Which has better handling - our M3s or a Z06

[rootuddha]

what do you think

[GreenBeem93]

handling "feel" is going to be different from person to person. So it all depends on how comfortable you are at the limit with each car.

the simple answer is the Z06

[pbonsalb]

A Z06. Spend $25,000 modifying your M3 and the ZO6 will still beat it around a track.

Philip Bradley

[ChosenGSR]

My guess would be the z06

[///Mundr]

Our suspension technology is out dated, it is still a great handling car, but the new sports cars are much better with the newly developed technology they are implementing now days. The Z06 is better.

[FierySphere]

It's not an easy comparison.
It's like asking who is prettier: a young Jayne Mansfield or Angelina Jolie?
For most folks, they will only know one or the other...

Take a Z06, pull 4 plug leads off, add weight until it weighs 3300lb's, put on 235 tires and compare.

Bottom line (for me), is that the Z06 will be faster, will flatter a poor driver better, and probably get a better valet spot outside a restaurant. The E36 M3 is a great sedan car, with better build quality, interior design, has usable storage space, and makes a fun track car.

[lithium726]

I honestly like how my car feels more than my friend's 04 Z06, but to be fair, I have not gotten gobs of time to drive the car around. Sure is fast though.. He's got it putting down about 515HP, and he's about to stroke it.

[phantom3]

z06 without a question .. besides hp and weight ..just compare thier lateral acceleration G's ... i love my m3 ,but cant wait to own a z06 :embarrasm

[Mr.M]

The Z06 is vastly superior. Yes, it has leafsprings, but those are much lighter than regular coil springs. The disadvantage is that they are expensive to manufacture, but that's GM's deal ;)

The Z06 has doulbe A-arms all around, and the only other road cars I can think of with the same geometry are the NSX, Maxda Miata, and Lotus Elise. All of which are great handling cars. The E36 is great, but the Z06 has better suspension, less weight, a lower CG, and I think it has a wider track as well. I like the steering feel of the E36 better, but the Z06 is a better handling car and will be way faster.

phantom3: lateral acceleration has too much to do with tires to attribute it to the cars handling alone. IMO is doesn't really indicate which car is better handling because it's so tire dependant.

[pbonsalb]

The Z06 has doulbe A-arms all around, and the only other road cars I can think of with the same geometry are the NSX, Maxda Miata, and Lotus Elise. .

Didn't some of the smaller and sportier Hondas or Acuras have the double A arms until about two years ago when, for some unknown reason but probably one related to cost savings, Honda went back to a single?

Philip Bradley

[Tuff Guy]

anyone remember when they actually did this handling comparison between all these high end cars and the m3? m3 came out on top of c5 corvette, porsche ferrari nsx all those lemme see if i can find the link

[SG_M3]

Our suspension technology is out dated, it is still a great handling car, but the new sports cars are much better with the newly developed technology they are implementing now days. The Z06 is better.

last time I check cars still use Macpherson struts and multi link rear. I wouldn't call it outdated.

The z06 is faster. The e36 m3 is easier to drive at the limit.

[Tuff Guy]

heres a link to the story, but i have the official article on my other computer
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100188

[mobil1]

anyone remember when they actually did this handling comparison between all these high end cars and the m3? m3 came out on top of c5 corvette, porsche ferrari nsx all those lemme see if i can find the link


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y54/evanescent12/wNTA1OTE2NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE3D.jpg


Obviously the M3 was beaten by most of these cars by light years when you compare the lap times, but they said in the article it was the "best handling", not considering any other factors. I think that article was a load of crap honestly. All I got from reading it was, "The m3 was the easiest to sit in and go fast". You dont really need any seat time in an M3 to just jump in, feel comfortable, and drive it to the limit. Where as if you try that in a 911, you're in for a rude awakening.

[Mr.M]

Didn't some of the smaller and sportier Hondas or Acuras have the double A arms until about two years ago when, for some unknown reason but probably one related to cost savings, Honda went back to a single?

Philip Bradley

Almost every car on the road has double a arm in the front, but the vette, NSX, Miata, are unique in that they have the same setup in the REAR. BMW's are multilink rears.

[wheresmym3]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y54/evanescent12/wNTA1OTE2NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE3D.jpg


Obviously the M3 was beaten by most of these cars by light years when you compare the lap times, but they said in the article it was the "best handling", not considering any other factors. I think that article was a load of crap honestly. All I got from reading it was, "The m3 was the easiest to sit in and go fast". You dont really need any seat time in an M3 to just jump in, feel comfortable, and drive it to the limit. Where as if you try that in a 911, you're in for a rude awakening.

The thing that killed the M3's times were its power to weight ratio. This was based on US production model. Switch that with the M3 Evo and it would have been a lot different. All in all I enjoyed reading the article.

[slowcheetah]

If you haven't ridden in a Z06, I definitley suggest trying to find a ride, hell, even a regular C5 or C6, either of which are amazing cars.

[wheresmym3]

My roomate has an 03 ZO6 WITH mods. I know they are amazing never said they weren't. Don't hold a candle to the new C6 ZO6 though!!!

[slowcheetah]

I would give an arm and a leg for a new Z06/7. as long as a got a prostetic leg and arm to operate it properly lol

[AlpinaM3]

Think what you want but what the article said was the M3 had a "total" feel that was confidence inspiring when you drive it to the limit and beyond. So you do the same thing to a Porsche 911 and the back comes out and you have to throttle it back or you loose it. I have done in 2 Porsche I owned (not loosing it) It does not mean that because the M3 is better behaved that it is not a challenge. Its about being a consistent driver and being able to handle anything that happens at speed. Its just easier in an M3. So would modern computer driver assist make you feel better?

[328iJunkie]

By the way, you guys keep talking about outdated suspension?.... The new ZO6 uses leaf springs and a solid rear end.... along with its 7L OHV engine i think its got us beat on the outdated thing...

[Serious]

By the way, you guys keep talking about outdated suspension?.... The new ZO6 uses leaf springs and a solid rear end.... along with its 7L OHV engine i think its got us beat on the outdated thing...

point 1. its a single leaf spring and its mounted transversely. completely different from truck left springs

point 2. all modern corvettes c5-c6 use independent rear suspension.

point 3. any engine that uses a proven race car engine as a blueprint isnt outdated no matter the design. hell the turbocharger was invented in 1905 does that make every turbo engine outdated?

btw imo a boxster S outhandles both an m3 and a corvette in stock form.

[EnzoXYZ]

Its a lot to do with drivers. I beat a lot of newer nice cars at autoxs but they have better cars.

[JuCo]

Its a lot to do with drivers. I beat a lot of newer nice cars at autoxs but they have better cars.

EXCELLENT PT!

E36 M3 is a performer no doubt, but as with any car = progression/technology in the industry will always prevail.

I still enjoying driving my car to "my," limits when permitable.

[HBpredhunter]

anyone remember when they actually did this handling comparison between all these high end cars and the m3? m3 came out on top of c5 corvette, porsche ferrari nsx all those lemme see if i can find the link

yea but thats OLD cars.

dont compare a z06 to our m3s... DUH our are outdated.

but heres what we GOT! in 95, we owned everything! (up till like 99 too i think right? who knows)

plus they are SOLID cars bmw's, m50 based engines are very badass, a vette engine they dont last so long.

[DADx2]

FWIW.............. Corvette has been using IRS since 1963.

[POS VETT]

I can say the Z06 handles better. The C5 Z06 does weigh more but only by about 100 lbs. Both have near perfect weight balance, all independent suspensions (the Z06 uses plastic leaf springs on both ends, yes you can have an independent suspension with a leaf spring) and, of course, rear wheel drive with LSD.

But the similarities stop there. The Z06 is a beast, it makes the M3 feels peppy at best. It outaccelerates, outbrakes, outhandles the M3, and it would just turn heads/drop jaws/encourage finger pointing more than the M3 ever could. Not to mention the type of noise that only a V8 can produce. Throttle response at no load is different too, for some reason the Z06 has a throttle response that's, not as quick, near a sportbike's.

Other differences are abound. One is the highway cruising speed. The Z06 spins at about 1600 rpm in 6th gear at 65 mph. The M3 motor spins about twice at the same speed. That makes for a very interesting result, the Z06 gets 30-31 mpg on highway. A regular C5 with taller gearing and better aerodynamic can get 32-33 mpg. The M3 has to cruise at a lower speed to get that kind of gas mileage.

The kicker is the Z06 costs me only $7 more to insure. Per 6 months :eek:

And for those who are still doubting GM's offerings nowadays for a real sports car, try again. The LSx is a gem of an engine. GM older motors may have trouble with reliability, but not LSx. And, no, a Corvette is not too expensive to produce. GM makes sure of this by producing a lot of them (the economy of mass production). The type of the independent suspension does make a difference but not by much when you are comparing double A arms/McPherson struts/multi-link. The thing is, it's a comparison between a real sports car (a C5 Z06 can be also considered an entry level supercar, IMO) and a pseudo sports sedan. The M3 will excel with its "utility" aspect being able to carry 4-5 people, quieter ride (sound/heat insulation is abound) and 4 doors (as in my case) while in the Z06 three is a crowd, ride is ok (center console got HOT after a few hours of driving) and only 2 doors.

And for the guy who thinks a Z06 will require less driving skills, think again. It's one of the more difficult cars I have ever driven. Took me a few years to get half decent with it. Most of the time is spent learning to RESPECT the power/torque that the engine produces and to be able to utilize the abundance of those to your advantage. The M3, OTOH, is confidence inspiring, yes that's true, but that's because its engine is "forgiving". It doesn't produce enough power to create a status of a beast. No, it won't bite you in the ass like when you poke the throttle in the Z06 and spin the 315/30/18 Pirelli PZero Corsa race tires.

[m3chaser]

I can say the Z06 handles better. The C5 Z06 does weigh more but only by about 100 lbs. Both have near perfect weight balance, all independent suspensions (the Z06 uses plastic leaf springs on both ends, yes you can have an independent suspension with a leaf spring) and, of course, rear wheel drive with LSD.

But the similarities stop there. The Z06 is a beast, it makes the M3 feels peppy at best. It outaccelerates, outbrakes, outhandles the M3, and it would just turn heads/drop jaws/encourage finger pointing more than the M3 ever could. Not to mention the type of noise that only a V8 can produce. Throttle response at no load is different too, for some reason the Z06 has a throttle response that's, not as quick, near a sportbike's.

Other differences are abound. One is the highway cruising speed. The Z06 spins at about 1600 rpm in 6th gear at 65 mph. The M3 motor spins about twice at the same speed. That makes for a very interesting result, the Z06 gets 30-31 mpg on highway. A regular C5 with taller gearing and better aerodynamic can get 32-33 mpg. The M3 has to cruise at a lower speed to get that kind of gas mileage.

The kicker is the Z06 costs me only $7 more to insure. Per 6 months :eek:



great post here. i can also speak from experience here as my brother has a 2000 C5 6spd and i handles like it is on rails i must admit that i am more comfortable with my car when driving hard but that is because my car isn't as fast as his car. his car has a different handling feel then my car, but i imagine it can actually handle better.

vettes FTW! really, the vette is probably the only other car that i would take over my M3 outside of BMW. i just really love my car and have driven a fair amount of fast cars, and i can honestly say that none are as fun as my M3. preference i guess.

[CosmoE36]

the Z06 is just a beast all around. not to mention the 06 model :eek:

[turbo8765]

What do finger pointing, engine revs at 60 mph in top gear, and fuel economy have to do with handling??

When you ask which car handles better, do you mean in terms of objective measures or subjective measures??

If you mean objective measures, which ones?? Skidpad? Slalom? Figure 8? Lap times?? Do you want to find an index that puts less emphasis on p/w ratio??

If you mean subjective, then who gets to decide? I truly prefer the steering of a mazda protege over a vette anyday.

Questions of this nature always lead to long threads with comments like, oh yeah, if could spend $$$ on my 76' POS hatchback, I'd rape your gallardo...

[m3chaser]

What do finger pointing, engine revs at 60 mph in top gear, and fuel economy have to do with handling??

When you ask which car handles better, do you mean in terms of objective measures or subjective measures??

If you mean objective measures, which ones?? Skidpad? Slalom? Figure 8? Lap times?? Do you want to find an index that puts less emphasis on p/w ratio??

If you mean subjective, then who gets to decide? I truly prefer the steering of a mazda protege over a vette anyday.

Questions of this nature always lead to long threads with comments like, oh yeah, if could spend $$$ on my 76' POS hatchback, I'd rape your gallardo...


again good posts here bro.

i do have to disagree with the steering on the vettes. i like my brothers vette alot and how it steers, but maybe that is cause i have made love to his exhaust and the skeet has blinded any bit of logic that i possess :alright

[CoupeSportLite]

It's not an easy comparison.
It's like asking who is prettier: a young Jayne Mansfield or Angelina Jolie?
For most folks, they will only know one or the other...

Take a Z06, pull 4 plug leads off, add weight until it weighs 3300lb's, put on 235 tires and compare.

Bottom line (for me), is that the Z06 will be faster, will flatter a poor driver better, and probably get a better valet spot outside a restaurant. The E36 M3 is a great sedan car, with better build quality, interior design, has usable storage space, and makes a fun track car.

who's jayne mansfield?

[nitty]

who's jayne mansfield?
She's the one on the right. Sophia Loren is the other.

<img src="http://www.genesis-publications.com/books/time/sophia-jayne.jpg">

[malter]

what is really sad is that we are comparing GM's NEW sports car model to 10 year old german performance non-sports car.

other sad thing is that on M3 (E36) discussion board people/enthusiasts think we have an outdated suspension??? i suggest some of you M3 downplayers click that log out button on your upper right and sign in on any of the f-body forums. you will fit right in.

word handling does not constitute just lateral g's or lap times or slalom. it is a very broad term. example: i can tell you buick lesabre handles a shit load better than either M3 or vette over expansions joints or on any of NJ roads. in other words it is not just performance.

http://www.findthebesthere.com/mansfield_jayne3080604.jpg FTW

[Serious]

what is really sad is that we are comparing GM's NEW sports car model to 10 year old german performance non-sports car.

other sad thing is that on M3 (E36) discussion board people/enthusiasts think we have an outdated suspension??? i suggest some of you M3 downplayers click that log out button on your upper right and sign in on any of the f-body forums. you will fit right in.

word handling does not constitute just lateral g's or lap times or slalom. it is a very broad term. example: i can tell you buick lesabre handles a shit load better than either M3 or vette over expansions joints or on any of NJ roads. in other words it is not just performance.




ya but the NEW GM SPORTS CAR absolutely blows our 10year old cars out of the water by at least 10years.

e36m3 suspension isnt outdated (whatever that means since some of the best technologies are from early 1900's anyways) but e36 m3 suspension isnt designed as well as other more true sports cars. ONe reason is the front suspension when lowered to a point where the lower control arm is level or near level instead of downward pointing (ie stock ride height) when the suspension is compressed it will actually cause the front tires to gain positive camber (bad thing when your trying to go around corners fast). So in a way to compensate for this you have to alot of static negative camber up front so when negative camber is lost due to compression of the suspension the car still handles well. The bad part about running lots of static negative camber is that it really screws up the insides of tires. With alot of other "sports cars" including corvettes this isnt so much of a problem due to double A arm style suspension.

Thats my biggest problem with the suspension in our cars.

I also have 2 smaller problems. 1 is the lack of adjustability with stock components and 2 is the general lack of quality with the stock suspension components which fail anywhere from 45k-65k miles on average. which is completely unacceptable for you to have to completely replace 80% of the suspension components every few years a 50K car. Luckily both these problems are easily solvent with quality aftermarket parts.

BTW c6 z06's are in a completely different league then any m3. hell most people are comparing them to 200k lambo's and ferrari's. Blows any stock m3 out of the water in every category IMO.

[malter]

i honestly think that all the power that car makes creates a certain bias in people to think everything else has to be better.

powerwise it is in completely different league, no doubt, but we are not comparing 3.0L I-6 to 7.0L V8. we are comparing handling in all its meaning.

[Serious]

i honestly think that all the power that car makes creates a certain bias in people to think everything else has to be better.

powerwise it is in completely different league, no doubt, but we are not comparing 3.0L I-6 to 7.0L V8. we are comparing handling in all its meaning.

have you driven a c6 z06? steering is a little light for me but ride quality, grip, nice crisp turn, lack of body roll all feel really really good feeling to me. IMO 500hp doesnt make a car easier to drive.

[AlpinaM3]

Yeah Yeah yeah, outdated suspension...... so the m3 has rubber tires, multi link, adjustable camber & toe front / rear, independent all the way round in stock form. Modifications can include adj camber plates on the front plus you can install adj rear trailing arms on the rear for more and coilovers for an even more adjustable range.
So what is so out dated about an E36 M3 suspension? Do the E46s use something so very different. Out dated to me means solid rear axel and perhaps a McPherson strut cartridge on the front. I see new materials used in the new cars but not that much difference. Am I missing something?

What is impressive to me is that when BMW designed this thing it was the first of it kind in the line up. 11 years later I can replace every component in my "outdated suspension" with new stuff that is MO better. That seems to me to be very forward thinking from BMW that has been passed to other models in the lineup.

As others have stated in this thread, it is the driver- the car does not drive itself. It would be interesting to compare an M3 to current cars of equal HP and rubber to see what happens. I would be willing to bet a M3 would hold its own not to mention how a modified one would to. It is so subjective.

[Serious]

actually stock m3's dont have adjustable front camber or caster.

rear suspension has a small camber adjustment as well as a toe adjustment.

[AlpinaM3]

I know you cant adj castor but front toe is adj by changing the length of the tie rods. The tie rods are adj evenly with the steering box centered.
From Clinton's Manual. I would be pissed if toe could not be adj.

[Serious]

I know you cant adj castor but front toe is adj by changing the length of the tie rods. The tie rods are adj evenly with the steering box centered.
From Clinton's Manual. I would be pissed if toe could not be adj.

re-read my post i never said front toe wasnt adjustable. front camber isnt adjustable.

[JClark]

The z06 is faster. The e36 m3 is easier to drive at the limit.

^^Bingo.

Spent hours in the drivers' seat of both on multiple road courses, and I'd have to agree. The Z is faster, but I still have more fun in the M3.

The Z06 has grip everywhere and abundant power to boot, but seating position, driver's view, pedals, and steering feel suck.

[fsmtnbiker]

Out dated to me means solid rear axel and perhaps a McPherson strut cartridge on the front.

Have you looked at the front suspension in your M3 lately? You just proved his point...