Custom FMIC w/ CF S/C ?

[turbosporttsi]

has anyone created their own custom front mount intercooler setup for a centrifugal supercharger?

i'm thinking of trying it..... i wanted to get a general idea of the pipe routing.

also, was it worth the hassle? was there generally a decent drop in IATs? how did it affect throttle response and boost levels? what size core (ballpark) fits well under the bumper? (i plan on removing the aux fan and AC condenser)

any insight would be appreciated.

[pbonsalb]

It is a really tight fit. Cartech made a system, but it never sold well. The piping is fairly long and convoluted, but then again, so is the piping on many turbo cars. Search for the Cartech website. Somewhere on this forum is a thread with photos of an installation.

With the small Rotrex, there is more room to route piping, which is why AA is able to use a front mount with its Rotrex kits. The big Vortech gets in the way, though it can all be done from behind with some sharp turns like Cartech uses.

I like the Dinan front mount as used on the E46M3, but am not sure if there is enough room on the E36M3. Signifcant fabrication would be required. Study the intercooled Dinan E46M3.

In essence, the air to water intercooler breaks up the big front mount into several smaller components, which are more easily located in the tight engine bay. The compact water to air cooler itself also fits between the blower and throttle body, so there is minimal pressure drop from long tubes and a long intercooler core.

It looks like VFE may come out with an intake manifold with integrated water to air intercooler. This could be worth considering. It apparently will be about the same price as the RMS Vortech style water to air intercooler.

A clever DIY person who can weld aluminum should be able to make his own using one of the Ebay copies of the Vortech aftercooler with some modifications and a front mount Cobra style aftermarket heat exchanger, and Ford Cobra or other aftermarket pump.

Philip Bradley

[turbosporttsi]

thanks for all the info. i will def have to look into the dinan e46.

the main reason i am considering this is that i dont wanna rely solely on WI all the time, and i dont want an aftercooler... i work on my car all the time. an aftercooler would be a huge PITA for me.

i know AA uses a front mount, but like you said, the rotrex is smaller...

i also would like to know if the compressor housing can be rotated. this would make the piping alot easier.

also, i was thinking that i could have an aftermarket STi intercooler with fabbed up brackets..... this way the piping wont have to run all the way across the front of the car like with a horizontally oriented intercooler.

with the STi IC the piping would go from the top of the ic to the bottom, making the pipe bends alot less dramatic. less 180 deg bends... more 90 deg.

hopefully this will result in less pressure drop. and with the removal of my AC condenser and aux fan there should be plenty of room for the charge piping.

its just an idea at this point but it seems pretty good to me. opinions?

[turbosporttsi]

oh, and that aftercooled manifold sounds like a great idea..... expensive, but interesting.

[turbosporttsi]

bump for more info. i may have sourced a spearco IC measuring an approx 26x7x3 with end tanks. inlet/outlet is 2.5".

this should be just an inch or 2 bigger than the bumper opening in every aspect.

i will be using a j pipe to return across the top of the IC.

the hard part will be routing the pipes. i'm still trying to find more info on the alternator relocation i read about..... cant find it now...

input?


oh, and also, i have the 5.125/3.33 pulley combo on my V2 right now. i was thinking that i could offset the pressure drop a little by switching to the 3.23 s/c pulley. what would that normally out me at, boost-wise?

[FST BMW]

Bump for a very good topic... Keep us posted..

[kobe 8]

Aftercooler IAT's are steady at ambient + 30-35* (either at idle or moving), whereas for mine, the FMIC at idle is ambient + ~50*, but when moving it's ambient + 40*. With the FMIC, boost dropped to ~2psi. I used to have a 6" crank & a 3.33" s/c pulley that netted 9psi. I had to decrease my s/c pulley
(3.125") to get 11psi.

I would think a FMIC is more of a PITA than installing an aftercooler.

[turbosporttsi]

yes it will be more of a PITA on the install, but i work on my car frequently...... and moving a pipe or two is alot easier than moving an aftercooler that is kind of wedged in there. hell, my discharge tube is hard enough to remove.

yeah i read up on your install. also on the other guy that had the cartech. i expect maybe a little more than 2 psi drop with my setup.

how did you get 9 psi with that combo? i get 8-9ish now with a 5.125/3.33. but seeing how you had to go down about .20 on the s/c pulley to get 2 psi back, i think i will do the same. with the exception of the 6" crank of course. :)

[pbonsalb]

Let us know how it works out. The project sounds interesting. I like air to air intercoolers, but did not feel like wrestling one in there with all the piping.

I am about to install a 27 x 3 x 7 front mount heat exchanger for the Vortech style aftercooler on my E36 M3. Welded differently, it could probably be your intercooler.

Philip Bradley

[paul e]

yes it will be more of a PITA on the install, but i work on my car frequently...... and moving a pipe or two is alot easier than moving an aftercooler that is kind of wedged in there. hell, my discharge tube is hard enough to remove.

yeah i read up on your install. also on the other guy that had the cartech. i expect maybe a little more than 2 psi drop with my setup.

how did you get 9 psi with that combo? i get 8-9ish now with a 5.125/3.33. but seeing how you had to go down about .20 on the s/c pulley to get 2 psi back, i think i will do the same. with the exception of the 6" crank of course. :)

Its true that, no doubt, the aftercooler cramps up the engine bay pretty good... Makes accessing even things like the PS res a thing of the past. And forget about getting under your manifold for anything :)

But even with the right sized FMIC, as youve identified, the big problem is going to be intake air reroute. I think that, even under ideal situations, the least your going to lose is about 2 psi, with potential for alot more than that. I dont know what effect this is going to have on throttle response, but it doesnt thrill me. When you compare the relatively straight through shot the intake air has with the aftercooler with the relatively convoluted path its going to be taking even with an optimal FMIC tubing source and installation, it begins to look worrisome to me.

So, I wish you the best of luck. Most people seem to prefer the idea of an FMIC if they can fit it, mostly for visual reasons, and for less complexity. But, its really only less complex if the accompanying tubing doesnt screw things up for you. Report back often!

[chisau]

http://www.rhinewestperformance.com/icpics.htm

Only $3200. What a bargain. Things have definitely changed over the years!

[marc1119]

Aftercoolers can be had for cheaper than you think..if you contact the right person..privately...;)

[turbosporttsi]

phonsalb- wow, thats a huge heat exchanger! be sure to take lots of pics of how it mounts and fits. i could use the ideas.... as my kit will be completely custom. the only difference will be that i will not have my aux fan or my AC condenser to worry about. i will have alot more options when it comes to mounting and pipe routing. g/l!

marco- haha.... but i know i dont have the dough for even that price.... the FMIC will end up costing me less than 300 total. ;) not to mention its a spearco core......i did contact the right person. lol. AND, given its size, should cool better than an aftercooler. or damn near.

paul- im not sure how much boost ill lose, but you will have to remember, the cartech kit has strange piping and is made for people who have that kind of money, if you know what i mean.... let's call it form over function. i think i can do better.

as for throttle response, i have owned 3 modified turbo cars.... i've never had any problems with throttle response.

except for a 'very special' (read: retarded) friend of mine who decided it would be a good idea to have me install the largest FMIC on the market on his otherwise bone stock STi. lets just say he hit full boost aboiut the same time i do with my CF SC. lol

[turbosporttsi]

kobe8- did you have any probs with belt slip with that 3.125 sc pulley? i think thats what i will wind up with.

maybe we could meet up some time... i'd like to take a closer look at the sc discharge and tb inlet piping. and some rough measurements. the rest of the piping would be completely different on my setup though.

[kobe 8]

kobe8- did you have any probs with belt slip with that 3.125 sc pulley? i think thats what i will wind up with.

maybe we could meet up some time... i'd like to take a closer look at the sc discharge and tb inlet piping. and some rough measurements. the rest of the piping would be completely different on my setup though.

turbosporttsi: I don't have any belt slip. The belt gap is a tab under 1" from each other. I could've met up with you at the DRS dyno (originally Sunday but was changed to Sat) so I couldn't make it. I'm about 45 min from Oceanside. We should meet one of these days. I'd like to check out your s/c as well....

[turbosporttsi]

sounds good! i work a crazy shift right now, but it should go back to normal in 3-4 weeks. then i will be free almost every weekend.

so, by 1" of belt gap, you mean at the tensioner pulley? where they almost touch?

i really wish i could go to an 8 rib setup, but the crank pulley would hit my elec fan. but at least i wouldnt really have to worry about slip.

[kobe 8]

so, by 1" of belt gap, you mean at the tensioner pulley? where they almost touch?

That's correct.

Good luck on your s/c project :buttrock