first track day lastst ends quickly [Archive] - Bimmerforums

autocross97

07-29-2006, 11:51 PM

hey guys i went to the track today for an scca school at the rock aka rockingham speedway. i just installed my ground control coilovers on thursday and was pumped to finally test it out. here are a few pictures of the install.
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j244/autocross97/6171ba57.jpg
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j244/autocross97/9937d7c7.jpg
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j244/autocross97/e5a05935.jpg

after showing up at the track and enjoing every second of my first secesssion on the my second scession ended extremely early, when my car made contact with an infeild gurdrail. here are some pictures of the damage.
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j244/autocross97/aa8080cb.jpg
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j244/autocross97/IMG_8851.jpg
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j244/autocross97/IMG_8856.jpg
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j244/autocross97/IMG_8859.jpg

now my question is to those of you who may have done the same or similar to your car. do i try and fix this or do i part it out? if it is a part out how much suld i expext to get out of it? a little mor info on the damage passenger front lower contorl arme = toast, front swaybar = toast, broke the passenger side engine mount, broke both transmition bushings, fender =toast, radiator is dont oh and last but not least the fraim rail is slightly bent mabe 3 inches off line. i dont know what the fuck to do please help me.

SeeMeFly

07-30-2006, 12:11 AM

damn that looks fucked up. haha but i know that.. i took the pictures haha

drivea328

07-30-2006, 12:11 AM

damn man...what's up with that tire on the bottlecap? hate to hear that happening to you, let me know if you want to sell the interior.

AirDoc

07-30-2006, 12:14 AM

Dude....sorry to hear about your accident. Give me a buzz....I've got some ideas for you.

Goon

07-30-2006, 12:27 AM

That looks tough to fix. bad luck, hope it gets sorted soon!

Tochenzo

07-30-2006, 12:35 AM

damn that sucks sorry to see that happen on your first track day :( hopefully it doesn't discourage you from doing future track events

as for the car, i'm not sure how much you'd be able to part out

autocross97

07-30-2006, 01:10 AM

damn that sucks sorry to see that happen on your first track day :( hopefully it doesn't discourage you from doing future track events

as for the car, i'm not sure how much you'd be able to part out

hell no it was a blast until it happened that shit happened, i'll be back as soon as i get a new car or fix this shit

autocross97

07-30-2006, 01:11 AM

Dude....sorry to hear about your accident. Give me a buzz....I've got some ideas for you.

thanks i'll call you tomorrow

peteraq1

07-30-2006, 05:57 AM

As long as you made it out alright, U can get another car.

325isracer

07-30-2006, 06:41 AM

Sorry to hear about your car, cant really tell that well from the pictures but it seems like the rear bumper/fenders are fine, and it looks like you just messed up the front bumper, sideskirt and fender (cosmetically), but if you can live with the cosmetic damage for a little bit you should just replace the important parts like suspension that were damaged and then worry about the exterior, good luck and btw your rims are sick.

-Mike

Julian

07-30-2006, 09:14 AM

If the frame rail is bent I wouldn't bother trying to fix it. Chances are the car will never feel the same again.

sandspeed

07-30-2006, 09:42 AM

That damage is repairable. The engine and tranny mounts are designed to give like that, so as to avoid real damage to subframe and unibody, as well as the actual tranny and engine. The fender is an easy fix. It should be screwed and spot-welded on, and you can pick one up for around $80 if you look around. The frame rail is available from the dealership. I think it's around $150 or less. The big problem would be getting the rail cut and the new one welded on, while making sure the body stays straight. You'll obviously have to remove the engine and tranny, but that's an optimum time to modify.

GGray

07-30-2006, 09:48 AM

if the frame is bent 3 inhces...Thats more than a little...I would say get another chassis and transfer parts....Hey you now have a "parts car"

Bummer...the important thing is you did not get hurt..And more than likely learned something...

orthm

07-30-2006, 11:23 AM

Sorry to hear about your situation.. Crashing always sucks. Bending up a car at your first track event is even worse... Did this happen in turn 3, going into the infield? Important thing is that you walked away.

CABimmer

07-30-2006, 11:27 AM

dont you have insurance? I dont see a cage, so I assume this was a DE. you should be covered.

autocross97

07-30-2006, 09:27 PM

Did this happen in turn 3, going into the infield? Important thing is that you walked away.

how did you know it happened into turn 3?

yeah i cant realy rmember how hard we hit (me and my instructor) he says it wasnt bad and neither of us are stiff the moring after. but on the other hand the corse workers told my dad it was like an 8 out of 10 crash yeah that was before they knew he was my dad.

autocross97

07-30-2006, 09:28 PM

dont you have insurance? I dont see a cage, so I assume this was a DE. you should be covered.

i only have liability so there is no use in getting the insurance involved on this one.

CABimmer

07-30-2006, 09:36 PM

ouch

autocross97

07-30-2006, 09:47 PM

damn man...what's up with that tire on the bottlecap? hate to hear that happening to you, let me know if you want to sell the interior.

i must have looked over your post earlier....sorry. the tire on the bottle cap is a hooshire race slick i had to have my friend bring it to the track from home it was the smallest tire i had and since all the suspention was pushed back i needed the smallest diameter tire so i culd turn the tires and get the car on a tralier. as for the interior i will likely be trying to sell it and other shit off the car so send me an email and i can get some pictures for you. autocross97@yahoo.com

1996 328ti

07-30-2006, 10:53 PM

Sorry for the mishap but this is your first track event?
Coilovers and R-comps? :dunno

Rigmaster

07-30-2006, 11:04 PM

Damn man, sorry to see/hear about that. The Rock can be a BAAAAAAAD place to have an off- good thing you were not hurt.

If I understand you correctly, the frame rail that is bent ~3 inches is where the bumper shock attaches, correct?? If that's the case, then it's not so bad- you should be able to fix it- or get a body shop with a frame machine to get it pulled back so you can bolt the fender/bumper, etc back on it. If this is your track car, then you can piece it back together and not worry too much about fit and finish- if you can handle the fact that it's not perfect.

Where are you in NC?? those shop pics look SWEET.......

Bret.

orthm

07-30-2006, 11:14 PM

I figured it was 3 because there's not enough damage for you to have smacked the concrete on the outside of the track and there's only one other corner on the infield where you can hit on the passenger side and it's not as fast as 3 is. The Rock was my first track event. I had been auto-xing for a couple years in F-Stock (pony car class) in a Mustang. Lost the brakes 7 minutes into my first session at turn 3. Ended up going through 3 sideways... Drifting is nothing new to any Mustang driver... That was the last event I ever drive with stock brakes on the Mustang. Went to Baer Racings A Sedan kit and got bumped to CP for Solo2...

Just be happy you didn't wad up a new car. It's been done before. A $40,000 car on Saturday morning, scrap metal by Saturday night... Someone stuffed a new 350-Z a few months ago. They lifted off the throttle while they were in the banking. Rule number 1 when driving the Rock, do not lift in the banking.... You WILL hit the wall.

Best thing to do now is understand what happened so you will not make the same mistake again.

how did you know it happened into turn 3?

yeah i cant realy rmember how hard we hit (me and my instructor) he says it wasnt bad and neither of us are stiff the moring after. but on the other hand the corse workers told my dad it was like an 8 out of 10 crash yeah that was before they knew he was my dad.

autocross97

07-31-2006, 12:19 PM

Sorry for the mishap but this is your first track event?
Coilovers and R-comps? :dunno

yeah first track event and the car dose well did have suspention (i upgraded because i was riding on stock parts with 180,000 miles on them) as for the tires i was using street tires on the track, i just had to pull out the 15" stock wheel that happened to have a hooshire on it just because it had more clearance around my crushed up fender than the 17" wheel i crashed with.

autocross97

07-31-2006, 12:27 PM

I Lost the brakes 7 minutes into my first session at turn 3.

Someone stuffed a new 350-Z a few months ago.

wow this is strange but it has kinda been in the back of my mind that the brakes were not up to the task of racing. i had the car for like 5 months and i'm guessing the previous owner put some pos brake pads on from autozone or something.

in the session before mine some guy with a realy nice 350z in the intermidiate/advanced run groupe went off the track in the same place i did and he was lucky thow and got stopped in the gravol pit like inches from the gurdrail.

autocross97

07-31-2006, 12:33 PM

Where are you in NC?? those shop pics look SWEET.......

Bret.

i live in pinehurst the shop is a local guys that dose realy nice body work. he fixed my friends m3 after he did some cosmetic damage to it. so he let me use the lift since he almoste never dose. i wish it was only cosmetic damage that was done to my car but the mechanical damage is what conserns me. i think i would loose less money if i part out mine and buy a new one than try to fix this one.

Mr.M

07-31-2006, 12:54 PM

Part it out. It will cost you less to part this out and apply the money to a new car than it would to fix this one. Oh and tires make the biggest difference in the car's handling. Running r-comps your first time out is a terrible idea, and if that was your only option, you should have waited.

Next time, get some high performance tires that that are known to communicate with you at the limit. It also looks like you mismatched tires - also a bad idea.

Cyrix2k

07-31-2006, 12:57 PM

well, I would atleast get an estimate from the bodyshop before parting it out... or you could turn this car into a dedicated track car :)

orthm

07-31-2006, 12:59 PM

The OEM brakes (Pagid) will work just fine on track like Rockingham since it's really isn't that hard on brakes compared to a place like Summit Point. They also work very well for Solo2. The Pagid Sport compound works very well on track. If the PO put the cheap Autozone pads on, go get some Pagids. The difference will be night and day. You would probably pick up a couple tenths on an auto-x run just with good pads. I even tried Performance Friction HP pads and didn't like them, no bite compared to the Pagids.. The 90 compound does work well however.

A combination of soft brakes and an early turn in would be enough to get you into trouble in turn 3.. You did change the brake fluid before the event didn't you? Did your instructor have any comments?

wow this is strange but it has kinda been in the back of my mind that the brakes were not up to the task of racing. i had the car for like 5 months and i'm guessing the previous owner put some pos brake pads on from autozone or something.

in the session before mine some guy with a realy nice 350z in the intermidiate/advanced run groupe went off the track in the same place i did and he was lucky thow and got stopped in the gravol pit like inches from the gurdrail.

GGray

07-31-2006, 01:03 PM

orthm

07-31-2006, 01:17 PM

Agree 100%, it's easy to pick out the auto-x'ers when riding along... It takes a few sessions to smooth things out. Then on Sunday, we take the cones away. That really messes up the hard core auto-xer, but they shouldn't be using the cones as turning points anyway since us instructors like to punt them all over the place ;-)

Bent three inches..Thats a gonner...part it out buy a new one...

And don't overdrive the first week end at the track ;)

Road and autocross are way diffrent in transition speeds entering corners. Most autocross people tend to turn the car in way to fast and early on a road course causing the car to snap spin.

Rigmaster

07-31-2006, 02:32 PM

Bent three inches..Thats a gonner...part it out buy a new one...
And don't overdrive the first week end at the track ;)

Road and autocross are way diffrent in transition speeds entering corners. Most autocross people tend to turn the car in way to fast and early on a road course causing the car to snap spin.

Funny that you can diagnose a totalled car without even seeing it in person.... ;)

Like I said, if it's bent 3 inches at the end of the frame rail- where the bumper shock mounts, then it's not really that much, and not hard to pull it straight. If the frame rail is bent 3 inches where the front subframe mounts- then it's ALOT worse, and probably not worth fixing. The front section of the frame rails are designed to give, and bend, and be replaced if necessary. Someone else mentioned that BMW sells a replacement partial frame rail for this.

Also, if you guys would read his posts before assuming- he said he was driving on street tires NOT R-comps- he mentioned a couple of times that the tire seen on the RF wheel was one they put on there in order to move the car around after the wreck- it was the smallest diameter tire they could find and just happened to be a Hoosier R-comp.

Bret

orthm

07-31-2006, 02:48 PM

Hey Rigmaster,
What's up, long time no email... This car might make a nice spec E36 rally-x car...

GGray

07-31-2006, 04:15 PM

Well, based on the fact he said he broke the engine and the tranny mounts, and bent the control arm, I would bet the frame rail is tweeked. If he does all the scut work himself he might be able to save it, to fix it properly the engine and tranny would have to come out and the front would need to be stripped bare to weld a new frame rail on the car. Most of the time if you bend a Steel control arm the rear part of the control arm, where the bushing is, bends the floor/frame rail of the car...

When you add all the little crap up the money goes fast...

I've built a few wrecked cars...Its a PITA...

autocross97

07-31-2006, 06:21 PM

Also, if you guys would read his posts before assuming- he said he was driving on street tires NOT R-comps- he mentioned a couple of times that the tire seen on the RF wheel was one they put on there in order to move the car around after the wreck- it was the smallest diameter tire they could find and just happened to be a Hoosier R-comp.

Bret

its about damn time someone picked up on that!!!!!!

autocross97

07-31-2006, 06:23 PM

You did change the brake fluid before the event didn't you? Did your instructor have any comments?

i changed it about a month ago and it hasent been driven much since then. the instructor just said why didnt you slow down?

onrails318

07-31-2006, 06:27 PM

as long as the only parts damaged are bolt on things and does not include the subframe(s) AND you can do the work... you will save tons of money buying used suspension pieces etc. and spending the next couple of months piecing it back together. sorry bro we all make mistakes even mario andretti crashes.

GGray

07-31-2006, 06:54 PM

He's right! I'm an instructor, for ten years..And every once in awhile I get the "red mist" and overcook a corner and spin le car ....:D

My friend has a theory, its not mine.. Here's his theroy
"you don't know how fast you can go till you wreck, then youv'e gone to fast"

If you have the time and spare car..its cheaper to do the work..unless its got a bent chassis. if so I would start from scratch..

Ben328i

07-31-2006, 07:04 PM

I could use a new steering wheel. Mine is kind of banged up. Like someone wore barbwire gloves and drove the thing.

APKhoas

07-31-2006, 07:09 PM

If there's one thing we drill our instructors on, its keeping well within the envelope in the early run groups. That's a nasty way to end a track event.

So, lets think about a plan. First, figure the repair/replace equation:
What is the replacement cost of your '92 325is with 180K? I'm guessing maybe $5K? Whatever it is, the cost of repairs may be be more than that. Even if you do a lot of the work, the frame rail replacement, body work, and parts are going to be close to that number. Having any major portion of the work done by a shop will run the number above $5K in a heartbeat. Its hard, but you have to be really hard nosed about this.

If you can replace the car with a nice alternative, and part out the good bits of your 325is, then that may be a better bet. I know it sux, but its better to figure these numbers now that to wind up later with $10K in a $5K car. Plenty of guys have found this out the hard way.

orthm

07-31-2006, 08:00 PM

As long as you used good brake fluid, that shouldn't have been a problem. Did this happen late in the session? It is important to figure out what happened. Did the brake pad compound give up? Tires too hot, just not enough braking.

Good thing this was your first school. The most dangerous ones I think are events 4-6. At that point, the new driver is getting comfortable with the speed, confidence is rising, and the corner speeds are picking up, but the skill level to sense what the car is doing and act accordingly just isn't as sharp yet. I laugh when I watch the in-car video I have from my first few events. I thought I was flying at the time, now I wonder why I was going so slow... Just think how much worse it would have been if you were going 20 mph faster...

i changed it about a month ago and it hasent been driven much since then. the instructor just said why didnt you slow down?

autocross97

07-31-2006, 08:37 PM

yeah i have been trying to figure out what went wrong.....if there is something else that played a part in the end result. thus far my father and i are wondering it the cheap brake pads the previous owner put on the car could have failed. they still had considerable amount of material on them, but if they had not been built for heat/speed? what do you guys think its just a theory at this point. i don't know if it can be be proved or not, any suggestions?

DaveCN

07-31-2006, 09:14 PM

Really, you should have known what you had brake wise going in there. That is on you, guy, not the prior owner.

Bad mistake.

Hope you can fix it.

putnampunk

07-31-2006, 10:52 PM

wow this is strange but it has kinda been in the back of my mind that the brakes were not up to the task of racing. i had the car for like 5 months and i'm guessing the previous owner put some pos brake pads on from autozone or something.

you installed ground controls, but never cared to take 10 minutes to change pads?

:shifty :shifty

costly mistake. sorry you can to learn the hard way.

autocross97

08-01-2006, 12:04 AM

you installed ground controls, but never cared to take 10 minutes to change pads?

:shifty :shifty

costly mistake. sorry you can to learn the hard way.

you got that right i looked at them and they had plenty of material left on them so i never thought it was in issue. damn was i wrong!!!! that is going to be the first thing i upgrade on my next e36.

sellz

08-01-2006, 12:09 AM

sorry to hear about your accident...

autocross97

08-01-2006, 12:16 AM

well guys i guess its gunna be patred out so if you would like anything off the car send me an email and i will get you a picture and a price as soon as i can.

orthm

08-01-2006, 09:17 AM

Good luck in the search for a new ride... I always ask my students several questions on Saturday morning as I'm walking around their car checking tires and other things....

Is this your daily driver?
What air pressure are you running F/R?
What brake pads?
What suspension set up?
If this isn't their first school, have they ever had an off track experience? If so, what happened and why?
Do you know what "Booth feet in" means?
If the car has traction control, has it ever been switched off?
Do you know what threshold braking is?
Have you ever engaged the ABS?

If they have been to the track before, what would they want to focus on this time?

The answers give me clues as to what level I should set things at and what the knowledge and attitude of the driver is. It is suprising to find that some drivers think AWD, traction control, or ABS will prevent them from spinning or going off track. Or that just because they have gone 100 mph down the highway, they understand what's involved in going through a turn at 100.

"I don't know" is not an acceptable answer to most of these.

The key thing to think about is that you are putting yourself, your instructor and your car at risk. The more you know about the car and yourself, the safer you'll be.

One other bit of info for new track drivers, leave the suspension alone. For your first year or so of events, the car is better than you are, just accept that and move on. Spend the $1000 on going to track schools rather than making changes to a system you don't fully understand yet. The stock suspension will be the most forgiving of driver mistakes. As you go to stiffer suspensions, and lower profile tires, the transition from being in control to "oh shit" gets more abrupt, easier to cross, and less tolerant of mistakes.

StackTrack

08-01-2006, 11:49 AM

Please explain what happened in more detail... I'll I've gathered is that it was turn three... which actually, depending on what group you run with, could be a couple different spots.

And btw... the 350z that hit the wall in the banking did not lift in the turn... he went in too fast and too low, overloading the right rear suspension. I've seen (and more importantly listened to) the in-car video.

kyle242gt

08-01-2006, 12:02 PM

Bummer man. I just got back from a track day at Thunderhill (in my 240Z) and the instructors really did the litany orthm (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/member.php?u=78412) mentioned.

Serious downer. I am PUMPED to go back ASAP, but this is a sobering reminder that when you track, you really do run the risk of effing something up.

Keep your chin up, get back in the game. Plus, then you'll learn the most valuable high performance driving lesson: Save it for the track!

Good luck!

Mr.M

08-01-2006, 12:24 PM

Yeah at least you did this on the track, it could have been much worse on the street.

Specter325

08-01-2006, 01:50 PM

I hope everything turns out for you but this is a hard lesson to learn at school number 1. I am in Charlotte and was looking for a car the other day for another person and there is a 92 325i in Mooresville on Craigslist for $3500. From the listing it seems well taken care of and has numerous newer pars on it. I also know of another 92 325i with oil in the water in Atlanta. Maroon with a sunroof. Interior is trashed and the owner had just replaced all the brake components all the way around. According to the mechanic he was into the venting on the front rotors before he changed the stuff. Also is an automatic. Nutcase owner threw out $1700 as a price for it but that is way too much seeing the way he lets things get before he fixes them. This is a $6-800 dollar car but it will take a few people teling him that before he believes it. But you could take a shot at it. Bimmerworld found their $10k racecar for $1000 when they bought it and it ran. If you take a little time you can find a runner for $1500 and switch over the good stuff and part out the rest. If you need to pull everything off and get rid of the current chassis first you can find places that will take the stripped body for the cost of the tow. I know of one here in Charlotte. If you really want to track something consider an E30. Much cheaper to acquire and get going and those things have become basically disposable. But they are still great cars.

As an instructor I will chime in with a few of the other posters. You really need to know exactly what is on the car as far as consumable parts(brakes, tires) and the age and condition of all of the suspension pieces and bushings. For example a failing rear trailing arm bushing will cause rear toe changes under load which could lead to a snap spin type situation. Another thing to think about is that your ability do guide the car where the instructor tells you and brake well may be fine but your ability to interpret what the car is telling you will lag by a large amount. And your ability to adjust your line/speed/inputs with that feedback from the car is practically nill at this point. It just takes seat time and more seat time to learn. Autox is fun and teaches a little car control but you do not have the high speed experience that the track will give you and therfore should be very aware of tracks that do not have a lot of runoff room. CMP down in Kershaw is an excellent place to learn as it has only one real runoff impared turn and that is turn three. Otherwise it is a pretty benign place to learn to drive. Now sure you can ball your car up anywhere but of the 6 tracks I have been to CMP is probably the best in regard to runoff. With Roebling being second. As long as you pay close attention in turn nine.

Anyway if I can help you in any way let me know.

RB

orthm

08-01-2006, 03:02 PM

I'd second the E30 recommendation. I had one of those for a few years. Very fun car to drive on track. I actually enjoyed the E30 more than my current E36 on track. It's lighter than an E36, my E30 with half a tank of gas and full roll cage tipped the scales at 2762 pounds. I could have easily dropped another 150 pounds with race seats and removal of the ballast/sound deadening on the trunk floor. Even more if I removed the AC, but there's NFW I'm removing AC on a street car here in NC. They are cheaper to buy and insure, and the parts are even cheaper than E36 parts.. In driving them back to back, you can really feel the weight of the E36.

AirDoc

08-01-2006, 04:22 PM

orthm

08-01-2006, 05:03 PM

+1....E30's are a ball to drive...I'm going back to the basics of owning a boxy track car!!..Woo Hoo!!

Yup, that was my snow car as well :D. What a blast to drive. If I build another track car, it will most likely be an E30. I like my E36 for the street, but every time I drove that E30 on track, I was grinning the whole time..

autocross97

08-01-2006, 07:02 PM

while i under stand what you are saying about the e30 and i would coincide buying one because it would be cool to be able to afford to build it up myself i also don't think i am ready to have a car that is fully dedicated to the track. i mean i start college in a few weeks and i don't know if i could make that work for me. the other thing is that i fell in love with my e36 it was a blast to drive and it was respected by everyone, i mean what other car can you spend 4500 bucks on and everyone thinks it cost you at least 10 grand. i will keep all my options open at this point tho and i know for sure that i will not leave the BMW family.

orthm

08-01-2006, 09:12 PM

I personally don't give a crap about respect from others who "respect" you because they think you spent money on a car. They aren't worth the time to impress. Sort of like sticking M3 badges on standard 3 series cars. The people who are fooled by that aren't worth your time, and you look like a fool to anyone who knows what they are looking at.

While an E36 may get you this respect at the high school level, you'll be a small fish in a big pond at the college level. Depending on where you go, you'll be up against brand new cars of every make. Your E36 will be invisable to those who determine status by what you drive.

Given that, buy what you will enjoy driving and go to as many track events as you can.