HELP! S50 Cam swap problem

[TRUEDIABLO]

I just finished swapping S50 cams into my '93 325 and now when I start it it sounds like a diesel engine running, it's running rough, rich and ver loud in the valvetrain. If I rev it there's very little power and it won't really rev above 3k or so then dies.
I didn't get software, think that could be a problem? PLEASE HELP, I really don't want to get it town to the shop and pay them more.
HELP ME!!
Thanks

[BMDubs]

Sounds like your cams are out of proper timing or the Vanos is not installed properly. When I first installed my cams and started the car it was very rough and loud from the valvetrain also but after 2 minutes and the oil circulating, all was fine. Any CEL??

[TRUEDIABLO]

timing could be it, really not sure. I've done the vanos before without a problem (doesn't mean I did it right this time). As for CEL it gave me a knock sensor (which was probably old) and a lambda sensor (not sure what that means or could be).
Thanks for responding

[BMDubs]

Lambada is o2 sensor... As for the cam swap, did you have the cam locking tools in place to ensure peoper cam timing? You dont need software to make this mod work, software just makes it effective...

[TRUEDIABLO]

I didn't have the locking tool. I'm thinking that's the problem and I'll have to go back it and try to reset the timing. Unless anyone knows a better and/or easlier way to do the timing I'll just follow the Bentley manual.
Thanks again

[93nitemare]

I didn't have the locking tool. I'm thinking that's the problem and I'll have to go back it and try to reset the timing. Unless anyone knows a better and/or easlier way to do the timing I'll just follow the Bentley manual.
Thanks again

the better/easier way is to use the cam locking tool so the lobes stay where there supposed to be pointing. i would bet money it's your cam timing.

since we are on the cam swap topic my buddy and i did the s50 cams the other week. and when the car is idling and i blurp the throttle body's throttle real quick it (sounds like it's coming from the vanos area) it sounds kinda like marbles in a can for a quick instant. i mean it only sounds like that for an instant when the rpms are rising then when it's coming back down to idle. if say i hold it at 4000rpm it doesn't make the sound at all. when it's idling also it sounds fine? i can't recall if it ever made that sound or not b4?:confused

i went on the pelican parts website and it says something to the extent of rotating the vanos chain all the way clockwise b4 you but the vanos gear on the intake cam gear? well we didn't do this would that be causing this problem or shouldn't i worry about it. i mean the car is running like a raped ape....no hessitation, can feel the vanos kicking in and hear it by the different exhaust note, pulls hard all the way to 7000rpm.

[maritusE36]

you defenitely should not be running a stock 325 chip with the S50 cams, as the lift AND duration is quite different from the stock M50 cams, so timing it without the cam chip is going to be pretty much impossible. Also, the M50 motors used a different hydraulic lifter then all of the other E36's. In my research on this, I have seen many quote that you should really update the lifters to the other style that all the other E36's used to avoid some lifter noises. Not saying it won't run fine without it, just a few thoughts of mine on the subject.

[motoracr22]

Your knock sensor fault isn't because it's old, it is because of the excessive noise that you are describing. Get the cams set up, fault should be clear.

[hellrot325]

you defenitely should not be running a stock 325 chip with the S50 cams, as the lift AND duration is quite different from the stock M50 cams, so timing it without the cam chip is going to be pretty much impossible. Also, the M50 motors used a different hydraulic lifter then all of the other E36's. In my research on this, I have seen many quote that you should really update the lifters to the other style that all the other E36's used to avoid some lifter noises. Not saying it won't run fine without it, just a few thoughts of mine on the subject. I agree with the s/w issue, but you ae incorrect on the lifters. Al E36 lifters are the same, they just went to hardened lifters late 95 for both non-M and M. Lifter upgrade is about $500 for 24 lifters.

[TboneM3]

I agree with the s/w issue, but you ae incorrect on the
lifters. Al E36 lifters are the same, they just went to hardened lifters late 95
for both non-M and M. Lifter upgrade is about $500 for 24 lifters.

Thats actually not true, I wanted to replace my lifters, and all that pelican
and others (dealer too) sell is different than the OE M50 lifters.

The oil valve is different and I mic'ed them cause they didn't sit correctly in
the cam tray and it turned out to be a couple 1/100s too tall, so my cam tray would rock back and forth:(

They also look entirely different.

As far as the cam job is concerned, how many miles do you have?

[Kos-motate139]

It just sounds like the cam timing is off. My M52 with m3 cams ran and idled fine with a stock 413 ecu and the chip from a '95 325...it just makes oh so much more power with the tuning. :)

The crank position sensor being off could cause it to act that way too...

[hellrot325]

Thats actually not true, I wanted to replace my lifters, and all that pelican
and others (dealer too) sell is different than the OE M50 lifters.

The oil valve is different and I mic'ed them cause they didn't sit correctly in
the cam tray and it turned out to be a couple 1/100s too tall, so my cam tray would rock back and forth:(

They also look entirely different.

As far as the cam job is concerned, how many miles do you have? Yeah, multi tasking here at work and of course I was describing the retainers. :stickoutt

[SergeK]

It has nothing to do with the software, the cam timing itself is off. You can run the cams without software, but to get the full potential, you should run the software.

[TRUEDIABLO]

Well, I'm going to take it all apart today and try to readjust the timing of the cams using the bentley manual's method and hope that take care of it. I'll keep everyone posted. Thanks for the replys.

[TRUEDIABLO]

Well I took it all back apart and adjusted the timing, now it's a bit better and doesn't sound like a diesel running but it's still hella rough and lacks power, also something's making a strange sound up front when driving, but only when driving so I can't figure out what it is.
It acts like there's a massive vacuum leak somewhere but I can't find one. Not really sure now. It's smooth at like 2-3k and above, but that's just revving. Sounds like a chopper at idle (feels like one too a.k.a. rough). I got the smell of sulfer at one point but that went away and may have just been from first running it.
I get no codes now.
I may just limp it to my mechanic and pay what it probably would have cost to have them install the cams.
One bad thought that comes to mind is that perhaps a valve got bent when I ran it before readjusting the timing today.
Any more ideas?
Thanks for the help everyone.

[hellrot325]

Well I took it all back apart and adjusted the timing, now it's a bit better and doesn't sound like a diesel running but it's still hella rough and lacks power, also something's making a strange sound up front when driving, but only when driving so I can't figure out what it is.
It acts like there's a massive vacuum leak somewhere but I can't find one. Not really sure now. It's smooth at like 2-3k and above, but that's just revving. Sounds like a chopper at idle (feels like one too a.k.a. rough). I got the smell of sulfer at one point but that went away and may have just been from first running it.
I get no codes now.
I may just limp it to my mechanic and pay what it probably would have cost to have them install the cams.
One bad thought that comes to mind is that perhaps a valve got bent when I ran it before readjusting the timing today.
Any more ideas?
Thanks for the help everyone. Doubt you bent a valve, unless the timing wwas seriously off. If the crank was at TDC, and the cams were clsoe, no way. I don't know how many miles you have driven but it takes awhile for the ECU to adjust...when I did my HG job I had the battery disconnected for days. The car ran so rough...sounded like a truck motor...for a about 2-3 miles and then smoothed out. Scary...

Timing is not that hard on a Vanos motor. Cam's and crank at TDC...easy. Why you need the cam tools.

[SergeK]

drive it around for a few miles, maybe the ecu needs to adjust, if not, try to adjust it one more time.

[93nitemare]

bump on this also...sorry for thread jacking. well it has to do witht he s50 cams so i guess it really isn't thread jacking.:)

since we are on the cam swap topic my buddy and i did the s50 cams the other week. and when the car is idling and i blurp the throttle body's throttle real quick it (sounds like it's coming from the vanos area) it sounds kinda like marbles in a can for a quick instant. i mean it only sounds like that for an instant when the rpms are rising then when it's coming back down to idle. if say i hold it at 4000rpm it doesn't make the sound at all. when it's idling also it sounds fine? i can't recall if it ever made that sound or not b4?:confused

i went on the pelican parts website and it says something to the extent of rotating the vanos chain all the way clockwise b4 you but the vanos gear on the intake cam gear? well we didn't do this would that be causing this problem or shouldn't i worry about it. i mean the car is running like a raped ape....no hessitation, can feel the vanos kicking in and hear it by the different exhaust note, pulls hard all the way to 7000rpm.[/QUOTE]

[TRUEDIABLO]

I've driven it a bit but that's not solving it. Could it be because I have a TMS chip (non-m3 cam chip, normal chip) in there? I'll probably try the stock chip and see.

[SergeK]

Nah, doubt its the Chip thing. Youre timing is probably still off a little.

[93nitemare]

bump on this also...sorry for thread jacking. well it has to do witht he s50 cams so i guess it really isn't thread jacking.:)

since we are on the cam swap topic my buddy and i did the s50 cams the other week. and when the car is idling and i blurp the throttle body's throttle real quick it (sounds like it's coming from the vanos area) it sounds kinda like marbles in a can for a quick instant. i mean it only sounds like that for an instant when the rpms are rising then when it's coming back down to idle. if say i hold it at 4000rpm it doesn't make the sound at all. when it's idling also it sounds fine? i can't recall if it ever made that sound or not b4?:confused

i went on the pelican parts website and it says something to the extent of rotating the vanos chain all the way clockwise b4 you but the vanos gear on the intake cam gear? well we didn't do this would that be causing this problem or shouldn't i worry about it. i mean the car is running like a raped ape....no hessitation, can feel the vanos kicking in and hear it by the different exhaust note, pulls hard all the way to 7000rpm.[/QUOTE]


bump again:D

[Geoff.T]

I'm having the same problem and running the same TMS chip as you. My motor actaully stalls at around 3,000 RPM. Please let me know what you find. I just installed them today and this crap happended. I'm going to check the timing tomorrow and check my timing chain tensioner. The chattering noise is definately coming from the chains. You can feel it under the valve covers. Oh yeah, the code came up as knock sensor 2 also.

[Geoff.T]

bump again:D[/QUOTE]

You need to turn the vanos clockwise all the way so that it will work to it's full potential. Meaning, you are not getting the full timing adjustment from the vanos.

[TboneM3]

bump again:D
You need to turn the vanos clockwise all the way so that it will work to it's full potential.
Meaning, you are not getting the full timing adjustment from the vanos.

Ya but unfortunately that doesn't solve anything if his car runs poorly in low rpms or in upper
because vanos doesn't not activate then.

[Geoff.T]

Ya but unfortunately that doesn't solve anything if his car runs poorly in low rpms or in upper
because vanos doesn't not activate then.

I was refering to 93nitemare... Bump

[SR20Fastback]

same thing happened to me, my vanos is off a couple teeth, and its retarding down low instead of advancing. car isn't running to its full potential and I've got a CEL for vanos mechanically jamming. oh well, going to fix it tuesday.

[TboneM3]

I was refering to 93nitemare... Bump

My bad

[maritusE36]

drive it around for a few miles, maybe the ecu needs to adjust, if not, try to adjust it one more time.

OBD1 ECU's do not have adaptation as the OBD2 cars do. They may change a few small things but they will never adapt anywhere near what the OBD2 cars do. OBD2 cars CAN run the S52 cams without software and be fine, they will just not get as much of a gain from them. OBD1 cars really cant, as they don't adapt.

[TRUEDIABLO]

Well I took the car into my mechanic last week and had them readjust the timing and vanos and now all is well.
The cams were slightly off in opposite directions and the vanos was off a couple teeth as well. They got it straightend out and now it's great. I've been running stock software and it still felt good, totally different after 4k RPM like everyone says. Today I put my TMS chip back in and I'm going to see how it does, it is NOT the M3 cam tuned chip, just the normal TMS chip.
So far besides the performance gains my mild pinging at about 3k RPM has gone away.
I will be getting a chip soon, waiting for a good deal on a used one ;)

[93nitemare]

same thing happened to me, my vanos is off a couple teeth, and its retarding down low instead of advancing. car isn't running to its full potential and I've got a CEL for vanos mechanically jamming. oh well, going to fix it tuesday.

i wonder if that has happened to me? it seems like you can't turn the sprockets but 1/4" b4 they stop?

do i need to take out the cam/crank timing chain tensioner to take the vanos unit back off? b/c the other day when i pulled it all back apart. i tried just pulling the vanos unit straight off the intake cam gear and it kept making the cam sprocket chains tight. i had the tension of the chain also by putting little allen keys i it like it says. i plan on ripping this apart one more time and fully checking all the torques on the cam sprockets and see if i can turn the sprockets allt he way right like everyone says.

in pelican parts tech article the first thing it talks about it taking the tension off the cam/crank sprockets. or is there a way to bypass this b/c i don't have that tensioner tool they are talking about.

[93nitemare]

bump anyone?

[93nitemare]

:help

[93nitemare]

please guys!! anyone who knows what the vanos sound slike when it's bad or has done this swap and has/had the same sounds i'm describing?!?

i will get sound clips.