Bad Day: Spun and Nailed a Curb. Hard. - Advice Needed - Thx

[RotaryBzzz]

*sigh* :(

Hi Forum
Need some car repair advice. I'm not the most knowlegable on body/accident repair so any help is appreciated.

> Long story short: Trying to avoid an asshat, I overcooked a 65 degree turn, span 180 and nailed a 5" curb on the other side of the road on my passenger side. Pro: No one else hit/ involved.
> No paint/body damage (thank god!) but definite rear suspension damage with a possible tweak to the front passenger tie rods (but possibly alignable? = disregard?).
>I think I was doing ~35mph when I contacted the curb and I THINK it was a pretty straight face-to-face hit between the curb & wheel(s). The rear passenger wheel took the brunt of the hit (broke rim lip off) as the front passenger wheel has medium curbing only.

Right now the most significant damage is the rear passenger wheel is mondo positive cambered and I think I broke the halfaxle as well. Initially, after changing to my spare (old wheel came off easy btw), I was able to transmit drive power (with a horrible metal on metal sound) that lasted 1/4 mile. After that, whatever remaining splines the halfaxle/rear diff possessed finally broke compeletely. I had no power after that. Looking at the rear diff carrier, I notice it's ~1" inches off center now.

This is how the car drove in that immediate 1/4 mile:

-No check lights
-Brakes function/grab as before
-Steering seems relatively normal: no hard pulling left or right.

My car's rear axle/wheel looks like this

UPDATE: It appears the LCA and outboard CV joint are the major players so far. The halfaxle is completely detached at the outboard CV joint. See below for more pics

<img src="http://host.jwcinc.net/4499990/bmwrepair/profile1.jpg" border="0" />
<img src="http://host.jwcinc.net/4499990/bmwrepair/profile2.jpg" border="0" />
<img src="http://host.jwcinc.net/4499990/bmwrepair/centerrear.jpg" border="0" />
<img src="http://host.jwcinc.net/4499990/bmwrepair/rearlcaandhalfaxle.jpg" border="0" />
<img src="http://host.jwcinc.net/4499990/bmwrepair/reardiffperspective.jpg" border="0" />

I checked my Bentley (and read thru other threads) & it seems these are the possible broken pieces.

-final drive carrier (bent?)
-rear diff/final drive
-driveshaft
-halfaxle
-passenger rear wheel bearings
-right side upper rear control arm (UCA)
-right-side lower rear control arm (LCA)
-M/// trailing arm

Am I missing anything?
What are used street prices on these parts?
How many hours am I looking at for the stuff I 'can' DIY?

So sad. In 14 years of driving I've never had 1 accident or ticket.
TIA


Cliff Notes:
Span and hit a curb ~35mph
Cracked rear passenger rim
Rear passenger wheel has major positive camber
Drove 1/4 mile w/ metal-on-metal. Then no drive-power
Looking for insight on what's broken
Looking for insight on street SoCali prices

TIA

[LWRNCE]

man... Thats major... Good luck with everything.

[SQ Bimmer]

Hmm... If it's just a bent lower control arm and a bent wheel, I might be able to help you out as I've got a spare LCA... Lemme know. Got any pics of the suspension?

[cajunairman]

Make sure you check the mounting point at the front of the LCR. I just finished rewelding mine up from the previous owner's unfortunate adventures. Whatever he did tore 2 of the three mounting bungs out of the floor. Don't be too bummed. I think the law of averages is an accident every 12 years. No-one hurt so that is a good thing.

[jayhudson]

Rear = probably a bent LCA for sure. Could be CV joint instead of bent halfshaft. Not sure if you can replace only the CV joint. The diff will not move side-to-side unless the subframe is bent or torn loose from the chassis. Or, the diff is torn loose from the subframe.

There are many other possible problems. Trailing arm/RTAB mount, upper control arm, rear hub/ball joint and/or sway bar.

Front = if you tie rod is bent, there's a possibility that the steering knuckle/hub assy is also bent. Strut could be bent. Lower control arm/ball joints. Less likely is the front cross member and/or shock tower.

You need to get under there and look around. If you replace the obvious stuff and the car won't align properly, you'll have to get a professional involved. Sometimes they just start throwing parts at it until they get it right. Ask me how I know.

Be hopeful that the front isn't too messed up.

Good luck and if you need a rear LCA, I have one FS. $50 shipped to you.

Jay

[themadhatter]

can you do me a favor (if possible), snap some pics of the car on a lift so we can see the damage. I ask cause it'll help the rest of the forum in the future with such instances.

best of luck with the repairs.

[RotaryBzzz]

More pics of the damage: Rear Diff / Carrier perspective:

Good news is that the rear passenger shock seems undamaged in the pic. It doesn't seem to have shifted. Also, from what I can detect, the RTAB console / bolts did not rip away from the chassis. You can still see my alignment marks & passener side trailing arm seems relatively centered.

Any more thoughts?

<img src="http://host.jwcinc.net/4499990/bmwrepair/lcaandhalfaxle2.jpg" border="0" />
<img src="http://host.jwcinc.net/4499990/bmwrepair/rearpassinnercvjoint.jpg" border="0" />
<img src="http://host.jwcinc.net/4499990/bmwrepair/rearshock.jpg" border="0" />
<img src="http://host.jwcinc.net/4499990/bmwrepair/rtab1.jpg" border="0" />

[RotaryBzzz]

Pics of the diff carrier mounts to the subframe and the inboard CV joint - sorry they're not more enlightening.

Good news is that the diff does NOT appear to be leaking.

<img src="http://host.jwcinc.net/4499990/bmwrepair/leftdiffcarriermount.jpg" border="0" />
<img src="http://host.jwcinc.net/4499990/bmwrepair/leftdiffcarriermountcloseup.jpg" border="0" />
<img src="http://host.jwcinc.net/4499990/bmwrepair/rearpassinnercvjoint.jpg" border="0" />

[RotaryBzzz]

Better news on the front suspension. Do the tie-rods and front LCA look unbent to you? They do to me.....

I know i know....not the greatest photo's.....

Thanks for everyone's insights!

<img src="http://host.jwcinc.net/4499990/bmwrepair/frontlowercontrol.jpg" border="0" />
<img src="http://host.jwcinc.net/4499990/bmwrepair/frontlowercontrol2.jpg" border="0" />
<img src="http://host.jwcinc.net/4499990/bmwrepair/frontlowercontrol3.jpg" border="0" />
<img src="http://host.jwcinc.net/4499990/bmwrepair/fronttierods.jpg" border="0" />

[RotaryBzzz]

Perspective on the driver-side LCA & etc. LCA seems unbent.

<img src="http://host.jwcinc.net/4499990/bmwrepair/reardriverside.jpg" border="0" />

[jayhudson]

The right LCA is bent like a pretzel. They're designed to do that. The problem with the halfshaft seems to be at the outer end. Not sure what that'll take. I've never had one out. The bearing/joint at the outer end may be replaceable or you may have to replace the halfshaft. You could also have a problem with the wheel hub assy and/or ball joint.

I'd be surprised if there was a problem with the diff housing or subframe. But it's hard to tell from the pics.

Jay

[RotaryBzzz]

The right LCA is bent like a pretzel. They're designed to do that. The problem with the halfshaft seems to be at the outer end. Not sure what that'll take. I've never had one out. The bearing/joint at the outer end may be replaceable or you may have to replace the halfshaft. You could also have a problem with the wheel hub assy and/or ball joint.

I'd be surprised if there was a problem with the diff housing or subframe. But it's hard to tell from the pics.

Jay

Thanks for the reply.
It seems like the order of damage was


1) "Uh oh"........BAM!
2) LCA deforming...deforming...deforming
then
3) Outboard CV Joint pressurized to failure.

I'd almost say the CV joint break was a good thing : it removed the buildup of pressure off the Diff. (???)

[JETninja]

Time for some new Camber Arms from TMS. (I like mine..cool looking too!) Pick up a used Axle here or someplace like Motorsports Recycling. (I have a spare pair but want to keep for just in case possibilities) I've replaced them, not very difficult at all. You can pick up new Boot kits, they come with clamps and grease. I rebuilt a set last year...messy but good. Not able to just replace the CV's that I know of.

I'd remove the rear diff cover (would have to lower it) and take a good look...that a lot of side load for it too take. And since its a 95 (stock 3.15? read the link in my siggy) might be good to open anyways.....

[SQ Bimmer]

I've got a spare LCA if you want to go that route - although if you plan to keep and track the car at all, then you should get the TMS arms to give yourself some more camber flexibility.

[RotaryBzzz]

I've got a spare LCA if you want to go that route - although if you plan to keep and track the car at all, then you should get the TMS arms to give yourself some more camber flexibility.

Are the factory LCA's solid or hollow tubes?

[jayhudson]

Are the factory LCA's solid or hollow tubes?

Rear LCAs are stamped sheet metal. Sometimes referred to as wishbones. They're fairly fragile and are designed to bend in an impact. The front LCAs are solid.

Jay

[SQ Bimmer]

Neither - they are exactly like your bent one, and I just realized, I don't have them anymore. And FYI, all E36 cars (except the ti) share the same LCAs, even between m3s.

[Ahmet]

Neither - they are exactly like your bent one, and I just realized, I don't have them anymore. And FYI, all E36 cars (except the ti) share the same LCAs, even between m3s.

The e36s I've track prepped had different rear lower control arms between regular 3 series and the M cars from what I recall...
Ahmet

[artikxscout]

wow... this about the 6th spun out thread i've seen. me including one of them... is it just me or does the back end just break out way too fast? can you counter steer to stop the problem?

[Jim Bassett]

You'll probably not like this answer, but it's most likely you :)

Be smoother on throttle application at corner exit (funny how "track skills" are applicable to the street :) ).

Also, head out to a GGC Car Control Clinic and/or auto-x. Learn about your car's dynamics in a safe, controlled environment. And chances are you'll have a ton of fun, too (I started out auto-crossing in '96, and now look - I own a race car and spend all my free time & money at the track :) )

http://www.ggcbmwcca.org/ - there's an autox on July 29 and a CCC on Aug 6 (prerequisite for the Aug Thunderhill Driving School).

Cheers,
Jim

[cajunairman]

The e36s I've track prepped had different rear lower control arms between regular 3 series and the M cars from what I recall...
Ahmet

The Rear Trailing Arms, or RTA's, are different between the two. The part he hammered in the accident are the same as the M3's. I guess it's referred to as the Lower control or camber arm?

Jeff

[RotaryBzzz]

The e36s I've track prepped had different rear lower control arms between regular 3 series and the M cars from what I recall...
Ahmet

RE: LCA (lower control arm) - I've been checking part numbers off ETK and they seem to be the same for all the e36's 325is....328....even E46 323i

p/n:
33321092237

Does the difference lie in the "stamped alignment covering" perhaps?

[SQ Bimmer]

The RTAs are different, but the LCAs are the same. I just said that above so that the OP has a bit more flexibility in sourcing a new LCA (IE doesn't need to find a spare from an m3, but lots of spares available from non-M cars). Or, you could take up the offer above if you are in a time crunch.

[jayhudson]

Like I said previously, I have one available. Off my 97 M3. Shipped to you for $50.

Jay


RE: LCA (lower control arm) - I've been checking part numbers off ETK and they seem to be the same for all the e36's 325is....328....even E46 323i

p/n:
33321092237

Does the difference lie in the "stamped alignment covering" perhaps?

[M3 Pete]

You'll probably not like this answer, but it's most likely you :)

Be smoother on throttle application at corner exit (funny how "track skills" are applicable to the street :) ).

Also, when in a corner and applying throttle, don't suddenly lift off the throttle, as that can cause engine braking while unweighting the rear wheels, causing the back end to come around. I know because of an idiot move I did several years ago, to avoid a car that was turning into my lane. Fortunately I avoided hitting anything and now I don't try to drive so close to the limit on the street, always a bad idea.

[RotaryBzzz]

Also, when in a corner and applying throttle, don't suddenly lift off the throttle, as that can cause engine braking while unweighting the rear wheels, causing the back end to come around. I know because of an idiot move I did several years ago, to avoid a car that was turning into my lane. Fortunately I avoided hitting anything and now I don't try to drive so close to the limit on the street, always a bad idea.

Yeah. I remember my first thoughts when I knew I was losing it:
"God i hope there's no one around me". I kinda powered off (and went full into the spin) b/k I knew in another 200 ft, I'd be on the actual freeway.

That would've been bad.

[RotaryBzzz]

After reviewing some more pics, here's another shot of the rear diff.
If the diff carrier didn't move, is that a better indicator of less-likely bent/torn subframe?

<img src="http://host.jwcinc.net/4499990/bmwrepair/rear%20diff%20carrier1.jpg" border="0" />
<img src="http://host.jwcinc.net/4499990/bmwrepair/reardiffperspective.jpg" border="0" />

[old skool]

I think it is unlikely that your diff carrier or rear subframe were damaged.

However, I would very seriously recommend that you take the car to a competent body shop for an estimate. they have experience with these things and can check/measure your suspension and should be able to give you a good diagnosis. It could save you a ton of $$ in the long run.

[RotaryBzzz]

First of all, I want to thank everyone who offered their expertise in this thread. It is very much appreciated and I can't emphasize this enough.....especially to the insights offered by JayHudson - bf.com moderator extrodinaire.

:smiliecap :smiliecap :smiliecap

Here's a datapoint list of things as they turned out:

Driving the car, I don't notice any vibration in the steering wheel, bearing noise or metalic "clunking" going over bumps. I haven't had it up to speed yet (>40mph) due to the messed up alignment but so far, so good.

REAR, Passenger Side

> Lower Control Arm : LCA - Bent like a pretzel - replaced w/ used OE
> Axle & CV Joints - Halfshaft not sheared in two as originally thought - outer CV joint blown but not detached. Replaced w/ used 27mm solid m3 axle.
[M3 axles are either 27mm solid or 38mm hollow]

Luckily, (so far) I don't have any rear lower knuckle damage / wheel bearing issues. Or at least the shop that I used ($75 bucks R&R!) didn't see other issues down there. My RTA seemed fine with RTAB mounting console unripped / intact.

FRONT, Passenger Side

> Outer Tie Rod End [aka Ball Joint] undamaged
> Inner Tie Rod Joint has play - will replace the whole tie rod assembly with a lemfoerer unit sourced from BMA Parts for $75.42.
Will replace driver side as well for proper consistency.

Still to do

Install tie-rod assemblies
Alignment


Running Total
Rear
Used LCA: $20
Used m3 axle, complete $85
Labor for axle/LCA install: $75
DS1 Motorsport Rim $100
PS2 tire: $190

Front
Tie Rod Assemblies (R&L) & misc parts $200
Tie-rods R&R $75 (Projected)

Alignment: $50
-----------------
$795 + 70 towing fee = $865 projected to date

QUESTIONS:
Any potential problems with the steering rack you think?
How many hours is both tie-rod assemblies you think?

:smiliecap

[jayhudson]

Good for you. As it turns out I'll be doing some similar repair work. You got a good price on the used parts, my halfshaft will cost $140. Good thing I didn't sell you my spare LCA because I'm using it temporarily until I get my new GC LCAs.

Jay