View Full Version : Why the "new" hoods?
I've noticed recently that the newer lineup of BMW models no longer carry the traditional "reverse-opening" hood. I wonder why?
It is so much more convenient when working in the engine bay when the hood is out of the way. Are BMW engineers losing focus with the mechanics / owners that will be servicing their cars? I've came to the conclusion that BMW's are more DIY friendly than American or Japanese cars. I just hope it continues to stay that way.
Has anyone else noticed anything else that's affected the maintainability with the current renditions?
e39dream
07-04-2006, 02:17 AM
umm guy- they lost the flip forward hood nearly a decade ago on the 5 series. I have never had any problem with the e39s "awkward" hood opening:)
Dang. I gotta get with the program. I guess I just have a deep appreciation for the older hoods and the more aggressive stance it gives. Or maybe it's because all the Bimmer's I have owned so far have that type hood.
I'm diggin' that avatar.
nightkrawler
07-04-2006, 07:54 AM
working for a bmw dealership i stock in the new cars as soon as they come off the truck and i must say that im dismayed by the design of some of the new models. imo they are starting to lose the classic bmw look. especially the front end, the round headlights, 2 grills, and a roundel above is classic and unfortunately some models dont even look like bmws anymore. im sure this will be debated but imho the new 7 is one of the ugliest cars they have yet to make, as is the z4, too many sharp lines etc. the tail lights on the e90s have that white plastic piece on the bottom part of it and looks totally out of place, looks like it should be peeled off. the e38 is a beautiful car and i think it has it all over the new 7, least in looks wise. but, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and whatever sells i guess...:(
Rob Levinson
07-04-2006, 10:07 AM
I've noticed recently that the newer lineup of BMW models no longer carry the traditional "reverse-opening" hood. I wonder why?
Ummm... in 1989, 1982-1988 E28 owners were wondering the opposite thing - why do the newer models have that newfangled "reverse-opening" hood when our fivers have front-openers? :D
As for "recenty" noticing... all 3-series since 1992, all 5-series since 1996, all 7-series since 1994.
Front-hinged and back-hinged hoods both have advantages and disadvantes, and neither one is necessarily more "traditional" than the other. If all BMW hoods were "traditional",they'd be opening from the front or even the side.
328:
http://www.materialise.com/magics-rp/Images/Bild1_328.jpghttp://www.materialise.com/magics-rp/Images/Bild2_328_MOTOR.jpg
Isetta:
http://www.premiumclassixxs.de/images/modelle/isetta_post/kleine_pics/bmw_isetta_250_seite_motor_.jpg
- Rob
Rob Levinson
07-04-2006, 10:12 AM
working for a bmw dealership i stock in the new cars as soon as they come off the truck and i must say that im dismayed by the design of some of the new models. imo they are starting to lose the classic bmw look. especially the front end, the round headlights, 2 grills, and a roundel above is classic and unfortunately some models dont even look like bmws anymore. im sure this will be debated but imho the new 7 is one of the ugliest cars they have yet to make, as is the z4, too many sharp lines etc. the tail lights on the e90s have that white plastic piece on the bottom part of it and looks totally out of place, looks like it should be peeled off. the e38 is a beautiful car and i think it has it all over the new 7, least in looks wise. but, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and whatever sells i guess...:(
:lol Every time a new generation of BMWs comes out, people that have the last model say the exact same thing. E46 owners don't like the look of the E90, E36 owners dislke the E46, E30 owners think they started the whole damn thing, and 2002 owners hate everyone.
It would be funny if it weren't so predictable. I can't wait for E90 owners to complain about the "non-traditional" E115 3-series in six years.
Of course, to hardcore BMW traditionalists, any BMW without a propeller or with more than two wheels is an abomination.
Back:
http://www.robertlevinson.com/lol/moto2.jpg
Front:
http://www.robertlevinson.com/lol/moto1.jpg
Neurotictim
07-04-2006, 10:15 AM
Eh, I always thought the reverse-opening hood would make any in-depth maintenance harder - seems like a b***h to get off.
323I Junkie
07-04-2006, 10:29 AM
I thought it was a safety thing ...and it seems smart to me..screw the ne ones...Im going even older
e39dream
07-04-2006, 11:51 AM
I will admit that the e34's look awesome in group shots with the hoods flipped. Once I get my e39 situated I'll have the best of both worlds.
thejlevie
07-04-2006, 01:03 PM
Hmm, I always found the front-flip hood to be more of a pain. A good bit of routine work involves access to the front of the engine and the front-flip hood is most certainly in the way of that.
killcrap
07-04-2006, 03:01 PM
there is a special tool avaiable for the hood shocks, you just remove shocks, and place it in a extender, and then reattch it to the hood, and you have plenty of space to work in.
jfranke
07-04-2006, 03:21 PM
I like the look of the front flipping hood but it has been in the way a few times; i had to change the timing belt in my old e30 and I actually just removed the hood because it was IN THE WAY! But then it could be because I'm used to working with the hood the other way.
there is a special tool avaiable for the hood shocks, you just remove shocks, and place it in a extender, and then reattch it to the hood, and you have plenty of space to work in.
I like that.
I'm enjoying seeing all the pro's and con's of each design.
tjn182
07-05-2006, 12:42 AM
I've noticed recently that the newer lineup of BMW models no longer carry the traditional "reverse-opening" hood. I wonder why?
It is so much more convenient when working in the engine bay when the hood is out of the way. Are BMW engineers losing focus with the mechanics / owners that will be servicing their cars? I've came to the conclusion that BMW's are more DIY friendly than American or Japanese cars. I just hope it continues to stay that way.
Has anyone else noticed anything else that's affected the maintainability with the current renditions?
How old is new?
The e28s opened normally... along with all 5ers from then on...
Let's go with anything newer than 1995 since anything past that would be considered a "new" car to me. hehehe.
Boondoggie
07-05-2006, 08:51 AM
Volvo's hoods have/had a catch that allowed you to open the hood all the way to 90 degrees. Quite handy when you were doing a big job.
VentoGT
07-05-2006, 04:18 PM
How old is new?
The e28s opened normally... along with all 5ers from then on...
I beg to differ--my e34, like all e34s, opens to the front, not 'normally'.
Goat128
07-05-2006, 04:34 PM
i think they did it to reduce costs on the e39 and kept doing it since. its like the nose is one peice with the hood.. maybe that is supposed to look better
franka
07-05-2006, 04:37 PM
My girlfriend/wife has always enjoyed the hood of our BMWs regardless of which way they hinged.
Brewtech
07-05-2006, 04:45 PM
My girlfriend/wife has always enjoyed the hood of our BMWs regardless of which way they hinged.
amen to that. and thats important
DarthMaul
07-05-2006, 04:59 PM
Having driven around twice with my hood open on my E34 I was appreciative that its hinges were on the front so it didn't fly open and smack my windshield....
Then again...if the hinges were on the "normal" side (near the windshield) then I might not have driven around with the hood open since I would notice it right away.
Each configuration has its advantages...it depends on what part of the engine you are working on. For headlights...the "normal" config. is best.
franka
07-05-2006, 05:08 PM
My 1981 528i, 5 spd, hinged at the front. I liked that. I loved that car, drove it for many years, had some of the best times of my life with it.
Anyone know what "E" number that 1981 Fiver was?
323I Junkie
07-06-2006, 09:11 AM
teh 'ETA" fuel economy model
franka
07-06-2006, 09:33 AM
teh 'ETA" fuel economy model
My 528i, 1981 was a big six gasoline performance model (at the time) with fuel injection. Not the ETA version that came on a later model series.
From another post I found out that it was an E12 model/chassis.
BMRSEB
07-06-2006, 09:38 AM
Volvo's hoods have/had a catch that allowed you to open the hood all the way to 90 degrees. Quite handy when you were doing a big job.
Mercedes had that too. Not sure about the newer ones though.. :)
Turbofans
07-06-2006, 10:00 AM
BMW-Rolls Royce BR715 turbofan.
http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/3570/br715big1ux.gif
Hey Rob, the new clutch is working great!
323I Junkie
07-06-2006, 01:07 PM
My 528i, 1981 was a big six gasoline performance model (at the time) with fuel injection. Not the ETA version that came on a later model series.
From another post I found out that it was an E12 model/chassis.
a 2.8? I never heard of an injected m30 2.8 outside of the Bavaria, befor ethat, they werer carbed
flipwils11
07-06-2006, 01:23 PM
a 2.8? I never heard of an injected m30 2.8 outside of the Bavaria, befor ethat, they werer carbed
Ummmmmm ......... yeah. I guess it just seems like such common knowledge since I'm an E12 junkie. Yes, the US-spec E12 528i's used l-jet electronic fuel injection on a 2.8 liter M30 motor. The 79's had a 4spd, the '80 and '81 models had lighter glass, doors, and some other stuff to reduce weight as well as a 5spd.
Back to the hood topic, I think it is weirder still that the E12 started with a reverse opening (ahem.... NORMAL hood! :D ) then the E28 went to American style opening, then the E34 went back to normal, then E39 onward has been back to the American style. I prefer the reverse opening hood for the cool factor and aesthetic reasons. For working on cars, I don't think it is as convenient as the American style because you have no access to anything in the front of the engine bay since the hood is in the way. I've worked on my E12 enough (engine rebuild, etc, etc) to have experienced this form over function thing many times (for instance you have to unhinge the hood on an E12 to remove the radiator, fun, fun).
Here's a great picture I took of my E34 M5 3.8 and my E12 M535i in the garage together.
http://www.e12m535i.com/E34_M5/images/July_24_2005_Ms_2.JPG
franka
07-06-2006, 01:46 PM
a 2.8? I never heard of an injected m30 2.8 outside of the Bavaria, befor ethat, they werer carbed
It's true. Fuel injected, gasoline "big" six, with 5 sp and leather interior. I should know I drove it for years.
323I Junkie
07-06-2006, 02:33 PM
cool....:D
I want a bavaria :confused
Goat128
07-06-2006, 05:39 PM
Here's a great picture I took of my E34 M5 3.8 and my E12 M535i in the garage together.
That e12 is pure sechs.
Dark Helmet
07-06-2006, 05:50 PM
I love how the "traditionalists" (not unique to this thread, I've spoken with others) really don't like the conventionally hinged hoods because of "tradition" or something.
(almost always when conversing re: E34s and E39s....
yet, which direction does the E28 hood open...
I just toss them my keys and laugh... the E34 is the "abomination" if there is one. :D:D:D
VentoGT
07-06-2006, 05:52 PM
Awesome pic--do you have any more? Love the 2 M cars next to each other...
Dark Helmet
07-06-2006, 07:04 PM
Ummmmmm ......... yeah. I guess it just seems like such common knowledge since I'm an E12 junkie. Yes, the US-spec E12 528i's used l-jet electronic fuel injection on a 2.8 liter M30 motor. The 79's had a 4spd, the '80 and '81 models had lighter glass, doors, and some other stuff to reduce weight as well as a 5spd.
Back to the hood topic, I think it is weirder still that the E12 started with a reverse opening (ahem.... NORMAL hood! :D ) then the E28 went to American style opening, then the E34 went back to normal, then E39 onward has been back to the American style. I prefer the reverse opening hood for the cool factor and aesthetic reasons. For working on cars, I don't think it is as convenient as the American style because you have no access to anything in the front of the engine bay since the hood is in the way. I've worked on my E12 enough (engine rebuild, etc, etc) to have experienced this form over function thing many times (for instance you have to unhinge the hood on an E12 to remove the radiator, fun, fun).
Here's a great picture I took of my E34 M5 3.8 and my E12 M535i in the garage together.
http://www.e12m535i.com/E34_M5/images/July_24_2005_Ms_2.JPG
you've got it all wrong... :D:D:D:D
flipwils11
07-07-2006, 08:25 AM
you've got it all wrong... :D:D:D:D
Huh? :confused
flipwils11
07-07-2006, 08:26 AM
Awesome pic--do you have any more? Love the 2 M cars next to each other...
There are a ton of pictures of the E12 and E34 on my website. The
E12 M535i section has detail about my restoration so far of the car
and the E34 section has a lot of detail as well.
BMW 5 SERIES
07-07-2006, 08:44 AM
What about safety reasons?
I mean its more safe for the driver if the hood opens like the E34s way since in case the hood pops when you drive at a high speed it cant go all the way up so the driver will maintain vision of the road.
Rob Levinson
07-07-2006, 09:36 AM
What about safety reasons?
I mean its more safe for the driver if the hood opens like the E34s way since in case the hood pops when you drive at a high speed it cant go all the way up so the driver will maintain vision of the road.
Valid but almost statistically insignificant.
- Rob
franka
07-07-2006, 09:40 AM
Valid but almost statistically insignificant.
- Rob
OK Rob. Why did BMW do it that way if not for safety?
I had my E12 hood open once while driving. No biggy, just stop and close it.
Rob Levinson
07-07-2006, 09:47 AM
OK Rob. Why did BMW do it that way if not for safety?
It's obviously not for any specific reason at all, the switch back-and-forth nature of the design implementation makes that crystal clear.
All front-opening hoods have a secondary safety latch. A hood "blowing open" and flipping over the car is extremely rare as it is extremely difficult to actually have happen. Heck, most of the taxis in NYC have their hoods cracked open in the mistaken belief that it aids cooling.
I had my E12 hood open once while driving. No biggy, just stop and close it.
Weren't you afraid if you braked really hard that it would flip open? :D
- Rob
BMW 5 SERIES
07-07-2006, 09:56 AM
All front-opening hoods have a secondary safety latch.
Thats true my E28 has one.
franka
07-07-2006, 10:03 AM
Rob, are you saying BMW did it both ways on a whim? You said "obviously not for any reason at all".
Do you believe the engineers at BMW did not have a valid reason for doing what they did?
unesential
07-07-2006, 10:20 AM
Done for safety. The same reason that the secondary catch is required by law on a front opening hood.
Personally I have always found Front hinged hood to be neat, as for maintenance I prefer rear hinged. With that said I would rather not have the hood open as you cannot drive like that in either form.
franka
07-07-2006, 10:31 AM
I had an E12 with front hinged hood. It opened with basically two movements. The front came forward and up then the rear pivoted up to the open position.
If it comes open when driving it only moves thru the first movement. That raises the front about 8" up and about 4" forward. It's been a long time so I may be off on the inches by 2" either way. The air flowing over the hood keeps the rear from pivoting up. The rear actually floats a bit going up and down from either side of being horizontal.
One can drive that way though it is very distracting. An additional advantage is there is no damage done. Just stop sanely and close the hood.
Rob Levinson
07-07-2006, 10:41 AM
Rob, are you saying BMW did it both ways on a whim? You said "obviously not for any reason at all".
Do you believe the engineers at BMW did not have a valid reason for doing what they did?
A "valid reason" remains valid over time, or at least only changes when there are other factors.
Let's examine the timeline:
1975-1981 E12 - FRONT
1982-1988 E28 - REAR
1989-1995 E34 - FRONT
1996-2003 E39 - REAR
2004 - now E60 - REAR
Note that E12 and E28 are basically the exact same chassis - literally, body panels and doors are interchangeable. Same chassis, yet the change in hood hinge.
With that kind of flip-flopping, no correlation to chassis design, no NHTSA laws dictating the design, and obviously not a "safety" issue as you don't add safety and then remove it and then add it and then remove it for any specific reason. My conjecture is that it was a number of minor factors, probably including styling, market preference, manufacturing cost, perceived safety, and many others... none of them overriding continuosly. Without any good enough reason to be consistent, one could consider that the choice is up to the whimsy of the last designer who makes the actual decision.
- Rob
franka
07-07-2006, 10:48 AM
A "valid reason" remains valid over time, or at least only changes when there are other factors.
Let's examine the timeline:
1975-1981 E12 - FRONT
1982-1988 E28 - REAR
1989-1995 E34 - FRONT
1996-2003 E39 - REAR
2004 - now E60 - REAR
Note that E12 and E28 are basically the exact same chassis - literally, body panels and doors are interchangeable. Same chassis, yet the change in hood hinge.
With that kind of flip-flopping, no correlation to chassis design, no NHTSA laws dictating the design, and obviously not a "safety" issue as you don't add safety and then remove it and then add it and then remove it for any specific reason. My conjecture is that it was a number of minor factors, probably including styling, market preference, manufacturing cost, perceived safety, and many others... none of them overriding continuosly. Without any good enough reason to be consistent, one could consider that the choice is up to the whimsy of the last designer who makes the actual decision.
- Rob
E12 and E28 are not the same chassis by a long shot.
The rest of above is conjecture as you correctly state.
Rob Levinson
07-07-2006, 11:01 AM
E12 and E28 are not the same chassis by a long shot.
Of course they are. Aside from the updated rear suspension engine updates, and slight interior trim differences, they're the same car.
You don't have interchangeable body panels on "different" cars.
The E24 6-series, which is basically the coupe version of the 5-series during the years of 1977-1989, did not even get a chassis change designation. Early E24 has E12 suspension parts, later E24 has E28 suspension parts. Aside from that, it's all trim and motor updates.
The rest of above is conjecture as you correctly state.
Exactly. Which is why this thread is comical, and the seriousness is even funnier! :D
- Rob
franka
07-07-2006, 11:25 AM
Of course they are. Aside from the updated rear suspension engine updates, and slight interior trim differences, they're the same car.
You don't have interchangeable body panels on "different" cars.
The E24 6-series, which is basically the coupe version of the 5-series during the years of 1977-1989, did not even get a chassis change designation. Early E24 has E12 suspension parts, later E24 has E28 suspension parts. Aside from that, it's all trim and motor updates.
I thought we were discussing the E12 and the E28.
Maybe some others care to weigh in on whether 12 and 28 are same chassis?
Rob Levinson
07-07-2006, 11:39 AM
I thought we were discussing the E12 and the E28.
We are. I was using the E24 as the cross-reference point, thought that was clear.
Maybe some others care to weigh in on whether 12 and 28 are same chassis?
What are you hoping - someone will say the doors and fenders do not swap? :lol
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