

... I'll just stop there for now. :nono



I am not talking about a motors next firing event being 180 or 120 degrees, I am takling about the direction of each piston relative to one another is 180 degrees up and down. A V6, V8, V10 are anywhere from 60 - 110 degree V's... thats like throwing your fits from side to side and telling me your body wont twist.

[techno550]

I am not talking about a motors next firing event being 180 or 120 degrees,
:rolleyes Neither was I.

I am takling about the direction of each piston relative to one another is 180 degrees up and down.
No.

A V6, V8, V10 are anywhere from 60 - 110 degree V's... thats like throwing your fits from side to side and telling me your body wont twist.
:confused

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, but you obviously have no clue what you are talking about. Reread your post as well as my corrections and then go consult a book on the subject.

I'll try explaining it one last time for the sake of your education. On an inline 6, cylinders 1 and 6 move TOGETHER. As do 2 and 5, and of course 3 and 4.
Hence the firing order 1, 5, 3, 6, 2, 4. (first pair, second pair, third pair, first pair, second pair, third pair)
Again, they move up and down together. There is NOTHING 180 degrees out on an inline 6.

V8's with flat plane cranks have perfect end to end balance. 2nd order is significant, but still only sqrt(2) times that of an inline 4.
V10's have end to end vibration, but not bank to bank.
V12's are another "perfect" configuration, being essentially two inline 6's.

[5mall5nail5]

:rolleyes Neither was I.

No.

:confused

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, but you obviously have no clue what you are talking about. Reread your post as well as my corrections and then go consult a book on the subject.

I'll try explaining it one last time for the sake of your education. On an inline 6, cylinders 1 and 6 move TOGETHER. As do 2 and 5, and of course 3 and 4.
Hence the firing order 1, 5, 3, 6, 2, 4. (first pair, second pair, third pair, first pair, second pair, third pair)
Again, they move up and down together. There is NOTHING 180 degrees out on an inline 6.

V8's with flat plane cranks have perfect end to end balance. 2nd order is significant, but still only sqrt(2) times that of an inline 4.
V10's have end to end vibration, but not bank to bank.
V12's are another "perfect" configuration, being essentially two inline 6's.


Techno you are seriously perhaps the most frustrating person I have ever met online. Let me explain to you what YOU'RE failing to understand. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT A CYLINDER BEING TDC and another at "bottom dead center". I am merely talking about the 1st cylinder being 180 degrees parallel to the next cylinder, each cylinder after that. THIS IS WHAT MAKES IT AN "INLINE" 6. THAT is what balances the motor naturally. This really isn't difficult and you must want to just look like you are proving people wrong and you don't even realize what the hell you're responding to. I've assembled/disassembled M50s/M20s several times - what, did you think I didn't notice that 1 & 6 are TDC at the same time?! Ugh - you frustrate me.

Here is a visual:

"|" is 180 degrees relative to "|" wow.

[highboostingm3]

:redspot

[techno550]

Techno you are seriously perhaps the most frustrating person I have ever met online. Let me explain to you what YOU'RE failing to understand. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT A CYLINDER BEING TDC and another at "bottom dead center". I am merely talking about the 1st cylinder being 180 degrees parallel to the next cylinder, each cylinder after that. THIS IS WHAT MAKES IT AN "INLINE" 6. THAT is what balances the motor naturally. This really isn't difficult and you must want to just look like you are proving people wrong and you don't even realize what the hell you're responding to. I've assembled/disassembled M50s/M20s several times - what, did you think I didn't notice that 1 & 6 are TDC at the same time?! Ugh - you frustrate me.

Here is a visual:

"|" is 180 degrees relative to "|" wow.

Wow, stupid is still arguing? Trying to dig yourself out of your hole?

I now think I "see" what you "mean" by 180 degrees. Perhaps the most retarded way of explaining it I've ever heard, but whatever. Basically you just continue to come across as someone who has no undrestanding of engine harmonics.

Moving on.... an inline motor isn't necessarily naturally balanced. Even the I6 wouldn't be just from having 6 cylinders arranged in a line. If you took two I3's and set them end to end, it would't be. If you put cylinders 180 degrees out from each other, it wouldn't be.

For reference, I tore it apart not for getting one little thing wrong. You didn't get "something" wrong, you got "everything" wrong.

Let me quote it and tear it apart piece by piece for you...


A naturally balanced motor is one that has a cylinder of the same mass in an opposite direction as any other cylinder given a point in time in combustion sequence.
same mass in an opposite direction as *any other* cylinder? Sounds like you are trying to say *one cylinder going one way, another cylinder going the opposite direction*, no?


An inline 6 motor has a cylinder going down and the next cylinder going 180 degrees from that.
cylinder going "down" and next cylinder going "180 degrees from that"? again, does this really sound like you are trying to say "they are all in a line"? or does it sound like you are trying to say the forces are opposed by another cylinder moving in the opposite direction?


A V motor will never be balanced because of the direction of rotation.
direction of rotation? put the pipe down....
direction of rotation is inconsequential.
There are plenty of balanced V motor configurations.


That direction of rotation compromises ultimate integrity of motor balance.
Again, wtf are you smoking. direction of rotation? compromises ultimate integrity of motor balance? talk out your ass much?


Yes, V8s are strong, we know they make huge power in domestics, but in theory, and practice, an inline motor will always be stronger with the same type of development, machining, and measurement.
If you want a "strong" motor, the most powerful, i.e. most thermally efficient will be an inline 4. But then if you want smooth, then its cylinder count you are after. Low displacement V12 FTW.
In theory, it is down to the design of the motor. an inline versus a V will be "relatively equal" given the same amount of development, machining, etc... This is why you still see I4's, V6's, V8's, V12's, etc... in LMP and GT racing. If there were "one perfect configuration", everyone would be using it.


Flat 4, inline motors, and flat 6 motors are all naturally balanced engines. V6, V8, V10, etc, are not.
Flat motors of even numbers of cylinders are balanced. Inline 6's are balanced. Inline 4's are balanced in 1st order, but have a massive 2nd order.
A V8 with a flat plane crank is as balanced as an inline 4. (actually, a V8 with a flat plane that is "essentially" 2 I4's, won't have double the 2nd order of an I4. It'll have root 2 of the inline 4's 2nd order.)

[ACS3 CLS]

It seems to me that again I'm even more confused. Domestic engine in BMW FTL!! JMO, nothing against any domestics, but that just wouldn't do it for me.

What are the advantages to going with the E34 M5 3.6 vs the E34 M5 3.8?

Without sleeving the block, so it doesn't flex, what type of boost can be handled?

What block is best for a high HP high BOOST application?

The whole idea of this build up is to have a motor that makes high HP with somewhat of a linear power curve. I'm only assuming that the motor will have to be able to handle high boost (18+ ?) to make the numbers I want.

[MrBlonde]

Information out the window. This way to chest beating.

[5mall5nail5]

Wow, stupid is still arguing? Trying to dig yourself out of your hole?

I now think I "see" what you "mean" by 180 degrees. Perhaps the most retarded way of explaining it I've ever heard, but whatever. Basically you just continue to come across as someone who has no undrestanding of engine harmonics.

Moving on.... an inline motor isn't necessarily naturally balanced. Even the I6 wouldn't be just from having 6 cylinders arranged in a line. If you took two I3's and set them end to end, it would't be. If you put cylinders 180 degrees out from each other, it wouldn't be.

For reference, I tore it apart not for getting one little thing wrong. You didn't get "something" wrong, you got "everything" wrong.

Let me quote it and tear it apart piece by piece for you...


same mass in an opposite direction as *any other* cylinder? Sounds like you are trying to say *one cylinder going one way, another cylinder going the opposite direction*, no?


cylinder going "down" and next cylinder going "180 degrees from that"? again, does this really sound like you are trying to say "they are all in a line"? or does it sound like you are trying to say the forces are opposed by another cylinder moving in the opposite direction?


direction of rotation? put the pipe down....
direction of rotation is inconsequential.
There are plenty of balanced V motor configurations.


Again, wtf are you smoking. direction of rotation? compromises ultimate integrity of motor balance? talk out your ass much?


If you want a "strong" motor, the most powerful, i.e. most thermally efficient will be an inline 4. But then if you want smooth, then its cylinder count you are after. Low displacement V12 FTW.
In theory, it is down to the design of the motor. an inline versus a V will be "relatively equal" given the same amount of development, machining, etc... This is why you still see I4's, V6's, V8's, V12's, etc... in LMP and GT racing. If there were "one perfect configuration", everyone would be using it.


Flat motors of even numbers of cylinders are balanced. Inline 6's are balanced. Inline 4's are balanced in 1st order, but have a massive 2nd order.
A V8 with a flat plane crank is as balanced as an inline 4. (actually, a V8 with a flat plane that is "essentially" 2 I4's, won't have double the 2nd order of an I4. It'll have root 2 of the inline 4's 2nd order.)

I am not even going to reply to your ramblings. The simple fact of the matter is that any inline 6 is going to have WAY less reciprocating mass than any V combo. Plain and simple. The more reciprocating mass, the more tendancy is fought keeping it held inside and thus the stronger the components need to be. Plain and freaking simple. I didn't say a V8 or 10 won't make power, that'd be a stupid thing to say. I said for all practical purposes, an inline 6 is easiest to build for durability and high horsepower. If this weren't the case, I am sure we'd see tons and tons of V6 and V8's ruling the horsepower numbers. The fact of the matter is there is only a fraction of V8s out there in comparison to the many, many, many inline 6 motors making insane horsepower. But yeah hey ramble all you want - I won't lose sleep because you can't read. I'll also enjoy not having VANOS.

[ACS3 CLS]

It seems to me that again I'm even more confused. Domestic engine in BMW FTL!! JMO, nothing against any domestics, but that just wouldn't do it for me.

What are the advantages to going with the E34 M5 3.6 vs the E34 M5 3.8?

Without sleeving the block, so it doesn't flex, what type of boost can be handled?

What block is best for a high HP high BOOST application?

The whole idea of this build up is to have a motor that makes high HP with somewhat of a linear power curve. I'm only assuming that the motor will have to be able to handle high boost (18+ ?) to make the numbers I want.


ENOUGH, ENOUGH, ENOUGH! Let's get back on topic. Everyone play nice. Please READ MY PREVIOUS POST. Thank you.

[DIRT11]

It seems to me that again I'm even more confused. Domestic engine in BMW FTL!! JMO, nothing against any domestics, but that just wouldn't do it for me.

What are the advantages to going with the E34 M5 3.6 vs the E34 M5 3.8?

Without sleeving the block, so it doesn't flex, what type of boost can be handled?

What block is best for a high HP high BOOST application?

The whole idea of this build up is to have a motor that makes high HP with somewhat of a linear power curve. I'm only assuming that the motor will have to be able to handle high boost (18+ ?) to make the numbers I want.

I would start with the suggestion from BMWandreas S38 . He has no reason to steer you wrong and he does have one of the fastest recorded street legal BMW's in the world consistently , not to mention the inovative parts for the car world he and his brother design and build...Just my .02 worth...A V8 would be expensive and complicated to fit in the E36 even if it could be done and if you still want a V8 call Sean at Discovery-Automotive for they have built some of the Badest( WORD ? ) M5's around consistently.If you have the $$$$ call George at ICS and I am sure he would be able to hook that E36 up for you , oh yeah you need $$$$ to deal with Discovery-Automotive also... Lots of Speed , Lots of HP cost lots of $$$$$ no matter what anyone tells you if you do it properly and safely....Good Luck...:)

[techno550]

I am not even going to reply to your ramblings. The simple fact of the matter is that any inline 6 is going to have WAY less reciprocating mass than any V combo. Plain and simple.
Wrong. there are plenty of inline 6's that have more reciprocating mass than a large number of V6's or V8's. Though I don't see why you would even bother to mention internal component weight here.

Seems like you are still very confused. That or you don't know what reciprocating mass means. Or both.


The more reciprocating mass, the more tendancy is fought keeping it held inside and thus the stronger the components need to be. Plain and freaking simple.
Ok. true enough. But WTF does this have to do with anything on this topic? I think you are once again scratching the surface of something you don't actually understand.


I didn't say a V8 or 10 won't make power, that'd be a stupid thing to say.
I never said you said that. I was correcting your misinformation regarding engine harmonics and balance.


I said for all practical purposes, an inline 6 is easiest to build for durability and high horsepower. If this weren't the case, I am sure we'd see tons and tons of V6 and V8's ruling the horsepower numbers. The fact of the matter is there is only a fraction of V8s out there in comparison to the many, many, many inline 6 motors making insane horsepower.
we do see tons of V8's and the likes ruling the HP numbers. see: top fuel dragster. Nothing really says "insane power" quite like an 8000 hp supercharged V8.


But yeah hey ramble all you want - I won't lose sleep because you can't read.
I can read, can you? Point out one thing I've "misread" here. Now point out one correct statement you've made... hmm...


I'll also enjoy not having VANOS.
It's difficult to understand what you are missing when you don't understand...


It seems to me that again I'm even more confused. Domestic engine in BMW FTL!! JMO, nothing against any domestics, but that just wouldn't do it for me.

What are the advantages to going with the E34 M5 3.6 vs the E34 M5 3.8?

Without sleeving the block, so it doesn't flex, what type of boost can be handled?

What block is best for a high HP high BOOST application?

The whole idea of this build up is to have a motor that makes high HP with somewhat of a linear power curve. I'm only assuming that the motor will have to be able to handle high boost (18+ ?) to make the numbers I want.
The 3.6 and 3.8 share the same block. The 3.8 has more bore and stroke. So longer throw and thinner cylinder walls.
The 3.6 has a 93.4mm bore with an 86mm stroke, and a 10.0:1 CR. the 3.8 has a 96.4mm bore and 90mm stroke. with the increase in bore the 3.8 is down to 5.4mm of actual meat between cylinders. For that reason I'd probably prefer a 3.6. Less likely to have cooling issues and/or cylinder sealing issues.

The V8 with its shorter and stiffer crank would also be an excellent candidate for a good amount of pressure. The added displacement and extra cylinders will also make the task that much easier.

[5mall5nail5]

Wrong. there are plenty of inline 6's that have more reciprocating mass than a large number of V6's or V8's. Though I don't see why you would even bother to mention internal component weight here.

Seems like you are still very confused. That or you don't know what reciprocating mass means. Or both.


Ok. true enough. But WTF does this have to do with anything on this topic? I think you are once again scratching the surface of something you don't actually understand.


I never said you said that. I was correcting your misinformation regarding engine harmonics and balance.


we do see tons of V8's and the likes ruling the HP numbers. see: top fuel dragster. Nothing really says "insane power" quite like an 8000 hp supercharged V8.


I can read, can you? Point out one thing I've "misread" here. Now point out one correct statement you've made... hmm...


It's difficult to understand what you are missing when you don't understand...


The 3.6 and 3.8 share the same block. The 3.8 has more bore and stroke. So longer throw and thinner cylinder walls.
The 3.6 has a 93.4mm bore with an 86mm stroke, and a 10.0:1 CR. the 3.8 has a 96.4mm bore and 90mm stroke. with the increase in bore the 3.8 is down to 5.4mm of actual meat between cylinders. For that reason I'd probably prefer a 3.6. Less likely to have cooling issues and/or cylinder sealing issues.

The V8 with its shorter and stiffer crank would also be an excellent candidate for a good amount of pressure. The added displacement and extra cylinders will also make the task that much easier.

Bro, you quoted me, I said "durability and high horsepower" you're going to tell me a motor that gets torn down and fully rebuilt after 12 seconds of running is reliable???? end of story. Yeah top fuel dragsters fit right inside my point very well...

like i said you don't read.


If you are serious about building a high HP bmw stick to an inline 6. S38B36 is choice but M52 is more realistic. If something brakes in an M52 you can replace it in a weekend. Blow something custom apart in an S38 and you'll be down for weeks.

[MrBlonde]

Today's tip: Unless ego gratification is important, discussions between two people can be handled by PMs.

[techno550]

Bro, you quoted me, I said "durability and high horsepower" you're going to tell me a motor that gets torn down and fully rebuilt after 12 seconds of running is reliable???? end of story. Yeah top fuel dragsters fit right inside my point very well...

like i said you don't read.
Turn it down to 4000 hp and it'll last a lot longer.
OR, build a 2.5 - 3.8L I6 to make 8000 hp and see if it'll last for any number of seconds. I doubt you'll get there.
Your *point* was that the I6 was better for making power. My point was that your point was wrong.


If you are serious about building a high HP bmw stick to an inline 6. S38B36 is choice but M52 is more realistic. If something brakes in an M52 you can replace it in a weekend. Blow something custom apart in an S38 and you'll be down for weeks.
No. Go with whatever gives you the most power easily. With high goals, the more displacement and power you can start with the better off you will be. For extremely high torque applications, you want to use the shortest stiffest crank you can. An I6 is a LONG not-so-stiff crank, which is one reason they are NOT used for high HP applications. (high HP being 5k to 10k.) You then need a block that will hold up to the power demands as well. this is NOT the same as the stiffest block possible, as you do want the block to move where necessary.

[5mall5nail5]

Today's tip: Unless ego gratification is important, discussions between two people can be handled by PMs.

Its true Blonde - this is just ridiculous at this point.


When someone on the forum builds a 5,000 - 10,000 hp engine i think the last question on their mind is "will the crank be stiff enough?" It's afe to say with that hp someone will have a custom crank ;)

Why are you even talking about 5,000 hp motors? I am done.

Original poster: Build an M52, M50 non vanos, or S38 if you want practicality. They are ordered in practicality from most to least.

[techno550]

When someone on the forum builds a 5,000 - 10,000 hp engine i think the last question on their mind is "will the crank be stiff enough?" It's afe to say with that hp someone will have a custom crank ;)

Why are you even talking about 5,000 hp motors? I am done.

Original poster: Build an M52, M50 non vanos, or S38 if you want practicality. They are ordered in practicality from most to least.
We are talking about high HP motors because you said "I said for all practical purposes, an inline 6 is easiest to build for durability and high horsepower. If this weren't the case, I am sure we'd see tons and tons of V6 and V8's ruling the horsepower numbers. The fact of the matter is there is only a fraction of V8s out there in comparison to the many, many, many inline 6 motors making insane horsepower."

If someone were building an extremely high HP engine, they WOULD want to know not only if the crank is stiff enough, but how much flex will there be. You MUST be able to calculate/measure the crank twist under load, as you need to compensate for this when designing the cam. For any race motor, there is a certain amount of "out of whack" tolerances done when cold/static that then "line up" under load.




UM,
It is very simple. You don't understand crank harmonics and made a post that blantantly showed it. I don't let crap like that slide as misinformation can be a very bad thing.

I'm not sure why a college student would want to argue automotive engineering with an automotive engineer anyway.

If I wanted to be a complete dick about it, I could state it as:
things UrineMachine doesn't understand:
crank harmonics
fluid dynamics
heat and mass transfer
thermodynamics
statics
dynamics
engineering principles

things one of my degrees covers:
see above

OP,
if you want a trackable car, (meaning road course worthy powerband), you will need it to be fast spooling and probably relatively low boost. The audi R8 is a great example of this compromise, settling on a 3.6L V8 and running 1.67 bar (absolute) to make 600+ hp.
For your goals, a larger well built motor like a 4.4L to 4.9L V8 with modest boost would probably be the most drivable. A motor with just over half the displacement could indeed get you to your peak power goals, but would yield a much less controllable powerband.

[Gizmo330iT]

S38 = Bullet proof, perfect for boost
S62 = Alot of money, more difficult to tune with its electronics

If money was no option then S62, but my vote still goes for the S38.

[Robstah]

S38 = Bullet proof, perfect for boost
S62 = Alot of money, more difficult to tune with its electronics

If money was no option then S62, but my vote still goes for the S38.

M52 = No valve adjustments at 12,000 miles.

M52 > S38 if this is a daily driven project.

[and1c]

We are talking about high HP motors because you said "I said for all practical purposes, an inline 6 is easiest to build for durability and high horsepower. If this weren't the case, I am sure we'd see tons and tons of V6 and V8's ruling the horsepower numbers. The fact of the matter is there is only a fraction of V8s out there in comparison to the many, many, many inline 6 motors making insane horsepower."

If someone were building an extremely high HP engine, they WOULD want to know not only if the crank is stiff enough, but how much flex will there be. You MUST be able to calculate/measure the crank twist under load, as you need to compensate for this when designing the cam. For any race motor, there is a certain amount of "out of whack" tolerances done when cold/static that then "line up" under load.




UM,
It is very simple. You don't understand crank harmonics and made a post that blantantly showed it. I don't let crap like that slide as misinformation can be a very bad thing.

I'm not sure why a college student would want to argue automotive engineering with an automotive engineer anyway.

If I wanted to be a complete dick about it, I could state it as:
things UrineMachine doesn't understand:
crank harmonics
fluid dynamics
heat and mass transfer
thermodynamics
statics
dynamics
engineering principles

things one of my degrees covers:
see above

OP,
if you want a trackable car, (meaning road course worthy powerband), you will need it to be fast spooling and probably relatively low boost. The audi R8 is a great example of this compromise, settling on a 3.6L V8 and running 1.67 bar (absolute) to make 600+ hp.
For your goals, a larger well built motor like a 4.4L to 4.9L V8 with modest boost would probably be the most drivable. A motor with just over half the displacement could indeed get you to your peak power goals, but would yield a much less controllable powerband.


Dont get too carried away guys!!!
Points taken :)

[5mall5nail5]

Techno say what you will - you want to talk "high horsepower" in a BMW motor, that's about 1000 hp if that. While we're talking about 5,000 8,000 hell 10,000 hp motors why not forget internal combustion all together and use a turbine or four :rolleyes

Get over it techno, you can have all the degrees in the world and what you say is still ridiculous.

This dude is asking about motors, clearly he has no intention of making anything we haven't seen before.

Get off your http://www.worth1000.com/entries/119000/119101EKMJ_w.jpg

[techno550]

Lets take a step back and look at this.

OP wants drivability, which is the OPPOSITE of PEAKY. You are suggesting a high boost low displacement solution. It would take some impressive technology (and lots of money) to make that not peaky. Infinately variable valve timing, valve lift, and intake geometry would be required. That or you'd need to make all of the HP with revs. (which is also not an easy task.)


The "rediculously high HP" engines were mentioned because you basically said V8's couldn't do it as they weren't as "balanced" as an I6. I was just pointing out that that statement was as ignorant as saying white people can't play basketball.

I again say that 700+ hp will be easier to achieve as well as more drivable with a 4.X L V8 than a I6 of less displacement. (especially if considering an I6 in the 2.5 to 3L range.)

[northeaste36]

M52 = No valve adjustments at 12,000 miles.

M52 > S38 if this is a daily driven project.

A valve adjustment every 12k is not all that big of a deal; it's got to be worth it. Considering he wants 750 hp, the S38 is likely the better choice(betwixt the two), I would think it wouldn't be as close to the "edge", and probably have a wider power band, no?

[highboostingm3]

It would take some impressive technology (and lots of money) to make that not peaky. Infinately variable valve timing, valve lift, and intake geometry would be required.
What really comes to mind here is the VGT turbo made as large as say a GT40R or pt70gts. However there is no such thing yet for a gasoline engine. :(

So turbo V8 FTW. I discussed this in length with my tuners and was shot down. It would have cost a lot more as well.

[5mall5nail5]

What really comes to mind here is the VGT turbo made as large as say a GT40R or pt70gts. However there is no such thing yet for a gasoline engine. :(

So turbo V8 FTW. I discussed this in length with my tuners and was shot down. It would have cost a lot more as well.

Yep that's just it Cameron hit it on the head - a built bmw inline 6 motor is expensive. A built bmw V8 is a lot more. I'd feel more comfortable running a built M52 at 700 hp than a built V8 at 700 just because the V8s aren't really proven. There are like, two S62s out there making like 550 - 600 or something, and the one motor (built, cryo'd, blueprinted) exploded.

[Bav///Man]

:nono

Please focus on helping the OP.

[ACS3 CLS]

For the record, there are many more than just 2 s62's making high HP. It's tuff to say definitivley how many there realy are but I know theres quite a few on M5BOARD, also check out discovery automotive. That's what I had in mind if I went that route.

Is this finaly the end of this "pissing contest"?

My take on all this.....It sounds like (techno550) might seriously be a rocket scientist, and (urinemachine) sounds like he might be a mechanic. Both seem to know what they are talking about, and both had some good feedback, but.....let's not get ego's get in the way. You guys should join forces. Two heads are always better than one. I'm sure both of you could teach eachother a thing or two about engines, and I'm sure both of you will continue to share your knowledge with myself and other members who find it very informative and valuable. So, I was just wondering what do you guys do to keep busy? Like a job? Don't feel obligated to answer; just wondering?



So, 3.6 or 3.2? Bigger is better right?

Should the parts be just as easy to find for each one?

What type of boost can a stock block handle?

[DIRT11]

:nono

Please focus on helping the OP.

Good point the S38 was offered earlier by BMWANREAS and that would fit in an E36 body and be bullet proof ....:) :) :) :) I think that the S62 's put out by Discovery -Automotive are killer and proven beyond a doubt for excessive power actually , costly sure but , with that setup if you have to ask $$$ why bother....Actually Rickard Andersson developed a twin Rotrex system that produced a lot of power dependably , also AA has a kit for the S62 , they just cost and would hardly fit in an E36 ......Nothing wrong with a V8 just open the wallet and keep it in a car that it can fit it's massive size.....:cashwalle I am sure George would love to build an E36 bullet proof car for the OP , all he has to do is call ICS...

[DIRT11]

So turbo V8 FTW. I discussed this in length with my tuners and was shot down. It would have cost a lot more as well.[/QUOTE]

BUT , it has been done and I can not find the pictures as of yet nor the information but , the car produced something like 800 whp or so and it was a British guy , I think ..??. A twin turbo setup of some sort , I will keep looking.... It only takes $$$$...I know this is off Topic sorry .... :) :) :) :) :deadhorse:

[highboostingm3]

BUT , it has been done and I can not find the pictures as of yet nor the information but , the car produced something like 800 whp or so and it was a British guy , I think ..??. A twin turbo setup of some sort , I will keep looking.... It only takes $$$$...I know this is off Topic sorry .... :) :) :) :) :deadhorse:
Not sure if it is a dead horse because the point of this thread is to figure out which engine would be the best turboed to 750whp for him and I don't think he has decided yet. So yeah, if somebody did the s62 or m62 TT in an e36 I want to see it and the author of the thread probably does too. V8 FTW! My tuners didn't say it "can't" be done but they didn't want to tackle such a project and they also hinted at how much more money it would be. Same with the s38...plus they were very worried about space. I am spending so much as it is. I just wish the e36 had the room of the e30. I so wish that! Then I would have gone s38 or V8 FTMFW.

[MrBlonde]

I think V8 TT is the way to go for anyone starting a big budget build, but it sure is hard to fit an S62 and two pumps in an E36 engine bay. Anyhting can be done though.

[techno550]

two small turbos shouldn't be terribly difficult to place. 750 is a relatively modest number for a decently sized engine, so properly sized log manifolds would work, and that would make small turbos tucked high and against the block that much easier.

A motor that can make ~500 NA shouldn't have a problem making 750 at modest boost.

[Jatterbu]

In my opinion, the S50B32, S38B36, and the S62 motors are the ones i would build. If its going in an E36, for sure an S50B32 as it has been proven to be a damn near bulletproof motor when built properly. Not to mention it makes insane power with boost. The S38B36 motor is a hot ticket as well, more displacement FTW. But if you want to be the most creative in a build, it has got to go to the S62.

If you can somehow cram a TT S62 in a E36 body, you immediately have one of the sexiest cars ever. The other option is that the S62 can reach the 1000hp levels with a supercharger. Discovery Auto has done it, so it can be done again. With the right amount of money, anything can be done.

I mean shit, if people can make a fucking Honda Civic run 8's with a street car, why can't you have a 1000hp BMW, with any motor.


Joey

[techno550]

the difficulty isn't in the peak HP number, it is in the drivability.

[and1c]

In my opinion, the S50B32, S38B36, and the S62 motors are the ones i would build. If its going in an E36, for sure an S50B32 as it has been proven to be a damn near bulletproof motor when built properly. Not to mention it makes insane power with boost. The S38B36 motor is a hot ticket as well, more displacement FTW. But if you want to be the most creative in a build, it has got to go to the S62.

If you can somehow cram a TT S62 in a E36 body, you immediately have one of the sexiest cars ever. The other option is that the S62 can reach the 1000hp levels with a supercharger. Discovery Auto has done it, so it can be done again. With the right amount of money, anything can be done.

I mean shit, if people can make a fucking Honda Civic run 8's with a street car, why can't you have a 1000hp BMW, with any motor.


Joey

On reading this article the S62 doesnt seem as suited to FI as would be nice...(eg/ sleeving the block will be required maybe to get enough meat between the cylinders??)


Here are all the facts about BMW's hottest V-8:

The V-8's aluminum cylinder block shares the M62's basic architecture (including long-lasting, weight-saving silicon-impregnated cylinder walls) but is a specific casting with 94.0-mm cylinders vs. the M62's 92.0. The stroke is increased from 82.7 mm to 89.0 mm. This results in a displacement of 4941 cc, or approximately 5 liters. "Above all, we wanted to create an abundant torque curve," says BMW M engineer Wolfgang Kreinhšfner modestly - and if that is the goal, to paraphrase what the hot-rodders used to say, "there's no substitute for liters." The cylinder centers are 98.0 mm apart, leaving only 4 mm of block surface between cylinders. For effective sealing with this tight cylinder spacing, BMW M engineers developed new 3-layer steel head gaskets.



Electronic Throttle Butterfly

Breathing is of course a top priority; BMW M spared no expense in developing the S62's induction system.

Air is taken in at two points behind the front bumper, passes through two intake silencers and two hot-film air-mass meters, and then flows into the voluminous carbon-fiber plenum atop the engine. From there, air courses through 230-mm intake runners (including the throttle housings) to the individual cylinders. The entire assembly of plenum and runners is attached to the throttle housings via a rubber/metal flange (one per bank) that acoustically and thermally decouples the plenum from the engine itself.

Admission of air to the cylinders is not through "a throttle," but through eight individual throttle butterflies, one for each cylinder. Individual throttles are a very costly feature, reserved for the highest-performance engines - including racing powerplants. Previous large M 6-cylinder engines, powering M1, M5 and M6 models, all had this feature; but the S62 is the first BMW engine with electronically actuated individual throttles. Positioned much nearer the cylinders than a single throttle can be, these throttles eliminate a "lag time" inherent in airflow and allow the engine to react much more quickly to throttle movements.

Each throttle operates in its own housing, mounted directly at the intake ports. Via the accelerator pedal and its two potentiometers, the driver gives the commands. In turn, these commands are processed by the engine control module and received by a DC servo motor between the cylinder banks. In turn, through a tiny gearbox, this motor drives a shaft that drives a link to each bank to rotate the four throttles of that bank.

These two links rotate the two throttle shafts, connecting via ball joints at cylinders 3 and 6. From these points, the other three throttles (each 50 mm in diameter) of each bank are opened and closed. The servo motor reacts to any pedal movement in a lightning-fast 120 milliseconds, so the driver perceives no lag time; via the M Driving Dynamics Control system, there are two settings for throttle response: Normal and quicker Sport.

The throttles of cylinders 4 and 8 also have their own feedback potentiometers to monitor the throttles' operation. If a fault is recognized, the system switches to one of four "limp-home" modes that can allow operation at up to 62 mph.



Double VANOS

The S62 is BMW's first V-8 engine equipped with Double VANOS, a system that steplessly varies the timing of both intake and exhaust valves on both cylinder banks.

Current BMW 2.5 and 2.8-liter 6-cylinder engines also have the Double system; current "regular" V-8s have a Single VANOS system that steplessly varies intake-valve timing. In addition to enhanced low to medium-speed torque, the advantages of VANOS include:

Reduced unburned hydrocarbons during idling
Smoother idling
Internal exhaust-gas recirculation at low speeds for improved control of oxides of nitrogen (Nox)
Quicker warmup of the catalytic converters after a cold start, therefore reduced emissions during this operational phase
As on other BMW engines, the VANOS mechanisms are at the front of the cylinder heads. The 1450 psi of hydraulic pressure used to actuate VANOS is provided by dedicated oil pumps, one per cylinder head. Valve timing is varied over a range of 60o in terms of crankshaft rotation, a wider adjustment range than that of other BMW engines.

The S62 has its own unique Motronic control system, designated MSS 52, which oversees:

Basic engine functions
Electronic throttle system (incorporating influences of cruise control and Dynamic Stability Control)
G-sensitive lubrication system
Thermal oil-level sender
Variable tachometer warning zone
Catalytic-converter protective functions
Double VANOS variable valve timing
Maximum engine speed (7000 rpm)
M Driving Dynamics Control, which provides two settings for the throttle system and power steering.

[Robstah]

I vote the S70/2 or S70B56.

[and1c]

I vote the S70/2 or S70B56.

is that the V12?
Not seen any turboed with big numbers yet?!

[and1c]

Just thought guys..

Whats the new V10 engine from the E60 M5 called? as in engine code wise??

It looks perfect..... bedplate ftmfw!!


mass balance of the crankshaft drive, optimized for low vibration and increased comfort.

To ensure maximum stiffness and resist the high loads resulting from combustion pressure, engine speed and vibrations, a bedplate design has been chosen for the crankcase.

For an optimum alignment of the crankshaft, gray-cast iron inserts have been integrated into the aluminum bedplate, which also serve to enhance acoustics, increase vibrational comfort and ensure a high oil supply rate.

The extremely stiff crankshaft is supported by six bearings. In the new M5, it is the first time that BMW has used a bedplate design for a production V-engine.

The one-piece aluminum cylinder heads of the V10 engine are arranged in banks. The V10 power unit features four valves per cylinder, a typical BMW trait. All valve train components are of low mass. Thus, for example, the M engines feature for the first time low-weight, flow-optimized 5 mm-shaft valves, spherical valve tappets with hydraulic valve play compensation and single valve springs. All this results in a considerable mass

The bi-VANOS variable valve timing featured in the new M5 engine ensures an optimum charge cycle, thus helping to achieve extremely short adjustment times. This means in practice: increased performance, an improved torque curve, optimum responsiveness, lower consumption and fewer emissions. Thanks to the bi-VANOS technology, intake and outlet valves are always opened and closed at precisely the right moment.

The MS S65 engine management system is the central factor behind the V10's outstanding performance and emission data. With more than 1,000 individual components, this engine management system is unparalleled in its package density. Its processors are the most powerful currently approved for use in automobiles, as high engine speeds and comprehensive management and control tasks demand the utmost from this system.

Receiving more than 50 input signals, this system calculates for each individual cylinder and for each individual cycle the optimum ignition point, the ideal cylinder fill, the injection quantity and the injection point. At the same time this system calculates and makes the necessary adjustments for the optimum camshaft angle and the optimum position of the ten individual throttles.

The ionic current technology featured by the engine management unit is a technological highlight which serves to detect engine knock, misfiring and combustion misses.

Utilizing the spark plug in each cylinder, this system helps to pinpoint engine knock, to check for correct ignition and to detect any ignition misses. Thus the spark plug has a dual function - as an actuator for the ignition and as a sensor for monitoring the combustion process.




http://www.bmwworld.com/models/m5_e60.htm

WOW :buttrock

[bmwm3n528]

I vote the S70/2 or S70B56.

Ha. You talk about big money.

Take a look at the figures on Rebuild Program's on Henry Lawrence's website for an idea...

www.powerplantracing.com

The biggest limiting factor on the V12s is their heads...Flow issues.

[rundatrack]

the difficulty isn't in the peak HP number, it is in the drivability.


Great quote..many miss that....

MANY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[pastE36prsntE46]

If you are looking for reliability and big numbers, I know it isnt either and E36 or V8 but why not go with a HPF setup?

[5mall5nail5]

Great quote..many miss that....

MANY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

driveability is different than peak hp. You can have great driveability in a car that has 1000 hp at 7000 rpm but 300 hp at 6500 rpm. The car would be very "driveable". I think he meant power under the curve is more important than peak power, but again that depends on what you're building.

[Robstah]

Ha. You talk about big money.

Take a look at the figures on Rebuild Program's on Henry Lawrence's website for an idea...

www.powerplantracing.com

The biggest limiting factor on the V12s is their heads...Flow issues.

You obviously missed the sarcasm. :stickoutt

The S70 is from a McLaren F1.

http://antholonet.com/EngineersCars/McLarenF1/bmwv12engine.jpg

[BigM62]

I6 is for sissies. Go big or go home.;)

[DIRT11]

I have seen more power come out of the Inline six engines but , it seems it is real hard for all that power to be put to the ground.There are exceptions of course.A twin turbo M62 or S62 would be cool to see though, Would not be cheap....

[Concentric190]

my choices would be

S54
S38 3.6
M50 based
euro S50

depending on how much money you plan on sinking into the motor, how off the shelf or custom you would like to make it, and reliability.

M50 based is the best choice if you want something that will work, you can get parts for quickly and cheaper then the rest, many off the shelf parts, but run into reliability a little (gaskets).

as far as bieng able to make the most power, I would go with S38 and S54 2nd. only thing is bieng expensive, not as much R&D, and more expensive/harder to find parts

euro s50 is nice but i'd rather have an s54.

[rundatrack]

driveability is different than peak hp. You can have great driveability in a car that has 1000 hp at 7000 rpm but 300 hp at 6500 rpm. The car would be very "driveable". I think he meant power under the curve is more important than peak power, but again that depends on what you're building.


Ok so power under the curve is more important than peak power...

Another great quote from a great quote.




You and Techno havent had a good debate in a long while...its entertaining to watch to say the least.

I think Techno is very versed in this subject however........but I think he doesn't like you either so he waits for you to say something wrong....


When you guys rant on and on I just say give the fakker a kiss already I know you like each other....:stickoutt:stickoutt:stickoutt:stickoutt

[bmwm3n528]

You obviously missed the sarcasm. :stickoutt

The S70 is from a McLaren F1.

http://antholonet.com/EngineersCars/McLarenF1/bmwv12engine.jpg


I vote the S70/2 or S70B56.

But, a S70B56 is not...With all this talk of mega HP motors, it's hard to figure out what's realistic.

Anyway, on with the thread.

[DIRT11]

I bet there some smart Scandinavian that could fit that engine in an E36 configuration somehow...