Does 7 series have an M car?

[NotConvicted]

I'm sure this in a FAQ somewhere, so my apologies in advance for for asking a common question, but is there such a thing as an M7 or 7 series M car?

[MDabney]

I'm sorry to say but there is no such animal, from the factory... however, some of our very own members have built there own "M7" versions... ;)

I'm sure Bimmerhead, one of our Moderators with his ESS-SC, 6-speed 740 and Rob Levinson, our UUC Supporting Vendor with his "Project X" 750 will chime in shortly. But until then, you can check out their modded "M7's" in our 7-Series Forum.

[buttuh]

I think they made a prototype.. but not to be produced... I personally think an M7 is pointless. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

[Kevlar]

I think they decided to just do a 740 with a sport pkg instead of an actual M7.

[NotConvicted]

Thanks. Will check out the 7 series forum. A friend of mine saw a 7 series with an M badge Sunday at the Dolphins game, and was asking me if there was such a thing as an M7 . . .

[FrankW]

Originally posted by buttuh
I think they made a prototype.. but not to be produced... I personally think an M7 is pointless. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

i agree, besides M7 just doesn't sound right. 745i/760Li sport is good enough.

if one wants a fast luxury sedan, try 2003 S55 AMG.:alright

[///MDriver]

They won't do a seven series M for these reasons:

1) They would have to make it manual, and it isn't.
2) It's too big.
3) It wouldn't handle the way that an M car would.

This are the same reasons that they won't make an MX5.

[Dj Waffelz]

the reason why they did not make the m x 5 is because it is already being used by mazda.... and the 4.6is is the m version of teh x 5, the reason why tehre is no m 7 YET is because there is no demand for it.....

[buttuh]

Picturing my 80 year old grand father burning rubber in his M7... NOT going to happen.

[MDabney]

Originally posted by buttuh
Picturing my 80 year old grand father burning rubber in his M7... NOT going to happen.

Man are you way off on the demographics of the 7 Series driver... :nono ...I'm telling you man, please check out those 7's mentioned above in our 7 Series Forum.

{Note to self: Must resist banning buttuh... must resist banning buttuh... must resist banning buttuh...} :rolleyes: ;) j/k

[buttuh]

Aw crap I stepped on your toes...

I meant to say... "Picturing my 25 year old grand father doing donuts at Laguna Seca"

[MDabney]

OK, now that's much better young buck... you can stay here a little longer. :D

[fable]

I just got into a drunken arguement with a friend of mine the other day about this.

I wasnt too sure, but I told him I would put money down against there being an M7....glad I was right!

[buttuh]

:clap: yay! :clap:

[///MDriver]

the reason why they did not make the m x 5 is because it is already being used by mazda.... and the 4.6is is the m version of teh x 5, the reason why tehre is no m 7 YET is because there is no demand for it.....

I am sorry, but they would have gotten around it somehow. There is no M badge anywhere on or in the X5. The truck may feature some M Style stuff, such as gauges, and possibly a Motorsport engine. They will not call it an M because it doesn't embody what an M CAR is.


why tehre is no m 7 YET is because there is no demand for it.....

There is and has never been an M7. There is probably a niche demand for the car, I know 5 people that would but one, just people I know. BMW won't do it for the same reason Mercedes will. Mercedes AMG has 13(at my guess) models. BMW ///M is more prestigous. An M car has a manual as an option, the 7 and X5 don't (with the exception of the X5 3.0, which is by no means a performance model).

[Kevlar]

Originally posted by MDriver315


I am sorry, but they would have gotten around it somehow. There is no M badge anywhere on or in the X5. The truck may feature some M Style stuff, such as gauges, and possibly a Motorsport engine. They will not call it an M because it doesn't embody what an M CAR is.


This is a major reason... M cars have a manual tranny, a limited slip diff, and are performance oriented. Granted, the X5 4.6 is performance oriented but the car is not a manual and the engine was not designed for high revving fun like the rest of the M cars. It is sporty... but no M. Granted, it will still outclass half of the sports car market.

[FrankW]

Originally posted by MDriver315



There is and has never been an M7. There is probably a niche demand for the car, I know 5 people that would but one, just people I know. BMW won't do it for the same reason Mercedes will. Mercedes AMG has 13(at my guess) models. BMW ///M is more prestigous. An M car has a manual as an option, the 7 and X5 don't (with the exception of the X5 3.0, which is by no means a performance model).

hmm....are you saying that the M is more prestigious than the AMG or are you saying that the M is more prestigious than the regular Bimmer?

seems like you have the wrong idea on how to qualify a car to be prestigious than the other. Rolls Royce, Bently, Ferrari, Lambo, Aston Martin, etc. Those are prestigious cars, not Ms and not AMGs.

IMO M and AMG are equally prestigious.

if you are talking about production volumns, in 2002 BMW imported apprx 2500 units of the M5s while MB only imported apprx 600 units of the E55 AMGs. same case for the M3 (apprx 2500 + units) and C32 AMG (1200 + units), for the M-roadster and SLK 32 AMG. When compared model by model M has much larger production volumn than AMG does. As a whole M might even still top AMGs in production volumn. Not to mention M-roadster is assembled in south carolina.

[volfman]

Originally posted by Kevlar


This is a major reason... M cars have a manual tranny, a limited slip diff, and are performance oriented. Granted, the X5 4.6 is performance oriented but the car is not a manual and the engine was not designed for high revving fun like the rest of the M cars. It is sporty... but no M. Granted, it will still outclass half of the sports car market.

Not sure of anything about the 4.6, but I was under the impression that the X5 4.4i had the same engine as a 540i. If the 4.4 liter in the 540 is made to rev, I'm sure the X5 can rev :)

[FrankW]

Originally posted by volfman


Not sure of anything about the 4.6, but I was under the impression that the X5 4.4i had the same engine as a 540i. If the 4.4 liter in the 540 is made to rev, I'm sure the X5 can rev :)

not to mention the 4.4 in the X5 makes more hp and torque than the 540's 4.4, and they are the same engine.

[Bimmerhead]

I'm sure this in a FAQ somewhere, so my apologies in advance for for asking a common question, but is there such a thing as an M7 or 7 series M car?

NotConvicted,

There are NO "M" type E38 7 Series cars produced by the factory.
Some US BMW dealers were badging 740i Sport (short WB) cars as M7 when the buyer ordered the car with "shadowline trim" (no chrome around the windows) and bought the "sport" ( 18" ) wheel package when the order was placed.

As far as a TRUE M car, none exist and my counterpart "Supporting Vendor" Rob Levinson & I are the only people currently driving E38 7 series LONG WHEELBASE cars equipped with 6-Speed Manual transmissions.
The short wheelbase E38 740i Sport featured a manual transmission in Europe only.
I don't want to put words in Rob's mouth here.....but he and I agree that without a factory installed "S" type motor and related "M" type driveline and suspension components, our cars should NOT be badged as "M" cars.

BMW didn't want to go to the expense of certifying the E38 in manual configuration for the US market only to sell half a dozen units, so the US only got the automatic version of the car.

As far as driving fun, etc..... A large frame sedan like the E38 will never be as nimble as an E36 ~ E46, because of simple physics. On the other hand an E38 will sustain 140+ mph speeds all day long ( 2.93:1 diff) and keep the driver & friends in total comfort.

If you care to see some "special 7 Series" cars, check out Rob Levinson's 6-Speed 750iL Rob Levinson's 6-Speed 750iL Page (http://www.robertlevinson.com/seven/)
or my "Baby" a SC 6-Speed 740iL. Simeon's "Baby" Website (http://members.cardomain.com/bimmerhead)

My 7 is still undergoing development both in the motor and the chassis. The motor is being redone with forged pistons, conn rods, polishing & balancing the crank, 12k rpm valve springs, and a 9 lb. boost Vortech SC & Air/Water intercooler. For the chassis we are having a set of custom made double adjustable ProTrac shocks made to match her coil-overs. This should make her one of the fastest 7 anywhere. (at least until some of the "tuners" get wise):(

The question of wether my car will ever be an "M" car or should carry such a badge is moot.
IMHO, my 7 never was and never will be an "M" car, no matter how she performs.

Cheers

[Dark Helmet]

Originally posted by volfman


Not sure of anything about the 4.6, but I was under the impression that the X5 4.4i had the same engine as a 540i. If the 4.4 liter in the 540 is made to rev, I'm sure the X5 can rev :)


um, no. the M62 is a nice motor with a broad and flexible powerband, but it is NOT a "high-revving" motor by any stretch. you will get the best acceleration by shifting at or before 6-grand... that figure is 7-grand-plus for the real M cars.

even the Manual 540 runs out of steam above 5500 when compared to the M5.

now, if you compare it to an american pushrod job, sure it revs higher... but look at the other medium-displacemnt V8s out there... many have higher RPM torque and HP peaks.

[volfman]

Oh poo, das. I'd still want a 540 over my 328 :)

[Rob Levinson]

Originally posted by Bimmerhead
I don't want to put words in Rob's mouth here.....but he and I agree that without a factory installed "S" type motor and related "M" type driveline and suspension components, our cars should NOT be badged as "M" cars.

I agree completely.

The M badge doesn't make your car better or make you a better person, but it is indicative of an original design intent and level of technology.

You can make a standard BMW faster, better-handling, and better-braking than the M cars... but that's all it is. BMW Motorsport was not involved, and if the VIN does not start with WBS, then the M does not go on the car. Might as well start adding "VTEC" stickers a foot high across the windshield.



Originally posted by Bimmerhead
My 7 is still undergoing development both in the motor and the chassis. The motor is being redone with forged pistons, conn rods, polishing & balancing the crank, 12k rpm valve springs, and a 9 lb. boost Vortech SC & Air/Water intercooler. This should make her one of the fastest 7 anywhere. (at least until some of the "tuners" get wise):(

Nice.

I started on something today also. :D



Originally posted by MDriver315
1) They would have to make it manual, and it isn't.
2) It's too big.
3) It wouldn't handle the way that an M car would.


1) Fixed that.
2) No, it's not.
3) It can be made to without much trouble.

Technically, the suspension bits in the 740i Sport are labelled by BMW as "M Sports Suspension". There's no M on the trunk, but there is some Motorsport tuning.

Perhaps the coolest thing about BMW is that, no matter what size requirements you may have, every single model has the chassis dynamics and tuning capability that have made BMW the sophisticated enthusiast's choice since the beginning.

- Rob
'98 750iL/6
'94 M5T/6
'9X something else

[///MDriver]

BMW won't do it for the same reason Mercedes will. Mercedes AMG has 13(at my guess) models. BMW ///M is more prestigous.

I am sorry. I didn't mean to use the word, "prestigious." What I meant is that, BMW M Cars (like kev said) have manual transmissions, rear wheel drive, and are performance oriented.

AMG cars on the other hand, are all automatic, and are not specifically rear wheel drive. They are, however, somewhat performance oriented. In a recent Motor Trend article, BMW M vs. Mercedes AMG. BMW won each showdown (M roadster vs. SLK AMG - M3 convertible vs. CLK 55AMG Convertible - and X5 4.6is vs. ML55 AMG ( I still am not sure why they did the 4.6 is?)). The Mercedes were more expensive in each comparison as well.

M3 vs. CLK:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0204_convert/index.html

X5 vs. ML55:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/suv/112_0204_x5/index2.html

M Roadster vs. SLK32:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/112_0204_roadster/index.html

I apologize for calling BMW more prestigious, but I do think more highly of an M model as opposed to an AMG model! Although, I may be slightly biased:D

see the sig

[umnitza]

um...who was it that mentioned that M cars don't come with Autos?

E36 M3s did
E46 M3s do (SMG, blah, still an auto)

[Dark Helmet]

IIRC that is the ONLY exception, and it came from the same period where marketing dreamed up teh 2.5L "323" and Z3 "2.3"

[volfman]

Actually SMG isn't technically an automatic. It is a manual transmission, you know. The clutch is just operated by the computer :)

There is no loss of power due to a torque convertor as with typical automatic transmissions.

[///MDriver]

I read it somewhere, and I am now looking for who said that M cars are not autos. Give me a minute.

[///MDriver]

um...who was it that mentioned that M cars don't come with Autos?

"The X5 4.6is is the only BMW product in our broad test not to wear an official M badge; according to BMW spokesperson Rob Mitchell, a prerequisite for the logo is a high-revving engine and a manual transmission. Though the 4.6is technically has neither, make no mistake: The DNA is there." - Motor Trend April 2002, page 59.


I forgot to mention that also in that test was an "M5 vs. E55 AMG" test as well. Yup, you guessed it, the M5 won:alright :buttrock

[volfman]

I think maybe the option of a manual transmission is one of the features of all M cars.

[FrankW]

Originally posted by umnitza
um...who was it that mentioned that M cars don't come with Autos?

E36 M3s did
E46 M3s do (SMG, blah, still an auto)

i agree with this dude :wave:

not the smg part...

[///MDriver]

Though I hate to admit it, SMGII is a manual transmission.

[Flying Dutchman]

Closest thing may have been the 745 twin turbo of years ago.

Anyone else ever heard of this model ? A friend of mine (a German doctor) said he used to own one and that it was a beast.

[FrankW]

Originally posted by Flying Dutchman
Closest thing may have been the 745 twin turbo of years ago.

Anyone else ever heard of this model ? A friend of mine (a German doctor) said he used to own one and that it was a beast.

never heard of it:dunno

[E36M3]

could have swore that M7's were produced in Germany. Just not exported over here.

[Dark Helmet]

nope, no M7, anywhere, ever.

[umnitza]

sorry, when one foot doesn't have to depress a clutch, not a manual, no matter the technical explanation:)

[Bimmerhead]

Originally posted by Flying Dutchman
Closest thing may have been the 745 twin turbo of years ago.

Anyone else ever heard of this model ? A friend of mine (a German doctor) said he used to own one and that it was a beast.

Yes there was a 745 Turbo. It was a 3.5 L motor with a turbo and was available with a manual transmission. The chassis was the E23 (like Nanny's) and the 745 nomenclature was the factory's idea. 745 represented the turbo's equivalent in a normally aspirated motor.
Very few 745s came to the US.
If my memory is working right, Ray Korman or Korman Motors/Korman Racing had his 745t for sale on Ebay @ 18 months ago.

Cheers

[Rob Levinson]

Originally posted by Bimmerhead
Yes there was a 745 Turbo. It was a 3.5 L motor with a turbo and was available with a manual transmission.

Unfortunately, the opposite is true - the 745 only came with the automatic transmission.

The design was so simple (as is the M30 engine itself, simple and robust, very strong) that it was an easy replication for many tuners including Callaway... yes, Callaway of the big GM V8 fame these days.

Callaway turbocharged the M30 in the E28 535i with excellent results, actually better than the troublesome factory 745 setup. I know a bit about these cars, I had one (click here for details) (http://www.robertlevinson.com/535i_Turbo/). Engine bay of the Callaway 535i Turbo (and factory 745s) looked like this:

http://www.robertlevinson.com/535i_Turbo/Levinson/535iTurboJmotor.jpg



Originally posted by Bimmerhead
If my memory is working right, Ray Korman or Korman Motors/Korman Racing had his 745t for sale on Ebay @ 18 months ago.

That car was bought by Jan Nelson (proud owner of a couple of other 745s) and was subsequently resold (and resides in MA now). Technically, that car was not a real 745, but rather a 735 with custom turbo parts, a bit more sophisticated than the 535i Turbo that I had. Very nice machine.

- Rob

[///MDriver]

sorry, when one foot doesn't have to depress a clutch, not a manual, no matter the technical explanation
I would agree, however, it is a manual transmission, no torque converter. I am opposed to SMG in every way, but it is not an automatic. It is a manual controlled by a computer.

[Rob Levinson]

Originally posted by MDriver315
I would agree, however, it is a manual transmission, no torque converter. I am opposed to SMG in every way, but it is not an automatic. It is a manual controlled by a computer.

That's simple semantics.

There have been hydraulically-controlled manuals (Corvette 4+3, as an example) that have internals like an automatic, but with a foot-operated clutch. I'd consider that a manual.

SMG is neither a manual nor a conventional automatic... but when it is shifting automatically, I am reminded of the old expression, "If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it is probably a duck."

Not to make the impressive technology less than it is, but if there is a fundamental difference between how SMG works and how Steptronic works in regards to driver input, not the internal workings of the transmission, then I have yet to see it. Nobody questions that Steptronic is an automatic, do they?

I am not giving SMG drivers any flack here, but the insistence that it is a manual is simply vanity. You don't want to work a clutch and are happy to let the car shift for you, that's fine. But that is what it is, nothing else.

- Rob

[///MDriver]

Wow. That is one of the best summaries of SMG vs. Manual that I have read. Nicely said.